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[Shogmaster]

I wonder if ArtRage has MS Pen API

Yes it uses MS Pen API. That's why out of the box on VAIO N-Trig tablets it has pressure sensitivity.

But more importantly, Manga Studio 5/Clip Studio Paint does as well. MS5/CSP has the best brush engine finesse bar none. Makes ArtRage brushes feel like MS Paint almost.

 

[Nero3000]

While it's impressively thin, it still has vents (and a fan?)

What does having a vent and a fan have to do with the size?

Also some of the saliant points from that NTRIG post:

WinTab Support

WinTab: yes we have wintab driver support. See the link below to download and install it for pro3. In the future I hope apps start using the more modern APIs.. Wintab is old and outdated.. adds latency, and inserts itself in the pen path.. http://www.ntrig.com/Content.aspx?Page=Downloads_Drivers select the windows 8.1 option.

Force Curves

With any new stylus there is a difference in the force curve that you have to get used to… and that is likely what people will notice.. not the difference in bit resolution. We are going to make that easier for you by later giving you a piece of software that allows you to map your own force curve!

Pressure differences

I took the best known a EM based device I know of and compared it to Pro 3.

I started by first downloading and installing a Microsoft PowerTool software called “digiInfo”.. this allows you to record and see Windows messages… I set the software to record pressure on both device. And then a built a small rig to hold the stylus above the digitizer with a about 50 grams downward pressure. Recorded the data of the static pressure.. imported to excel and did some statistics.. here is what I saw:

the 1024 pressure tip static-pressure-number had a standard deviation 3 times greater than that of the 256 pressure tip.

In end, the performance was the same.. eventhough one had 2 bits less reported info. This makes a lot of sense.. let me put it another way.

The Pro 3 pen measures from 10grams-400 grams of pressure and maps 256 levels to that… the mapping is nonlinear.. cause the human hand force activation is non-linear… but one can approximate about 1-1.8 grams per level.

The 10 bit pen.. goes from 10-500 grams.. and supposedly does about ~0.4 grams. Think about both those numbers and that is both super super sensitive.. the best weight scale I have can do .1 gram increments…. The only reason it works is cause it averages the heck out of the numbers which adds a considerable amount of lag.. this lag one cannot do on a stylus.. so you are stuck with a nosier signal comparatively in a stylus.

Hover Lag

We have one caveat during hover.. while our latency is still best in class when you are inking, you may notice a bit of a lag during hover.. but only during hover mode..

 

[michaelius]

Hmm anyone knows what might be easiest way to get one in Eastern Europe ?

 

[Slayer-33]

I want it BAD guys.

BAD BAD BAD

 

[IsntChrisL]

What kind of video editing are you guys doing that you would want to make on a tablet? Vines? I can't think of any video project I'd want to edit on a tablet.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

What kind of video editing are you guys doing that you would want to make on a tablet? Vines? I can't think of any video project I'd want to edit on a tablet.

I believe that's where the 'laptop' part of the Surface is appealing.

I want something with the guts to do film editing on (that I can hook up a second monitor to), whilst still being able to then decide to go relax on the lounge and do some storyboarding/concept art in Photoshop with my stylus.

 

[Nero3000]

Hmm anyone knows what might be easiest way to get one in Eastern Europe ?

Order from the UK MS Store (who i think will ship EU wide) or Ebay from US (thats how i got my Pro1).

 

[TxdoHawk]

Since there's a lot of SP1/SP2 owners here, I have a quick question: How many of you have made an effort to use a Surface Pro without one of the covers, and how did it go?

When I poked at the SP2 months ago, the touchscreen keyboard experience didn't seem great, especially on the desktop side. Given my use cases though, it's sorely tempting to get a tiny bluetooth keyboard and mouse instead of a cover, for the times I'd actually want a kb/m.

Just wondering if anybody has tried this, and if you just wound up buying a Type Cover anyway when it was all said and done, or if this worked out well.

My only real hangup about grabbing SP3 is that resolution. I wish they'd just stuck with 1080 and kept the performance better, the extra resolution can't really add that much?

Indeed, but unfortunately it seems high-res displays are the new thing for laptop manufacturers to latch onto as a premium feature. It's one of the reasons I'm seriously considering a 2 instead of a 3 now.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I believe that's where the 'laptop' part of the Surface is appealing.

I want something with the guts to do film editing on (that I can hook up a second monitor to), whilst still being able to then decide to go relax on the lounge and do some storyboarding/concept art in Photoshop with my stylus.

Which model are you planning on getting? I'm planning on using mine for the same and will probably splurge on the i7.

 

[Amzin]

My only real hangup about grabbing SP3 is that resolution. I wish they'd just stuck with 1080 and kept the performance better, the extra resolution can't really add that much?

 

[LukasTaves]

I want it BAD guys.

BAD BAD BAD

I feel you, bro.

But I already know I won't be able to pick one up until January

 

[Animator]

My only real hangup about grabbing SP3 is that resolution. I wish they'd just stuck with 1080 and kept the performance better, the extra resolution can't really add that much?

Of course it does. You got much more screen real estate in apps in that resolution.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Of course it does. You got much more screen real estate in apps in that resolution.

And it makes it usable vertically. Never understood why everyone went with 16:9 ratio for tablets. One thing Ipad got right from the start.

 

[Shogmaster]

And it makes it usable vertically. Never understood why everyone went with 16:9 ratio for tablets. One thing Ipad got right from the start.

This was just matter of available LCDs to laptop and tablet ODMs.

I remember back when Wacom had 4:3, 16:10, and no 16:9 digitizer sensor boards. And then when 4:3 LCDs started to disappear, so did Wacom's 4:3 boards. And then when 16:9 LCD started to appear, Wacom made 16:9 boards. And then 16:9 LCD became the norm, they got rid of 16:10 boards.

 

[ElNino]

Since there's a lot of SP1/SP2 owners here, I have a quick question: How many of you have made an effort to use a Surface Pro without one of the covers, and how did it go?

When I poked at the SP2 months ago, the touchscreen keyboard experience didn't seem great, especially on the desktop side. Given my use cases though, it's sorely tempting to get a tiny bluetooth keyboard and mouse instead of a cover, for the times I'd actually want a kb/m.

Just wondering if anybody has tried this, and if you just wound up buying a Type Cover anyway when it was all said and done, or if this worked out well.

While I have Touch and Type covers for my SP, when docked at my desk I use my Logitech keyboard and track pad. In this setup, the SP does all of my required computing and functions as any desktop would for me, with the addition of being able to use the touch screen as well for Metro apps while the desktop is on the external monitor.

When I'm not at my desk I am either using it in tablet mode only in which case I have no issues using the touch screen keyboard or "writing" with the stylus or I am using it with the Type cover and Bluetooth mouse

 

[Shogmaster]

After watching this Thinkpad Tablet 10 video, I keep thinking that the 10" Surface Pros were a flawed from factor and it really should be replaced with a Baytrail unit that works as full Win 8.1 device that is thin and light without fan. That TPT10 is a 1.3 lbs device. Very much a "tablet" size and weight. Add the new infinite angle kickstand to that, and I think it would eliminate most of shitty criticism from the journos that never really gave credit to Core i5 power in such form factor and clamored for more tablet like size and weight.

And maybe this move to 12" for SP3 is part of that realization. You give them a bigger form factor for those who still want Core i5 power, and bring down the 10" down to more tablet like weight.

And then the 8" form factor can be relegated to RT-esque functionality that does not give you desktop at all. RT only retained desktop for Office anyways, so when Office goes to touch interface, voila, no more RT with desktop mess. Keep desktop for full Windows 8.1 on 10" an 12" form factors.

 

[Tablo]

^You're missing the point, Atoms don't compare with the performance and features of the Core processors...
Yeah they could have Atom variants that slot in with the thin RT line, but having a ULV i3-i5-i7 is very liberating and useful.

 

[Shogmaster]

^You're missing the point, Atoms don't compare with the performance and features of the Core processors...
Yeah they could have Atom variants that slot in with the thin RT line, but having a ULV i3-i5-i7 is very liberating and useful.

I think you are missing the point. People who use 10" form factor don't care about power, as the reviews keep focusing on form factor, and sales are still low. 10" Baytrail option let's MS get down to $500~600 price point, which will boost sales, and the idiot journos won't have the size and weight complaint anymore and will have to focus on other more important stuff.

Also, Baytrail Atoms only give up upper end performance to ULV Core processors. For most tasks, I don't think you'll notice the difference. See how much improvement there is from Clovertrail Atom to Baytrail Atom. This means Baytrail Surface Pro will give you all the flexibility of the Core version, and just gives up on upper level performance.

If you want Core Processor liberation, you still have the 12" SP3. This frees up the 10" Surface Pros to get to that iPad like form factor that all journos are judging other tablets by.

BTW, I know all about liberating nature of full X86 CPU in my tablets. My first machine was a 14" convertible Wacom unit running Dothan Pentium M. Now I use a 13" Ivy Bridge full voltage Core i5 running 2.6~3.2GHz with Wacom and 10 pt touch.

 

[TxdoHawk]

10" Baytrail option let's MS get down to $500~600 price point, which will boost sales, and the idiot journos won't have the size and weight complaint anymore and will have to focus on other more important stuff.

They'd just complain about the absence of power instead.

On top of that, I don't see Microsoft getting into a market point like this, it would ruffle way too many OEM feathers. Would be great though. If I could get something like how you describe, with Suface build quality, all-day battery life and the nice new kickstand, I'd be sorely tempted.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Which model are you planning on getting? I'm planning on using mine for the same and will probably splurge on the i7.

Yeah this is going to be my laptop for the next 5 or so years, so I'll be getting the 512 i7. Shit's gonna cost an arm and a leg, though. I'll wait till Christmas time at earliest.

 

[Tablo]

Explain all the people who enjoy the compact power that the Surface Pro 1/2 manifest...
I do see what you're saying now that they've transitioned the pro to a 12" form factor, but the problem is then they have to deal with market perception where people will be like yeah the Atom version is cool, but it sucks at running old software *compared* to the more expensive pro. Even though the newer atoms are fine for most people and continue to improve.

I hope they continue working on Winrt, it's a great secure solution for casual users, the Surface 2 is good, but better hardware/aspect ratio and more apps will tremendously help.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

While I have Touch and Type covers for my SP, when docked at my desk I use my Logitech keyboard and track pad. In this setup, the SP does all of my required computing and functions as any desktop would for me, with the addition of being able to use the touch screen as well for Metro apps while the desktop is on the external monitor.

When I'm not at my desk I am either using it in tablet mode only in which case I have no issues using the touch screen keyboard or "writing" with the stylus or I am using it with the Type cover and Bluetooth mouse

Yeah, I use a wireless keyboard at my desk. The Type Cover I only use when away, really - it's buggy and drives me crazy with how it works with Creative Suite so I use a Wedge Keyboard and wireless mouse at all other times.

 

[bloodydrake]

After watching this Thinkpad Tablet 10 video, I keep thinking that the 10" Surface Pros were a flawed from factor and it really should be replaced with a Baytrail unit that works as full Win 8.1 device that is thin and light without fan. That TPT10 is a 1.3 lbs device. Very much a "tablet" size and weight. Add the new infinite angle kickstand to that, and I think it would eliminate most of shitty criticism from the journos that never really gave credit to Core i5 power in such form factor and clamored for more tablet like size and weight.

And maybe this move to 12" for SP3 is part of that realization. You give them a bigger form factor for those who still want Core i5 power, and bring down the 10" down to more tablet like weight.

And then the 8" form factor can be relegated to RT-esque functionality that does not give you desktop at all. RT only retained desktop for Office anyways, so when Office goes to touch interface, voila, no more RT with desktop mess. Keep desktop for full Windows 8.1 on 10" an 12" form factors.

My buddy and I have been thinking this same thing for ages..RT has been a curse and the build quality of 3rd party clovertrail/baytrail devices have been lacking..just for the love of god MS make a baytrail 10" tablet ..complete the circle. leave the 8"to the Rt/Phone windows unified platform

 

[dLMN8R]

RT's biggest problem was messaging and marketing. A Windows RT device is basically equivalent to a Chromebook but can do a lot more than just be a web browser. Yet people don't seem to hate Chromebooks like they do Windows RT.

 

[TxdoHawk]

RT's biggest problem was messaging and marketing. A Windows RT device is basically equivalent to a Chromebook but can do a lot more than just be a web browser. Yet people don't seem to hate Chromebooks like they do Windows RT.

To be fair, most Chromebooks are priced very aggressively, especially compared to what the Surface 1 and 2 originally launched at.

 

[Wiktor]

My buddy and I have been thinking this same thing for ages..RT has been a curse and the build quality of 3rd party clovertrail/baytrail devices have been lacking..just for the love of god MS make a baytrail 10" tablet ..complete the circle. leave the 8"to the Rt/Phone windows unified platform

Why? Plenty of people like the idea of full Windows with desktop on 8 inches. Why deny it to them? And how exactly would Microsoft enforce that? Ban license sales to OEMs? Or are you talking solely about Surface line?

 

[MCD]

I'd kill for 8 inch Surface with Atom.

 

[michaelius]

I'd kill for 8 inch Surface with Atom.

Dell Venue 8 Pro ?

There are also quite a few other alternitives.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FEE7B1I/?tag=neogaf0e-20


Also did someone use those student discounts in one of microsoft store ? How does it work ? Do you need to send some documents to them ?

 

[LukasTaves]

Dell Venue 8 Pro ?

There are also quite a few other alternitives.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FEE7B1I/?tag=neogaf0e-20


Also did someone use those student discounts in one of microsoft store ? How does it work ? Do you need to send some documents to them ?

This is supposed to come with LTE, but I never seen it described anywhere on product description... Is it just for a higher end model?

 

[Laconic]

Yes it uses MS Pen API. That's why out of the box on VAIO N-Trig tablets it has pressure sensitivity.

But more importantly, Manga Studio 5/Clip Studio Paint does as well. MS5/CSP has the best brush engine finesse bar none. Makes ArtRage brushes feel like MS Paint almost.

I still think that Sketchbook Pro has a better Pencil tool.

 

[HolyBaikal]

It sounds kind of nice, but very expensive.

With Splashtop, I could probably use it like the Nvidia Shield and play some really nice games with it. And that sounds kind of fun, too.

Maybe when it becomes more affordable, I'll buy something like it.

 

[Animator]

I still think that Sketchbook Pro has a better Pencil tool.

Sketchbook pro is the best hands down. In case you guys haven't seen the new perspective tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r96G15n08Y4

 

[bloodydrake]

Why? Plenty of people like the idea of full Windows with desktop on 8 inches. Why deny it to them? And how exactly would Microsoft enforce that? Ban license sales to OEMs? Or are you talking solely about Surface line?

i ment for microsofts own surface branded devices
3rd party can do what they want no?

 

[bloodydrake]

RT's biggest problem was messaging and marketing. A Windows RT device is basically equivalent to a Chromebook but can do a lot more than just be a web browser. Yet people don't seem to hate Chromebooks like they do Windows RT.

i agree its biggest problem was messaging and marketing.

Its in no way shape or form a chrome book class device.
IT was possiitioned as an android tablet/ipad competitor and it fails at that by having the worst app store catalog ever.

RT is an albatross it needs to be killed off.
unify all the phone apps and RT for small form factor devices that now get windows 8.1 free and they'll have a chance to renew interest..lose the RT name brand completely tho, its the plague.

 

[dLMN8R]

Oh man, I finally got extended hands-on time with the Pro 3 today. So good.

Using it standing up at a demo station - the keyboard was perfect. I could type just as fast on it as I can type on any Desktop/laptop keyboard I'd ever used. I thought it would bend a bit with the magnetic snap-back thing propping up, but it didn't. No bending whatsoever, just a tiny insignificant bounce that doesn't affect its usability at all.

Using it on my lap sitting down - no issues at all. Even more comfortable for me than my laptop because my laptop gets so fucking hot on my lap it's unusable. The keyboard worked, the kickstand was great, and more.

Pen was nice too, though I probably won't use it much. It's also very usable purely as a tablet without a keyboard attached - it's big, sure, but honestly doesn't feel that much bigger than an iPad. And its weight isn't a problem at all.


They should be in Microsoft Stores next week to try - if you live near one, definitely give it a shot.

 

[Animator]

Oh man, I finally got extended hands-on time with the Pro 3 today. So good.

Using it standing up at a demo station - the keyboard was perfect. I could type just as fast on it as I can type on any Desktop/laptop keyboard I'd ever used. I thought it would bend a bit with the magnetic snap-back thing propping up, but it didn't. No bending whatsoever, just a tiny insignificant bounce that doesn't affect its usability at all.

Using it on my lap sitting down - no issues at all. Even more comfortable for me than my laptop because my laptop gets so fucking hot on my lap it's unusable. The keyboard worked, the kickstand was great, and more.

Pen was nice too, though I probably won't use it much. It's also very usable purely as a tablet without a keyboard attached - it's big, sure, but honestly doesn't feel that much bigger than an iPad. And its weight isn't a problem at all.


They should be in Microsoft Stores next week to try - if you live near one, definitely give it a shot.

It is also going to be in Best buy too from what I heard (Future shop as well in Canada)

Not sure if it starts Friday or Saturday though.

 

[michaelius]

Have they annouced keyboard with battery cover for it already or do those usually come later ?

 

[PaulExcellent]

Sketchbook pro is the best hands down. In case you guys haven't seen the new perspective tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r96G15n08Y4

oh my god

 

[TxdoHawk]

Have they annouced keyboard with battery cover for it already or do those usually come later ?

No Power Cover announced. When somebody in the Reddit AMA asked about other covers, the answer was "...you'll just have to wait and see." which seems to imply other covers beyond the Type Cover are in the pipeline.

I wouldn't be shocked if we don't see a new Power Cover, though. I'm fuzzy on the exact timeline, but the first Power Cover seems to have been conceived before the launch of the Surface 2, and was the product of a pre-Haswell world.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Sketchbook pro is the best hands down. In case you guys haven't seen the new perspective tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r96G15n08Y4

WTF?! That is crazy awesome.

 

[Shogmaster]

Sketchbook Pro finally got to that? lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC8hTtJKiB4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNtH5nmwrh8

 

[Scalemail Ted]

Sketchbook Pro finally got to that? lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC8hTtJKiB4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNtH5nmwrh8

Yeah, Clip Studio Pro (aka Magna Studio 5) has a similar perspective tool already built-in. I agree with Shogs, it is definitely worth checking out if you want to use the Pro as a sketchbook.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Even more comfortable for me than my laptop because my laptop gets so fucking hot on my lap it's unusable. The keyboard worked, the kickstand was great, and more.

I think this is a pretty serious point, actually. Using a laptop on your lap is always noted, but if I want to use it on my lap and actually be productive (that is, use it for more than 30 minutes), I HAVE to find a book or something to put underneath it unless I want to be uncomfortably hot.

Then again, I don't know a MBP/MBA, so I don't know how hot they get, but my work laptop (Dell) makes me sweat.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

Microsoft is really missing out on a marketing gold mine here. Laptop heat can cause infertility in men, right?

Surface Pro 3 - finally, a laptop that won't make you sterile.™

 

[thefunkyman]

I would be interested in it if it had another USB port and a proper keyboard that was removable. Having a tablet/laptop in one is great, but I don't think it's that great as a laptop because of the keyboard.

 

[TxdoHawk]

I think this is a pretty serious point, actually. Using a laptop on your lap is always noted, but if I want to use it on my lap and actually be productive (that is, use it for more than 30 minutes), I HAVE to find a book or something to put underneath it unless I want to be uncomfortably hot.

Then again, I don't know a MBP/MBA, so I don't know how hot they get, but my work laptop (Dell) makes me sweat.

Any laptop with a decent processor (Macs included) can be made to get at least toasty warm in your lap, but there are several factors in play here, mainly where the heat is being vented and what kind of load you are putting onto the processor.

Reviews have mentioned some warmth but nothing too bad. I'd imagine the SP3 is in an ideal situation here though, because:

1. Unlike most laptops, the components that generate heat are all housed away from your lap when using it like a laptop.

2. No High Performance mode due to Connected Standby.

It will be interesting to see what the heat situation is like when someone hacks in a way to enable High Performance. I'd imagine this won't take long after release.

 

[Pooya]

Yeah this is going to be my laptop for the next 5 or so years, so I'll be getting the 512 i7. Shit's gonna cost an arm and a leg, though. I'll wait till Christmas time at earliest.

if you really intend to keep a laptop for next 5 years I suggest buying something with replaceable battery, this can probably work like 3 years even but past that you'll probably have to keep it plugged in all the time. Replacing the battery in these if it's like pro1/2 is nearly impossible by yourself and microsoft's solution right now is essentially selling you a refurb unit iirc. At this size with ultrabooks they're usually non removable but still you can open them and service them reasonably easily, surface pro1/2 was all glued in and tough to open. Doubt this is any different.

 

[DopeyFish]

I think this is a pretty serious point, actually. Using a laptop on your lap is always noted, but if I want to use it on my lap and actually be productive (that is, use it for more than 30 minutes), I HAVE to find a book or something to put underneath it unless I want to be uncomfortably hot.

Then again, I don't know a MBP/MBA, so I don't know how hot they get, but my work laptop (Dell) makes me sweat.

There is a reason they call them notebooks and not laptops nowadays

 

[Zaptruder]

Sketchbook pro is the best hands down. In case you guys haven't seen the new perspective tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r96G15n08Y4

Perspective sketching huh...

shit, if you need to sketch non-organics for any reason, your best bet is learning sketchup and exporting a 2D image of scale shapes of the space you want to create.

Then sketch over it.

 

[maximum360]

A power cover with additional storage would be awesome.