Support NeoGAF

[Dice]

With Ducktales Remastered, the problem is not that the environment is 3D, but that the environments are mostly lazy and boring. Generic textures on the platforms are the biggest sticking point. It's poor art, regardless if it's 2D or 3D.

Yeah, just compare to Castle of Illusion.

There are really talented people on this project. I think it will end up looking great.

 

[Krusenstern]

Look at this, Capcom. There goes your money.

 

[Jobbs]

Those character models sure do look sweet though. Honestly I'm not getting why people are nitpicking about Mno9 being 3D. Game's gonna play the same either way.

I know some people like polygons, I can only speak for myself. But for me, as someone who grew up on NES and SNES, as someone whose *mind was blown* by the sheer visual awesomeness of Mega Man X when it first came out, I'm all about great 2D art in my 2D games. There's something dull and lifeless about the precision and smoothness of polygon models. Something drawn by hand and animated by hand has infinitely more character, because in many cases the animations are free to be somewhat abstract, and the angles and drawings don't necessarily have to be perfect with computer precision and perfection. In fact, the lack of that perfection is part of what makes 2D art charming and beautiful. It's such a truer, more direct representation of the artist's vision, much like that hand drawn concept screenshot is. When you try to construct the vision in 3D you're a step removed from it already.

When you consider the wonder I experienced as a child getting that first Mega Man X game, the idea of the spiritual successor to MM.. A new 2D game like MM from Inafune.. It's just a big shame that it's going to be boring lifeless 3D like every two bit XBLA game. Again, maybe you all love 2.5d. I can only speak for myself.

 

[gogogow]

I'm surprised their console stretchgoals isn't for PS4/Xbone/Wii U, but instead it's PS3/360/Wii U, especially if it's getting a release in 2015.

 

[Yes Boss!]

I'm surprised their console stretchgoals isn't for PS4/Xbone/Wii U, but instead it's PS3/360/Wii U, especially if it's getting a release in 2015.

Or even Vita. Seems like s good fit for Vita.

 

[true Gek]

No Vita Versions? =P

 

[Arc Christelle]

Would love to see some real gameplay.

There's no way it'll look like this all throughout the entire game, especially not if Inafune wants to finance the entire production for 900k.

I believe it's possible. Even if it's going to be 2.5D, I've seen some games that prove that there is still growth in the 2D game department visually.

 

[eXistor]

I'd really like to play this on WiiU, seems the best fit for it really. Looks pretty interesting so far, straight-up Mega Man rip-off, but it's by its original creator so that's fine. It's not like Capcpom is gonna give us any Mega Man any time soon.

 

[Fisico]

I know some people like polygons, I can only speak for myself. But for me, as someone who grew up on NES and SNES, as someone whose *mind was blown* by the sheer visual awesomeness of Mega Man X when it first came out, I'm all about great 2D art in my 2D games. There's something dull and lifeless about the precision and smoothness of polygon models. Something drawn by hand and animated by hand has infinitely more character, because in many cases the animations are free to be somewhat abstract, and the angles and drawings don't necessarily have to be perfect with computer precision and perfection. In fact, the lack of that perfection is part of what makes 2D art charming and beautiful. It's such a truer, more direct representation of the artist's vision, much like that hand drawn concept screenshot is. When you try to construct the vision in 3D you're a step removed from it already.

When you consider the wonder I experienced as a child getting that first Mega Man X game, the idea of the spiritual successor to MM.. A new 2D game like MM from Inafune.. It's just a big shame that it's going to be boring lifeless 3D like every two bit XBLA game. Again, maybe you all love 2.5d. I can only speak for myself.

I had the same opinion as you until a few months ago when I saw another X game, Guilty Gear Xrd.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I'm surprised their console stretchgoals isn't for PS4/Xbone/Wii U, but instead it's PS3/360/Wii U, especially if it's getting a release in 2015.

PS3 & 360 have huge userbases and well understood architectures, while PS4 & Xbone are unproven and using a different architecture.

Right call I think

 

[Raytow]

I'd really like to play this on WiiU

I want to see a reasonable explanation for this one.

 

[gogogow]

PS3 & 360 have huge userbases and well understood architectures, while PS4 & Xbone are unproven and using a different architecture.

Right call I think

Eh....this is primarily a PC game. The PS4/Xbone are PC's. The PS3/360 are the complete opposite.

 

[MilkBeard]

I know some people like polygons, I can only speak for myself. But for me, as someone who grew up on NES and SNES, as someone whose *mind was blown* by the sheer visual awesomeness of Mega Man X when it first came out, I'm all about great 2D art in my 2D games. There's something dull and lifeless about the precision and smoothness of polygon models. Something drawn by hand and animated by hand has infinitely more character, because in many cases the animations are free to be somewhat abstract, and the angles and drawings don't necessarily have to be perfect with computer precision and perfection. In fact, the lack of that perfection is part of what makes 2D art charming and beautiful. It's such a truer, more direct representation of the artist's vision, much like that hand drawn concept screenshot is. When you try to construct the vision in 3D you're a step removed from it already.

When you consider the wonder I experienced as a child getting that first Mega Man X game, the idea of the spiritual successor to MM.. A new 2D game like MM from Inafune.. It's just a big shame that it's going to be boring lifeless 3D like every two bit XBLA game. Again, maybe you all love 2.5d. I can only speak for myself.

I felt that way during the Playstation/N64 era, but 3D has come along way since then. Cel-shading basically bridges that gap now. There is a lot of potential for good artstyle with 3D so it's kind of jumping the gun to write it off already when we haven't even seen an actual build of it.

 

[Arc Christelle]

I want to see a reasonable explanation for this one.

The love affair of the ZX series on DS. The Wii U has that kind of audience. The possible use of gamepad either for interface or using both Beck and Call at the same time. Or perhaps to change weapons or even check the map.

Not to mention

More games the better.

 

[Despera]

dat main theme got damn!

 

[Deleted member 74300]

I want to see a reasonable explanation for this one.

Because Mega started on Nintendo and so should this.

Oh wait that was an unreasonable one. My point still remains!

 

[duckroll]

I understand the preference some people have for 2D, but I think it is extremely disrespectful to 3D artists to suggest that their work is inherently inferior to 2D artist. When people talk about drawing "by hand", doesn't it strike you as odd that it automatically means 2D art? A 3D artist also draws by hand. A mouse is every bit as much of a tool as a pencil or a brush. There is also a clear difference between motion capturing, which would be similar in some ways to rotoscoping in 2D animation, and actual hand animated 3D. Animating by hand gives the artist every bit as much creative freedom in how a character moves. If it looks dull and lifeless, that is bad animation. You can get bad animation in 2D and in 3D.

 

[Jobbs]

I felt that way during the Playstation/N64 era, but 3D has come along way since then. Cel-shading basically bridges that gap now. There is a lot of potential for good artstyle with 3D so it's kind of jumping the gun to write it off already when we haven't even seen an actual build of it.

I'm also not going to write it on without seeing an actual build of it. See my other post where I grouched about people posting KS listings without showing any actual prototype gameplay. It's nice to meet you and see you talking about your ideas or drawing pictures in your sketch book, Mr. Inafune or Mr. Doublefine, but I'd feel like you take it a lot more seriously if you put a little more work into your huge idea than that before asking for a million bucks. You want us to take it seriously enough to back it, so you ought to take it seriously too. Making a really compelling prototype is *not* a monumental task. It's quite doable by talented individuals.

In fact, making the slick prototype is really mostly just the fun part. You get to do all the fun stuff of developing a game and seeing the results but without much of the hard stuff and no grind. I know this; I've made many prototypes. I realize making a full game is a huge grind, but making prototypes is great! So if you tell me Inafune can't make an attractive, great looking prototype for his KS listing, I just don't believe it. I KNOW that's not true. Which is why I feel rubbed the wrong way. It makes it seem like he either doesn't have a firm vision yet, or just didn't feel like it. And if you're asking me for money over a year in advance, those aren't good things to be communicating to me.

I understand the preference some people have for 2D, but I think it is extremely disrespectful to 3D artists to suggest that their work is inherently inferior to 2D artist. When people talk about drawing "by hand", doesn't it strike you as odd that it automatically means 2D art? A 3D artist also draws by hand. A mouse is every bit as much of a tool as a pencil or a brush. There is also a clear difference between motion capturing, which would be similar in some ways to rotoscoping in 2D animation, and actual hand animated 3D. Animating by hand gives the artist every bit as much creative freedom in how a character moves. If it looks dull and lifeless, that is bad animation. You can get bad animation in 2D and in 3D.

This is true. I think the bottom line is I just don't like 2D games made from 3D art. Almost every time I see it, I hate it. It may not be impossible for it to look good, but I've been trained to expect it to be unimpressive and boring.

 

[duckroll]

I'm also not going to write it on without seeing an actual build of it. See my other post where I grouched about people posting KS listings without showing any actual prototype gameplay.

I think that's absolutely fair. I feel that these game Kickstarters which launch with no gameplay and no actual production work done at all are leaps of faith. Some people will be willing to take a chance with it if the staff and the ideas are exciting enough for them, and that's fine. For most people I would certainly advice caution (not because it's a scam, but because you might be disappointed), and wait for the final product and buy it then if it looks good.

 

[Skidd]

Will pledge $40 as soon as I can. The soundtrack and artbook sound too good.

 

[thomasmahler]

I think that's absolutely fair. I feel that these game Kickstarters which launch with no gameplay and no actual production work done at all are leaps of faith. Some people will be willing to take a chance with it if the staff and the ideas are exciting enough for them, and that's fine. For most people I would certainly advice caution (not because it's a scam, but because you might be disappointed), and wait for the final product and buy it then if it looks good.

That's why I think Kickstarter should be a little more drastic when it comes to game projects and only allow them when there's actually a playable build the developer can present.

Let's remember that Inafunes last project at Capcom looked like this:

Now, I goddamn love MegaMan and Universe could've still been a great game, but all of this kinda stuff is something to keep in mind. It's super easy to make concepts that look amazing and make people throw their money at the project, but then when you get to see the real prototype there might be a huge wave of disappointment incoming.

Making a smoothly animated 2d game that looks anywhere similar to the concept they've posted would mean that this would be a Rayman-esque production, which will probably cost 3-4x more than what they'll be able to afford.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I understand the preference some people have for 2D, but I think it is extremely disrespectful to 3D artists to suggest that their work is inherently inferior to 2D artist. When people talk about drawing "by hand", doesn't it strike you as odd that it automatically means 2D art? A 3D artist also draws by hand. A mouse is every bit as much of a tool as a pencil or a brush. There is also a clear difference between motion capturing, which would be similar in some ways to rotoscoping in 2D animation, and actual hand animated 3D. Animating by hand gives the artist every bit as much creative freedom in how a character moves. If it looks dull and lifeless, that is bad animation. You can get bad animation in 2D and in 3D.

There are some things that 2D animation can do with ease that 3D animation has to put in a whole lot of manipulation to get looking right, and thats mainly to do with in-between transition frames that are the antithesis to skeletal structure based animation.

A classic example of this is 2D sprite Sonic and his super peel-out and 'circular legs' versus the sloppy execution Sega indulges in on layering a 'speed circle' over his still standard skeletal structure 3D animation. You can get closer approximations (Sonic's Brawl model for instance has a far more convincing instance), but at the end of the day there are always going to be tell-tale signs.

For me personally, 3D animation lacks the dynamism afforded by "every frame can be whatever" 2D artwork. I'm always a bit sad that Wario Land: Shake didn't get a hell of a lot more recognition. I guess if it had been in HD, people would have perhaps been more won over.

I also think its pretty bogus this Kickstarter has no prototype to show at all. So this feels like a "give us money, then we'll actually start production" situation. Wiser business wise, but ironically the complete opposite to the Megaman 2 skunkworks team legend that gives Inafune so much credence and his wrongful position as "Megaman Creator".

 

[FLAguy954]

Only current Gen stretch? Why not go for the new consoles?

Don't start this shit, the Wii U is a new console.

 

[duckroll]

That's why I think Kickstarter should be a little more drastic when it comes to game projects and only allow them when there's actually a playable build the developer can present.

Why? You don't need to protect people from themselves. I think people who have money to spend on Kickstarters can make up their own mind on whether they feel a project is worth supporting, and whether the people launching the project is interesting to put money down without seeing any game footage. This basically boils down to "I don't think this is okay, and I don't think other people should be allowed to think it is okay", which is really, kinda rude imo.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I owe £27k to the government because of university

I stopped counting but I kmow my interest goes up by £50 a month. Its highly unlikely they will ever get their money out of me so its whatever *shrugs*

Hey, mind repeating that? We didn't hear you the other 50 times in every single Sonic thread. Thanks.

Yep. I make no bones about my distaste for the classic-only Sonic fanbase. But as you protest repeatedly, that doesnt include the majority of Sonic-Gaf. So what exactly is your problem? I suppose the Sonic furries dont exist if they dont post here either?

 

[Tizoc]

That's why I think Kickstarter should be a little more drastic when it comes to game projects and only allow them when there's actually a playable build the developer can present.

Let's remember that Inafunes last project at Capcom looked like this:

Now, I goddamn love MegaMan and Universe could've still been a great game, but all of this kinda stuff is something to keep in mind. It's super easy to make concepts that look amazing and make people throw their money at the project, but then when you get to see the real prototype there might be a huge wave of disappointment incoming.

Making a smoothly animated 2d game that looks anywhere similar to the concept they've posted would mean that this would be a Rayman-esque production, which will probably cost 3-4x more than what they'll be able to afford.

That just looks like Alpha/Early concept images, end product would've been more prettier.

 

[Sushigod7]

I just noticed game release is in April 2015!

 

[thomasmahler]

Why? You don't need to protect people from themselves. I think people who have money to spend on Kickstarters can make up their own mind on whether they feel a project is worth supporting, and whether the people launching the project is interesting to put money down without seeing any game footage. This basically boils down to "I don't think this is okay, and I don't think other people should be allowed to think it is okay", which is really, kinda rude imo.

Because that's not how the internet works. In an ideal world people would understand game development and get that it'll end up looking different, etc., but they don't. If they see a concept like that, they'll expect the game to look like that, otherwise you'll see people starting threads and making comparisons, ridiculing the entire production, asking for their money back once they see the actual game cause 'they didn't ask for that' and so on and so forth.

It shouldn't be very hard for a game developer to put a quick prototype together, make 1 level that shows what kinda project they're interested in pursuing - That's the only way to ensure that people know what they'll get and that they'll have real expectations.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Wait for the first real couple of screenshots of this game and for people to compare it to these concepts and go ballistic. This wouldn't happen if they'd at least show a little prototype as well.

 

[Xater]

I just noticed game release is in April 2015!

Games take time to make.

 

[duckroll]

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Wait for the first real couple of screenshots of this game and for people to compare it to these concepts and go ballistic. This wouldn't happen if they'd at least show a little prototype as well.

You're looking for a problem which isn't there. More than likely, if this is like any of the tons of other gaming Kickstarters which had nothing but concept to show but raised millions, fans would mostly remain excited as long as the game looks good, and there will be a bunch of people on the side making a lot of noise who never contributed to the Kickstarter to begin with trying to go "I KNEW IT!" and "I TOLD YOU SO!" but it's all just noise, and eventually the game will be released and some people will be happy and some people won't be happy, but the world goes on.

That's how the "internet" works.

 

[LeviGratton]

As a Gaming student in my final year of college the idea of dropping 500 bucks to work with Inafune's design team (learn from them, make contacts, say I worked on this game) is INCREDIBLY tempting.

 

[WAR recon zero]

2015 is so far, I don't know how will be my life at that point.

Will I continue to game? will I be a dad? will I lose a finger? dunno. So will buy when it comes out

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

damn, look at it go!

it'll be half funded by the end of the day!

called it!

 

[Finalizer]

Half-way funded and just a little over half-way through its first day. Hot damn.

 

[thomasmahler]

You're looking for a problem which isn't there. More than likely, if this is like any of the tons of other gaming Kickstarters which had nothing but concept to show but raised millions, fans would mostly remain excited as long as the game looks good, and there will be a bunch of people on the side making a lot of noise who never contributed to the Kickstarter to begin with trying to go "I KNEW IT!" and "I TOLD YOU SO!" but it's all just noise, and eventually the game will be released and some people will be happy and some people won't be happy, but the world goes on.

That's how the "internet" works.

I think it's the other way around. I see TONS of people who treat Kickstarter like a shop and expect to get exactly what they were promised. And if they don't clearly understand what the developer was promising, it can quickly become very crazy.

Gamers are a bit cynical - I'd say it's the people that actually pledged and didn't get what they fantasized about that make all the noise. Most others ignore it / don't care until there's actually a product that they can buy. Naturally you'll also have some nitwits who just give their 2 cents even when nobody asked them, but I think the fairest way to communicate to your audience is to just be honest and show them exactly what you're doing and what they'll get. And the best way to ensure that they'll get an educated idea is by showing something tangible, not a bunch of concept art that will always look WAY better than the actual product.

 

[Teppic]

Halfway there.

 

[Silvawuff]

Every time I look, this project has another $100K added to its total. It'll be interesting to see how far this goes! Exciting indeedie.

 

[duckroll]

I think it's the other way around. I see TONS of people who treat Kickstarter like a shop and expect to get exactly what they were promised. And if they don't clearly understand what the developer was promising, it can quickly become very crazy.

This is starting to sound more and more like concern trolling and less and less like reality.

 

[kubricks]

I am considering to fund this (first Ks participation) just as a way to give crapcom my middle finger...

 

[ash_ag]

Look at this, Capcom. There goes your money.

Capcpom should totally adopt the crowdfunder model. Would fit their current overall structure. You're probably all thinking I'm messing around, but I'm actually serious. They aren't even making games at this point.

 

[Plinko]

Half-way funded and just a little over half-way through its first day. Hot damn.

Really hoping it hits the stretch goals for a Wii U version

 

[TheMink]

I understand the preference some people have for 2D, but I think it is extremely disrespectful to 3D artists to suggest that their work is inherently inferior to 2D artist. When people talk about drawing "by hand", doesn't it strike you as odd that it automatically means 2D art? A 3D artist also draws by hand. A mouse is every bit as much of a tool as a pencil or a brush. There is also a clear difference between motion capturing, which would be similar in some ways to rotoscoping in 2D animation, and actual hand animated 3D. Animating by hand gives the artist every bit as much creative freedom in how a character moves. If it looks dull and lifeless, that is bad animation. You can get bad animation in 2D and in 3D.

My brother is a 3D artist. Uses a Wacom if people don't know that that is its basically a pen for your computer.

 

[Soule]

Did you listen longer than 10 seconds?

Did you by any chance listen to the ambient remix?

Yeah just re-listened to it, still not a big fan is there really an ambient remix? I just listened to the mix that was under the composers section. Sounds just weird and chill then goes into weird 90s exercise mix which I don't' really care for, still excited tho

 

[honorless]

I'm not sure why a random screenshot from a completely different development team is being posted just because Inafune was acting as producer.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to look at the work the developer has done in 3D to get an indication of their modeling prowess?

From the KS video. Looks nicer than anything in that MMU screenshot to me.

I'm gonna be honest, Inti-Creates is pretty far from being on any "top 3D animators" lists (IMO, basing this on Gal*Gun) but I think they're certainly competent enough to grasp the uncomplicated SD style this game is going for. it is also cool that they know what antialiasing is

 

[Zeth]

Actually the first thing I've backed on KS. Went in at $60 for the box+manual

This looks awesome. Have a feeling they will be successful. And this is what 8-4 has been teasing, huh?

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Capcpom should totally adopt the crowdfunder model. Would fit their current overall structure. You're probably all thinking I'm messing around, but I'm actually serious. They aren't even making games at this point.

They would get worse Rep than Dennis Dyack

 

[KojiKnight]

half way through at a little over 13 hours.

Currently trending to about 7 million (versus 3.5 and 4.5 last night)

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/mightyno9/mighty-no-9/

 

[TheMink]

IMO this:

Looks far mor appealing that this

 

[mao2]

Just pledged $20 for this game and Project Phoenix. $2.5 million go go!!

 

[Threi]

I understand the preference some people have for 2D, but I think it is extremely disrespectful to 3D artists to suggest that their work is inherently inferior to 2D artist. When people talk about drawing "by hand", doesn't it strike you as odd that it automatically means 2D art? A 3D artist also draws by hand. A mouse is every bit as much of a tool as a pencil or a brush. There is also a clear difference between motion capturing, which would be similar in some ways to rotoscoping in 2D animation, and actual hand animated 3D. Animating by hand gives the artist every bit as much creative freedom in how a character moves. If it looks dull and lifeless, that is bad animation. You can get bad animation in 2D and in 3D.

Agree so, so much on this. Its a mentality prevailent with some fighting game fans in particular and I can't stand it.