MLB - 2015 Baseball Hall of Fame Class Inductees

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All well deserved. Three of my favorite pitchers. Still can't believe Piazza isn't in. He should have been 1st ballot.

I wish Griffey Jr. were eligible this year so that he and Randy could go into the Hall together.

It's a shame that Pedro will always be remembered for this though/

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I'm a Yankees fan, but this was hilarious watching this live.

I honestly forgot about this until I saw this GIF.
 
So not only are you not informed enough to speak on the subject, you're completely ignorant. Ok then.

To say that Jeter didn't have better talent around him is patently false.

You also missed the part where Biggie has better stats.

some better stats. not all. Biggio was probably a better hitter overall but not by much. they are very similar in a way.

yeah no, i'm not buying that at all

how many all-time records fell during the so-called PEDs era? besides the homerun records? not too many pitching records that I can recall.

as are you.


That's not what i said. I said I don't expect someone on the east coast to know about someone outside the east coast, IE Biggio, case in point, you said Biggio was a lead off hitter, yes he was, but not his whole career. Also you keep moving the goal posts by saying that, then when I correct you, you just ignore it, then saying baseball is an individual sport, etc etc.

Also the article I linked you is not from a Houston Astros fan site... nor is it Astros specific. But good try.

Anyway, ill let you continue to be bitter that Biggio got in. All I care about is that he got in, so whatever.

in the era of ESPN? I don't think so. Biggio was well known. he was not lacking for exposure.

All well deserved. Three of my favorite pitchers. Still can't believe Piazza isn't in. He should have been 1st ballot.

I wish Griffey Jr. were eligible this year so that he and Randy could go into the Hall together.

It's a shame that Pedro will always be remembered for this though/

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he won't.
 
I just don't think his career is as impressive as a lot of other guys on the ballot. Maybe I should have said "hilarious" but I got a "don't know shit about baseball" response from him too. I didn't even know there were Craig Biggio stans.

How about people who just like to be accurate? Biggio has a higher career WAR than Yogi Berra, Willie McCovey, Dave Winfield, Juan Marichal, and Harmon Killebrew, among many other Hall of Famers.

He also doesn't suffer from any perceived character flaws: not known as a flagrant jerk, not known as a racist, not suspected of any cheating, and so forth. There have been some real head scratchers excluded/included in the HoF, but Biggio isn't one of them.
 
in the era of ESPN? I don't think so. Biggio was well known. he was not lacking for exposure.

Even before the internet and ESPN exploding, baseball was always a treat to follow due to the statistics. The day the yearly baseball almanac would come out was probably my favorite day of the year. You could follow the progress in the newspapers as well far easier than any other sport.

It's also hard to think of the moment Pedro will be remembered the most for. For the national audience, it's probably Game 7 ALCS and the All Star Game in 1999. For me it will be that Pedro/Clemens game where Trot Nixon won it.
 
Hell yeah Pedro!

It's also hard to think of the moment Pedro will be remembered the most for. For the national audience, it's probably Game 7 ALCS and the All Star Game in 1999. For me it will be that Pedro/Clemens game where Trot Nixon won it.

I love me some Trot Nixon.
 

Yes, yes he was. He was already a HOF talent well before the PED mess.

—If Bonds had retired after the 1998 season, he would have done so with 99.6 career rWAR. This would rank him No. 32 all-time.

—If Bonds had retired after his age-27 season rather than signing with the San Francisco Giants, he would have done so with 50.1 career rWAR, more than 42 Hall of Fame position players.

—Bonds stole 340 bases through age 30; Derek Jeter has stolen 355 in his career.

—Through age 26, Bonds had 10.8 defensive WAR, more than any other outfielder in major league history other than Andruw Jones through that age.


—Between 1990 and 2004, Bonds was never lower than third in OPS, and he was third only three times.

—If you turned every home run Bonds ever hit into an out, his career on base percentage would be .384, the same as Alex Rodriguez's.
 
Gosh, its almost as if there is more to baseball than power hitting.

Actually Biggio did have a lot of power for a player his size. Surprisingly it came out of nowhere. In the mid 90s. While playing on the Houston Astros with his pals Jeff Bagwell and Ken Caminiti. But I guess unlike those guys he doesn't look blatantly juiced up...

Here is what sets him apart:
- He played for a long time
- His elite skill was getting hit by pitches.

Aside from that his career OPS+ was 112.
 
How about people who just like to be accurate? Biggio has a higher career WAR than Yogi Berra, Willie McCovey, Dave Winfield, Juan Marichal, and Harmon Killebrew, among many other Hall of Famers.

He also doesn't suffer from any perceived character flaws: not known as a flagrant jerk, not known as a racist, not suspected of any cheating, and so forth. There have been some real head scratchers excluded/included in the HoF, but Biggio isn't one of them.

I think the other guy is tossing around the "You don't know baseball" claim quick to all of his argumentative points.

Let's not get anything confused here, Biggio is certainly not a head scratcher, as he meets even the basic criteria needed for a traditional HoFer. The manner of how he got in allows us to question him for these fifteen minutes as the annual HoF induction seems to allow us these days. Although, people who believe he shouldn't be in still have some talking points.
 
I think the other guy is tossing around the "You don't know baseball" claim quick to all of his argumentative points.

Let's not get anything confused here, Biggio is certainly not a head scratcher, as he meets even the basic criteria needed for a traditional HoFer. The manner of how he got in allows us to question him for these fifteen minutes as the annual HoF induction seems to allow us these days. Although, people who believe he shouldn't be in still have some talking points.

Sure, he's a lower end Hall of Famer. Yes, we can discuss steroid use / exclusion. That's different from saying "lol biggio" and getting called on it.
 
Sure, he's a lower end Hall of Famer. Yes, we can discuss steroid use / exclusion. That's different from saying "lol biggio" and getting called on it.

Yup. I wouldn't say "lol biggio" without context. My main issue is still about Bagwell being passed for him.
 
How in the world does someone not vote for Randy Johnson?

Regardless, LOL at those vote totals for Sosa, Clemens, McGwire, and Bonds.

Sometimes a voter just doesn't want someone to have 100% of votes. I mean, Randy Johnson is as much a lock as there could be.
 
Agreed. Barry didn't need the PED's to get into the HoF.

I agree, but he probably needed PEDs to become an inner circle HoFer, for what that's worth. Without PEDs, he was not going to be talked about in the same breath as Ruth or Mays. He was probably on a trajectory to be more like a Wade Boggs or Roberto Clemente level player, but we'll never know for sure.

Yup. I wouldn't say "lol biggio" without context. My main issue is still about Bagwell being passed for him.

Have you seen Bagwell's neck? It's mottled. Suspiciously mottled.
 
Sometimes a voter just doesn't want someone to have 100% of votes. I mean, Randy Johnson is as much a lock as there could be.

Much of that comes down to fandom or just random bullshit.

Again, should be noted for this thread that the voter who voted for Erstad also voted for Tom Gordon.
 
Sometimes a voter just doesn't want someone to have 100% of votes. I mean, Randy Johnson is as much a lock as there could be.

There are actually a small contingent of voters who have stated that they will never ever vote for someone on their first ballot.
 
I agree, but he probably needed PEDs to become an inner circle HoFer, for what that's worth. Without PEDs, he was not going to be talked about in the same breath as Ruth or Mays. He was probably on a trajectory to be more like a Wade Boggs or Roberto Clemente level player than a Cobb or Ruth.



Have you seen Bagwell's neck? It's mottled. Suspiciously mottled.

I think on Bonds that is arguable.

For the general witch hunt on steroids, I just don't see it. Unless you're someone like A-Rod who is doing GOD'S work right now.
 
First thing Rob Manfred should do is declare Pete Rose eligible for the HoF along with rescinding his lifetime ban from Baseball.
 
I think on Bonds that is arguable.

For the general witch hunt on steroids, I just don't see it. Unless you're someone like A-Rod who is doing GOD'S work right now.

Yes, I was willing to discuss knocking people down the list for steroids when we were just talking about people like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, who we know with some great certainty did use steroids.

But it seems to have spread to include anyone who had suspiciously thick legs or who had unfortunately bad adult acne. At that point, the likelihood that some guy who just happened to have acne is getting discredited becomes very high.
 
I think on Bonds that is arguable.

For the general witch hunt on steroids, I just don't see it. Unless you're someone like A-Rod who is doing GOD'S work right now.

The A-Rod witch hunt is ludicrous. The amount of Yankee fans condemning him after singing his praises in 2009 is typical of the fan base.

Like Bonds and Clemens before him, people will get over it once he retires
 
How about people who just like to be accurate? Biggio has a higher career WAR than Yogi Berra, Willie McCovey, Dave Winfield, Juan Marichal, and Harmon Killebrew, among many other Hall of Famers.

He also doesn't suffer from any perceived character flaws: not known as a flagrant jerk, not known as a racist, not suspected of any cheating, and so forth. There have been some real head scratchers excluded/included in the HoF, but Biggio isn't one of them.

Come on, let's not pretend that Biggio is a lock for the HOF. If Biggio was passed for HOF again this year, there would definitely not be outrage. Sure, he has 3000 hits, but the dude played for 20 years and had only 1 season with more than 200 hits. Out of 20 years, only made the AS game 7 times. Never MVP. No post season glory. Just a handful of golden gloves. Craig Biggio was great at "_____". What would you say?

That's not to say that I think he doesn't deserve to get in. He was a good player for 2 decades, stayed with the same team (matters to a small town team fan like myself), was always an asset to his team, WAR is as you say, etc. I just don't think he screamed "HOF" like it seems you are implying.
 
Come on, let's not pretend that Biggio is a lock for the HOF. If Biggio was passed for HOF again this year, there would definitely not be outrage. Sure, he has 3000 hits, but the dude played for 20 years and had only 1 season with more than 200 hits. Out of 20 years, only made the AS game 7 times. Never MVP. No post season glory. Just a handful of golden gloves. Craig Biggio was great at "_____". What would you say?

That's not to say that I think he doesn't deserve to get in. He was a good player for 2 decades, stayed with the same team (matters to a small town team fan like myself), was always an asset to his team, WAR is as you say, etc. I just don't think he screamed "HOF" like it seems you are implying.

Please note that the beginning of this discussion was "Biggio is hilarious." I wouldn't have complained about him missing this year; I'm not complaining that he did.
 
I just don't have that mentality I guess. Can't put down Clemens/Bonds when nobody can actually prove if they had a competitive advantage or not.
 
The A-Rod witch hunt is ludicrous. The amount of Yankee fans condemning him after singing his praises in 2009 is typical of the fan base.

Like Bonds and Clemens before him, people will get over it once he retires

only sin A-Rod ever committed was moving to third
 
If the Yankees were winning, Arod would be fine. The Yankees brass have a nice villain to distract their lack of postseason production of late.

Also the Yankees gave him that ridiculous contract and want to find a way to get out of it.
 
Please note that the beginning of this discussion was "Biggio is hilarious." I wouldn't have complained about him missing this year; I'm not complaining that he did.

To be fair I mentioned Barry in my post and later clarified. I'm perfectly aware that Craig Biggio was a good player for a long time.
 
I just don't have that mentality I guess. Can't put down Clemens/Bonds when nobody can actually prove if they had a competitive advantage or not.

We know that steroids notably increase regeneration and that both Clemens and Bonds took them. We know that they had unusually long careers with abnormal arcs, both (although particularly Bonds) having strange peaks in their late 30s when that is highly unusual because the body is beginning to break down.

In the sense that nothing can ever be proven with absolute certainty, sure, that's not proven.

I think the better question is whether keeping cheaters out is worthwhile when we already know so many cheaters have gotten in (e.g. spitballers, greeny users, etc.) Of course, the response to that would be that mistakes made in the past does not suggest we should continue to make mistakes in the future. It's a reasonable discussion to have.
 
To be fair I mentioned Barry in my post and later clarified. I'm perfectly aware that Craig Biggio was a good player for a long time.

Yep, and that's fine. This is just one of those cases where a reply chain went on too long and people aren't familiar with every post in it.
 
It's also hard to think of the moment Pedro will be remembered the most for. For the national audience, it's probably Game 7 ALCS and the All Star Game in 1999. For me it will be that Pedro/Clemens game where Trot Nixon won it.

For me, that might be the most memorable regular season baseball game ever. Absolutely incredible.

Pedro is probably my favorite Red Sox ever. There hasn't been anything like 99-03 Pedro since - utterly captivating, dominating, and polarizing. So much buzz around every start. The Yankee Stadium one hitter was incredible too. So many memories. I'll always have the image of him walking off the mound after blowing a high fastball by someone, staring them down for 5 seconds, in my head.
 
We know that steroids notably increase regeneration and that both Clemens and Bonds took them. We know that they had unusually long careers with abnormal arcs, both (although particularly Bonds) having strange peaks in their late 30s when that is highly unusual because the body is beginning to break down.

In the sense that nothing can ever be proven with absolute certainty, sure, that's not proven.

I think the better question is whether keeping cheaters out is worthwhile when we already know so many cheaters have gotten in (e.g. spitballers, greeny users, etc.) Of course, the response to that would be that mistakes made in the past does not suggest we should continue to make mistakes in the future. It's a reasonable discussion to have.

Sure. My viewpoint is it's not an advantage when everyone is doing them. I have just as much confidence that Biggio or even Tony Gwynn took a substance at some point in their career which is on the banned list, than Barry or Roger.

Your last question is exactly on point. It creates a giant mess which MLB has tried to avoid, hence getting them into this spot right now with a lack of response.
 
And before this is mentioned: yes, at least a few other HoF players lasted in to their 40s the way both Clemens and Bonds did. However, I can't think of a single player whose career peak was at age 37, as it was for Bonds.

One could argue this is just a random fluke, but given that the specific thing steroids are proven to achieve is faster regeneration, it seems much more likely that the steroids assisted him in avoiding the natural aging curve. Bonds had a peak at "normal" ages (28-32) and then began to taper off in a normal fashion by 1999, only to have a massive resurgence unlike anything we've ever seen in his mid to late 30s.

Sure. My viewpoint is it's not an advantage when everyone is doing them. I have just as much confidence that Biggio or even Tony Gwynn took a substance at some point in their career which is on the banned list, than Barry or Roger.

Your last question is exactly on point. It creates a giant mess which MLB has tried to avoid, hence getting them into this spot right now with a lack of response.

Yep, that's possible. A lot of this is down to perception, and perception is inherently flawed.
 
Yes, I was willing to discuss knocking people down the list for steroids when we were just talking about people like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, who we know with some great certainty did use steroids.

But it seems to have spread to include anyone who had suspiciously thick legs or who had unfortunately bad adult acne. At that point, the likelihood that some guy who just happened to have acne is getting discredited becomes very high.

I think we can just assume that virtually every player in the '90s was using something. The '80s, too. Mickey Mantle got injected by a tainted needle in the '60s, so he was probably using something. You can even go back to the 1880s, for that matter. It wouldn't surprise me if I were to learn that right now is the cleanest the game has ever been (but even if I learned that, I'd be doubtful).

And saying that Bonds wouldn't have been an inner circle great without the alleged PEDs is just plain wrong. Even just extrapolating his pre-1998 numbers (which, again, is absurd, since he put those post-1998 numbers up against people who had access to all the same advantages he had), you still get some of the most impressive all-around numbers ever. He may not have been Ruth, but he'd still have been one of the best ever.

And before this is mentioned: yes, at least a few other HoF players lasted in to their 40s the way both Clemens and Bonds did. However, I can't think of a single player whose career peak was at age 37, as it was for Bonds.

One could argue this is just a random fluke, but given that the specific thing steroids are proven to achieve is faster regeneration, it seems much more likely that the steroids assisted him in avoiding the natural aging curve. Bonds had a peak at "normal" ages (28-32) and then began to taper off in a normal fashion by 1999, only to have a massive resurgence unlike anything we've ever seen in his mid to late 30s.

Hank Aaron? His best year, at least for hitting, was his age-37 season. Stan Musial put up one of his best years at that age, too. Ted Williams was 38 when he had his best OPS. Honus Wagner aged pretty well too, considering the era in which he played.
 
How does Curt Schilling get nearly 40% of the vote while Mussina manages just 25%? Is it really because Curt has 3,000 strikeouts? Had Mussina played two more seasons he would have hit 300wins and 3,000 strikeouts. Instead he chose to retire after a 20 win season.
 
But it seems to have spread to include anyone who had suspiciously thick legs or who had unfortunately bad adult acne. At that point, the likelihood that some guy who just happened to have acne is getting discredited becomes very high.

ie: Piazza

We'll ignore the fact that the man carried very mediocre Mets teams on his back to the playoffs and a World Series appearance.

Someone used "his career went downhill fast" as an excuse.... but his last full year as a starting C (2009, age THIRTY SEVEN) he was the 3rd best hitting C in the NL and second in WAR.

THIRTY SEVEN.
 
We know that steroids notably increase regeneration and that both Clemens and Bonds took them. We know that they had unusually long careers with abnormal arcs, both (although particularly Bonds) having strange peaks in their late 30s when that is highly unusual because the body is beginning to break down.

In the sense that nothing can ever be proven with absolute certainty, sure, that's not proven.

I think the better question is whether keeping cheaters out is worthwhile when we already know so many cheaters have gotten in (e.g. spitballers, greeny users, etc.) Of course, the response to that would be that mistakes made in the past does not suggest we should continue to make mistakes in the future. It's a reasonable discussion to have.

I think the other issue is that there's no way to know how many people they were playing against were also using. It's an individual sport but most people who watched the Giants play know that plenty of players benefitted greatly from Bonds hitting in front. All those years Jeff Kent hit cleanup behind Bonds was insane. He not only got a shitload of pitches more than half of the time Barry was on base so his RBI numbers were crazy. I think he won the damn MVP one year because of that.
 
The A-Rod witch hunt is ludicrous. The amount of Yankee fans condemning him after singing his praises in 2009 is typical of the fan base.

Like Bonds and Clemens before him, people will get over it once he retires
You don't talk for me. A-Rod is the best Yankee of his generation, come at me bros.
 
How does Curt Schilling get nearly 40% of the vote while Mussina manages just 25%? Is it really because Curt has 3,000 strikeouts? Had Mussina played two more seasons he would have hit 300wins and 3,000 strikeouts. Instead he chose to retire after a 20 win season.

They are pretty comparable. Schilling has better numbers overall (a smidge) and the accomplishments these writers are looking for.
 
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