Support NeoGAF

[Trokil]

Because public discourse isn't a forum. Even within that example, GAF doesn't even collectively agree on what's a bannable action or not. The moderators themselves don't either. There's some absolutely heinous shit on here that slides right by because it comes from the right side of an argument. Or is used as a weapon against someone the mod team doesn't like. Or comes from someone the mod team does like. When you begin to assume that the collective, or society, has decided something isn't worthy, you begin projecting your own opinions and confirmation biases.

The other issue is that you can't control all of public discourse like you can a private forum. The situation wouldn't be banning someone from the forum because they are troll; you'd be banning them from specific threads - but still allowing them to post in every other thread on the forum. You aren't removing them, you are disengaging from them - which is entirely different and where the actual problem lies.

Donald Trump was elected President after saying a dozen things a day that would have torpedoed anyone else's entire political career permanently. Obviously what you and I may believe to be unacceptable public discourse clearly isn't.

So trying to filter out the noise through disengagement isn't going to work. It doesn't work. It hasn't been working.

The war on ideology isn't won by shutting out the other side and hoping they get ignored, as much as we'd all love that to happen. It happens by dragging these idiots out of the corners they comfortably spout their bullshit from and convincing people to join your side. Not everyone is going to be convinced, sure. Hell, most people won't. But that shouldn't preclude you from even trying.

That's why we have shitshows like Bill Nye debating Ken Hamm over evolution. Everyone with a elementary understanding of science knows Hamm is utterly and completely full of shit, so why bother engaging him and his bullshit? Because a fucking crazy amount of people still either believe him, don't understand, don't care, or simply don't know. You do it because, when liberals present their arguments in a reasonable, professional manner, we always gain social traction. Maybe we only inform or convert 0.1%. But that's still 0.1% more than before.

But for some dumb reason, we are so fucking scared that 'giving them a platform', even though they already have several, will mean that people will join the wrong side and we'll lose traction, despite this almost never being the case. Nearly everytime we go head-to-head with staunch conservatives, we gain a little bit. That's why you do it. Not because it's the right thing to do, or the fair thing to do, or whatever other nonsense conservatives cook up for allowing hate speech. But because it fucking works.

Yeah, sure, there's always a bunch of people on the other side that will claim victory, or double down, or whatever. But those people will always exist and everyone needs to stop focusing on them. We're not moving the needle by absolutes. We're moving it by fractions of a percent. And no one has ever been convinced by continually screaming "You're fucking wrong" at them.

Very well said.

 

[ScatheZombie]

Public denunciation of visible bullshit isn't ignoring. I don't have to have Milo Yiannopoulous post in his defense, or give him an opportunity to smear shit on the walls before I can take time to point out his garbage, just like you don't have to invite someone onto the board to state their case before you screencap a bunch of their repugnant horseshit for the sake of mocking/deriding it as the destructive, ignorant trash it is.

Bill Maher could make this man a highly visible, highly-derided punchline without ever having to put him on the show himself.

That's an absolutely fair point. But wouldn't doing so imply that he'd have to, on some level, 'give him a platform' by bringing him up at all and possibly repeating things he's said anyway for dissection and ridicule?

How is that different than bringing him on the show?

 

[HiredN00bs]

My estimation is that this will be a net positive for Milo. It will give a larger platform to his bullshit to people susceptible to buying it and the only thing purchased by that will be the revelry of his shaming by people who already think or would already think he's a shitlord. Bad move by Maher.

That's an absolutely fair point. But wouldn't doing so imply that he'd have to, on some level, 'give him a platform' by bringing him up at all and possibly repeating things he's said anyway for dissection and ridicule?

How is that different than bringing him on the show?

Bringing him on the show presents his voice as one worth listening to. Anyway you slice it, this is not the case.

Maher is bringing Milo on because his recent news blip fits into Maher's narrative about bitching about safe spaces and free speech. It's self-serving and I think he strikes the wrong tone on the matter in general. Still love his show even if he gets things wrong sometimes.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

People keep acting like "ignore" is the only other option. It isn't.

You can spotlight the heinous nature of the man's horseshit without letting him void bowels on camera. It's not hard. Hell, you can use his obvious garbage as a jump-off for someone else to attempt defending by proxy, someone who isn't obviously a bad-faith actor.

There are a plethora of options available for delegitimizing his worldview that don't involve having him on television in person to spout it. That's not ignoring him. You can easily spotlight his atrocious behavior without having him present to perform it.

There are multiple examples of that 2nd paragraph up there in this very thread, for instance.

 

[Intheflorsh]

lots of people beyond millennials don't know who Milo is.

many people don't know why there was a massive protest at Berkley.

Maher will expose Milo to better educate everyone what a piece of garbage Milo is.

Milo is going to get raked through the coals; especially if Maher picked quick witted guests to destroy Milo

Hugely underestimating Milo's rhetorical skills.
Hugely overestimating Maher's rhetorical skills.

Milo is in his element in a setting like this where he's under fire. Go and try to find me a clip of Milo getting embarrassed in a debate.

 

[Magus1234]

Here, in Hungary, a far-right politicial view sprung up, called Jobbik.
What did the liberal-controlled media do back then? Basically banned their politicians from coming to the TV shows to be interviewed. No one(!) (from the media and the politicians) took them seriously. They were not invited to debates, shows. (Or just at the bare minimum level, like once or twice before elections).

There were no debates with them, no real discussions publicly with different political views.
Fast forward 6-8+ years, and Jobbik is now the second(!) biggest party in hungary, with antisemitism and racism basically the norm in everyday conversations. People spout "jew" or "roma","liberal" or "gay" faster than you could blink upon even small confrontations.

The irony of this is that jobbik is now sorta normalized, with antisemitic forces slowly being forced out of the party, while the current authocratic regime is more far-right than they are currently. And for years, they could say "fuck the media for conspiring against us".

That is where lack of debates and "not talking to them" brings to the table. It is ideologically sound, but it does not help in the fight against far-right views. They will find their ground on Facebook, on closed groups instead. And there are no liberal voices to fight against such propaganda in echo chambers.

So yeah, I am glad Maher has Milo on his show. If his "performance" is anything like Tomi Lahren's a few weeks ago, he will have a few sentences, one or two "fights" at best without real points, and then he will be forced to laugh at Maher's monologues as usual.

Interesting anecdote, but I feel that says more about what the internet has done to political beliefs and how we find them than it says about ignoring the other side. You can protest Milo, punch him, ban him from TV but as long as youtube/facebook/twitter and any social media medium exist that connect millions of people, they will find and monetize an audience.

 

[Raven117]

Milo is not being given much of a platform as Real Time is at an exposure level he already attained long ago. It's not like Bill is giving some random Nazi from rural Florida an interview - people at Milo's level need to be called out at their own level and I hope a verbal beat down is the result of his appearance.

Yup.

These guys flourished when nobody outside of the righties really new of the sites.

In a way, this is some of that liberal "elites-ism" creeping into argument. That somehow the liberals "legitimize" or "provide a platform" for someone. Brietbart doesnt give a fuck what you think. The supporters dont give a fuck what you think. And they will only get stronger if not taken head on...time and time again. These guys are bringing a gun to a fight where the left is running off.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Honest question.. Why is Milo specifically so hated versus people like Ann Coulter. Limbaugh, Hannity etc etc

Ann Coulter says some truly vile things just like Milo, probably worse even , and is actually more effective at getting her message out. She has ton's of books is on TV constantly and I never see her bony ass get protested.

I feel like the only reason I know Iv'e heard about Milo is because of the protest coverage.

 

[gutter_trash]

Honest question.. Why is Milo specifically so hated versus people like Ann Coulter. Limbaugh, Hannity etc etc

Ann Coulter says some truly vile things just like Milo, probably worse even , and is actually more effective at getting her message out. She has ton's of books is on TV constantly and I never see her bony ass get protested.

I feel like the only reason I know Iv'e heard about Milo is because of the protest coverage.

generational.

Milo is a millennial attacking other millennial on millennial platforms

Coulter is on books (nobody reads books).
Limbaugh is on talk radio (lonely drivers listen to radio).
Hannity is on Fox (old people watch Cable news)

 

[Intheflorsh]

Honest question.. Why is Milo specifically so hated versus people like Ann Coulter. Limbaugh, Hannity etc etc

Ann Coulter says some truly vile things just like Milo, probably worse even , and is actually more effective at getting her message out. She has ton's of books is on TV constantly and I never see her bony ass get protested.

I feel like the only reason I know Iv'e heard about Milo is because of the protest coverage.

I think you are underselling how much Ann Coulter is hated. But on this forum, I expect Milo is hated more because of his association with Gamergate.

 

[nynt9]

I feel like if Maher brings his A game he's one of the few people who can destroy Milo and come out smiling. Could be a shitshow, but we need more visible occurrences of Milo being destroyed like Spencer got destroyed by that news anchor.

 

[Magus1234]

Because Donald Trump wasn't debated by intelligent individuals, being a career politician doesn't make you intelligent, they were the opposition and the political point scoring tactics was the very thing that buried the democrats this election.

If Obama could have run again and it was Obama VS Trump, Trump would have never had a chance.

I don't believe that for a second, not only do people see what they want in debates, they will also spin it and contort any message to fit the views they want. He could of been obliterated in a debate and 2 minutes later there would be articles/tweets/fb-posts talking about how he destroyed Obama and how Obama told nothing but lies.

 

[Glass Shark]

People keep acting like "ignore" is the only other option. It isn't.

You can spotlight the heinous nature of the man's horseshit without letting him void bowels on camera. It's not hard. Hell, you can use his obvious garbage as a jump-off for someone else to attempt defending by proxy, someone who isn't obviously a bad-faith actor.

There are a plethora of options available for delegitimizing his worldview that don't involve having him on television in person to spout it. That's not ignoring him. You can easily spotlight his atrocious behavior without having him present to perform it.

There are multiple examples of that 2nd paragraph up there in this very thread, for instance.

Bobby Roberts best GAF poster of all time

You know who Maher should invite on his show? The trans student who Milo publicly harassed at his UW Milwaukee event.

All the people who are suggesting Maher is having Milo on his show to "destroy" him or call him out on his bullshit... if that's the case, why not invite on someone Milo has attacked to speak out against his nonsense?

But that's not what's happening here. Maher is being all shitty like, "Let's see if he's really a bad guy." Learn to fucking Google, Bill. There's a wealth of evidence online that he's done awful shit. So if you wanna put the guy on blast, stare directly into the camera and read off his list of offenses and let the audience judge for themselves. Don't let the alt-Reich pretty boy twist words and use his charm to spin the situation in his favor.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I think you are underselling how much Ann Coulter is hated. But on this forum, I expect Milo is hated more because of his association with Gamergate.

ugh fucking gamergate....the gift that keeps on giving

 

[B-Dubs]

Yup.

These guys flourished when nobody outside of the righties really new of the sites.

In a way, this is some of that liberal "elites-ism" creeping into argument. That somehow the liberals "legitimize" or "provide a platform" for someone. Brietbart doesnt give a fuck what you think. The supporters dont give a fuck what you think. And they will only get stronger if not taken head on...time and time again. These guys are bringing a gun to a fight where the left is running off.

These guys flourished when social media allowed them to do their thing without response. Back when all they had was shit like Breitbart and Stormfront they weren't shit, they took off when social media and reddit gave them a platform to spew their shit from. Back then they were just conspiracy nuts but twitter and facebook gave them legitimacy and helped them break into the mainstream.

You aren't going to defeat them by talking, that's not how you win this fight. You're up against a virus, a disease. You can't reason with it. If that were possible WWII wouldn't have happened. You have to stamp that shit out of existence and make the very ideas they spew beyond taboo. You don't do that by treating them as an equal in the marketplace of ideas.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Neo Nazi? Seriously?

Everybody is a nazi these days, as it seems. Dude says some shit = Nazi
Dude spread some bad BS = Nazi
Dude is an asshat = Nazi
I don't like this dude = Nazi

Unbelievable

Dude spouts white supremacy = nazi
Dude spouts anti-semitic rhetoric = nazi

It never ends!!

Homophobe? uhhhhh about that.....

Wait, since when is Milo a neo-nazi? Isn't he a jewish guy?

*sigh*

Yes, he's a gay Jew. Doesn't make his views any less homophobic or any less anti-semitic.

 

[zaccheus]

I dont understand why people on the left like to shut people out. Their points of views are clearly wrong. You should be able to calmly destroy any garbage a "neo-nazi" would say. This is your chance to sit down with these morons and let them know just how stupid they are. Listen to them, empower yourself to be able to prove them wrong. not allowing them to speak creates echo chambers of hatred. By purposefully ignoring them, you add to their cause as they are seen as martyrs.

 

[Dreez]

I hope Maher dismantles the dude's rhetoric.

He'll complain about the left as a monolith, that's for sure.

Edit: with that said, censoring Milo gets his base riled up when someone needs to really examine his views. I'm not sure if I've seen anybody do that yet.

 

[Messofanego]

I applaud Maher for this, if Milo is as bad as people say he is then let him expose and bury himself on national TV, the problem with people like Scahill is they want to control what we hear because ultimately they are hoping they can control what we think by doing so.

The general consensus I have about Milo on here is that he is a neo-nazi or a white supremacist, especially from lime who seems to have a fetish for saying either of those terms towards anybody that he does not agree with so I cannot take what he writes seriously any longer.

Is there any evidence of him being either of these things? I am genuinely asking because I cannot find any from google or youtube, I am not being deliberately obtuse here either I just want to see what he believes in.

Are you sure you're not being willfully ignorant on Milo? Cause I've seen you in plenty of these threads and you would have come across the dirt. I'm going to assume you already know about his internal homophobia and harassment campaigns outlined in this thread, so I'll just focus on the other stuff. Googling this is very easy.

If you're going to link to a Roaming Millenial video, at least summarise the video instead of linking to an alt-right channel that will get people recommendations for more Milo, anti-feminist, anti-progressive, ultra-conservative channels that they'd rather avoid.

For someone who has interacted with Lime quite a bit, at this point you should know she's a woman.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

With intelligent debate

All the more reason for Bill Maher not to do this, as he can't debate for shit. He's only good at getting people who already agree with him to nod their heads. Everyone else sees him as a smug prick.

 

[GameAddict411]

This could either go really well, or backfire pretty badly, I don't trust Bill Maher to provide a strong argument against Yilo for some reason. I am afraid he will get air time to spread more of his hate.

 

[Bold One]

I dont understand why people on the left like to shut people out. Their points of views are clearly wrong. You should be able to calmly destroy any garbage a "neo-nazi" would say. This is your chance to sit down with these morons and let them know just how stupid they are. Listen to them, empower yourself to be able to prove them wrong. not allowing them to speak creates echo chambers of hatred. By purposefully ignoring them, you add to their cause as they are seen as martyrs.

You are giving people too much credit

That cunt has many followers for reason, you don't put out a fire by introducing it to the forest.

 

[Glass Shark]

you don't put out a fire by introducing it to the forest.

I'm stealing this

 

[collige]

Honest question.. Why is Milo specifically so hated versus people like Ann Coulter. Limbaugh, Hannity etc etc

Ann Coulter says some truly vile things just like Milo, probably worse even , and is actually more effective at getting her message out. She has ton's of books is on TV constantly and I never see her bony ass get protested.

I feel like the only reason I know Iv'e heard about Milo is because of the protest coverage.

Milo is specifically hated because unlike your average conservative pundit that just spouts nonsense, he makes a very intentional point to be as assholish and inflammatory in everything he does. He's really just a massively glorified /pol/ user. See this entire story: https://medium.com/welcome-to-the-scream-room/im-with-the-banned-8d1b6e0b2932#.dx9rqyclq

 

[ScatheZombie]

You don't put out a fire by introducing it to the forest.

That's what I was trying to point out in my previous post.

Liberals have this idea that you are introducing fire to a forest. The reality is that you are introducing it to the ocean.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

By purposefully ignoring them, you add to their cause as they are seen as martyrs.

Here's that "ignore" shit again.

If you see them as martyrs, silenced for having views that align against basic-human rights, then I'm gonna suggest your bar for martyrdom is way too fucking low. That's a you problem, not a public discourse problem.

It's one of the ways that the perversion of the phrase "fair and balanced" has seeped into the general consciousness over the last couple decades. People's fear of being called out for pretentiousness and presumption, for pretending like they're smarter than they really are, for being unfair, long ago overrode their fear of allowing anti-human rights sentiments to take root and flourish.

So instead of consistently shining a light on their shitty behavior (which is still public, even in the internet's darker corners. You can easily search for this stuff and find it via google. It's not hidden) and mocking/ridiculing/deriding it for the destructive shit that it is, people have been trained to believe that if they don't personally allow those voices equal time and the very best of their good faith, then they're the bad guys.

Which gets back to the weird cancerous growth sprouting out of the erroneous assumption that all ideas have intrinsic value that should be given equal worth.

They don't.

Some of these ideas have been known and provably bad and destructive to the progress of humanity since before your grandparents died in the war fought to save it.

And people out here acting like the real martyrs are the privileged dickheads who didn't get five minutes on a talkshow (or got to keep their account at an online forum) to do their smirking little dance for the benefit of their sycophantic, bitter, depressed and confused followers.

So you gotta ask yourself why are your priorities more closely aligned to making sure those followers are the ones whose feelings get primary consideration?

 

[B-Dubs]

I dont understand why people on the left like to shut people out. Their points of views are clearly wrong. You should be able to calmly destroy any garbage a "neo-nazi" would say. This is your chance to sit down with these morons and let them know just how stupid they are. Listen to them, empower yourself to be able to prove them wrong. not allowing them to speak creates echo chambers of hatred. By purposefully ignoring them, you add to their cause as they are seen as martyrs.

Because this isn't about beating ideas. This isn't Romney vs Obama or Clinton vs Bernie. Nazism is a disease. It infects vulnerable people, the displaced who want someone to blame, and it warps their ideology. Guys like Milo don't debate like you or I do, they hide behind whatever they can when confronted so as to look like a victim. Milo wasn't being racist when he wore a nazi cross, it was an ironic fashion statement. And those that don't know any better will buy it, and those debating him will look like bullies to them and they will feel bad for him and associate with him because he's being kept down just like them.

Milo doesn't care about anything that's going to be said on that show. All he has to do is say what he always does, do what he always does, and he'll come out ahead even if you all celebrate Maher chopping his head off. He'll win because he's been given a huge platform to do his thing.

There's no winning a debate against a nazi because they don't engage in debates like we do. They're just looking to spread their disease.

 

[Peltz]

I'm okay with this. I want Maher to fuck him up.

 

[BadAss2961]

Milo is many things, but he's not dumb. I'm fully expecting him to tone down some of the bullshit and just focus on his gripes with the "regressive left" and Islam. And Maher will agree with him. Hopefully they put the spotlight on the vile stuff Milo has said/done in the past, but I'm not convinced that'll happen.

I've never seen Milo tone it down. He's a troll who enjoys trolling and/or offending people.

 

[Raven117]

These guys flourished when social media allowed them to do their thing without response. Back when all they had was shit like Breitbart and Stormfront they weren't shit, they took off when social media and reddit gave them a platform to spew their shit from. Back then they were just conspiracy nuts but twitter and facebook gave them legitimacy and helped them break into the mainstream.

You aren't going to defeat them by talking, that's not how you win this fight. You're up against a virus, a disease. You can't reason with it. If that were possible WWII wouldn't have happened. You have to stamp that shit out of existence and make the very ideas they spew beyond taboo. You don't do that by treating them as an equal in the marketplace of ideas.

While fun to type for sure...practically what are you saying?

The internet did indeed usher in a new way of communication. No doubt about it. But thats a bite of the forbidden fruit that can't be undone.

And no...Facebook and reddit didn't give them legitimacy. Only their followers can do that.

They were largely ignored by traditional media outlets and elites (the sites, and the people that follow them)...and they grew in power.

Ignoring them...hoping they will go away...will not work. As you said...they have the internet and the power of communication.

That is where lack of debates and "not talking to them" brings to the table. It is ideologically sound, but it does not help in the fight against far-right views. They will find their ground on Facebook, on closed groups instead. And there are no liberal voices to fight against such propaganda in echo chambers.

Yup.

 

[B-Dubs]

While fun to type for sure...practically what are you saying?

The internet did indeed usher in a new way of communication. No doubt about it. But thats a bite of the forbidden fruit that can't be undone.

And no...Facebook and reddit didn't give them legitimacy. Only their followers can do that.

They were largely ignored by traditional media outlets and elites (the sites, and the people that follow them)...and they grew in power.

Ignoring them...hoping they will go away...will not work. As you said...they have the internet and the power of communication.

They grew in power because they were given larger platform by reddit, twitter, and facebook with which to spew their shit from, just like Maher is about to give them. The difference is that this platform is much larger and has a further reach that social media does. Social media has bubbles that people find themselves in, they grew in power by infiltrating the conservative ones and infecting them. By giving him an even larger platform you allow this shit to spread even further.

Again, they don't engage in debate like we do. Nazis aren't looking to convince you they're right, they're looking to take advantage of the disadvantaged guy watching who wants someone to blame. They want to appear as the downtrodden and oppressed, as the unfairly bullied, so as to get these people on their side and convert them.

 

[Joe T.]

There's no winning a debate against a nazi because they don't engage in debates like we do. They're just looking to spread their disease.

We've cured a lot of diseases and that didn't happen by ignoring them.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Bill must need more ratings.

 

[B-Dubs]

We've cured a lot of diseases and that didn't happen by ignoring them.

No, it happens by stamping them out. If someone's infected with a contagious disease you don't bring him to Times Square so he can infect everyone else, you put him in a hospital room where he can't do that.

Again, they aren't looking to debate. They aren't. They literally don't care about the debate, they want the platform.

 

[krazen]

Milo is many things, but he's not dumb. I'm fully expecting him to tone down some of the bullshit and just focus on his gripes with the "regressive left" and Islam. And Maher will agree with him. Hopefully they put the spotlight on the vile stuff Milo has said/done in the past, but I'm not convinced that'll happen.

Yup. Milo with artfully dodge any question about homophobia or racism like the Leslie Jones (whom as a fellow comedian I expect Maher to bring up) on a general free speech, "Ive got a right to be awful, even if I may be wrong" and focus on the freedom of speech stamping protestors, radical islam, etc letting him off scott free. Remember Milo is a troll and will change his behavior and even beliefs to keep people guessing; thats why its not worth it as opposed to debating a true believer

 

[Voyr]

you don't put out a fire by introducing it to the forest.

Yes, let's ignore the extinguisher Maher is holding to make a cute quotable. Not to mention the pay-to-watch audience that will amount to a non combustible metropolis that's already seen their fair share of fires in Ann Coulter.

 

[Abelard]

This sounds like It could be entertaining and I like Maher, but I feel like Milo will appeal to Bill's worst aspects and bait him into attacking islam and the whole episode will be a circle jerk on that one issue.

 

[Raven117]

These guys flourished when social media allowed them to do their thing without response. Back when all they had was shit like Breitbart and Stormfront they weren't shit, they took off when social media and reddit gave them a platform to spew their shit from. Back then they were just conspiracy nuts but twitter and facebook gave them legitimacy and helped them break into the mainstream.

You aren't going to defeat them by talking, that's not how you win this fight. You're up against a virus, a disease. You can't reason with it. If that were possible WWII wouldn't have happened. You have to stamp that shit out of existence and make the very ideas they spew beyond taboo. You don't do that by treating them as an equal in the marketplace of ideas.

They grew in power because they were given larger platform by reddit, twitter, and facebook with which to spew their shit from, just like Maher is about to give them. The difference is that this platform is much larger and has a further reach that social media does. Social media has bubbles that people find themselves in, they grew in power by infiltrating the conservative ones and infecting them. By giving him an even larger platform you allow this shit to spread even further,

They weren't "given" a platform. The platform provided and ushered in a brave new world of communication.

Not sure what you are referring to regarding "this is a bigger platform"...TV? Maher? Dude, they won the white house with this shit. And they did it with Talk Radio, websites, forums, and lastly TV. They were fighting the next war.

But hey, there are folks that will agree with you. They can retain the moral highground and not even engage at all! Path of least resistance, ignoring dark forces and it will go away. These folks will close their eyes real tight...put their fingers in their ears...and just hope that it..goes away....(Because this worked well in this election cycle).

But there will be others, that will address these issues and the people that spread them...issue by issue...fact by fact...and will convince others that this crap is not the way. You know...fighters.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

My estimation is that this will be a net positive for Milo. It will give a larger platform to his bullshit to people susceptible to buying it and the only thing purchased by that will be the revelry of his shaming by people who already think or would already think he's a shitlord. Bad move by Maher.

Who exactly do you think watches Real Time? I mean is HBO for fucks sake.

 

[Voyr]

They weren't "given" a platform. The platform provided and ushered in a brave new world of communication.

Not sure what you are referring to regarding "this is a bigger platform"...TV? Maher? Dude, they won the white house with this shit. And they did it with Talk Radio, websites, forums, and lastly TV. They were fighting the next war.

But hey, there are folks that will agree with you. They can retain the moral highground and not even engage at all! Path of least resistance, ignoring dark forces and it will go away. These folks will close their eyes real tight...put their fingers in their ears...and just hope that it..goes away....(Because this worked well in this election cycle).

But there will be others, that will address these issues and the people that spread them...issue by issue...fact by fact...and will convince others that this crap is not the way. You know...fighters.

Well fucking said.

 

[Foggy]

It's like we arrived in a timeline where someone wasn't just elected president despite being "destroyed" at every possible intersection. The naivete that exposure and reasoned takedowns is the only sensible course is laughable.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Ignoring them...hoping they will go away...

We've cured a lot of diseases and that didn't happen by ignoring them.

Again: This "ignoring" shit isn't the only option. The binary you're speaking to isn't a binary.

 

[George Washington]

Will definitely be watching to see how Maher tackles him on.

 

[B-Dubs]

They weren't "given" a platform. The platform provided and ushered in a brave new world of communication.

Not sure what you are referring to regarding "this is a bigger platform"...TV? Maher? Dude, they won the white house with this shit. And they did it with Talk Radio, websites, forums, and lastly TV. They were fighting the next war.

But hey, there are folks that will agree with you. They can retain the moral highground and not even engage at all! Path of least resistance, ignoring dark forces and it will go away. These folks will close their eyes real tight...put their fingers in their ears...and just hope that it..goes away....(Because this worked well in this election cycle).

But there will be others, that will address these issues and the people that spread them...issue by issue...fact by fact...and will convince others that this crap is not the way. You know...fighters.

Putting a lot of words in my mouth there dude. You can absolutely fight these assholes without giving them a platform to spew their shit from. What the hell do you think all these protests are about? All the journalism exposing the dark shit going down and getting people to fight against it? You don't need to give these people a platform to speak from to fight them. You just fight them.

Again: This "ignoring" shit isn't the only option. The binary you're speaking to isn't a binary.

There you go, try reading this.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Because public discourse isn't a forum. Even within that example, GAF doesn't even collectively agree on what's a bannable action or not. The moderators themselves don't either. There's some absolutely heinous shit on here that slides right by because it comes from the right side of an argument. Or is used as a weapon against someone the mod team doesn't like. Or comes from someone the mod team does like. When you begin to assume that the collective, or society, has decided something isn't worthy, you begin projecting your own opinions and confirmation biases.

The other issue is that you can't control all of public discourse like you can a private forum. The situation wouldn't be banning someone from the forum because they are troll; you'd be banning them from specific threads - but still allowing them to post in every other thread on the forum. You aren't removing them, you are disengaging from them - which is entirely different and where the actual problem lies.

Donald Trump was elected President after saying a dozen things a day that would have torpedoed anyone else's entire political career permanently. Obviously what you and I may believe to be unacceptable public discourse clearly isn't.

So trying to filter out the noise through disengagement isn't going to work. It doesn't work. It hasn't been working.

The war on ideology isn't won by shutting out the other side and hoping they get ignored, as much as we'd all love that to happen. It happens by dragging these idiots out of the corners they comfortably spout their bullshit from and convincing people to join your side. Not everyone is going to be convinced, sure. Hell, most people won't. But that shouldn't preclude you from even trying.

That's why we have shitshows like Bill Nye debating Ken Hamm over evolution. Everyone with a elementary understanding of science knows Hamm is utterly and completely full of shit, so why bother engaging him and his bullshit? Because a fucking crazy amount of people still either believe him, don't understand, don't care, or simply don't know. You do it because, when liberals present their arguments in a reasonable, professional manner, we always gain social traction. Maybe we only inform or convert 0.1%. But that's still 0.1% more than before.

But for some dumb reason, we are so fucking scared that 'giving them a platform', even though they already have several, will mean that people will join the wrong side and we'll lose traction, despite this almost never being the case. Nearly everytime we go head-to-head with staunch conservatives, we gain a little bit. That's why you do it. Not because it's the right thing to do, or the fair thing to do, or whatever other nonsense conservatives cook up for allowing hate speech. But because it fucking works.

Yeah, sure, there's always a bunch of people on the other side that will claim victory, or double down, or whatever. But those people will always exist and everyone needs to stop focusing on them. We're not moving the needle by absolutes. We're moving it by fractions of a percent. And no one has ever been convinced by continually screaming "You're fucking wrong" at them.

thisisdamngood.gif

 

[Permanently A]

Milo freely admits he enjoys arguing and trolling. There isn't any value to be obtained from debating him, but it will probably be entertaining if Maher can get a few licks in.

 

[ScatheZombie]

It's not hidden and mocking/ridiculing/deriding it for the destructive shit that it is, people have been trained to believe that if they don't personally allow those voices equal time and the very best of their good faith, then they're the bad guys.

I agree that seems to be a prevailing view, but I tried to move away from that by counter-pointing that doing so actually works in our favor most of the time. That ideology of equal time and good faith is inherently wrong; but the actions they espouse actually tend to work out in the end.

And I wouldn't call them the bad guys.

But I would say that it's lazy and accomplishing nothing.

 

[March of the Crabs]

Milo is very, very smart. If Bill is using this to expose what a piece of garbage he is, then good for him, but that is a risky move.

 

[Hale-XF11]

There's really no good reason to give him a platform. He did absolutely nothing to earn it.

Sensationalism breeds high ratings. That's all I can see this is about. There's no legitimate discussion to be had. No merit.

What a waste of time.

 

[D i Z]

Maher still ain't shit. Milo isn't going to "expose" himself. He isn't hiding. Fuck outta here with this come to the table bullshit.
The only hands that are bound are the hands of those who are uncertain of what is at stake here. Everyone else gets it and are making moves.