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Microsoft's VC9 (aka WMV9) gets new name and new support from the Blu-Ray Group!!!

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5330786.html

Blu-ray group gets behind Microsoft tech

Published: August 31, 2004, 5:37 PM PDT

By Ed Frauenheim
Staff Writer, CNET News.com


update:

Backers of the Blu-ray DVD format are adopting Microsoft's video compression technology, giving the software giant a secure foothold in each of the two major camps battling to establish a successor to DVDs.

The Blu-ray Disc Association is making three video compression-decompression technologies mandatory in its read-only disc specification, and one of those codecs is Microsoft's VC-1, a Panasonic representative said Tuesday. Panasonic's parent, Matsushita Electric, is one of the 13 companies behind the Blu-ray format, which is vying with the rival HD DVD format to replace today's DVDs for the coming era of high-definition programming.

VC-1 is the name given to Microsoft's VC-9 codec by the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE), which is considering the technology as a possible standard. As VC-9, VC-1 has already won approval as a mandatory codec for the HD DVD format.

The decision by the Blu-ray group means that makers of Blu-ray disc players will have to incorporate VC-1, as well as another advanced codec known as MPEG-4 AVC High Profile and the older codec MPEG-2, said Richard Doherty, a director of Panasonic's Hollywood laboratory. Advanced codecs are designed to squeeze a larger amount of content into a given space.

The move will lead to licensing fees given to companies, like Microsoft, that own intellectual property used by these codecs. The decision also appears to show that Microsoft was wise to buck its usual strategy and turn its VC-9 technology over to an open-standards body such as SMPTE. Doherty said it was "important" to the Blu-ray backers that Microsoft's codec became an open-standards technology.

The steering committee of the DVD Forum standards group, which is overseeing the development of HD DVD technology, has mandated the inclusion of MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 AVC codecs in addition to VC-9 (VC-1).

Both Blu-ray and HD DVD use blue lasers, which enable much more data to be put on a disc than with today's DVDs, which rely on red lasers. The tussle between the two next-generation technologies is akin to the videotape format war that raged years ago between Betamax and VHS. The current spat--and resulting consumer confusion--could help extend the reign of today's DVDs.

Bob O'Donnell, an analyst at research firm IDC, said the battle between HD DVD and Blu-ray reamins too early to call, despite Blu-ray's codec news. But the development does boost Microsoft's efforts to promote Windows Media technology in the media industry, he said. "It increases their credibility," he said.

Microsoft has been making a push beyond the bounds of its traditional software businesses of operating-system and office productivity products to try to become a major player in the emerging realm of digital entertainment.

"Microsoft has been actively working with various standards groups, including Blu-ray, to deliver exciting and compelling next-generation, high-quality audio and video experiences for consumers across PC and CE (consumer electronics) devices," according to a statement from Amir Majidimehr, a vice president in Microsoft's Windows Digital Media Division.

Majidimehr said the software giant does not intend to take sides in the battle between HD DVD and Blu-ray. "Microsoft will maintain its neutral position in supporting the emerging high-definition video formats that deliver new possibilities for content providers and consumers," he said.

Michelle Abraham, an analyst at research firm Instat/MDR, said that if Blu-ray wins out as the next-generation DVD format, the inclusion of advanced compression technology will be a boon for consumers, because discs will be able to pack in more material.

The score:

HD-DVD codecs=MPEG2 (for recording)MPEG4/AVC/H.264 and WM9/VC9/VC1

Blu-ray codecs=MPEG2 (for recording)MPEG4/AVC High Profile /H.264FRExt and WM9/VC9/VC1

Right about now would be a good time for Microsoft to announce HD-DVD compatibility with XENON...I hope they do it!!!
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Actually, the new H.264FRExt version of MPEG4 is even better than WM9/VC9/VC1 at equal bitrates...no matter...the PlayStation 3 will be able to play it all :D
 
That's hot.

So PlayStation 3 will include Microsoft technology? Maybe I don't get it. It would have to have a decoder built in, right? Can't believe MS would go with HD-DVD after this...
 

mr2mike

Banned
But I think that the interesting bit, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, is that now MS will be able to pull a PS2 and build HD-DVD playback into the xenon out-of-the-box instead of needing a remote (wich carried the DVD Video licensing), because now MS would be part of that group of companies that make the standard, and as such, paying royalties to itself would be kind of pointless.

Or am I completely off the mark?
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
DRM maybe with either BRD or HD-DVD, depending on the model, I would assume....

The PS3 would have a hardware decoder for all 3 codecs, as it is a BRD-ROM product(I would assume most PS3 games will be BRD-ROM too)...so, yes, in a way, it would have Microsoft technology....

But I think that the interesting bit, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, is that now MS will be able to pull a PS2 and build HD-DVD playback into the xenon out-of-the-box instead of needing a remote (wich carried the DVD Video licensing), because now MS would be part of that group of companies that make the standard, and as such, paying royalties to itself would be kind of pointless.

Or am I completely off the mark?


You are not off the mark *BUT* (big but) the leaked XENON documents point to the system using regular 8.5GB red-laser DVDs, though that could change (crosses fingers)
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
mr2mike said:
But I think that the interesting bit, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, is that now MS will be able to pull a PS2 and build HD-DVD playback into the xenon out-of-the-box instead of needing a remote (wich carried the DVD Video licensing), because now MS would be part of that group of companies that make the standard, and as such, paying royalties to itself would be kind of pointless.

Or am I completely off the mark?

They would still need to pay the DVD forum the appropriate fees: they only are contributors (not the sole patent owners of VC9/VC1 technologies either) of one codec out of three.
 

Izzy

Banned
So, one of the big HD-DVD advantages is in BR now? Well, that about wraps it up for HD-DVD. Good move by Blu-ray group and Microsoft.
 

teiresias

Member
I don't see how it was a HD-DVD advantage before since Blu-Ray had already previously announced support for a superior compression format anyway.
 

Izzy

Banned
teiresias said:
I don't see how it was a HD-DVD advantage before since Blu-Ray had already previously announced support for a superior compression format anyway.

In the early days HD-DVD supporters touted it as a huge advantage. It was only recently that the 'support for a superior compression format' was announced, and HD-DVD fans had to scratch that one off.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is the choice of codecs we like: actually now Blu-Ray is ahead of HD-DVD in terms of codecs.

Blu-Ray = MPEG2 + MPEG4 AVC High Profile + VC9/VC1

HD-DVD = MPEG2 + MPEG4 AVC + VC9/VC1

MPEG4 AVC High Profile > MPEG4 AVC
 
I'm confused. Doesn't Blue-Ray have a higher capacity than HD-DVD? Why in the world would anyone be supporting HD-DVD then? Is it backwards compatible or something?
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
God's Hand said:
I'm confused. Doesn't Blue-Ray have a higher capacity than HD-DVD? Why in the world would anyone be supporting HD-DVD then? Is it backwards compatible or something?

Both standards mandate for DVD backward-compatibility: Sony already has their Blu-Ray/DVD/CD monolithic optical system set-up (three-in-one) as does NEC with HD-DVD (HD-DVD/DVD/CD).

Blu-Ray offers more RAW storage space and better codecs to utilize all the space it has even more efficiently than HD-DVD does or at least equally well (same compression rates and quality if we talk about two copies of the same movie both compressed with VC1/VC9, the Blu-Ray version has space for the same content at higher bit-rates or for more content at the same bit-rate).
 

Che

Banned
God's Hand said:
Now this is awesome. WMV9 is the best compression out there. Great choice.

dont.gif
Nope. No way. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
God's Hand said:
I'm confused. Doesn't Blue-Ray have a higher capacity than HD-DVD? Why in the world would anyone be supporting HD-DVD then? Is it backwards compatible or something?
The advantage that HD-DVD still has over BRD is that disc manufacturing costs are lower, since the HD DVD disc is very similar in design to a standard DVD so can capitalize on existing manufacturing lines more efficiently. It also appears that HD DVD discs can also be manufactured more quickly than BRD discs (approx. 1 sec faster, per disc). The cost and time difference is relatively small at the individual disc level, but it obviously adds up at mass production levels.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
kaching said:
The advantage that HD-DVD still has over BRD is that disc manufacturing costs are lower, since the HD DVD disc is very similar in design to a standard DVD so can capitalize on existing manufacturing lines more efficiently. It also appears that HD DVD discs can also be manufactured more quickly than BRD discs (approx. 1 sec faster, per disc). The cost and time difference is relatively small at the individual disc level, but it obviously adds up at mass production levels.

The story about cost changes depending who you ask: one side will also tell you that dual-layer Blu-Ray discs are considerably cheaper to do than dual layer HD-DVD discs and that in the medium term cost per Blu-Ray disc will fall down even more.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
High Capacity Blu-ray Disc-ROM Mastering System "PTR-3000" Now Available

Development Paves the Way for Mass Production with Low Cost, Compact Production Line That Requires 1/5 the Space of a Conventional DVD Mastering System

Tokyo, August 31, 2004 -- Sony today announced the successful development of the Blu-ray Disc ROM (BD-ROM) mastering system for Blu-ray Disc pre-recorded content.

Key benefits of this new system include low cost operation, increased reliability and compact size. The PTR-3000 system uses a blue laser heat chemical reaction based on Phase Transition Mastering (PTM) technologies, and requires less than half of the processes and only 1/5 the space of a conventional DVD mastering system. In addition to the mastering of BD-ROM discs, it enables the mastering of conventional DVD-ROM discs in one system. The PTR-3000 mastering system will be available starting this fall.

With this PTM technology-based mastering system, Sony and Sony Disc Technology Inc. actively supports the implementation of the BD-ROM format for high capacity and high definition video content.

Sony plans to create a total mass production BD-ROM test line, including PTR-3000 and BD-ROM disc replication line, in Terre Haute, Indiana, USA. This line will operate in tandem with the existing Sony Disc Technology Inc. Shizuoka technology center in Japan.

Since larger capacity optical discs require the pit to be smaller on the disc, current DVD mastering technology was not compatible for use in next generation optical discs.

PTM technology uses a special inorganic resist which is comprised of metal oxide. It utilizes a chemical heat reaction generated from the changing phase of amorphous to crystal, instead of photo resist, in the fine pitch recording of electron beam or deep UV laser. This laser uses 405nm wavelength consumer blue laser to make the smaller pit.

PTR-3000 consists of 3 simple units: Sputtering, Cutting and Developing. In the manufacturing process, instead of a glass substrate and photo resist, the system uses a silicon wafer and inorganic resist that eliminates the pre-process and conductivity process. As a result, it became possible to directly duplicate the stumper. Therefore, the PTM process and current master galvanizing process combined reduce the mastering processes from 11 to 5 process steps.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200408/04-0831E/
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
KLee said:
The PS3 would have a hardware decoder for all 3 codecs, as it is a BRD-ROM product(I would assume most PS3 games will be BRD-ROM too)...so, yes, in a way, it would have Microsoft technology....
While I don't know how expensive those decoders are to manufacture, I do question if there is any real need for PS3 to house one.
Of course you'd still need to house MS technology in form of a nice Rom chip with the codec software or something along those lines... but I'm discussing the actual need for including more extra hardware in the machine even though it would be largely redundant.
 

pcostabel

Gold Member
I wonder if Sony will include VC9 decoder in PS3. After all, PS3 will be the most successful BRD player, so disc manufacturer will make sure it can play their movies. By not supporting Microsoft's codec, Sony will save on royalties and probably kill the codec altogether...
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
I wonder if Sony will include VC9 decoder in PS3. After all, PS3 will be the most successful BRD player, so disc manufacturer will make sure it can play their movies. By not supporting Microsoft's codec, Sony will save on royalties and probably kill the codec altogether...
I think the better way about this would be to not include any hw decoders, and simply have a nice EProm with the codecs. And then release VC9 codec in a much belated 3+ year flash update...
Granted that wouldn't save the royalties, but you'd still pretty much kill the codec without outright denying to support it ;)

And yeah - I don't want them to waste resources on a hw decoders unless it's gonna be usefull beyond movie playback, and I know that's not gonna happen (you'd need a solution capable of quite a few hundred MPix, and that wouldn't run cheap).
But what I suppose is most likely is that decoder will be there and a variation of the configurable media chip in PSP - so you'll have "all in one" decoder solution.
 

cja

Member
With all these minor announcements about br it's odd that Sanyo putting their full weight behind HD-DVD (Press Release, Reuters, IDG, Kyodo News) hasn't been mentioned on GA.... Third biggest Japanese consumer electronics company who happens to be the worlds leading supplier of optical pick-up devices. NEC, Sanyo, Toshiba vs Matsushita, Philips, Sony.
 

element

Member
Che said:
dont.gif
Nope. No way. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
well H.264 is awesome, but we have to wait for 10.4 and quicktime intergration.

WM9 is the best non open sourced codec. I think Xvid and 3ivx have great quality, but they are small players in the codec wars.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
cja said:
With all these minor announcements about br it's odd that Sanyo putting their full weight behind HD-DVD (Press Release, Reuters, IDG, Kyodo News) hasn't been mentioned on GA.... Third biggest Japanese consumer electronics company who happens to be the worlds leading supplier of optical pick-up devices. NEC, Sanyo, Toshiba vs Matsushita, Philips, Sony.

Minor announcements ? Sure... sure... they only addressed the two main criticism of Blu-Ray (lack of advanced codecs and manufacturing costs per disc)... :rolleyes.
 

cja

Member

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/pcworld/20040831/tc_pcworld/117656&e=1&ncid=

Blu-ray Still a Possibility, Too

Sanyo hasn't ruled out participating in Blu-ray--at least at a component level, says Watson.


"We looked at Blu-ray, but there were compatibility issues. Down the line, it is possible that we could supply components for Blu-ray," he says.

Also, here are 4 informative articles from the BRD presentation from July 23 and August 3.....

http://www.blu-raydisc-official.org/association/data/bda01.pdf

http://www.blu-raydisc-official.org/association/seminar02.html

http://www.blu-raydisc-official.org/association/data/bda03.pdf

http://www.blu-raydisc-official.org/association/data/bda04.pdf
 
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