Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Michelle Alexander's facebook post regarding this piece is also worth sharing. 8 years of Clinton and the New Democrats basically completed what Reagan set out to do.
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Michelle Alexander: Why Hillary Clinton Doesnt Deserve the Black Vote
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Michelle Alexander's facebook post regarding this piece is also worth sharing. 8 years of Clinton and the New Democrats basically completed what Reagan set out to do.
kame-sennin
Member
Democrats will howl and scream, but it absolutely is.
kame-sennin
Member
I don't see any condescension. It's just a statement. If you're black, one of the greatest threats to your very existence is the mass incarceration state and the criminal justice machine. Voting for one of its architects, even if the other option is abstaining, is insane.
I'm sure Newt Gingrich made him do it... somehow.
It's not insane if one of those "architects" has since apologized and started a lot of work to dismantle the mistake. Check her Senate voting record.
JesseEwiak
Member
LBJ went from being a segregationist that Civil Rights leaders were pissed off at being Kennedy's VP choice to the man who did more for African American people than any other President since Lincoln or after them in eight short years.
People can change. Hillary has said the right things about private prisons - maybe she's saying it because of demographics, maybe she's really changed. As long as she stays good on policy, I don't care about what's in her heart.
Rastafarian42
Member
Damn no lies detected.
Yeah it's tricky. There's obviously a set of "black issues" that black voters care about more than other voters do but "black issues" aren't the only issues black voters care about, nor are they likely the primary issues black voters care about. Black voters probably care more about police brutality and incarceration than white voters, but they also care about cost of education and medicine, they care about foreign policy and veterans, they care about abortion rights and access, etc etc etc. Being "right" on "black issues" is neither necessary nor sufficient to win black votes.
When I learned about the lead thing it totally shattered me. It's such a clear baffling factor that it's hard to draw any useful conclusions at all about crime policies and violence for a huge stretch there.
Here it is for those interested
So she releases this piece telling people to not vote for democrats, especially clinton. So uhhh vote republican or not at all? Why do this now and not at midterms? Makes no sense considering the GOP is in shambles right now. The time to unite and strike is now.
Dude Abides
Banned
What revolution is she talking about? "Political revolution" is redundant. Is she gonna be on the barricades shooting at the national guard?
Spoiled Milk
Banned
That's why Toni Morrison called him the first black president, right?
It's a stealth endorsement of Jill Stein.
So what happens if Trumps becomes president? you would be suddenly better off than?
Anyone not voting really is not helping themselves.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
He wasn't mentally handicapped when he shot that cop in the back.
I read that and found her counter-argument disingenuous as if Bill Clinton wasn't pushing for liberal goals as President, the problem was he had a Republican Congress and thus. For instance, did she forget that Bill tried to push for universal health care when in office? And, better housing was a hallmark of the Clinton era which of course we later learned was a massive mistake since selling people houses they couldn't actually afford was ruinous to our economy.
The entire spat about the Clintons is entirely removed from the context of the times and makes it out so that Bill and Hilary had it out for the black community, the truth isn't anywhere near that. If you're going to call out Hilary then also call out the entire Black Caucus that supported all those measures. Again, that whole piece reads like "you didn't fix everything wrong with the black community (both then and in the future) therefore you are shouldn't have any of the black vote."
theignoramus
Member
He was mentally handicapped after he shot himself in the head. He had no conception of what was even going on during the execution. The appropriate course of action was to call off the execution and have the man locked up for life.
Only someone with a demented moral outlook would think otherwise.
what's clever about this piece is how she worded that. She won't endorse Bernie and she won't vote for Clinton.
hehehe
Not when Cruz and Trump and the like are on the R ticket. Abstaining = a vote for them.
Delusibeta
Banned
The big, fundamental problem with this attitude is that elections in which people of color don't vote in tends to result in lots of Republicans getting elected. And, frankly, even Michelle Alexander would prefer a Clinton than any of the current Republican options for President.
(There's a similar problem in getting third parties off the ground, in that they tend to exist primarily as a spoiler for one of the major two parties. If the theoretical Alexander party gets to the stage where it gets decent PoC support, I would expect the primary outcome for a good couple of decades would be the Republican party winning more, due to the Alexanders splitting the Democrat's base. This assumes there isn't a fundamental voting reform, which frankly strikes me as a safe assumption for the foreseeable)
Here it is for those interested
i dont get it, she doesnt endorse Sanders but she endorses Sanders?
"There's nothing pragmatic" is a demonstrable lie; appointing judges who'll restore the Voting Rights Act and protect Affirmative Action is certainly pragmatic.
It should be stickied at the top of all of these threads: we're not just electing one-four-year Presidential term - we're also picking several lifetime SCOTUS appointees and many, many lower-tier judicial nominees. Either of the Democratic candidates will do a fine job on this matter.
Folks claiming that there's no difference between Clinton and the GOP, folks whining about how they'll stay home if their preferred nominee isn't picked - they still have no answer to counter points concerning the Supreme Court.
This is how I feel. I honestly do agree with a lot of what Bernie says and I'm sure most people in this thread do as well. The thing with Bernie a lot his idea just aren't going to fly yet. Maybe in 10-20 years after our generation has aged a bit and the generation after us come up. But not right now.
Lets say Bernie wins the presidency. My biggest fear is that he becomes a lame duck president for 4 years. Bernie is a self proclaimed socialist. Most of the electorate has stated flat out they will never vote for one. You think congress trying to halt anything Obama did was bad it'll most likely be even worse for Bernie and I feel he would be terrible for down ballot voting.
That said Hillary is a left leaning centrist if anything. I hate how people say Hillary takes Bernie's stances. NO. If anything these are democratic stances and talking points so yes of course she needs to address it. Lets stop being childish and appreciate the fact we have two candidates that speak on issues instead of the shit show we see on the GOP side.
Do I think the GOP will attack Hillary like Obama. Sure. But I feel she'll be able to negotiate and compromise.
I guess at the end of the day I like Bernie's message but I do feel it's too "pie in the sky" and I can't hedge my bets on that knowing the state of this country right now. Change and progress like Obama said is slow and sometimes painful
Lets say Bernie wins the presidency. My biggest fear is that he becomes a lame duck president for 4 years. Bernie is a self proclaimed socialist. Most of the electorate has stated flat out they will never vote for one. You think congress trying to halt anything Obama did was bad it'll most likely be even worse for Bernie and I feel he would be terrible for down ballot voting.
That said Hillary is a left leaning centrist if anything. I hate how people say Hillary takes Bernie's stances. NO. If anything these are democratic stances and talking points so yes of course she needs to address it. Lets stop being childish and appreciate the fact we have two candidates that speak on issues instead of the shit show we see on the GOP side.
Do I think the GOP will attack Hillary like Obama. Sure. But I feel she'll be able to negotiate and compromise.
I guess at the end of the day I like Bernie's message but I do feel it's too "pie in the sky" and I can't hedge my bets on that knowing the state of this country right now. Change and progress like Obama said is slow and sometimes painful
theignoramus
Member
Just a way of saying she thinks Sanders isnt good enough, but Hillary is worse, and ought to be voted against.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I suppose that is one interpretation.
I think it's fair to say that that Clinton campaigned on L&O and welfare reform, just like Reagan and Bush, but unlike those two, Clinton actually carried out those things on a grander scale than either of them ever could.
I think it's also interesting that Clinton capitulated to the GOP so much and Gingrich eventually shut down the government anyway. President Obama gets (fairly, even if you don't agree) attacked for capitulating to the House or, now that the GOP runs it again, the Senate. I think that it's fair to attack Bill Clinton for that same thing. I suspect that one's feelings about Obama re: capitulation might inform their feelings on Clinton re: capitulation, but then again, what Obama capitulated on was ACA instead of single-payer, and what Clinton capitulated on was harsher treatment for black crack smokers instead of white cocaine users.
I think that Alexander indirectly calls out the Black Democratic Caucus when she disavows the Democratic party.
Clinton's housing push is your only fair point, but then again, low-income mortgages were not at all a major factor in the housing market, so I disagree with your analysis of his focus on making more mortgages to low-income people. I do note that in Clinton's time, poor white folks gained economically at significantly greater rates than poor black folks, and I suspect that his housing program priorities are a part of that. It's hard to get even one of those FHA-supported loans when you've got a bogus felony conviction on your record and thus can't get steady work thanks to Clinton supporting racist omnibus crime bills.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Yup, I was born during the 90's but I wasn't born here so this stuff is new to me. I mean I've read about this in history books taught by teachers who actually knew what they were doing, but I wasn't as politically active as I have been in recent years. They were trying to sell the fear mongering narrative to the racist populace in the US.
Hilariously, or sadly, history seems to be repeating itself with the Muslium population and refugees in Europe and the USA. Probably going to get worse before it gets any better.
Feels like black people don't have anyone to truly represent their interests (so far) but I've been told, "That's Politics!"
soundscream
Member
Here it is for those interested
Nope.
I have issues with the democratic party, but I will be a cold day in hell before I waste my vote on a non viable candidate or don't vote at all.
I think it could be reasonably argued that for America it is, indeed, a cold day in hell already
Septimus Prime
Member
Thanks for your replies. I definitely get that these are important things to address, but I still can't help but feel that some of these are outside the President's purview regardless who's in office, and I feel like the best the President can do regarding these is still to modify economic policy.
Surprisingly, right after I read that Coates article, Coates revealed that he's going to vote for Sanders.
soundscream
Member
Not really.
I'm impressed in a disgusted manner at Clinton's inability to say with confidence that she won't deport children and damn near indifference to immigration beyond platitudes.
I really don't get what Michelle Alexander is trying to accomplish here. Bernie cannot win the general election. Sorry, America as a country is not there yet. A socialist winning the presidency isn't going to happen any time soon. With no real challenge to the republican presidential nominee, democrats get slaughtered nation wide and republicans claim super majorities and control the courts. This is the big picture that Michelle is missing. Sure blacks and other minorities can say to democrats "you didn't do all you could do for us, so now we aren't voting for you", but this just lead to getting a group in power that actively seeks to destroy blacks and minorities any and every way possible.
You know what? On second thought, I want to see the end result of what Michelle is championing happen. "I told you so" is the most beautiful phrase in existence. Yes, Michelle, let blacks and minorities vote against their own survival and self interest by not voting for the stronger candidate and the democratic party. Surely republicans will have a change of heart and bring prosperity to minority communities.
You know what? On second thought, I want to see the end result of what Michelle is championing happen. "I told you so" is the most beautiful phrase in existence. Yes, Michelle, let blacks and minorities vote against their own survival and self interest by not voting for the stronger candidate and the democratic party. Surely republicans will have a change of heart and bring prosperity to minority communities.
FreedomFighter
Member
This was a great read.
And on point too... now that Clinton is using Treyvon Martin and Eric Garner's mom to appeal to Black voters.
We gettin' played again, y'all...
And on point too... now that Clinton is using Treyvon Martin and Eric Garner's mom to appeal to Black voters.
We gettin' played again, y'all...
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Not a criticism, but I get a cringe reading this because it reminds me of the $2000 checks Bush sent all of us in Katrina affected zones, and how everyone who didn't get one joked about poor black people buying TVs and Red Lobster with it
Which then reminds me of good ol Laura talking about how "I guess it worked out for them" Katrina victims
Bernie's got killer Mike and cornel west. There's enough tokenism to spread around to hit all the groups between the two campaigns.
While in general i would agree on the piece (about the fact that the Clinton have a cred that they don't absolutely deserve in regard to minorities), i don't agree at all that it's not an option to not vote Clinton in the general. It absolutely is, as disgusting as it may be, it's still way better than the alternative. "Good" is not absolute, it's relative.
Between a finger and an eye, i'd rather lose a finger if anything, it's not a non-pragmatic choice. Sadly, the third way alternative of doing an actual revolution is just not doable anymore because the system feed us.
Idealism to progress toward an objective is one thing, idealism to prove a point is another. While both are risky and can lead to progress, the latter is often more dangerous.
Between a finger and an eye, i'd rather lose a finger if anything, it's not a non-pragmatic choice. Sadly, the third way alternative of doing an actual revolution is just not doable anymore because the system feed us.
Idealism to progress toward an objective is one thing, idealism to prove a point is another. While both are risky and can lead to progress, the latter is often more dangerous.
Ummm....not sure you could find a longtime elected Senator in U.S Congress of significant political notoriety that would fit the writers criteria as to what constitutes a proper requisite for citizen support - call it the black vote, latino vote - in the end, it's a citizens vote making rationalizations based on simple campaign messaging (the overwhelming majority).
Best bet for this type of criteria I guess is a fresh, 1 term, two term senator.
The Clinton name is money with black voters. That's just a fact.
Best bet for this type of criteria I guess is a fresh, 1 term, two term senator.
The Clinton name is money with black voters. That's just a fact.
spazchicken
Member
I came here to say this. Great job.
SliceSabre
Banned
Not really because my issues with Sanders go beyond just if he's going to make my life as a black person better. I'm not inclined to vote for inspirational politicians in general, when Obama was running I voted against him, in support of Hillary, before I voted for him. I vote for people I feel can get things done.
That just sounds like Republican talk ('Where did my country go? I want America back!"). Yeah, there are some things that suck, but not so much that we should throw everything away in the name of some half-baked 'revolution' that offers tall promises but no realistic way to acheive them. A cold day in hell will come if Republicans own the White House and all of Congress, and manage to install conservative Justices into the Supreme Court. I'm sure all of those Bernie supporters will feel really good about their protest votes then. I certainly won't have any sympathy for them, but I'll feel awful for the people who'd get royally fucked over in a all-Republican government.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
She said nothing about "black-centric." Your own bigotry is showing through, however. We'd better vote how you want or fuck us, huh?
I know she addressed it in her piece because I quoted it in my post and still had troubles with the handwaving aspect around it.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I don't agree that it's a handwave, but I apologize not being able to differentiate that quote from the rest of your post. Sometimes I have a hard time picking out specific text from posts.
It's okay. I think it a much more complicated issue than what Michelle talks about in her article that lacks a significant amount of context in order to further a point that probably could be made without it.
I get very uncomfortable criticizing Hillary for things her husband did, even if she was in support of the legislation because she was not a politician and had a particular role to play in the White House, for better or worse.
LOL.
This is a great line to illustrate the divide between some non-minority progressives. Ultimately its interesting to see when black people bring up issues its immediately seen as US vs THEM. Ideally helping all of us achieve equality helps all of us.
We just want acknowledgement, man. Either from the Democratic Party, or a whole other party. We tried that whole, 'our own party' thing in the 70's and it didn't end well with police assassinations, wiretaps and false imprisonment.
hodayathink
Member
That's not the point. If I'm reading the argument correctly (and someone say something if I'm not), the point is if African-Americans were to en masse stop voting for the Democratic party (by either abstaining or forming a third party), this would cause the party to come back to them and say "What can we do to get you to start voting for us again?"
Which makes sense in theory, except for what African-Americans would stand to lose from the elections that they didn't vote Democrat on. In the author's estimation that wouldn't be much, since she sees Hillary as someone who would actively harm the AA community, and Bernie as someone who wouldn't help either, but I have to say that I disagree with her on that idea.
nitekrawlwer
Member
The current state of the Clintons:
When she met BLM she asked for policy. Even talented people like TNC are having trouble creating explicit policy past the realm of theory. I wish someone knowledgeable enough were there to suggest hr 40 to give arm us with better information to create such policy. I would also ask if we could find reason to revisit Mclesky v Kemp as well as citizens united once she has those suppreme court appointees.
I think it's disingenuous to make it seem as if she is against Bernie because she doesn't want to build a movement for greater equality, fair wages and universal health care or end corporate control over politics. She attempts those things too. Just within the establishment. The legitimate questions surrounding say his healthcare plan costs alone gives good reason to caution if not wonder about feasibility of at least that part of the plan without some evil motive.
When she met BLM she asked for policy. Even talented people like TNC are having trouble creating explicit policy past the realm of theory. I wish someone knowledgeable enough were there to suggest hr 40 to give arm us with better information to create such policy. I would also ask if we could find reason to revisit Mclesky v Kemp as well as citizens united once she has those suppreme court appointees.
I think it's disingenuous to make it seem as if she is against Bernie because she doesn't want to build a movement for greater equality, fair wages and universal health care or end corporate control over politics. She attempts those things too. Just within the establishment. The legitimate questions surrounding say his healthcare plan costs alone gives good reason to caution if not wonder about feasibility of at least that part of the plan without some evil motive.
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