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[melonrabbit]

I don't know the sentiment still seems to be you don't believe it's natural for a townie to be so involved?

I'm trying to make sense of your post.

- I thought he was town D1 (as cop)
- LP NK and reveal changed my mind
- Reflected on Kawl
- Felt something was off and it lead to such a conclusion as a mention above that one post where he plays a hyper number game and then wants to disguard is what stood out to me and made me think SK.
- I never said it was unnatural just coupled with Kawl's recent behavior this is where I'm at.

 

[batsnacks]

I won't be able to do vote counts until the last hour. Anyone is welcome to do them.

 

[*Splinter]

I was not pro-peek, for the record. I was warming up to the idea, but I never actually committed to it. Once the cop, died, the strategy didn't really matter all that much. According to Kawl if there is another cop, then it can only be a one shot one. A one-shot cop is either going to claim as soon as they use it, or they're going to counter-claim against a scum.

There can be 2 cops. It's post (in that same conversation I think) had a full list of probabilities.

 

[Kawl_USC]

I was not pro-peek, for the record. I was warming up to the idea, but I never actually committed to it. Once the cop, died, the strategy didn't really matter all that much. According to Kawl if there is another cop, then it can only be a one shot one. A one-shot cop is either going to claim as soon as they use it, or they're going to counter-claim against a scum.

Odds pretty heavily favor another cop being one shot if they exist, but another normal cop isn't impossible.

 

[cabot]

Well since your conclusion is kawl as sk and so far we don't have enough evidence to suspect a sk fully yet I guess it's in the 'wait till day 3 to find out if useless' helter skelter.

 

[*Splinter]

There can be 2 cops. It's post (in that same conversation I think) had a full list of probabilities.

*Ty's post

 

[melonrabbit]

Missed this before.

What part of the scum team?

In general I feel people her too hung up in actions the scum team makes when it's much easier and more rational to stay low and out of suspicion.

I knew of the importance of posting good reads as scum, but quickly realized how hard it was. I've generally had a playstyle of town reading people more than scum reading, but as scum that got out of control because it was so much easier to town read. My first vote on this game was liberating. I had zero proof, but he just felt scummy. I missed that so much as scum.

I think I also did a really bad job with interactions between scum mates. I knew how important it was, but was always hesitant to lead anything against them and instead followed town's movements closely. It's hard to draw parallels though because only Worthy got a lot of fire and I decided pretty early to stick with my town read of him.
I guess one thing I noticed was how important consistency *felt* when a townie will naturally change their mind.
There's maybe a parallel to ultron. Darryl was on him and I faked scum reading him, but never made anything out of it. I think I just said "yeah he scummy" and coaster along. One particular post was where I said I was going to read him later which I never did...

That reminds me of one more experience. Reading your scum mates' posts was haaaaaaard. Especially if they were long. I wanted to so I could fake an opinion, but it was just so boring.

Last one is maybe not very valuable in this game, but I noticed them posting in parallel. What I mean is scum 1 would post something and a little later scum 2 would post something completely unrelated. They were posting at the same time, but not intersecting with each other. That got especially noticeable from the other side.

Paragraphs and paragraphs on his past scummy life and we aren't talking about it? He is doing it again people! Riding that helpful townie wave...

 

[Kawl_USC]

- I thought he was town D1 (as cop)
- LP NK and reveal changed my mind
- Reflected on Kawl
- Felt something was off and it lead to such a conclusion as a mention above that one post where he plays a hyper number game and then wants to disguard is what stood out to me and made me think SK.
- I never said it was unnatural just coupled with Kawl's recent behavior this is where I'm at.

Nah that post wasn't saying disregard that post, it was just saying if some people see all that and get a bit exhausted or wary of reading all 3 big post, establish a hierarchy of importance of the Ty post (and it is anti Ty far more than its anti sky which is an odd thing I picked up from you similar post before this), then summary if you would like one, and then finally the Maths post. I just don't think it's as rich with information for other people. But if you are an over achiever please do read them all. I wouldn't post something if I wanted it to be ignored. That's just silly.

 

[Kawl_USC]

- I thought he was town D1 (as cop)
- LP NK and reveal changed my mind
- Reflected on Kawl
- Felt something was off and it lead to such a conclusion as a mention above that one post where he plays a hyper number game and then wants to disguard is what stood out to me and made me think SK.
- I never said it was unnatural just coupled with Kawl's recent behavior this is where I'm at.

For future reference though, cops play usually are a bit less in your face than I played day 1. Powerful roles usually try to skirt the scummy/town line. At least Imo

This line of arguing is out there enough that I continue to lean more town than wolf on you though.

 

[Sophia]

There can be 2 cops. It's post (in that same conversation I think) had a full list of probabilities.

Odds pretty heavily favor another cop being one shot if they exist, but another normal cop isn't impossible.

Really? Well shit. I remember seeing Kawl's post on it and not thinking about it much further in favor of scumhunting. Sure enough, Ty4on does mention it a few posts later.

Sorry about that.

 

[melonrabbit]

Well since your conclusion is kawl as sk and so far we don't have enough evidence to suspect a sk fully yet I guess it's in the 'wait till day 3 to find out if useless' helter skelter.

Just wanted it out there.

I peeked at Kawl's license and saw the year 1911.

 

[cabot]

Just wanted it out there.

I peeked at Kawl's license and saw the year 1911.

This better be some elaborate real life serial killer reference or i swear I'll vote you

 

[Kawl_USC]

Really? Well shit. I remember seeing Kawl's post on it and not thinking about it much further in favor of scumhunting. Sure enough, Ty4on does mention it a few posts later.

Sorry about that.

Bad robot. Check your memory banks ya heathen.

Also Melon:

We are on the same page as far as Ty though. He's still my next person to flip after Sky.

What's your case against Stanley since that suspicion got drowned out in the flurry of gentlemen ready to defend my honor (simmer down there boys)

 

[Fireblend]

Also Melon:

We are on the same page as far as Ty though. He's still my next person to flip after Sky.

What do you think of that post of his I quoted in my previous post (his reply to Sophia)? Am I right in saying that was an unlikely scum post or do you see him posting that as scum having given up on saving Hyper? I am somewhat wary of Ty due to getting "friendly" vibes from him, but that post is making me think I might be just paranoid.

 

[cabot]

Ty is in my uncertain pile. I'm not gonna lie the way he described being town borderlined on erotica and I was struggling to think.

 

[Ty4on]

[...]
Additionally, last night we had only one kill. This means we can toss out the 5T scenario as well, as if both power roles are used up on a normal cop there is no way to prevent a kill as scum only have a goon and a godfather.

Actually that's not quite true. If the SK chooses 1 shot bullet proof and manages to draw the scum kill, and then the SKs kill goes through unimpeded then we could have a game state we are looking at now. Keep in mind the choice between bullet proof and investigation immune is an interesting one that dictates how a SK will play the game. If the SK plans to front super pro town, they will chose 1 shot BP to deter scum NK. If they plan to play a little more aloof and shady, they most likely avoid NK but are at a greater risk for a cop check. Personally I think going BP is the way better play as there are always NKs to avoid while some set ups won't even have a cop, and I think its easy to play as your town self than flirt around on the edge of scumminess.

So, for those of you so quick to write me off as 100% town, keep in mind we could very well have a neutral SK who's plan from the get go was to play as pro town as possible. I think it's safe to say I'm not scum, obviously I know I'm not the SK, but from yall's point of view, I'd probably wait until tonight and see if there is a 2 kill day tomorrow before giving me a complete clean bill of health. Just from a healthy dose of paranoia, ya know? (Okay, self analysis complete).

Note to scum: If you tried to kill someone last night and your team consist of Goon + Godfather and it failed, feel free to target that same person tonight. They are the 1 shot BP SK, so do us all a favor and take them out.
[...]

This stood out to me. If Kawl is the neutral, he is likely one shot BP. Why then make him such a big target for a cop?

 

[Sophia]

Because it is the only thing that made his actions make sense to me and many of his posts paints his a someone with a target on his back and that cryptic number post which mention a SK which he later told people to disregard and focus just on Sky stuff.

See, I admit that Kawl's post on the SK stuff was a little bit weird. But the fact remains that for one it doesn't make much sense for a Serial Killer to out themselves like that. For another, we don't actually have a second dead body to suggest evidence of a serial killer so...

 

[Ty4on]

Paragraphs and paragraphs on his past scummy life and we aren't talking about it? He is doing it again people! Riding that helpful townie wave...

Yes, nobody is suspicious of me...

What am I supposed to do? Talk my own post?

 

[Ty4on]

Talk ABOUT...

 

[Kawl_USC]

What do you think of that post of his I quoted in my previous post (his reply to Sophia)? Am I right in saying that was an unlikely scum post or do you see him posting that as scum having given up on saving Hyper? I am somewhat wary of Ty due to getting "friendly" vibes from him, but that post is making me think I might be just paranoid.

Eh I don't particularly read it as a clearing piece of evidence. It could be a piece designed to set up Sophia to go down in the future if hyper flips (which it seems to have been successful with respect to splinter feeling bus from Sophia). I think Ty was reading the room as poor for hyper at that point if he is scum.

 

[Kawl_USC]

This stood out to me. If Kawl is the neutral, he is likely one shot BP. Why then make him such a big target for a cop?

Oh no doubt as SK I'm picking up 1 shot bp and playing as town as I can get every time. I think that's just the better play.

But I also disagree that I was such a big target for a cop. I mean how is my play calling for that?

Seems a bit of a weird read there fam.

 

[Kawl_USC]

Just wanted it out there.

I peeked at Kawl's license and saw the year 1911.

Also yea, que pasa with this post?

 

[Ty4on]

Oh no doubt as SK I'm picking up 1 shot bp and playing as town as I can get every time. I think that's just the better play.

But I also disagree that I was such a big target for a cop. I mean how is my play calling for that?

Seems a bit of a weird read there fam.

Fake town leader and all the talk about cops.

If Hyper had flipped town I think a lot of cops would have picked you.

 

[melonrabbit]

Bad robot. Check your memory banks ya heathen.

Also Melon:

We are on the same page as far as Ty though. He's still my next person to flip after Sky.

What's your case against Stanley since that suspicion got drowned out in the flurry of gentlemen ready to defend my honor (simmer down there boys)

I hate talking about Stan when he is in bed. His posts on D1 suggestioned an awareneess that seemed a little more than he should have just starting out. Prehaps from the advantage of usually posting last (because of his timezone) he is able to get a good lead on the room and before comment. Or he has some pre existing knowledge from his PR. I don't think he is Vanilla.

 

[melonrabbit]

Yes, nobody is suspicious of me...

What am I supposed to do? Talk my own post?

Yes. Tell me a another story of your scum days.

 

[Ty4on]

Eh I don't particularly read it as a clearing piece of evidence. It could be a piece designed to set up Sophia to go down in the future if hyper flips (which it seems to have been successful with respect to splinter feeling bus from Sophia). I think Ty was reading the room as poor for hyper at that point if he is scum.

Knowing and acting are not the same.

I knew Blargs weird starsketch theory was bull and fragile, but never dared question it.

 

[*Splinter]

I'll be unavailable for a bit.

Also:

I'm having a bit of a boiler slash washing machine emergency, so pray for me that my flat doesn't explode.

What's everyone's feeling on Hyper now then, as we get to day end?

3spooky5me

 

[Kawl_USC]

Fake town leader and all the talk about cops.

If Hyper had flipped town I think a lot of cops would have picked you.

I suppose that's fair. And as SK id have no assurance that hyper isn't town. Was looking at that with the info we have now which wasn't correct.

Gafias obsessive worry over false town leaders is still it's achellies heel IMO.

 

[Kawl_USC]

Knowing and acting are not the same.

I knew Blargs weird starsketch theory was bull and fragile, but never dared question it.

That was town v town correct?

This situation would be a town v scum, so it's a bit different here.

 

[Kawl_USC]

I hate talking about Stan when he is in bed. His posts on D1 suggestioned an awareneess that seemed a little more than he should have just starting out. Prehaps from the advantage of usually posting last (because of his timezone) he is able to get a good lead on the room and before comment. Or he has some pre existing knowledge from his PR. I don't think he is Vanilla.

Time differences being what they are its just an unfortunate reality.

And really? Could you highlight one or two posts you think showed that additional awareness for me? I didn't really pick that up on my reread.

 

[Ty4on]

I suppose that's fair. And as SK id have no assurance that hyper isn't town. Was looking at that with the info we have now which wasn't correct.

Gafias obsessive worry over false town leaders is still it's achellies heel IMO.

A product of not making good town reads methinks.

Anybody can look scum if you're tunneling.

 

[melonrabbit]

I'm on mobile so it will be a bit to dig up.

 

[Kawl_USC]

A product of not making good town reads methinks.

Anybody can look scum if you're tunneling.

I think that's fair.

Is that second line addressed to gafia in general of my current read of you?

 

[Ty4on]

That was town v town correct?

This situation would be a town v scum, so it's a bit different here.

It took attention away from Worthy who was under a lot of fire and people ate it. It set off a sigh of relief in the scum chat until Darryl pointed out how silly it was.

 

[Kawl_USC]

I'll be unavailable for a bit.


Also:

3spooky5me

Can you two just get a boat and fuck already? Gawd

 

[Kawl_USC]

It took attention away from Worthy who was under a lot of fire and people ate it. It set off a sigh of relief in the scum chat until Darryl pointed out how silly it was.

So it was town v town with an indirect benefit to a scum under fire.

So a pretty substantially different situation than what we are discussing from this game.

 

[Ty4on]

I think that's fair.

Is that second line addressed to gafia in general of my current read of you?

Maybe

Also me. I think I yoyo between being agressive and tunneling (splinter-cabot love boat) and being too passive and letting scum slip (batman and gafia 2).

I try to jump back on a read to see where I could be wrong. They aren't perfect and I've misread in the past, but in general I feel way more confident in my town reads. Especially a strong one where I look closely and get a real sense of a townie trying to make out what is going on. I also noticed in Heist how devastating it was when town didn't trust itself and again in DP.

 

[Kawl_USC]

Maybe

Also me. I think I yoyo between being agressive and tunneling (splinter-cabot love boat) and being too passive and letting scum slip (batman and gafia 2).

I try to jump back on a read to see where I could be wrong. They aren't perfect and I've misread in the past, but in general I feel way more confident in my town reads. Especially a strong one where I look closely and get a real sense of a townie trying to make out what is going on. I also noticed in Heist how devastating it was when town didn't trust itself and again in DP.

Can...can you not mention heist again please?

Ptsddog.gif

 

[Ty4on]

So it was town v town with an indirect benefit to a scum under fire.

So a pretty substantially different situation than what we are discussing from this game.

Eh, I think as scum it would've made me hesitate and want to see if more people agreed.

I feel like it was easier to attack my scum mates directly (because it felt good knowing it could look townie) than to interact with townies about your scum mates knowing you'd be impartial and could spew.

Worthy was the only scum who ever got close to being lynched so I don't know for sure.

 

[Ty4on]

Can...can you not mention heist again please?

Ptsddog.gif

That shit is important. Painful mistakes is how you learn.

Spoiler

I'm also proud of calling out Splinter's bull even though I would never have voted him out ^^

 

[Kawl_USC]

I'm on mobile so it will be a bit to dig up.

No worries I understand be pain of mobile. Would greatly appreciate it if you could before day's end though.

 

[Sophia]

Hmm... apologizes for these being slightly out of order, but...

Me too. Sky is almost too obvious with his tiebreaker and in the initial posts about peeking:

Just like Hyper he looked more like someone trying to dismantle the strategy than someone trying to input useful advice.

Tired, just before sleep thoughts:

-I could see scum killing L_P hoping his flip would put pressure on those suspicious of him like melonrabbit. It's a little weird for a scum team she's on to be killing him.

-I want to really read over Sophia when I get the chance and energy. I haven't really scum read her, but she seemed a little off when she hit the stage. Felt colder and more analytical.

Sure. Haven't gone through suspects in detail, but the suspicion towards Sophia intrigued me.
Vote: Sophia

I wanted to pressure her. I'm not really suspecting her more than Sky.

Really just my gut feeling that has changed and gotten worse. Her replies didn't feel natural to me. Family's over and I slept in hard today so I haven't had much time for myself to ISO people.

Yeah what Cabot said.

Although I think we should be looking at Sophia either way.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't all of these posts from after Kawl's case?

Yes I think you could do that much for a bus. It fits your play style, I don't see why you'd put less effort in to a bus than you would for a genuine questioning of a suspect?

Reading through the past hour of yesterday, I think Kawl is obviously town, ynnny is also a pretty strong town read. I also think Ty4on is town.

If there's scum on Hyper I think it's melon, Sophia, or Cabot, in that order.

My top suspects are melon and SkyOdin. Also LP but I guess I'm wrong about that one...

Despite that long shpiel, I would prefer a SkyOdin to a Sophia lynch at the moment. I was just responding to her question on the previous page.

I'm interested in seeing how Sky will reply to these arguments, they seem a bit too good to be true but I could see that damning post being made by scum without consulting with the rest of their team first.

Right now I'm somewhat suspicious of Sophia, she said Ynny's vote for Hyper "gave her pause" yesterday, as if she was about to walk back from her suspicions on him, but then that was followed by two good replies from Ty4on and Ynny which I think a scum member would have had trouble walking back from. She might have felt obligated to commit to a Hyper bus at that point.

I know I'm gonna be here for the next end of day, but regardless, this is a fair point.

Vote: Sophia

Partly I'm suspicious of you, and partly I want to see what people do with this vote. Will they question it, defend, support? I mostly agree with SkyOdin/Melon as potential scum but again, I don't think sitting on either of them is going to yield more info.

I posted about it before I had to disappear from the thread. It's partly a gut feeling but I don't think it's completely preposterous either and it isn't 100% a hunch. Sophia is an great player and I could see her playing a good scum game. No reason to be shy about gut feelings right now and just sit on some of the safe choices when I know I'll be here for the end of the day.

What's with the long term narrative being formed here? There's a common trend of suspicion on Sky/Melon, people saying they're suspicious to me of varying degrees, and an extremely odd analysis of my playing pattern despite none of these people ever having seen me play scum ever in GAFia history.

 

[Fireblend]

What's with the long term narrative being formed here? There's a common trend of suspicion on Sky/Melon, people saying they're suspicious to me of varying degrees, and an extremely odd analysis of my playing pattern despite none of these people ever having seen me play scum ever in GAFia history.

I can only speak for myself, but you're a good player, even if I'd never previously played with you you've taken on what I'd call a leading role (you've been proactive, gave reads and interacted with a variety of players, etc) in this game and that usually makes people suspicious of you despite the lack of hard evidence. I have said my suspicions arise from your exchange with Ynny's yesterday, nothing more, so I can't say much more beyond that.

About Sky and Melon, I'd say they're at the top of most players' scum lists, so I don't really see the same pattern there.

I will give you that Ty's post and vote is worrying though, particularly to me since I hadn't noticed it and again I'm feeling he's trying to seem friendly to me and pushing in the same direction that I am gives me even more of that feeling (refer to my previous 2 posts).

 

[*Splinter]

Hmm... apologizes for these being slightly out of order, but...


























What's with the long term narrative being formed here? There's a common trend of suspicion on Sky/Melon, people saying they're suspicious to me of varying degrees, and an extremely odd analysis of my playing pattern despite none of these people ever having seen me play scum ever in GAFia history.

You tell us the narrative, if there is one. You don't just quote random unrelated posts and say "someone defend me". Sounds like a persecution complex, guilty conscience, etc.

Think Sky is the better lead still, but I'm ok with Sophia as well.

Undecided on melon. Logic says scum, gut says town.

 

[SkyOdin]

Good morning everyone. Looks like today might be my last day here with you all, so I should probably make it count. On to replying to people.

...

This reply bothers me.
...

...

Skyodin im on the fence about, logic points toward him being scum, but my gut is giving me feelings similar to what Yin described, that his inconsistencies and other mistakes are more from timidity, and trying hard to make more significant contributions to the game.
but then he also played the "well what when i flip town huh?" card and thats never a good sign.
all in all i give this a tenuous should probably maybe be lynched
...

I see that one post of mine was probably a mistake. To clarify, I wasn't so much trying to play the "I am a townie card" so much as trying to highlight that Kawl and Sophia were omitting a key possibility from their analysis. I still think that some people are getting ahead of themselves in their thinking. I think it is important to push back against that single-mindedness in order to get people to be more objective and look at alternatives. I can accept being lynched for my mis-plays, but the idea of it leaving town off no better than the start of the day galls me.

Also, while Sophia filled us in on what she thought we would learn if I was lynched, Kawl has yet to do so.

BTW, where is Terrabyte? He is going to fall under the ten post per day minimum at this rate.

 

[cabot]

Give Terra a break, it's not like anything happened in the time he's not said anything.

 

[Kawl_USC]

I haven't particularly looked at what you flipping town would say.

I meant that you flipping scum gives me better reads on both melon and Ty, where as flipping Ty merely gave me a better read on you.

I think both you and Ty could be scum, I see one additional link if you flip versus Ty as well as more momentum for you over Ty in the first place so I'm down with voting you despite my big post and case against him.

Don't see the need to figure out exactly how you flipping town affects things until you do.

 

[cabot]

live feed of Terra scumhunting right now:

 

[SkyOdin]

I haven't particularly looked at what you flipping town would say.

I meant that you flipping scum gives me better reads on both melon and Ty, where as flipping Ty merely gave me a better read on you.

I think both you and Ty could be scum, I see one additional link if you flip versus Ty as well as more momentum for you over Ty in the first place so I'm down with voting you despite my big post and case against him.

Don't see the need to figure out exactly how you flipping town affects things until you do.

But....!?

I could possibly see a SkyOdin, Ty4on, Hyper scum team.

For now I'll

Vote: SkyOdin

as I believe his flip will give more insight in the case of being town than if Ty is lynched and turns up town.

The entire reason you voted for me over Ty4on was because you claimed that my town flip would be more useful!

 

[Sophia]

You tell us the narrative, if there is one. You don't just quote random unrelated posts and say "someone defend me". Sounds like a persecution complex, guilty conscience, etc.

Think Sky is the better lead still, but I'm ok with Sophia as well.

Undecided on melon. Logic says scum, gut says town.

Actually Splinter... where DID your read of SkyOdin come from? You just suddenly jumped on the SkyOdin train after cabot presented his evidence...

Reading through the past hour of yesterday, I think Kawl is obviously town, ynnny is also a pretty strong town read. I also think Ty4on is town.

If there's scum on Hyper I think it's melon, Sophia, or Cabot, in that order.

My top suspects are melon and SkyOdin. Also LP but I guess I'm wrong about that one...

Despite that long shpiel, I would prefer a SkyOdin to a Sophia lynch at the moment. I was just responding to her question on the previous page.

I'm sure there was another post I wanted to respond to, but can't find it. If I've missed a question from anyone let me know.


No Sky?

Can you give your thoughts on Sky? Or show me if you already did, but a quick skim suggests you haven't mentioned him today.



Cabot put some colour in your avatar you bum. Keep mixing you up with Ynnny.

Oh, sure I guess

VOTE: SkyOdin

And there's been very little attempt to try and debate and argue with him from from you. These are the only two I can find...

Is cabot's evidence that strong that you suddenly jumped on the train but waited so long to actually vote for him? I know I did something similar in D1, which is why I'm asking you.

This is the only post making me think Sky could be town. Maybe he's being over-cautious, but it's never in Scum's interest to let a town player be "confirmed". I'd expect a town read on Kawl, but they'd never want him to be completely unlynchable.

Like this.

There was an early post from Stanley that made me town read him really hard, so I wasn't too concerned with him the rest of the day. However, looking back I can't find what made me so sure. I think it was a post where he brought up a valid pitfall in the peeking strategy that hadn't otherwise been mentioned when most people had already commented. If it's just that then I gave him more town-credit yesterday than he deserved.

At that point, I was about 80% certain Hyper would be lynched, with Terra as the next most likely candidate. I had no problem with either lynch, so I decided to vote against the favourite to keep things close for a bit longer. The classic "open a window for scum, then slam it in their face" approach.

If you're scum, it worked beautifully.

Also, as for Fireblend

I can only speak for myself, but you're a good player, even if I'd never previously played with you you've taken on what I'd call a leading role (you've been proactive, gave reads and interacted with a variety of players, etc) in this game and that usually makes people suspicious of you despite the lack of hard evidence. I have said my suspicions arise from your exchange with Ynny's yesterday, nothing more, so I can't say much more beyond that.

About Sky and Melon, I'd say they're at the top of most players' scum lists, so I don't really see the same pattern there.

I will give you that Ty's post and vote is worrying though, particularly to me since I hadn't noticed it and again I'm feeling he's trying to seem friendly to me and pushing in the same direction that I am gives me even more of that feeling (refer to my previous 2 posts).

I hear you on the pattern regarding Sky and Melon, at least. And yeah Ty's vote on me left me feeling a bit suspcious because I feel like I've been hearing the same arguments. Hmm..