MGSV: The Phantom Pain - New information revealed

Wow enemies react to the rain? That's a fucking awesome detail right there.



Ok, wait. Hold up.

Did you just say that Ground Zeroes is a better game than:

The entire Thief series
The entire Splinter Cell series
The Last of Us
The entire Batman series

Dishonored
MGS1
MGS2
MGS3
MGS4
&
Mark of the Ninja

Because if you did, I think we may have found the world's first scientifically provable wrong opinion.

Those two aren't stealth games, they are action adventure games with optional stealth elements.

Thief II: The Metal Age is the single best Stealth game of all time. Nothing can compete with that game at all, as much as I love MGS Thief II is a proper stealth game and to be honest Ground Zeroes takes a lot of cues from it what with Big Boss being very easy to kill, the sensitivity of the AI, depth of level design, and methods of achieving your objective, maintaining situational awareness at all time, listening to guards for details.

To me MGS and Thief have always been the pinnacle of Stealth and I never really understood the pull of the Splinter Cell games because I never really liked them or Sam as a character(Ironside's voice work is incredible though).
 
We can say that they're different styles of stealth, and GZ is going for realistic stealth instead of "arcady" stealth

Have you played all the Splinter Cell games?
Cuz if you are basing your "arcadey stealth" on the last 2 SC games you need to go back and play them all through.
 
new pic!

B9DzXICCEAAY9TM.jpg:large
 
Those two aren't stealth games, they are action adventure games with optional stealth elements.

Stealth isn't optional in Batman. You absolutely cannot take on a room full of gun-wielding enemies in open combat. Health doesn't regenerate until you take down the last guy, and bullets rip you to shreds even with armour upgrades.

TLOU obviously isn't a pure stealth game, but I honestly think it nails the basics better than Ground Zeroes does. It tells you clearly when you're about to get into trouble, and it gives you a good chance to get out of trouble by having AI that doesn't instantly go into freak out mode the moment one dude spots you. You never have that awful moment when you're sneaking up on an unsuspecting guy and he suddenly pulls a 180 and sends out an alarm before you can reach him, because the designers programmed in a few moments between discovery and alert phase where you can hustle over and take him out quietly. It also blurs the line between stealth and open combat, which I really like. You can alternate between loud and quiet several times within the one skirmish, and it feels fluid and organic.

I get what you guys are saying about Ground Zeroes being a more realistic stealth game for omitting mechanics like that, but I just don't think that's a positive. To me, a good stealth game should encourage you to stay in stealth for as long as possible, which all those mechanics I listed are designed to do. They either give you an advanced warning when you're about to be spotted, or they give you a quick chance to save yourself after you've been spotted. Putting a foot wrong doesn't mean an abrupt gearshift from stealth into third-person shooting, or reloading a checkpoint (or hiding and waiting it out, I guess, but when is that ever fun?).

I definitely agree that Ground Zeroes is the best-playing Metal Gear yet (even if I miss the combat rolls and sit-on-a-dude-and-choke-him-out CQC from 4 :P), I just don't think the basic, nitty-gritty stealth mechanics are up to snuff. And, honestly, it wouldn't take huge, sweeping changes to turn MGSV into the kind of stealth game I'd like. A simple indicator of when you're hidden would be easy to implement. It doesn't have to be an obtrusive HUD element like the camo index; think of Sam Fisher's NVGs lighting up to show that he can't be seen. Enemies having to physically call in alerts on their radios is an obvious one, same with the return of Caution and Clearing phases. Even Reflex Mode isn't beyond fixing. I think that could be a totally respectable mechanic if, say, it only worked for enemies you'd already tagged, and it simply gave you a rough indication of where the dude was rather than snapping your crosshairs onto him.


Oh shit, son. Lemme just rethink my whole entire fucking life over here.
 
It impedes my ability to play the game. I don't like it either. It's like playing with a little kid who might unplug your console for laughs.

It's really not like that.

Having your Mother Base "attacked" may just be an asynchronous thing, where you have a chance to get revenge and acquire extra skill points or whatever. You don't know whether it'll impede you, or whether it'll provide some benefit that wouldn't be available otherwise.
 

I'd like to point out that MGSV does have an enemy attention indicator when an enemy has seen you but not clearly enough to cause an alert. It's similar to the radial meter in the recent Splinter Cell and Far Cry games, but it only appears once an enemy's attention has been drawn, instead of warning you before attention is drawn like those games do. Changing this to be more like those games would require that AI become less reactive (so that there's time for the player to correct themselves before the AI reacts at all), which is something the designers seem staunchly opposed to.

This doesn't address your main point about the need for a preventative solution though. Personally, I think that an advanced version of MGS4's Threat Ring would be a great solution. However, the Threat Ring still doesn't answer the specific question of "can this enemy perceive me?" I'm not sure if having that question be very clear cut, like it was in MGS before 3, is ideal. MGSV is a game of estimation to some extent, and messing with that in any way would change it pretty drastically. Every stealth game where enemy perception fields aren't represented exactly has some amount of this estimation, and I think the estimation itself is a powerful gameplay mechanic.

To address your specific desire for something like Splinter Cell's visibility indicator, visibility in MGSV isn't binary, so such an indicator would be imperfect most of the time just like it is in Splinter Cell, but a "perfectly hidden" state while in certain cover (shadows, foliage) might work with some Splinter Cell light flare-esque indicator. I think if you know the enemy's state, comparing it with your own pretty much always gives you enough information to get a good estimate of visibility. That's why I think a revised Threat Ring could be all MGSV needs.

MGSV actually provides an indirect way of knowing the limitations of enemy perception fields as well, though only hardcore players will make use of it since it involves pure trial and error: the distance meter that appears when an enemy is marked can be used to figure out at what distance an enemy percieves you under various conditions. For example, through experimentation I found that the distance enemies in Ground Zeroes can hear you sprinting from is 15 meters. One can then use this information to more precisely estimate whether they're skirting enemy perception fields correctly. Still, in the end, I agree that MGSV doesn't have enough, and I'm sad that it appears we'll have to make due with trial and error to a certain extent ultimately.

On regenerative versus non-regenerative health, I think the Far Cry games found a really good balance that MGSV could learn from, if not just copy. The health meter is segmented, and only segments that are not empty when regeneration activates will regenerate. Otherwise consumables must be used. If you have no consumables you must manually heal, which leaves you vulnerable. MGSV's wounded state is similar to that last bit, but it feels extremely arbitrary. There's feedback that I know of to let you know you're at risk of a serious injury, and I've had times where they've seemingly come out of nowhere. It exists to force you to go defensive, but it feels random. It's definitely not ideal, and it's a band-aid on a system that isn't very functional in general.

The issue of the transformation into more of a shooter as a result of more lenient options is extremely complex. We don't know how harshly TPP will punish failed stealth, but we probably agree that it likely won't be too harsh for most of the game. Finding the proper balance is a very serious game design task.

How about this. I'm going to try to express my personal perspective here. I think that Ground Zeroes functions very well as a pure stealth game with some exceptions (some of them being really significant oversights in my view, but they're things that much of the userbase will probably never take note of), and I actively want to play it as one, so the loosening of the general structure doesn't really apply to me. It literally doesn't matter to me that non-stealth options have expanded because I've fully bought into the idea of this being a stealth game and am willing to self-limit to give myself the best experience I think I can get. I understand that this can be a tough mindset to gel with, but if you're willing and able to discuss mechanics at this level adopting it might help you. Don't think of the experience the total userbase gets from the game, focus on making your own experience the best it can be by playing to what you see as the strengths of the game mechanically. I do this very often; it's rare that a game has accessible mechanics, enough depth to be satisfying in the long term, and no ways to be broken all at the same time when it has a certain base level of complexity. Stealth games have always struggled mightily with the first of those three things, so compromises have been made. MGSV is, I think we agree, boring as a shooter. Luckily, I think it's quite interesting as a stealth game, so I'm committed to playing it that way. Kojima Productions isn't trying to make the platonic ideal of a stealth game in the end, and that's something we have to accept, but what they are making is very good in general and incredible with the right mindset despite some flaws.

The natural argument against this philosophy is that allowing non-stealth options inherently weakens MGSV as a stealth game. I feel that this is not the case, but if anyone wants to argue that it is I'd love to see a detailed argument. This isn't Splinter Cell where level design (Blacklist) and pretty much an entire game (Conviction) were sacrificed to create shooting oriented gameplay, it seems safe to assume that outside of the obligatory rail shooting sequences TPP will be fully functional as a stealth game. I also think its core mechanics of movement, enemy AI and stealth oriented player-AI interactions stand well above those games, but that may or may not be evidence that designing a more shooting oriented game isn't necessarily harmful depending on how those mechanics were conceived. The real truth can only be known by the actual designers, and even then, none of them actually know absolutely everything about all of the game, so the debate is completely open.

Oh, and I absolutely agree about instant large scale alerts. They suck. Lots. In an absolute purist playstyle they don't matter, but come on.

Fuck, I wrote way too much. I hope this is coherent.
 
One thing Ground Zeroes gets right is stealth detection. I think, thanks to the levels of enemy curiosity rather than the binary "I see nobody"/"Enemy spotted" in many other stealth games. Being at a distance where you are sort of spotted, where the enemy feels inclined to investigate, alleviates some of that. And that's particularly helpful in Hard mode, where the perception of enemies mimics what you'd expect from real people.

But yeah, a propagating alert system is sadly missed, and I want it back.
 
One thing Ground Zeroes gets right is stealth detection. I think, thanks to the levels of enemy curiosity rather than the binary "I see nobody"/"Enemy spotted" in many other stealth games. Being at a distance where you are sort of spotted, where the enemy feels inclined to investigate, alleviates some of that. And that's particularly helpful in Hard mode, where the perception of enemies mimics what you'd expect from real people.

But yeah, a propagating alert system is sadly missed, and I want it back.

I remember Kojima talking about the radio system being back in TPP, and if those extra Radial menu options that were datamined out of GZ seem to infer that something more akin to the old system is back in, or at least we'll be able to do a Radio All Clear.

Personally, I think the way the detection system is fine but the perfect way would've been to keep the old Alert system in place(which it kind of is, technically there is a Caution Phase period of a couple minutes or less after being detected and hiding in which the enemies search the base in GZ), or at least make it how it was in MGS3 in which if you interrupted them before they could radio the whole message everything would be fine except HQ would send a squad to check up on that soldier.

I mean the whole basewide alert thing is a bit silly.
 
And this new Q3 release window rumour I read about, based on KONAMI financial reports or summet? Anyone care to clarify?
 
In terms of pure stealth-gameplay, I still view MGS2 as the best game in the series. It was simpler, and had a more arcadey feel to it, but you always knew exactly when you were visable, and the AI was simplistic enough that you would always know how it would react, but complicated enough that you could interact with the enemies in lots of clever, fun ways.

The VR missions in MGS2: Substance are the highlight of the series for me, purely in terms of 'how fun is it to be sneaky'.
 
got a quote on that? because that's the only thing I don't like about GZ

I'll try to find it tomorrow, it was also something JunkerHQ caught and translated.

And in one of the demos of the Africa location they went to, apparently Kojima told the player playing(I think it was Jackie) the game to take out "The Radioman" since he's important or something. He didn't go much beyond that in detail.

I'm tired lol.
 
Fuck, I wrote way too much. I hope this is coherent.

No, it totally is, and you've actually got me wanting to go back and play more Ground Zeroes because I obviously don't understand it as well as I thought I did. I definitely get what you're saying about combat parts of the game being beefed up not mattering to someone who's solely interested in the stealth experience, and though I don't quite fully agree, I don't object strongly enough to really sit down and work my opinion all the way through with yet another huge post. I think my main point is that if you are so capable and resilient once you break your stealth cover, it devalues the point of stealthiness to begin with. But then the obvious answer to that is that we're talking about a fun video game that you can play on Hard mode if you really want some repercussions, so, y'know, there's a certain amount of stealth-purist curmudgeonry on my part :P

I definitely like the idea of segmented, semi-regenerating health. I agree that the old ration system might not be a perfect fit for the enormous open levels of MGSV, where you aren't likely to come across floating item boxes as frequently as you would in the old MGSes, but a full-on Call of Duty regen system is too far in the opposite direction for me. I still think that health needs to be a valuable commodity in this kind of game, not just an infinite wellspring. Especially when it comes to bossfights. I just don't think you can create that sense of one-on-one, fight-to-the-death tension when you can go and hide for a couple of seconds to get all your health back; you need something to worry about. Segmented regenerating health, with limited consumable items required to refill lost segments would probably be the ideal compromise.

Anyway, great post, man. I agree on pretty much every point. I think I'm always going to prefer the more traditional kind of stealth game with harsher penalties for failure, but I can accept that fun, enjoyable sneaking is its own reward.
 
Thing about the alert controversy in GZ: the soldiers are all mic'd up.

Hence how Big Boss can hear them radio in from a distance. If you are within earshot of a guard who is communicating a possible threat or w/e you can both hear him speak the words but also hear the same words he says over the comms.

So it's like a general 'contact' that the whole base can hear on their individual comms. For their telepathy in all knowing Snake's general location I just take it as the burst of firing the contact soldier makes. Guards near that will move towards it and the guards near them will follow them. Unless there is also some kind of ID'ing system when guards use comms which would also help localise the threat.

I still prefer the MGS3 system overall with you having a chance to take out the contact guard before he radios.
 
Whoa. TLOU hits the basics better than Ground Zeroes? Now I've heard everything.

Ground zeroes gives you an amazing amount of control over your character in an open environment with decent AI. I don't see any basic that isn't distinctly superior to TLOU's stealth.

I guess they're both action adventure stealth games?
 
In terms of pure stealth-gameplay, I still view MGS2 as the best game in the series. It was simpler, and had a more arcadey feel to it, but you always knew exactly when you were visable, and the AI was simplistic enough that you would always know how it would react, but complicated enough that you could interact with the enemies in lots of clever, fun ways.

The VR missions in MGS2: Substance are the highlight of the series for me, purely in terms of 'how fun is it to be sneaky'.

Completely agree with you. Some of the harder VR missions really push forward how much depth there was to the stealth in this game.
 
Those two aren't stealth games, they are action adventure games with optional stealth elements.


So what do you call ground zeroes? Stealth was almost entirely optional in gz, perhaps more than any other game in the series.
 
So what do you call ground zeroes? Stealth was almost entirely optional in gz, perhaps more than any other game in the series.

How is that bad? If you choose to play it stealthy you've got the greatest gameplay ahead of you and if you don't feel comfortable playing stealth games you can play it like an action game and still live all the story! I think it's the best way to please the fans and at the same time make the game more attractive to new comers.
 
How is that bad? If you choose to play it stealthy you've got the greatest gameplay ahead of you and if you don't feel comfortable playing stealth games you can play it like an action game and still live all the story! I think it's the best way to please the fans and at the same time make the game more attractive to new comers.

plus if you're trying to purely stealth through. you can fight your way out when you're seen. go and hide, and then try again without having to restart constantly
 
plus if you're trying to purely stealth through. you can fight your way out when you're seen. go and hide, and then try again without having to restart constantly

Exactly, of course that in closed small areas like MGS2 it's harder to hide so it makes sense but in open wide areas like GZ it also makes sense to run and lay down for a while. I think it's one of the best features on GZ: the AI looking for you
 
plus if you're trying to purely stealth through. you can fight your way out when you're seen. go and hide, and then try again without having to restart constantly

I recently replayed GZ when it released on steam and heard the escape theme alert theme when you have Paz. I just rolled with it instead of restarting at a checkpoint and it was just amazing finishing the mission. So tense especially since I was doing the no weapon trial!
 
Everytime i see that damn dog I become filled with a renewed sense of OMGDETERMINED. I will find that fucking puppy.

I will train it to kill.
I will train it to maim...

.... To love....
 
The stealth in GZ is great. Lots of freedom and lots of things you can do to distract people or mess with the environment. And it's only going to get better in TPP.

I understand the complaints on a certain level. But honestly, I don't need a stealth game to force me into stealth in order for me to consider it a good stealth game. I want a stealth game that makes stealth more fun and more satisfying than running and gunning, while giving me lots of options to facilitate that fun. That's what GZ does. Yeah, when all hell breaks loose you can salvage it. But I don't want to salvage it, because it feels bad getting caught and it's more fun to stealth it.

This is pretty much how I feel about stealth games. Stealth really only feels cool when it's presented as an option, and when you can choose what to do when being stealthy. I like being able to deal with the situation if things go badly. All that is what makes games like Thief II and Chaos Theory as great as they are.
 
This is pretty much how I feel about stealth games. Stealth really only feels cool when it's presented as an option, and when you can choose what to do when being stealthy.

I'd have to agree.

The GZ mission that did it best, though, was the one where you had to assassinate the two targets. There's incentive to use stealth because the game gives you leisure time to hunt the targets down when the base is peaceful. But if you get caught, you can still attempt to find them and gun them down before they escape the base, which isn't a likely thing to happen, but succeeding at doing so feels more awesome than actually taking them down with stealth.

I'll probably inflict some handicap on myself in Phantom Pain, like "Pistols only" or something, to give "Point A to B" missions more danger.
 
Everytime i see that damn dog I become filled with a renewed sense of OMGDETERMINED. I will find that fucking puppy.

I will train it to kill.
I will train it to maim...

.... To love....

I wonder if we can keep DD as a pup forever. I want an adorable killing machine with me on every mission.
 
I definitely get what you're saying about combat parts of the game being beefed up not mattering to someone who's solely interested in the stealth experience, and though I don't quite fully agree, I don't object strongly enough to really sit down and work my opinion all the way through with yet another huge post.
If you ever do get the desire to write out your thoughts, let me know. I'm sure it would be interesting. Like I said, the debate's open, I'm open to different perspectives, and it's fun to dig into this stuff, even if I feel a bit pretentious when I do it sometimes. :P
 
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