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[Feep]

I'm utterly shocked at these reviewers' continued hatred toward the keyboard and kickstand. The SP3, thanks to the variable kickstand and stability-improving magnetic edge lock, are OBJECTIVELY better than the SP1 or SP2 in regard to usage ergonomics, and works just fine in basically any scenario I can conceive. "The kickstand digs into my legs"? Are they using this device in the nude? Are they completely unable to adjust to slightly different sized keys?

My review of this device would read very different from these folks.

 

[RoKKeR]

Thinking about this as a replacement for my 2010 MBP and am very, VERY undecided. I think the SP3 is finally closer to the laptop side of the spectrum but there are still some things I'm iffy about... basically whether the kickstand/type cover acts as a good replacement for a solid laptop, and that seems to be a common discussion point.

Any thoughts on people coming from laptops? I feel like it probably could act perfectly well as a replacement but it's tough to commit.

 

[enzo_gt]

That's the audience it matters to the least. I've literally never seen anyone actually put a laptop on their lap in a conference room, because that's what conference room tables are for.

Well, that's the laptop half of it. The tablet half of it is on-the-go productivity and if someone wants to doodle on the couch.

 

[royalan]

I just wonder if the whole "lapability" thing is a bit overblown. I understand for tech journalists it's a big thing, because they are constantly sardine-canned into conferences with seats and no tables, and I'm sure there are other people in unrelated circumstances who also constantly need lap use...but I can't think of the last time I personally wasn't using a table or flat surface of some kind for my laptops. Am I alone on this?

I don't think it's overblown at all. It's actually a huge issue. The problem is the term "lapability" has become such a common 'catch-all' word for the problem that its actually made the problem look narrower than it actually is.

The problem with the Surface isn't just "lapability." It's, "anything-that's-not-a-completely-flat-stable-surfaceability" The Surface just isn't designed to be comfortably used in any scenerio that isn't a flat, desk-like surface. And when you get into the price-range the Surface is in, and you're expecting people to replace their laptops with this thing, little things like this become vitally important to the perception of the device.

For example: here's a shameless selfie I took earlier today:

It's Saturday, my day off, my feet are propped up on the coffee table, I've got movies playing on my TV and I have no intention of changing out of my PJs or even leaving my couch. This is how I sit with my laptop. This would literally not be possible with the Surface. And my roommate has me beat with all the goofy ways she sits propped up with her laptop. Sitting with my laptop propped up on the couch, on the bad, on a blanket at the park, with your legs crossed. It's not just the black and white of being suited for being used on either a table or your perfectly still lap, it's everything in between. These are all common ways that people use their laptops, and the Surface is suited for none of it.

And I suppose you could say that this is where the Surface shines as a tablet, but most people STILL want access to a physical keyboard in these positions. And that's important, because MS isn't asking people to replace their tablet with a Surface, they're asking them to replace their laptops, and at a pretty steep price, to boot.

As long as the weight of the Surface lies in it's screen (with the flimsy type cover providing little in the way of counterweight), this is going to always be a massive problem for MS and their efforts to have people see the Surface as a viable replacement for their laptops.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

I can use the Pro 1 on my lap, stability is fine, it is the angle that is the problem and the 2 and 3 (even more so) fixes that.

 

[Jayayess1190]

Interesting, Cnet says the Core i3-4020Y is used in the low end model.

 

[Zabka]

And I suppose you could say that this is where the Surface shines as a tablet, but most people STILL want access to a physical keyboard in these positions. And that's important, because MS isn't asking people to replace their tablet with a Surface, they're asking them to replace their laptops, and at a pretty steep price, to boot.

Of course they're asking people to replace their tablets. The point is that you're replacing your tablet and your laptop at the same time. The tablet part is a given though.

And if a tablet isn't the perfect lounging computer device then I don't what is. Typing on an on-screen keyboard propped up against my legs is far more ergonomic than resting my palms on my nipples. I'd rather use a phone than a laptop in that position.

 

[JaggedSac]

Of course they're asking people to replace their tablets. The point is that you're replacing your tablet and your laptop at the same time. The tablet part is a given though.

And if a tablet isn't the perfect lounging computer device then I don't what is. Typing on an on-screen keyboard propped up against my legs is far more ergonomic than resting my palms on my nipples. I'd rather use a phone than a laptop in that position.

lol, this X 1000.

 

[captive]

I don't think it's overblown at all. It's actually a huge issue. The problem is the term "lapability" has become such a common 'catch-all' word for the problem that its actually made the problem look narrower than it actually is.

The problem with the Surface isn't just "lapability." It's, "anything-that's-not-a-completely-flat-stable-surfaceability" The Surface just isn't designed to be comfortably used in any scenerio that isn't a flat, desk-like surface. And when you get into the price-range the Surface is in, and you're expecting people to replace their laptops with this thing, little things like this become vitally important to the perception of the device.

For example: here's a shameless selfie I took earlier today:

It's Saturday, my day off, my feet are propped up on the coffee table, I've got movies playing on my TV and I have no intention of changing out of my PJs or even leaving my couch. This is how I sit with my laptop. This would literally not be possible with the Surface. And my roommate has me beat with all the goofy ways she sits propped up with her laptop. Sitting with my laptop propped up on the couch, on the bad, on a blanket at the park, with your legs crossed. It's not just the black and white of being suited for being used on either a table or your perfectly still lap, it's everything in between. These are all common ways that people use their laptops, and the Surface is suited for none of it.

And I suppose you could say that this is where the Surface shines as a tablet, but most people STILL want access to a physical keyboard in these positions. And that's important, because MS isn't asking people to replace their tablet with a Surface, they're asking them to replace their laptops, and at a pretty steep price, to boot.

As long as the weight of the Surface lies in it's screen (with the flimsy type cover providing little in the way of counterweight), this is going to always be a massive problem for MS and their efforts to have people see the Surface as a viable replacement for their laptops.

I was literally about to post how I don't understand this "lapability" issue at all. And here was your post.

I'm am literally sitting in almost the exact same position as you are right now. I'm leaning up in the corner of my sectional with a pillow for back support, feet on the coffee table, typing on my surface pro battery cover.

I have used my surface pro on the airplane, I've used it in bed, I've used it on my bus ride home from work. It is literally the best device I have ever used in this department, why you ask? The kickstand is awesome. My rMBP would literally get hot to the touch in my lap to the point I would put it somewhere else. With the surface, what little heat that is generated is never near the bottom. My iPad? Don't even bother, you have to hold it the whole time.(BTW anyone want a white first generation retina pad? With Verizon LTE, I'm selling because I don't use it anymore, you can guess why) With this thing I can literally let it sit without holding it and its perfectly stable. If I'm just browsing I take the keyboard off if I want, but since I'm arguing with people on GAF, I have it on now. ;-)

Works perfectly fine, the thing is, its a triangle, with the weight distributed to the kickstand and the bottom of the bezel. A few minutes ago my wife's miniature dachshund literally jumped over my lap, I didn't even reach for the surface because if it hit it screen side it would have just dug the kickstand into my legs and done nothing.

I would contend that anyone that thinks it doesn't work or is "flimsy" has either never used one, or is super paranoid about their device. All that said, I still don't understand people's issue with the lapability, just freaking use one and see for yourself.

 

[royalan]

Of course they're asking people to replace their tablets. The point is that you're replacing your tablet and your laptop at the same time. The tablet part is a given though.

And if a tablet isn't the perfect lounging computer device then I don't what is. Typing on an on-screen keyboard propped up against my legs is far more ergonomic than resting my palms on my nipples. I'd rather use a phone than a laptop in that position.

I think the issue with the first paragraph is that MS is fixated on the idea that people get equal use out of both their tablets and laptops, such that they can force trade-offs with the laptop experience and prop up the tablet functionality as a sort of band-aid. I don't think that works (and so far it hasn't worked), not at the price. When people consider the Surface, the first question they're presented with is, "will this be a suitable replacement for my laptop?" And that's where all the little things like being able to curl up with the device and still have access to a physical keyboard come into play. So, for most people, the answer to that initial question is "no." Which then leaves price to be considered for most folks who still have some interest in the device (like me). And at this price-range, the Surface just isn't a major value proposition when I don't feel that it could adequately replacement my laptop. And at this price the tablet features don't matter because for me, and I wager a lot of people, tablets are still primarily entertainment/consumption/distraction devices that don't substantially improve workflow. So the tradeoff isn't worth it...again, at that price.

Also, typing on my laptop in this position is infinitely more comfortable than typing more than a sentence on an on-screen keyboard. Trust me, I'm more comfortable typing in this position than it may look to you...if I weren't I'd just use my tablet. lol

I'm am literally sitting in almost the exact same position as you are right now. I'm leaning up in the corner of my sectional with a pillow for back support, feet on the coffee table, typing on my surface pro battery cover.

Would you mind taking a picture of this? Because I literally cannot even picture how this would work.

 

[Zabka]

I just wonder if the whole "lapability" thing is a bit overblown. I understand for tech journalists it's a big thing, because they are constantly sardine-canned into conferences with seats and no tables, and I'm sure there are other people in unrelated circumstances who also constantly need lap use...but I can't think of the last time I personally wasn't using a table or flat surface of some kind for my laptops. Am I alone on this?

Nope. The only places that I regularly see it are airports and waiting rooms.

You could always just lay it flat and type on the screen. Works fine with every other tablet on the market.

 

[Windu]

I don't think it's overblown at all. It's actually a huge issue. The problem is the term "lapability" has become such a common 'catch-all' word for the problem that its actually made the problem look narrower than it actually is.

The problem with the Surface isn't just "lapability." It's, "anything-that's-not-a-completely-flat-stable-surfaceability" The Surface just isn't designed to be comfortably used in any scenerio that isn't a flat, desk-like surface. And when you get into the price-range the Surface is in, and you're expecting people to replace their laptops with this thing, little things like this become vitally important to the perception of the device.

For example: here's a shameless selfie I took earlier today:

It's Saturday, my day off, my feet are propped up on the coffee table, I've got movies playing on my TV and I have no intention of changing out of my PJs or even leaving my couch. This is how I sit with my laptop. This would literally not be possible with the Surface. And my roommate has me beat with all the goofy ways she sits propped up with her laptop. Sitting with my laptop propped up on the couch, on the bad, on a blanket at the park, with your legs crossed. It's not just the black and white of being suited for being used on either a table or your perfectly still lap, it's everything in between. These are all common ways that people use their laptops, and the Surface is suited for none of it.

And I suppose you could say that this is where the Surface shines as a tablet, but most people STILL want access to a physical keyboard in these positions. And that's important, because MS isn't asking people to replace their tablet with a Surface, they're asking them to replace their laptops, and at a pretty steep price, to boot.

As long as the weight of the Surface lies in it's screen (with the flimsy type cover providing little in the way of counterweight), this is going to always be a massive problem for MS and their efforts to have people see the Surface as a viable replacement for their laptops.

I use it as a tablet in situations like that.

 

[Zabka]

I think the issue with the first paragraph is that MS is fixated on the idea that people get equal use out of both their tablets and laptops, such that they can force trade-offs with the laptop experience and prop up the tablet functionality as a sort of band-aid. I don't think that works (and so far it hasn't worked), not at the price. When people consider the Surface, the first question they're presented with is, "will this be a suitable replacement for my laptop?" And that's where all the little things like being able to curl up with the device and still have access to a physical keyboard come into play. So, for most people, the answer to that initial question is "no." Which then leaves price to be considered for most folks who still have some interest in the device (like me). And at this price-range, the Surface just isn't a major value proposition when I don't feel that it could adequately replacement my laptop. And at this price the tablet features don't matter because for me, and I wager a lot of people, tablets are still primarily entertainment/consumption/distraction devices that don't substantially improve workflow. So the tradeoff isn't worth it...again, at that price.

Also, typing on my laptop in this position is infinitely more comfortable than typing more than a sentence on an on-screen keyboard. Trust me, I'm more comfortable typing in this position than it may look to you...if I weren't I'd just use my tablet. lol



Would you mind taking a picture of this? Because I literally cannot even picture how this would work.

Curling up with a device is what tablets are built for, but if you're more comfortable typing like a T-Rex then by all means continue. After using iPads my typing speed using a screen vs using a keyboard is fairly similar.

I just tried using your typing position and I could feel the tendons in my wrist stretching in disagreement.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I don't think it's overblown at all. It's actually a huge issue. The problem is the term "lapability" has become such a common 'catch-all' word for the problem that its actually made the problem look narrower than it actually is.

The problem with the Surface isn't just "lapability." It's, "anything-that's-not-a-completely-flat-stable-surfaceability" The Surface just isn't designed to be comfortably used in any scenerio that isn't a flat, desk-like surface. And when you get into the price-range the Surface is in, and you're expecting people to replace their laptops with this thing, little things like this become vitally important to the perception of the device.

For example: here's a shameless selfie I took earlier today:

It's Saturday, my day off, my feet are propped up on the coffee table, I've got movies playing on my TV and I have no intention of changing out of my PJs or even leaving my couch. This is how I sit with my laptop. This would literally not be possible with the Surface. And my roommate has me beat with all the goofy ways she sits propped up with her laptop. Sitting with my laptop propped up on the couch, on the bad, on a blanket at the park, with your legs crossed. It's not just the black and white of being suited for being used on either a table or your perfectly still lap, it's everything in between. These are all common ways that people use their laptops, and the Surface is suited for none of it.

And I suppose you could say that this is where the Surface shines as a tablet, but most people STILL want access to a physical keyboard in these positions. And that's important, because MS isn't asking people to replace their tablet with a Surface, they're asking them to replace their laptops, and at a pretty steep price, to boot.

As long as the weight of the Surface lies in it's screen (with the flimsy type cover providing little in the way of counterweight), this is going to always be a massive problem for MS and their efforts to have people see the Surface as a viable replacement for their laptops.

id rather have a tablet in that position personally.

if im typing stuff up in that position, id rather have a bluetooth keyboard and a tablet, then have the tablet facing me on a table.

 

[royalan]

Curling up with a device is what tablets are built for, but if you're more comfortable typing like a T-Rex then by all means continue. After using iPads my typing speed using a screen vs using a keyboard is fairly similar.

I just tried using your typing position and I could feel the tendons in my wrist stretching in disagreement.

Hey, it works for me. I'm churning out these posts at around 70 WPM from this very position.

And it's not just this position, sometimes I lay out on my couch with my laptop literally hanging off the edge. Surface couldn't do this. Or the steps of my back porch. Surface couldn't do this, either. Or sitting on an uneven patch of grass in the park--maybe the Surface could handle this one, but would it be able to provide a stable typing experience? I doubt it. As long as the Surface's center of gravity remains in its screen, and not parallel to whatever surface it's on, it won't be as stable an experience as even a basic laptop/ultrabook.

And the thing is, I'm not even a MS/Surface hater. I've wanted one of these things since day 1. I believe there is a sizeable market for this sort of thing...again, just not for that price. At this price range I need to feel like the Surface could replace my laptop in every conceivable way (the tablet features only serving as the cherry on top). And MS (and Surface defenders) are doing themselves no favors by pretending that the trade-offs aren't significant. Every iteration of this device will flop until they get that.

 

[captive]

Would you mind taking a picture of this? Because I literally cannot even picture how this would work.

Negative ghostrider, pattern is full. I'm in my boxers and not getting dressed.

But as I said almost in the same position. As others have mentioned you could easily rest the surface on your stomach in that position.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

For example: here's a shameless selfie I took earlier today:

It's Saturday, my day off, my feet are propped up on the coffee table, I've got movies playing on my TV and I have no intention of changing out of my PJs or even leaving my couch. This is how I sit with my laptop. This would literally not be possible with the Surface. And my roommate has me beat with all the goofy ways she sits propped up with her laptop. Sitting with my laptop propped up on the couch, on the bad, on a blanket at the park, with your legs crossed. It's not just the black and white of being suited for being used on either a table or your perfectly still lap, it's everything in between. These are all common ways that people use their laptops, and the Surface is suited for none of it.

I agree that there are inherent design problems but that ironically looks uncomfortable compared to a tablet, a smartphone, or maybe a surface with the keyboard flipped back? You don't sit up straight and type stuff out?

 

[Zabka]

Hey, it works for me. I'm churning out these posts at around 70 WPM from this very position.

And it's not just this position, sometimes I lay out on my couch with my laptop literally hanging off the edge. Surface couldn't do this. Or the steps of my back porch. Surface couldn't do this, either. Or sitting on an uneven patch of grass in the park--maybe the Surface could handle this one, but would it be able to provide a stable typing experience? I doubt it. As long as the Surface's center of gravity remains in its screen, and not parallel to whatever surface is its on, it won't be as stable an experience as even a basic laptop/ultrabook.

And the thing is, I'm not even a MS/Surface hater. I've wanted one of these things since day 1. I believe there is a sizeable market for this sort of thing...again, just not for that price. At this price range I need to feel like the Surface could replace my laptop in every conceivable way (the tablet features only serving as the cherry on top). And MS (and Surface defenders) are doing themselves no favors by pretending that the trade-offs aren't significant. Every iteration of this device will flop until they get that.

I think you're in the minority of laptop users since you're doing some stock photo posing with it. For most situations I would lay it flat and type on the screen outside of the 95% of the time I'm near a desk/table.

My usage concerns are classrooms, offices, coffee shop. Like I said before, if I'm lounging around I vastly prefer not having the keyboard and that's why Surface (and similar devices) are attractive to me.

Not directly related to this discussion, but I recently set up a client with a Venue Pro 11. It's actually very nice for the price, but it solidified in my mind how much I hate keyboard docks for tablets. Nothing feels worse than a device that's got a battery in the keyboard and the screen.

 

[royalan]

I agree that there are inherent design problems but that ironically looks uncomfortable compared to a tablet, a smartphone, or maybe a surface with the keyboard flipped back? You don't sit up straight and type stuff out?

If I have to type out more than a few paragraphs of course I do. I'll either sit up with the laptop squarely in my lap, or I'll place the laptop next to me on the couch and turn to the side, again, a position the Surface would not work at all in.

I think you're in the minority of laptop users since you're doing some stock photo posing with it. For most situations I would lay it flat and type on the screen outside of the 95% of the time I'm near a desk/table.

My usage concerns are classrooms, offices, coffee shop. Like I said before, if I'm lounging around I vastly prefer not having the keyboard and that's why Surface (and similar devices) are attractive to me.

Not directly related to this discussion, but I recently set up a client with a Venue Pro 11. It's actually very nice for the price, but it solidified in my mind how much I hate keyboard docks for tablets. Nothing feels worse than a device that's got a battery in the keyboard and the screen.

LOL - not stock photo posing. I have literally been in this position most of the day...that was kind of the point of the selfie, actually.

Also, maybe I'm in the minority when it comes to this specific position; however, I don't think I'm in the minority when it comes to people who don't see that type of flexibility in the Surface. And for people like me, on-screen keyboards just aren't an option. I think there are a lot of people like me. We're in gen 3 and MS still hasn't been able to sell this to the public as a viable laptop replacement--despite that being the primary focus of much of their marketing.

 

[Schlep]

You know, if I'm going to use this to play games, it'll be at home. There, I'll just use Steam streaming to push games from my desktop to the Surface and not worry about limitations due to hardware. I don't really play games away from home because I just don't have time when I'm out and about and if I have my tablet with me, it's to pull up files for work and access a secure network to upload pictures and signed documents.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the iPad games specifically. Steam and the indie section on this thing are great. I always carry a gamepad with me on the road and play in the hotel room on the TV.

Re: All this lapability stuff, all it takes is seeing someone once on a plane trying to work on a laptop to completely sell the Surface for working in tight spaces. I've literally seen people use the empty middle seat and try to type sideways while I'm perfectly fine.

And I agree about the position in the picture. I'm sitting in a similar position right now without the keyboard on the SP2. Maybe other people have issues with typing on an onscreen keyboard. For me, especially with auto correct turned on, I can type about 75% as fast as I do on a physical keyboard. Absolutely fine for posting on GAF lol. I actually have an easier time typing on this than I ever did on the full size iPad or on the Asus Transformer.

 

[Complex Shadow]

Also, maybe I'm in the minority when it comes to this specific position; however, I don't think I'm in the minority when it comes to people who don't see that type of flexibility in the Surface. And for people like me, on-screen keyboards just aren't an option. I think there are a lot of people like me. We're in gen 3 and MS still hasn't been able to sell this to the public as a viable laptop replacement--despite that being the primary focus of much of their marketing.

your not in the minority if there are alot of people like you. how about you and all the other 3 people like you get together and send a strongly worded email to Microsoft and ask for a detachable keyboard.

 

[royalan]

your not in the minority if there are alot of people like you. how about you and all the other 3 people like you get together and send a strongly worded email to Microsoft and ask for a detachable keyboard.

The tone of this post is funny. It's almost as if you don't realize that the Surface is an under-performing product across 2 gens now.

MS needs to address the real reasons for that instead of thinking that the problem is it's just not pushing its message hard enough.

 

[Zabka]

If I have to type out more than a few paragraphs of course I do. I'll either sit up with the laptop squarely in my lap, or I'll place the laptop next to me on the couch and turn to the side, again, a position the Surface would not work at all in.



LOL - not stock photo posing. I have literally been in this position most of the day...that was kind of the point of the selfie, actually.

Also, maybe I'm in the minority when it comes to this specific position; however, I don't think I'm in the minority when it comes to people who don't see that type of flexibility in the Surface. And for people like me, on-screen keyboards just aren't an option. I think there are a lot of people like me. We're in gen 3 and MS still hasn't been able to sell this to the public as a viable laptop replacement--despite that being the primary focus of much of their marketing.

Then why are you interested in a Surface? Why not get a Yoga 2 Pro?

 

[royalan]

Then why get a Surface? Why not get a Yoga 2 Pro?

That's exactly the question for me. My laptop has still got some juice in it, but when it comes time to upgrade I was really hoping that MS would whip the Surface line into something that feels like a true laptop replacement. Because I love W8 and I think Surface, at its core, is a great showcase for it...just, not at that price. At that price I can't ignore the trade-offs I'm being asked to swallow, and the tablet functionality isn't SO important to me that it works as a salve.

Heck, even if the low-end model were slightly beefier in spec I could consider it.

Honestly, when it comes time for a Surface 4 (and somehow, I think MS will push ahead at least one more gen on these things), I think that if they just bit the bullet on their "thinest and lightest EVAR!" mantra and made the type cover slightly beefier and gave it a studier way to attach to the screen so that it could support its weight, I think that would go a long way towards making the Surface present to the public as the type of device MS wants it to.

 

[Complex Shadow]

The tone of this post is funny. It's almost as if you don't realize that the Surface is an under-performing product across 2 gens now.

MS needs to address the real reasons for that instead of thinking that the problem is it's just not pushing its message hard enough.

4th gen intel with almost 9 hours of battary life with 8 gb of memory and its "under-performing"

 

[royalan]

4th gen intel with almost 9 hours of battary life with 8 gb of memory and its "under-performing"

I was referring to its sales.

 

[Schlep]

Honestly, when it comes time for a Surface 4 (and somehow, I think MS will push ahead at least one more gen on these things), I think that if they just bit the bullet on their "thinest and lightest EVAR!" mantra and made the type cover slightly beefier and gave it a studier way to attach to the screen so that it could support its weight, I think that would go a long way towards making the Surface present to the public as the type of device MS wants it to.

What you're asking for is just a laptop. As a Surface owner, this update addresses everything that I think most fans were looking for. The screen is a bit bigger, making it feel a little less claustrophobic without an additional monitor. The weight is reduced and now within the 'tablet' range. The kickstand offers a lot more flexibility, especially the 150 degree angle that looks perfect for laps.

Maybe the device will never have huge sales, but this is as close as they've come to delivering on their idea. This update is so compelling to me, that I'm legitimately considering selling the SP2 and dock I just bought at Christmas to get it, even without Broadwell.

 

[Zabka]

That's exactly the question for me. My laptop has still got some juice in it, but when it comes time to upgrade I was really hoping that MS would whip the Surface line into something that feels like a true laptop replacement. Because I love W8 and I think Surface, at its core, is a great showcase for it...just, not at that price. At that price I can't ignore the trade-offs I'm being asked to swallow, and the tablet functionality isn't SO important to me that it works as a salve.

Heck, even if the low-end model were slightly beefier in spec I could consider it.

Honestly, when it comes time for a Surface 4 (and somehow, I think MS will push ahead at least one more gen on these things), I think that if they just bit the bullet on their "thinest and lightest EVAR!" mantra and made the type cover slightly beefier and gave it a studier way to attach to the screen so that it could support its weight, I think that would go a long way towards making the Surface present to the public as the type of device MS wants it to.

If your criteria is a laptop keyboard then there's really no replacement besides a laptop or a laptop hybrid design. Any kind of laptop keyboard dock has to be heavy to counteract the weight of the screen and believe me, you don't want one of those.

Well, maybe you might like the Thinkpad Helix but the weight of the entire unit is 3.8 lbs.

 

[Complex Shadow]

I was referring to its sales.

well in that case, they are trying to fix the problem. they've changed the hinge twice now. theyve also tried to fix the type cover. what you want is a laptop. your problem with the surface seems to be "why isn't this a laptop". Yes microsft keeps tripping over its own feet when trying to market this thing, but you should look at it for what it is. its a laptop-like device. its not a laptop, nor is it ever going to be one. you dont want that, i understand, people who like the feel of laptops will continue to buy laptops. If you need help finding out what kind of laptop you want. you could try

2014-2015 Gaming Laptop Thread

 

[royalan]

If your criteria is a laptop keyboard then there's really no replacement besides a laptop or a laptop hybrid design. Any kind of laptop keyboard dock has to be heavy to counteract the weight of the screen and believe me, you don't want one of those.

Well, maybe you might like the Thinkpad Helix but the weight of the entire unit is 3.8 lbs.

well in that case, they are trying to fix the problem. they've changed the hinge twice now. theyve also tried to fix the type cover. what you want is a laptop. your problem with the surface seems to be "why isn't this a laptop". Yes microsft keeps tripping over its own feet when trying to market this thing, but you should look at it for what it is. its a laptop-like device. its not a laptop, nor is it ever going to be one. you dont want that, i understand, people who like the feel of laptops will continue to buy laptops. If you need help finding out what kind of laptop you want. you could try

2014-2015 Gaming Laptop Thread

What you're asking for is just a laptop. As a Surface owner, this update addresses everything that I think most fans were looking for. The screen is a bit bigger, making it feel a little less claustrophobic without an additional monitor. The weight is reduced and now within the 'tablet' range. The kickstand offers a lot more flexibility, especially the 150 degree angle that looks perfect for laps.

Maybe the device will never have huge sales, but this is as close as they've come to delivering on their idea. This update is so compelling to me, that I'm legitimately considering selling the SP2 and dock I just bought at Christmas to get it, even without Broadwell.

I suppose you guys are right. I keep holding out for a Surface, and I was really looking forward to a different approach with gen 3, but that was too much to expect. Thanks for pushing me to a Yoga, guys!

Spoiler

I kid with the passive aggression

I'm not going to continue posting in here. I've said my piece, and I think there just comes a point where you're not offering a valuable alternative viewpoint, and are instead just ruining other people's enjoyment of their product. But I will say that I do think there is a more perfect device somewhere in the muck between the Surface's "thinest/lightest...with expensive compromises" approach and overly bulky approach of the Thinkpad Helix and other bulky W8 hybrid devices. And I think MS is potentially the closest to making that device a reality...but I think they gotta dial it back a bit on what they seem to want the Surface to be, and make it more something the public actually wants. It's like the situation with Xbox One, except MS seems even less willing to compromise here. But they're going to have to, if they want to general public to bite.

 

[Solideliquid]

Seriously considering drinking the cool aid here and selling my 4.5 pound rMBP and getting the SP3. How are movies on the 3x2 aspect though. On the iPads 4x3 aspect movies are horrible to watch with huge black bars above and below. Watching tv shows is not as bad.

 

[Schlep]

Seriously considering drinking the cool aid here and selling my 4.5 pound rMBP and getting the SP3. How are movies on the 3x2 aspect though. On the iPads 4x3 aspect movies are horrible to watch with huge black bars above and below. Watching tv shows is not as bad.

Looks like an inch or so black bar on the top and bottom going by this video. At about 5:45 in he's watching a full screen vid on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luzVREc9OQE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Totakeke]

Another argument of ergonomics dwelling into device prices, then into how poor the device has sold? It has gotten a bit predictable guys.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I'm utterly shocked at these reviewers' continued hatred toward the keyboard and kickstand. The SP3, thanks to the variable kickstand and stability-improving magnetic edge lock, are OBJECTIVELY better than the SP1 or SP2 in regard to usage ergonomics, and works just fine in basically any scenario I can conceive. "The kickstand digs into my legs"? Are they using this device in the nude? Are they completely unable to adjust to slightly different sized keys?

My review of this device would read very different from these folks.

The problem is, sometimes when you improve an aspect of a product you draw more attention to it. If you don't 100% fix the issue, it can work against you.

Personally, I don't really like the Type Cover as a solution at all and wouldn't buy one. The way I see it if it only really works on a desk or table, then I might as well use a small bluetooth keyboard which has way more flexibility to be placed ergonomically than a thing that has to be attached to the device. If ever need to use it in my lap, the new kickstand angle seems really good for the software keyboard.

My ideal use would be at my desk with the Surface kicked back in the drawing angle, pen in my right hand and my left hand on a bluetooth keyboard off to the side for shortcuts. I have always wanted a "desk computer" like the Apple "Knowledge Navigator" concept or what the original Surface tables kinda were. The Surface Pro 3 is the closest thing I have seen to that really, at least out of the things I could conceivably afford. Hell, I would love a 15" or 17" Surface.

 

[Totakeke]

The greatest benefit of the type cover is mobility. You don't have to think about a separate hardware that you need to carry separately or store differently. I also do understand these comments are also coming from people who want bigger Surface sizes. Prioritizing mobility over usability is not something as acceptable because they can and have been carrying larger size laptops. I myself I'd choose a 12" laptop over a 15" one any day so it's more of a natural upgrade for users like me than people who uses 15" laptops as their daily driver.

 

[Draper]

I need a glowing review of this thing.

Please provide.

 

[Zaptruder]

Hey, it works for me. I'm churning out these posts at around 70 WPM from this very position.

And it's not just this position, sometimes I lay out on my couch with my laptop literally hanging off the edge. Surface couldn't do this. Or the steps of my back porch. Surface couldn't do this, either. Or sitting on an uneven patch of grass in the park--maybe the Surface could handle this one, but would it be able to provide a stable typing experience? I doubt it. As long as the Surface's center of gravity remains in its screen, and not parallel to whatever surface it's on, it won't be as stable an experience as even a basic laptop/ultrabook.

And the thing is, I'm not even a MS/Surface hater. I've wanted one of these things since day 1. I believe there is a sizeable market for this sort of thing...again, just not for that price. At this price range I need to feel like the Surface could replace my laptop in every conceivable way (the tablet features only serving as the cherry on top). And MS (and Surface defenders) are doing themselves no favors by pretending that the trade-offs aren't significant. Every iteration of this device will flop until they get that.

If you actually wanted the device, you'd figure out a way to make it work (given that there aren't that many compromises that one needs to make to do so), rather than rationalize the many trivial ways in which you can't perceive it to work.

 

[Totakeke]

Here's another post on Wacom vs. N-Trig.

http://www.ticktakashi.com/2014/05/wacom-vs-n-trig-modern-comparison.html

Pressure Sensitivity

N-Trig devices have 256 Levels of pressure, while Wacom devices can range from 512 all the way up to 2048. As far as numbers go, its is clear to see that in this regard Wacom devices are superior. However, it is important for us to understand what it means to have more levels of pressure. Having more than 256 levels of pressure only makes a difference if you are working with brush that is above size 256. In other words:

When drawing with a Brush size that is lower than 256, there is no difference in sensitivity between Wacom and N-Trig

This is an important concept for people to grasp, because most artists do not work with brush sizes above 256. Furthermore, the difference does not become easily perceptible for a little while after that.

Some professions will require large brushes. For example: someone who is working on a poster that is going to be blown up to billboard sizes (and aren't using vectors) will definitely need a tool with higher than 256 Levels of pressure.

While the levels of pressure do not make difference to most artists, there are some other factors that do. The most important two are: The Pressure Curve and IAF - Initial Activation Force.

In mathematical terms: the Pressure curve is a function which translates your physical pressure (pounds of force) into virtual pressure. A steep pressure curve will mean that small modifications in your physical force will have drastic effects on the line that appears on screen.

The default pressure curve on Wacom devices is often described as more natural than the N-Trig curve. Furthermore, Wacom devices allow modification of the pressure curve to suit individual needs while N-Trig has no easy method of modifying the default curve.

The other factor, IAF, is the amount of initial force required before marks begin to register. On Wacom devices this is very small, last I checked it was 1 gram of force. For N-Trig devices the IAF is noticeably larger, partially due to the default pressure curve. These two factors are what places Wacom above N-Trig in terms of pressure sensitivity.

Winner: Wacom

Summary

Pressure - Wacom
Accuracy - N-Trig
Hover - Wacom
Delay - Draw
Parallax - N-Trig
Drift & Calibration - N-Trig
Software - Wacom

As you can see, the distinction between the two is not so clear cut. Ultimately, your decision will depend largely on your preferences. If it is invaluable to you that your marks simply appear below your pen, then you may want to consider an N-Trig solution. If you are a dealing with mega resolutions you will need a Wacom device. If you are a 3D artist, Wacom. If you are irritated by Calibration or tend to switch tools often, N-Trig.

From the reactions to the SP3 yesterday, it is clear to me that the N-Trig vs Wacom debate is often driven more by historical prejudice than unbiased comparison. It is important for people to select tools based on merit rather than prejudice. Personally I am going to wait an see how the Surface Pro 3s digitizer holds up before deciding that it's the end of the universe.

Microsoft did already say that they are going to release an update to calibrate your pressure curve for SP3.

 

[Fahrenheit]

I was set on getting a Yoga but the new surface looks really good

 

[royalan]

If you actually wanted the device, you'd figure out a way to make it work (given that there aren't that many compromises that one needs to make to do so), rather than rationalize the many trivial ways in which you can't perceive it to work.

Ummmm...no. That's not how budgets work.

Maybe if I had infinite disposable income, I'd just go out and drop $1,600 on this thing. And I almost did. But my cash reserves are finite, I have a unpredictable future to plan for, and a perfectly fine laptop right now. If I'm going to spend that kind of money on a device I don't technically need, I need to feel as though it is in every way worth the money through the convenience it will provide me. I currently don't feel that way. I'm not spending $1,600 on a device I feel I have to "make work."

Which is a shame, because I ultimately do want to support MS, W8 and the Surface. MS needs to realize that there are a lot of people out there like me who they continue to flip the bird to.

 

[Zaptruder]

Ummmm...no. That's not how budgets work.

Maybe if I had infinite disposable income, I'd just go out and drop $1,600 on this thing. And I almost did. But my cash reserves are finite, I have a unpredictable future to plan for, and a perfectly fine laptop right now. If I'm going to spend that kind of money on a device I don't technically need, I need to feel as though it is in every way worth the money through the convenience it will provide me. I currently don't feel that way. I'm not spending $1,600 on a device I feel I have to "make work."

Which is a shame, because I ultimately do want to support MS, W8 and the Surface. MS needs to realize that there are a lot of people out there like me who they continue to flip the bird to.

So you can't afford it, and you're trying to rationalize why you don't want it.

That's fair enough.

I'm not saying that your points are invalid - but they're really minor (unless you primarily use laptops and tablets in such awkward positions - and really can't figure out a way to move your body to support it as required), and thus strike me as excuses to distance yourself from buying the device.

For me, the price is also a factor - the functionality that it provides insufficient to warrant the cost to me. (I'd mainly use it to scribble + read books. But any tablet is sufficient for the latter task, while the former isn't really worth (SP3 cost - simple tablet costs) to me. Even if I am a designer by trade.

 

[royalan]

So you can't afford it, and you're trying to rationalize why you don't want it.

That's fair enough.

I'm not saying that your points are invalid - but they're really minor (unless you primarily use laptops and tablets in such awkward positions - and really can't figure out a way to move your body to support it as required), and thus strike me as excuses to distance yourself from buying the device.

For me, the price is also a factor - the functionality that it provides insufficient to warrant the cost to me. (I'd mainly use it to scribble + read books. But any tablet is sufficient for the latter task, while the former isn't really worth SP3 - simple tablet costs to me - even if I am a designer by trade.

??? I just told you I could order one right now if I wanted to, and still have enough money to keep my bills paid without dipping into my savings. Being able to afford something is not reason enough to buy it, even if there's some initial interest. So, no, you don't get it. Something tells me that MS doesn't get this, either.

And these issues aren't minor, I'm willing to bet that they're a huge factor with the public not accepting the Surface (certainly can't say people don't know about the Surface with the way MS spammed all those ads for months straight).

Just like with the word "lapability" and people literally being fixated on laps, you're so fixated on the one picture I posted of how I lounge on the couch with my laptop that you're completely ignoring the grander point I was making with it: the Surface, with its keyboard, just doesn't provide the same flexibility and easy-of-use as other devices with keyboards, in any number of ways. And for MS the excuse seems to be, "well, in those cases you can use it as a tablet!" but at that price hardly anybody is thinking about using it as a tablet. At that price people are going to expect a true laptop replacement.

 

[BeforeU]

I still cant believe how they managed to put i7 in that tiny machine. Its an incredible product. I am still using my Surface without any complaints. I dont think I will ever buy any other laptop/tablet after using Surface. Specially if you are a student, this is no brainer.

 

[Two Words]

I'm of the mindset that laptops are already so thin now that they are worth lugging around for heavy use if the goal is creating, and not only consuming. The keyboard cover is a smart idea, but ultimately feels like a compromise. I'd rather Microsoft focus on making a full laptop that rivals the MacBook Pro at a more affordable price. When you're spending nearly $2000 on a laptop, you begin to care a lot more about the finer details, and Apple is one of the few companies that shows a lot of care in those cases.

 

[Slayer-33]

I still cant believe how they managed to put i7 in that tiny machine. Its an incredible product. I am still using my Surface without any complaints. I dont think I will ever buy any other laptop/tablet after using Surface. Specially if you are a student, this is no brainer.

Must be delicious

I'm of the mindset that laptops are already so thin now that they are worth lugging around for heavy use if the goal is creating, and not only consuming. The keyboard cover is a smart idea, but ultimately feels like a compromise. I'd rather Microsoft focus on making a full laptop that rivals the MacBook Pro at a more affordable price. When you're spending nearly $2000 on a laptop, you begin to care a lot more about the finer details, and Apple is one of the few companies that shows a lot of care in those cases.

What's wrong with all the productivity and portability of a Surface? Does anything really match it combining both cats?

 

[Two Words]

What's wrong with all the productivity and portability of a Surface?

Well I come at it from the angle of a programming student. So I think I may have a higher priority to keyboard quality and flexible functionality.

But even as a regular computer user, I feel like I'd want a laptop first, and maybe a tablet as well if I consume a lot of content. But I don't want the tablet experience to compromise the laptop experience, which I believe Surface does.

 

[Totakeke]

Their goal has never been to replace all your Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP etc. products with Microsoft branded ones. Asking for a Surface Laptop means you just want something already existing but better and cheaper which they have never stated they wanted to do.

If the best windows laptop is a Macbook, so be it, and they're fine with that.

 

[LukasTaves]

I think lapability matters to the exact audience they are selling to. People who need to move their laptop between a conference room, studio and on-the-go.

I dunno, thinking about it it even sounds like a made up issue... To make myself clear, yeah, you can type from a laptop on your lap very well. But if work requires mouse usage using a laptop on your lap is also a fucking disgrace because trackpads are horrible compared to mouse, but they just ignore it when they say they can work from your lap, and also ignores that for many applications, specially for touch enabled ones a touch screen would run circles in usability compared to touch pad.

What I mean to say is: Working from your lap is already a compromise, even with a laptop. Laptops might be better to type when your lap, but a device like surface would be better to other types of work in your lap, but for reviewers it's like only typing that matters.

I don't think it's overblown at all. It's actually a huge issue. The problem is the term "lapability" has become such a common 'catch-all' word for the problem that its actually made the problem look narrower than it actually is.

The problem with the Surface isn't just "lapability." It's, "anything-that's-not-a-completely-flat-stable-surfaceability" The Surface just isn't designed to be comfortably used in any scenerio that isn't a flat, desk-like surface. And when you get into the price-range the Surface is in, and you're expecting people to replace their laptops with this thing, little things like this become vitally important to the perception of the device.

For example: here's a shameless selfie I took earlier today:

It's Saturday, my day off, my feet are propped up on the coffee table, I've got movies playing on my TV and I have no intention of changing out of my PJs or even leaving my couch. This is how I sit with my laptop. This would literally not be possible with the Surface. And my roommate has me beat with all the goofy ways she sits propped up with her laptop. Sitting with my laptop propped up on the couch, on the bad, on a blanket at the park, with your legs crossed. It's not just the black and white of being suited for being used on either a table or your perfectly still lap, it's everything in between. These are all common ways that people use their laptops, and the Surface is suited for none of it.

And I suppose you could say that this is where the Surface shines as a tablet, but most people STILL want access to a physical keyboard in these positions. And that's important, because MS isn't asking people to replace their tablet with a Surface, they're asking them to replace their laptops, and at a pretty steep price, to boot.

As long as the weight of the Surface lies in it's screen (with the flimsy type cover providing little in the way of counterweight), this is going to always be a massive problem for MS and their efforts to have people see the Surface as a viable replacement for their laptops.

I have a surface pro 1, and honestly it's much more comfortable to use in a position like this than any laptop I ever had, because from that position the touch screen is a much better input device than a keyboard + trackpad. I can only imagine having a bigger screen and more angles on the hinge is going to make things better. I can type short texts, read a book, review presentations, and even do some light coding...

Unless you are saying you can actually produce anything meaningful from that position. Because then okay, you have a point. I couldn't for instance work like that all day on mine and actually have a productive day.

 

[Draper]

My 2012 macbook air is still going strong, so I can't imagine me needing both...but I really want the surface...hmmmm

 

[Shogmaster]

Here's another post on Wacom vs. N-Trig.

http://www.ticktakashi.com/2014/05/wacom-vs-n-trig-modern-comparison.html


N-Trig devices have 256 Levels of pressure, while Wacom devices can range from 512 all the way up to 2048. As far as numbers go, its is clear to see that in this regard Wacom devices are superior. However, it is important for us to understand what it means to have more levels of pressure. Having more than 256 levels of pressure only makes a difference if you are working with brush that is above size 256. In other words:

When drawing with a Brush size that is lower than 256, there is no difference in sensitivity between Wacom and N-Trig

This is an important concept for people to grasp, because most artists do not work with brush sizes above 256. Furthermore, the difference does not become easily perceptible for a little while after that.

Some professions will require large brushes. For example: someone who is working on a poster that is going to be blown up to billboard sizes (and aren't using vectors) will definitely need a tool with higher than 256 Levels of pressure..

HOOOO~boy, That 256 levels of pressure is OK because of 256 pixel brushes thing is a doozy! Reminds of DC v PS2 days fanboy tech talk that said something like having more than 400,000 pixels per frame is waste because it's more than available pixels for SD NTSC talk. It's pure nonsense.

Max amount of pixels that you use with a brush has nothing at all to do with why 256 levels of pressure is more than enough. It's certainly doesn't neatly correspond to pixel per level. That's like saying you don't need more than 300 horsepower for a sportscar because your gas tank will only give you 300 mile max range. One thing is not related directly to the other.

I made a long but simple to understand post about why pressure levels don't matter already in this thread. Don't need to refer to this kind of wacky reasoning.


BTW, it's easy to use brushes bigger than 256. In fact this is why I stopped using kiddy programs like Sketchbook "Pro", which limits it's brush sizes to 200 or 256 pixels.

I do car sketches on 5000x3000 canvas on my T902. I try to maximize the whole car on that canvas. When you do that, you often have door panels that are over 800~900 pixels tall. When applying airbrush gradient to that, you need to make the brush size bigger than the area you are covering because you don't want to make stripes of gradient that will make that panel look wavy. I often use 1000 pixel wide airbrush. Manga Studio 5 and Photoshop let you get to 2000 pixels max on brushes for reasons...