shoplifter
Member
No Pete Rose again?
Those fuckers.
Those fuckers.
MLB - 2015 Baseball Hall of Fame Class Inductees
- Thread starter Sanjuro
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entremet
Member
All well deserved. Three of my favorite pitchers. Still can't believe Piazza isn't in. He should have been 1st ballot.
I wish Griffey Jr. were eligible this year so that he and Randy could go into the Hall together.
It's a shame that Pedro will always be remembered for this though/
I'm a Yankees fan, but this was hilarious watching this live.
I honestly forgot about this until I saw this GIF.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
some better stats. not all. Biggio was probably a better hitter overall but not by much. they are very similar in a way.
how many all-time records fell during the so-called PEDs era? besides the homerun records? not too many pitching records that I can recall.
in the era of ESPN? I don't think so. Biggio was well known. he was not lacking for exposure.
All well deserved. Three of my favorite pitchers. Still can't believe Piazza isn't in. He should have been 1st ballot.
I wish Griffey Jr. were eligible this year so that he and Randy could go into the Hall together.
It's a shame that Pedro will always be remembered for this though/
he won't.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
This is the first I've heard of the East Coast sports bubble.
How about people who just like to be accurate? Biggio has a higher career WAR than Yogi Berra, Willie McCovey, Dave Winfield, Juan Marichal, and Harmon Killebrew, among many other Hall of Famers.
He also doesn't suffer from any perceived character flaws: not known as a flagrant jerk, not known as a racist, not suspected of any cheating, and so forth. There have been some real head scratchers excluded/included in the HoF, but Biggio isn't one of them.
Even before the internet and ESPN exploding, baseball was always a treat to follow due to the statistics. The day the yearly baseball almanac would come out was probably my favorite day of the year. You could follow the progress in the newspapers as well far easier than any other sport.
It's also hard to think of the moment Pedro will be remembered the most for. For the national audience, it's probably Game 7 ALCS and the All Star Game in 1999. For me it will be that Pedro/Clemens game where Trot Nixon won it.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
It's been a common criticism from west coast/mountain region teams.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Actually Biggio did have a lot of power for a player his size. Surprisingly it came out of nowhere. In the mid 90s. While playing on the Houston Astros with his pals Jeff Bagwell and Ken Caminiti. But I guess unlike those guys he doesn't look blatantly juiced up...
Here is what sets him apart:
- He played for a long time
- His elite skill was getting hit by pitches.
Aside from that his career OPS+ was 112.
I think the other guy is tossing around the "You don't know baseball" claim quick to all of his argumentative points.
Let's not get anything confused here, Biggio is certainly not a head scratcher, as he meets even the basic criteria needed for a traditional HoFer. The manner of how he got in allows us to question him for these fifteen minutes as the annual HoF induction seems to allow us these days. Although, people who believe he shouldn't be in still have some talking points.
Setzer
Member
Agreed. Barry didn't need the PED's to get into the HoF.
I don't think Schilling is a clear cut entry either, so may take some time.
The real crime is NOMAH.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
No way. Tom "Flash" Gordon!
Sure, he's a lower end Hall of Famer. Yes, we can discuss steroid use / exclusion. That's different from saying "lol biggio" and getting called on it.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Preach.
Yup. I wouldn't say "lol biggio" without context. My main issue is still about Bagwell being passed for him.
Sometimes a voter just doesn't want someone to have 100% of votes. I mean, Randy Johnson is as much a lock as there could be.
I agree, but he probably needed PEDs to become an inner circle HoFer, for what that's worth. Without PEDs, he was not going to be talked about in the same breath as Ruth or Mays. He was probably on a trajectory to be more like a Wade Boggs or Roberto Clemente level player, but we'll never know for sure.
Have you seen Bagwell's neck? It's mottled. Suspiciously mottled.
MarauderShields
Member
Only 12.9% for Crime Dog? Thats a shame.
Much of that comes down to fandom or just random bullshit.
Again, should be noted for this thread that the voter who voted for Erstad also voted for Tom Gordon.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
There are actually a small contingent of voters who have stated that they will never ever vote for someone on their first ballot.
I think on Bonds that is arguable.
For the general witch hunt on steroids, I just don't see it. Unless you're someone like A-Rod who is doing GOD'S work right now.
Yes, I was willing to discuss knocking people down the list for steroids when we were just talking about people like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, who we know with some great certainty did use steroids.
But it seems to have spread to include anyone who had suspiciously thick legs or who had unfortunately bad adult acne. At that point, the likelihood that some guy who just happened to have acne is getting discredited becomes very high.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
The A-Rod witch hunt is ludicrous. The amount of Yankee fans condemning him after singing his praises in 2009 is typical of the fan base.
Like Bonds and Clemens before him, people will get over it once he retires
NoctisVsStar
Member
People like to overreact for anything.
Come on, let's not pretend that Biggio is a lock for the HOF. If Biggio was passed for HOF again this year, there would definitely not be outrage. Sure, he has 3000 hits, but the dude played for 20 years and had only 1 season with more than 200 hits. Out of 20 years, only made the AS game 7 times. Never MVP. No post season glory. Just a handful of golden gloves. Craig Biggio was great at "_____". What would you say?
That's not to say that I think he doesn't deserve to get in. He was a good player for 2 decades, stayed with the same team (matters to a small town team fan like myself), was always an asset to his team, WAR is as you say, etc. I just don't think he screamed "HOF" like it seems you are implying.
Please note that the beginning of this discussion was "Biggio is hilarious." I wouldn't have complained about him missing this year; I'm not complaining that he did.
only sin A-Rod ever committed was moving to third
To be fair I mentioned Barry in my post and later clarified. I'm perfectly aware that Craig Biggio was a good player for a long time.
We know that steroids notably increase regeneration and that both Clemens and Bonds took them. We know that they had unusually long careers with abnormal arcs, both (although particularly Bonds) having strange peaks in their late 30s when that is highly unusual because the body is beginning to break down.
In the sense that nothing can ever be proven with absolute certainty, sure, that's not proven.
I think the better question is whether keeping cheaters out is worthwhile when we already know so many cheaters have gotten in (e.g. spitballers, greeny users, etc.) Of course, the response to that would be that mistakes made in the past does not suggest we should continue to make mistakes in the future. It's a reasonable discussion to have.
Yep, and that's fine. This is just one of those cases where a reply chain went on too long and people aren't familiar with every post in it.
For me, that might be the most memorable regular season baseball game ever. Absolutely incredible.
Pedro is probably my favorite Red Sox ever. There hasn't been anything like 99-03 Pedro since - utterly captivating, dominating, and polarizing. So much buzz around every start. The Yankee Stadium one hitter was incredible too. So many memories. I'll always have the image of him walking off the mound after blowing a high fastball by someone, staring them down for 5 seconds, in my head.
Sure. My viewpoint is it's not an advantage when everyone is doing them. I have just as much confidence that Biggio or even Tony Gwynn took a substance at some point in their career which is on the banned list, than Barry or Roger.
Your last question is exactly on point. It creates a giant mess which MLB has tried to avoid, hence getting them into this spot right now with a lack of response.
And before this is mentioned: yes, at least a few other HoF players lasted in to their 40s the way both Clemens and Bonds did. However, I can't think of a single player whose career peak was at age 37, as it was for Bonds.
One could argue this is just a random fluke, but given that the specific thing steroids are proven to achieve is faster regeneration, it seems much more likely that the steroids assisted him in avoiding the natural aging curve. Bonds had a peak at "normal" ages (28-32) and then began to taper off in a normal fashion by 1999, only to have a massive resurgence unlike anything we've ever seen in his mid to late 30s.
Yep, that's possible. A lot of this is down to perception, and perception is inherently flawed.
One could argue this is just a random fluke, but given that the specific thing steroids are proven to achieve is faster regeneration, it seems much more likely that the steroids assisted him in avoiding the natural aging curve. Bonds had a peak at "normal" ages (28-32) and then began to taper off in a normal fashion by 1999, only to have a massive resurgence unlike anything we've ever seen in his mid to late 30s.
Yep, that's possible. A lot of this is down to perception, and perception is inherently flawed.
ph1l0z0ph3r
Member
Sucks about Curt not getting in. Glad Pedro got in though easily deserves it.
matthewwhatever
Member
I think we can just assume that virtually every player in the '90s was using something. The '80s, too. Mickey Mantle got injected by a tainted needle in the '60s, so he was probably using something. You can even go back to the 1880s, for that matter. It wouldn't surprise me if I were to learn that right now is the cleanest the game has ever been (but even if I learned that, I'd be doubtful).
And saying that Bonds wouldn't have been an inner circle great without the alleged PEDs is just plain wrong. Even just extrapolating his pre-1998 numbers (which, again, is absurd, since he put those post-1998 numbers up against people who had access to all the same advantages he had), you still get some of the most impressive all-around numbers ever. He may not have been Ruth, but he'd still have been one of the best ever.
Hank Aaron? His best year, at least for hitting, was his age-37 season. Stan Musial put up one of his best years at that age, too. Ted Williams was 38 when he had his best OPS. Honus Wagner aged pretty well too, considering the era in which he played.
Well then maybe he shouldn't have used them.
ie: Piazza
We'll ignore the fact that the man carried very mediocre Mets teams on his back to the playoffs and a World Series appearance.
Someone used "his career went downhill fast" as an excuse.... but his last full year as a starting C (2009, age THIRTY SEVEN) he was the 3rd best hitting C in the NL and second in WAR.
THIRTY SEVEN.
I think the other issue is that there's no way to know how many people they were playing against were also using. It's an individual sport but most people who watched the Giants play know that plenty of players benefitted greatly from Bonds hitting in front. All those years Jeff Kent hit cleanup behind Bonds was insane. He not only got a shitload of pitches more than half of the time Barry was on base so his RBI numbers were crazy. I think he won the damn MVP one year because of that.
You don't talk for me. A-Rod is the best Yankee of his generation, come at me bros.
They are pretty comparable. Schilling has better numbers overall (a smidge) and the accomplishments these writers are looking for.
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