-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Microsoft Surface Pro 3 Announced (12", 3:2 aspect ratio, new stand)
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
But they *really* are quite minor when examined under the microscope of use cases.
It's not to say they're not valid issues - they are - but the real issue is perhaps proving to be more the perception of lapability than actual lapability. It's in that sense the issue of lapability is 'minor' - because in practice it doesn't really stop it from been usable; just makes it slightly uncomfortable in comparison. It's more than physically possible to place the kickstand on your pelvis or thighs, just as other people have mentioned that to be the case in here.
I mean, I don't have a Surface pro myself; but I do have a tablet with a folding case that mimics much the same thing - and that is imminently usable on my thighs... or at least only slightly less so than a laptop in the same position (discomfort stemming from craning my neck down and keeping my legs still in both cases).
And when you consider that most of the use cases where you'd want to use the device for a prolonged period would also be ones where you'd naturally have support for the kickstand setup - then the it's fair to say that the problems are more imagined than actual.
As for whether you can afford it; it may have been better rephrased as; price is a significant concern (as it is with me).
The real question though is, if you were in the market for a laptop now, at that price range, and you were going to buy one product or another - does perceived lack of 'lappability' reduce the functionality sufficiently that you'd go with another product with its own sets of pros and cons?
A year ago I was thinking about replacing my aging Macbook with a Surface Pro 2, but I was concerned about the screen size and the kick-stand and thought I would probably be better off with a laptop. In the end I decided to stick with my Macbook for a while.
At some point I saw a great offer for the Surface 2 and bought one. Due to my experience with the Surface 2 and the increased screen size (and better screen ratio) of the Surface Pro 3 my concerns have now vanished. If I were in the market for a new laptop right now I'm pretty sure I'd go with the Surface Pro 3.
Even with the Surface 2 I don't have any lapability issues. I wrote a couple of job applications on my Surface 2 on the train (with the device on my backpack which was on my lap). Felt just as stable as a laptop. I also used the device to read on the train, which works better with a tablet than it does with a notebook.
Right now I have no need for a new laptop, but I might revisit the idea in a year and if Microsoft still make Surfaces by that time, there's a pretty good chance I'd go with that.
At some point I saw a great offer for the Surface 2 and bought one. Due to my experience with the Surface 2 and the increased screen size (and better screen ratio) of the Surface Pro 3 my concerns have now vanished. If I were in the market for a new laptop right now I'm pretty sure I'd go with the Surface Pro 3.
Even with the Surface 2 I don't have any lapability issues. I wrote a couple of job applications on my Surface 2 on the train (with the device on my backpack which was on my lap). Felt just as stable as a laptop. I also used the device to read on the train, which works better with a tablet than it does with a notebook.
Right now I have no need for a new laptop, but I might revisit the idea in a year and if Microsoft still make Surfaces by that time, there's a pretty good chance I'd go with that.
Sounds like I need to bring more stuffs for Shog to write off.
Shogmaster
Member
To be fair, the rest of his comparo was pretty much right on. It's just that one troll logic popped out and smacked me in the face as wacky.
Shogmaster
Member
Weight wise, SP3 is closer to RT than SP2. So IMO SP3 is more one hand hold friendly.
Surface RT / 2 / Pro 3 / Pro 2 weigh ~ 680 / 640 / 800 / 900 grams respectively. Pro 3 is about as thin as RT and doesn't weigh that much more. Holding it should work about as well as holding the RT.
Thinking about the issue... technically, you'd only need more levels of pressure than 256... if the saturation/luminance value was in excess of 256 discrete steps OR... the brush was larger than 256 pixels - because at a single step of pressure it'd equate to 1 pixel, and two steps, it'd equate to 2 pixels... and at 256 pixels, it'd equate to 256 pixels.
If you have a 2000 pixel brush, then each step would have to be something like 10 pixel difference in size.
That's assuming that there was a linear scaling between pressure based brush size and pressure steps - but even if there isn't, that just means the nature of the scaling changes - that some stepping points produce a far larger degree of change then other stepping points (e.g. the step between 0 pressure and 1 step of pressure changes the brush size from 0 to 1000 for a 2000 pixel brush or some such).
Unless I'm simply misinterpreting how these things work - which I could be, I'm only figuring this stuff out on the fly based on the principles of what I already know.
Shogmaster
Member
His conclusion of 256 levels being good enough was fine. It's just how he got to it was wacky. You have to remember that you can use pressure for more than brush size expression. I'd say opacity change is just as important, if not more. And you can also use it for angle change, jitter or whatever the brush has parameter for.
So what he says isn't wholly inaccurate, but a very incomplete picture of what pressure can be used for. Fair enough.
arter_2
Member
Stylus are used for more than just 2D painting programs. Here's the problem that is not being addressed with this. There are a batch of programs where pressure sensitivity is everything, 256 pressure points is nowhere near enough in inking programs and 3D sculpting programs like Zbrush. For example Zbrush uses the pressure sensitivity of the tablet to control how much your stroke will actually pull out vertices. Have more steps is very important to creating nuances needed in digital sculpting. I'm my experience my old x61t tablet with wacom tech and 256 pressure levels doesn't hold a candle to my intuos with 2048 levels. Many times I have to move my work to my desktop to get the subtle differences needed in digital sculpting. Now this is by no means a common use case but for a professional like me this is a deal killer. I was looking forward to this being the ultimate artist device many of us artists have been looking for. For years many companies have come close but there is always one thing off, and sadly this time not having wacom is a big omission. I will wait till I can try it myself, but at the moment ntrig isn't really supported by zbrush to begin with. This was supposed to be a pro device not something just for execs to take notes. While the artist market is small they are loyal
I bought the Surface RT back when it was first released.
I returned it the next day. But I came away with three very strong immediate beliefs about the product.
1. Surface RT is terrible in its current form and buying an RT version of a product instead of the full Win8 version is probably an awful decision for anyone unless they are very price conscious (and there is no excuse with the arrival of cheap windows 8 tablets/2-in-1's). The Surface needs to have full Windows to thrive.
2. Microsoft must find a way to bring down the price and get the common sense to include a goddamn keyboard in every SKU of the product.
3. This thing has some amazing potential. And that if Microsoft stays with it, and keeps making it better, after 4 or so iterations, it could be the ultimate unprecedented 2-in-1 for the masses.
It seems like with the Surface 3 Microsoft is on that path, and making it better and better. Just a bit more things. Let's just hope that with Microsoft doing all of this good groundwork that someone doesn't come along *cough*apple despite their bullshit about convergence not being the way to go*cough* and undercut them because Microsoft is too stubborn to make the prices more reasonable and include a keyboard.
I returned it the next day. But I came away with three very strong immediate beliefs about the product.
1. Surface RT is terrible in its current form and buying an RT version of a product instead of the full Win8 version is probably an awful decision for anyone unless they are very price conscious (and there is no excuse with the arrival of cheap windows 8 tablets/2-in-1's). The Surface needs to have full Windows to thrive.
2. Microsoft must find a way to bring down the price and get the common sense to include a goddamn keyboard in every SKU of the product.
3. This thing has some amazing potential. And that if Microsoft stays with it, and keeps making it better, after 4 or so iterations, it could be the ultimate unprecedented 2-in-1 for the masses.
It seems like with the Surface 3 Microsoft is on that path, and making it better and better. Just a bit more things. Let's just hope that with Microsoft doing all of this good groundwork that someone doesn't come along *cough*apple despite their bullshit about convergence not being the way to go*cough* and undercut them because Microsoft is too stubborn to make the prices more reasonable and include a keyboard.
Oh yeah, I don't doubt for a moment that there are use cases where pressure is important. Indeed, the article itself does mention that it's inferior for sculptors.
But the idea that it has effect on brush size only after it goes past 256 pixels, is somewhat salient - unless photoshop does sub pixel brush sizes... which is a bit overkill really.
Okay bro
Haha, this original post with the quoted picture is hilarious.
I have been using the Surface Pro as my only computer for a whole year and I have started to use it in ways I can't as a laptop nor as an iPad.
When watching netflix I like to lie down on my side, and I found that with the kickstand open and type cover it can hold itself vertically without falling so I can turn with it. I also use this with Skype and my GF, when trying to do the same thing, has to keep her hand holding whatever device it is (laptop, iPad, iPhone).
They should have announced the Pro 3 a little earlier and she would have been all over it, instead she got the Vaio Fit 13 which is has a terrible screen and is absolutely horrible at transforming from tablet to laptop, so much so that she regrets buying it.
Okay bro
HAHAHA
But you're missing the big hair. Photo fail.
But seriously, can you move around in that position? You probably can't tell in my picture, but part of the reason sitting in this position with my laptop is so comfortable for me is because the weight of the laptop is actually resting up against my chest, which means I can move my legs around without my laptop completely toppling over.
But I feel like we're starting to focus too much specifically on lapability and Royalan's awkward picture. I've never used a Surface in real life scenarios. I've only ever used the Pro 2 in-store on a perfectly flat surface where it was plenty stable. But even then my takeaway was a genuine concern that it wouldn't be comfortable to use with keyboard in any situation that wasn't "perfectly flat surface." And I wish I could say I was so desk-minded that this wasn't a major concern for me, but I'm not...so it is.
Microsoft Store has a 14 days return policy.
Is that keypad solid and non-flexible or bendy and thin?Okay bro
The pictured type cover is solid (but still relatively thin).
CharlieDigital
Banned
Okay bro
Both posts kind of miss the point that it can be used as a tablet (as i am doing now shitting on the toilet)
There are an awful lot of people in this thread that claim that the surface isn't for them because it isn't a laptop. That's fine though, if you are a heavy content creator then a laptop or even a desktop would suit your needs. For most people though all they do is consume content, and maybe some light creation. That would imply that the surface would meet their needs nicely. In a bigger picture sense, there is a large audience for this judging by normal computer usage patterns; personally I think the issue is the price.
a secret-boss
Banned
Should i take a picture now as i post this on my Surface taking a dump
Solideliquid
Member
Okay bro
What about sitting Indian style say while you're holding onto the controller playing games, you've got a laptop in your lap. Can you do that with the surface pro 3?
CharlieDigital
Banned
Quite the contrary.
I have Visual Studio 2013, SQL Server, and SharePoint installed on my Surface Pro 2 and I use it as a supplementary device when I want to travel light. That is the beauty of it -- that it can be used for content consumption (though lacking severely in apps) and actually be used for content creation with very few restrictions. It is a fantastic device to use in flight because you don't have to contort yourself to use it.
When I was deciding between the Surface and a Dell XPS 13, I ended up with the Surface because ultimately, it was much more flexible: it could be used as a "laptop" or a tablet for those times when I'm just laying down on my sofa.
...but it doesnt only work on a desk or table. Have you even read the thread. There's like, real life, actual, people in here saying how they use a surface everyday in those ways.
Okay bro
LOL was going to post this
lastflowers
Banned
not to be dismissive of your use case, but I'd love to know what situation brings this about.
legacyzero
Banned
Does this mean I can get SP2 at a cheaper price now?
Yeah. I'm too old to sit in all these crazy positions. Bad for my back and knees, :lol
Solideliquid
Member
Yo I'm sitting on my couch playing PS4 wolfTNO cross legged with my heavy 4.5 lbs rMBP on my lap. When I die I glance down to refresh GAF or whatever.
Please take an awkward selfie.
Solideliquid
Member
Not happening lol.
Zantetsuken
Member
Im sold on it. Going to upgrade from an aging late-09 Macbook.
The more I look at it, the more I realize the SP3 is a technological marvel.
The more I look at it, the more I realize the SP3 is a technological marvel.
brotkasten
Member
Until you want to use it on your couch.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's weird whenever I see the things people do defined like this.
BlastProcessing
Member
I was mostly responding to the conversation from a few pages ago about conferences and "lapability". Here is a representative quote.
A sentiment I agree with.
All of this stuff comes down to personal preference. I don't like typing on my knees, period. If I am at a coffee shop or a meeting or whatever and I have the choice between typing in my lap and using a desk or table, I am using the desk or table. I would bet most people would also. If I have no desk or table, I am either going to wait till later and/or use the Surface's excellent Onenote capability to get information down. For me this is a huge advantage over a Laptop.
In my opinion, even laptops suck in laps. Attaching the screen to the keyboard fixes portability problems but, for me, it introduces a ton of ergonomic issues. If I get the screen height comfortable, the keyboard height isn't.
When I buy something, I am interested in what it excels at, not what it's ok at and, for my uses, (which are, primarily writing and art) laptops don't excel at much. Which is why I am not impressed when Microsoft takes the Surface, a device I really think is revolutionary and super interesting, and slaps a keyboard on it because that is what laptop users are comfortable with. I think their constant positioning of the Surface as a Laptop replacement and the fact that the thing is never advertised without a keyboard (which is odd because it doesn't come with one) is a mistake. They need to highlight the new things Surface can do instead of going out of their way to make it look like a weird, compromised, laptop.
I think somebody at Microsoft agrees with me somewhat because, for a hot second, they sold this wireless keyboard adapter. And they still sell the desktop dock. (Side peeve, why are all desktop docks so damn expensive? I can never justify buying one just to save 20-30 seconds a few times a week.)
I am just puzzled as to why that's the only use Microsoft seems to want to highlight. I guess it's because that's how Laptops are advertised? Like how SUVs are advertised as trail climbing outdoor machines even though most people just commute in the, I guess people want to know that the can do something that they never will actually do. The Surface is an amazingly flexible device, so if it works for you on your lap or chest, thats obviously great. You guys are like the Jeep owners who actually gets theirs muddy.
I would really like to see Microsoft highlight the different set ups people use. Show Writer set ups, Artist set ups, Programmers, Personal assistants, Insurance agents, Nurses, Pilots, and the like. Then maybe we would all stop arguing about "Lapability" a stupid word that Microsoft themselves interjected into the conversation because they feel insecure.
While I am giving Microsoft unwanted marketing advice, I would say that positioning your product as a replacement for something is risky. You are inviting comparisons to something a consumer as already bought and paid for. It can be a pretty high hurdle to convince someone to dump a device that they have invested in. If they use it all the time they probably find it valuable and if it sits unused they probably don't want to replace it. Them Microsoft pitches the Surface Pro 3 as the replacement for two devices. "Stop using the tablet you have and buy our thing" is a tough sell to anyone who really likes either their current devices. The only consumers who think that way are businesses really.
They need to sell the Surface as a new category.
Back to actual talk about the Surface 3 Pro: I am super curious about the i3 and i7 performance respectively. Is an i3 enough? How useful is Turbo Boost in normal use cases? Does the i7 run too hot? Is it fast enough to be primary machine?
BlastProcessing
Member
lastflowers
Banned
the accessory prices need to come down. It's crazy what they're priced at.
Apparently the wireless keyboard thingy doesn't work very well. Reddit's reviews by those that own it make me understand a little bit why it was discontinued, and put me off buying one:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/25ckzq/anyone_have_the_wireless_adapter_for_type_covers/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/25ckzq/anyone_have_the_wireless_adapter_for_type_covers/
BlastProcessing
Member
It was too beautiful to live!
Paul Thurrott has a nice opinion piece on the Surface's place in the world.
The Faceless Master
Member
They discontinued that! why?!
wait... it's a $60 adapter that you attach to your existing Surface keyboard accessory?
i wonder why it didn't sell...
I think the weirdest part of all the Surface Pro 3 discussion is how much its usability as a pure tablet is being totally ignored. Whether talking about "lappability" or simply how you can prop it up on a bed/tray table / wherever else.
It's like people are so conditioned to think that 8" and 10" are the only reasonable sizes for tablets that they automatically assume a 12" tablet is just too absurd to even consider as a viable size to use.
It's like people are so conditioned to think that 8" and 10" are the only reasonable sizes for tablets that they automatically assume a 12" tablet is just too absurd to even consider as a viable size to use.
Because tablets now have been mostly synonymous with a touch-screen device that is lightweight, can be carried around easily, and with the primary, or only, input being touch. Making arguments with most people that SP3 can be a viable tablet will only lead to arguments revolving how inflexible their definition of a tablet is. So it's pretty pointless really.
A better argument is probably that SP3 is a laptop-caliber device that you can carry around easily and is far more flexible as a mobile device, especially without having to carry and rely on the burdensome keyboard when you don't need it.
A better argument is probably that SP3 is a laptop-caliber device that you can carry around easily and is far more flexible as a mobile device, especially without having to carry and rely on the burdensome keyboard when you don't need it.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
I actually slam this thing for work all day every day and it keeps up. It's quite an amazing little machine
Running Creative Suite most days and it doesn't skip a beat (though 8Gb RAM would definitely help...). Regularly cranking out large format posters on it and it's fine. Obviously a desktop would be more suited from a raw power POV but being able to unhook this tiny computer, chuck it in a bag and be completely portable and be able to do illustrations on the screen while out and about is a godsend. I'ts untethered me from my desk in a way no other machine has.Honestly, my only real gripe with the machine is how Metro IE won't work unless it's set as the defaut browser, for some ridiculous reason. I use Chrome in desktop mode, always have, so I don't want to switch to IE, but being forced to be stuck in the 'desktop' version of IE when using it as a tablet is absurd and a weird decision by Microsoft. Frustrating.