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[UNCMark]

Sorry, I meant to say that his throw was the same bad throw/play the pitcher made in Game 2, not that Salty did it twice. Salty's throw was certainly better than the Game 2 throw, but it was still an overall similar scenario.

Same shit different day. Both cost my team a win. Only positive I can draw from last night is we should have lost by far more than we did.

 

[Enron]

Lol wtf?

All the people in here hating, shit ... half of them aren't even fuckin Card fans.

hahahaha

Not word for word, but he just basically said this:

Middlebrooks "I'm not in the baseline, I'm 5 feet out, the umpire told me I have to try and get myself out of there quicker"

Feet/legs clearly in the baseline, and definitely not "5 feet out". lulz.

 

[Peru]

That's not when he was supposedly obstructing.

 

[Square Triangle]

It's so amusing reading the Facebook comments as MLB continues to post status about last night. It's all pink hats from Boston

 

[chuckddd]

That's not when he was supposedly obstructing.

He kicked his feet up in an attempt to get out of the baseline. It all makes sense now.

 

[Enron]

...and still obstructed.


Edit: and still not "5 feet out"

 

[eznark]

This is too funny. So many lifelongs losing their shit over something they didn't care about three months ago.

 

[spliced]

Just when it looked like Boston were gonna luck out again that happens. I'd love to see all the reactions in the Boston sports bars.

 

[Square Triangle]

This is too funny. So many lifelongs losing their shit over something they didn't care about three months ago.

 

[RumblingRosco]

I'm reading some of the Facebook comments on MLB's posts about the game, and fuck, people are still blaming Beltran for getting beaned. While I'm fine with saying he should have done more to try and get out of the way, Boston has one of the most infamous "lean into the pitch" batters in postseason history in Victorino, who has been beaned more than anyone. It just doesn't make any sense for the pot to call the kettle black when the pot is clearly a much darker shade.

 

[Square Triangle]

I'm reading some of the Facebook comments on MLB's posts about the game, and fuck, people are still blaming Beltran for getting beaned. While I'm fine with saying he should have done more to try and get out of the way, Boston has one of the most infamous "lean into the pitch" batters in postseason history in Victorino, who has been beaned more than anyone. It just doesn't make any sense for the pot to call the kettle black when the pot is clearly a much darker shade.

Same fan base who cheered on Youkilis for years too.

 

[Y2Kev]

Boston must lose the series because of their stupid beards.

 

[Sanjuro]

I'm reading some of the Facebook comments on MLB's posts about the game, and fuck, people are still blaming Beltran for getting beaned. While I'm fine with saying he should have done more to try and get out of the way, Boston has one of the most infamous "lean into the pitch" batters in postseason history in Victorino, who has been beaned more than anyone. It just doesn't make any sense for the pot to call the kettle black when the pot is clearly a much darker shade.

Maybe if he wasn't a filthy PED user Facebook would like him!!

 

[eznark]

Maybe if he wasn't a filthy PED user Facebook would like him!!

Facebook doesn't like Big Papi?

 

[Link]

I fell asleep just now saw the ending. Bullshit call!

But realistically yeah, we cheated. If he didn't, I doubt there would have even been a play at the plate. Good game, Cards. I hope we get a bunch more like it.

Most of us aren't even saying that. We realize Middlebrooks wasn't purposely trying to trip up Craig, but intent has nothing to do with an obstruction call.

 

[Sanjuro]

Facebook doesn't like Big Papi?

You mistake me for someone who cares about PED users!

Also, Facebook loves fat people, yes.

Sanjuro loves the Tobin Bridge.

 

[Edwardo]

I just can't stand what Salty has been doing. Literally one of the first things you learn at the lowest levels of little league is to not throw the ball around. He's struck out 19 times in 32 at bats. He can't throw to second, and he can't throw to first. Why do we even have him in?

I'm not gonna claim to be a rulebook aficionado, but since a runner establishes the basepath, what is the ruling for when a runner leaves the basepath to avoid being tagged out, etc. I know it's a different situation, just curious.

Facebook doesn't like Big Papi?

Everyone should love Big Papi.

Boston must lose the series because of their stupid beards.

Blood, Sweat, and Beards. I've been growing mine for a while now. Still not on Napoli's level though. That thing is a beast.

 

[eznark]

I love all steroid abusers except Varitek.

 

[Link]

I'm not gonna claim to be a rulebook aficionado, but since a runner establishes the basepath, what is the ruling for when a runner leaves the basepath to avoid being tagged out, etc. I know it's a different situation, just curious.

He's called out.

 

[Edwardo]

He's called out.

Here's another hypothetical. Let's say Craig runs around Middlebrooks on that play instead of tripping and then falling over him. Does Craig get called out for leaving the basepath, does nothing happen because the runner creates the basepath, or is obstruction called and Craig automatically scores?

 

[Link]

Here's another hypothetical. Let's say Craig runs around Middlebrooks on that play instead of tripping and then falling over him. Does Craig get called out for leaving the basepath, does nothing happen because the runner creates the basepath, or is obstruction called and Craig automatically scores?

He wouldn't be called out because he wasn't avoiding a tag, just like how a runner is out of the base path when rounding a base. Obstruction likely wouldn't be called.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Just woke up and read the last 100-150 posts or so, I had a good laugh this morning at a couple of the more extreme ones.

Anyway, I enjoyed the game overall. The Cards need to not strand so many runners; the game should have ended as an 8-4 STL win after the top of the 9th, but we had to strand bases loaded with no outs in the 4th plus a few other issues with stranding runners sprinkled throughout the game. I also would have liked us to win by our own skill and no on a shitty throw by Salty who almost assuredly won't be starting tonight's game... meaning we've lost that avenue as a method to score.

We've stranded an obscene amount of people in all of our games so far - I think it was 12 alone last night. Multiple opportunities to Papi-proof the lead.

And we just lost Allen Craig for probably the rest of the series too (or at least it sounds like it).

 

[Edwardo]

He wouldn't be called out because he wasn't avoiding a tag, just like how a runner is out of the base path when rounding a base. Obstruction likely wouldn't be called.

Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Dmncnby2k9]

Man gonna have to watch this game. Everyone saying it was a hell of a game. Also the right call was made. Salty done fucked up.

 

[Opiate]

Here's another hypothetical. Let's say Craig runs around Middlebrooks on that play instead of tripping and then falling over him. Does Craig get called out for leaving the basepath, does nothing happen because the runner creates the basepath, or is obstruction called and Craig automatically scores?

Obstruction likely would not be called, but he would not automatically be called out, either. Running outside the basepaths isn't typically an automatic out (the exception being when trying to avoid a tag), but it does forfeit some rights. If you are running inside the basepaths, you have some rights like "if you throw the ball and hit me with it then I'm safe" and "if you block my way I'm safe." Those rights are forfeit if you run outside the base paths.

These rules exist and are also entirely appropriate. You can't win because you blocked/hit/messed with a runner who was simply running in a straight line from one base to another. On the other hand, if the runner takes some sort of loopy route because he's lazy or because he's trying to mess with the fielders, those basic rights are gone.

 

[3N16MA]

...and still obstructed.


Edit: and still not "5 feet out"

Should have game him the Nick Swisher special.

 

[vikki]

It doesn't matter if it's his feet or his dick, his body is obstruction.

The more I watch this the more I think the ump wouldn't have called obstruction had Middlebrooks not lifted his legs. There is very little time between initial contact and Craig's move to home. Would it still be considered obstruction had contact between the players was never broken?

I don't need a restating of the rule book. It's just that Middlebrooks was only put in a position to obstruct the runner after the runner interfered with Middlebrooks making a play on the ball. How does the league identify that he should not be in the way when it was kind of in the way because of the runner, and Salty's horrible throw?

 

[Sanjuro]

Makes sense. Thanks.

You don't have to be avoiding a tag to be called out. If a player abandons the sight of his base path he is also out.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

The more I watch this the more I think the ump wouldn't have called obstruction had Middlebrooks not lifted his legs. There is very little time between initial contact and Craig's move to home. Would it still be considered obstruction had contact between the players was never broken?

The umpires have said that Middlebrooks lifting his legs made little difference in the obstruction call. Him doing it definitely did not help, though.

I don't need a restating of the rule book. It's just that Middlebrooks was only put in a position to obstruct the runner after the runner interfered with Middlebrooks making a play on the ball. How does the league identify that he should not be in the way when it was kind of in the way because of the runner, and Salty's horrible throw?

The runner did not interfere with the play. Salty made a bad and unnecessary throw, Middlebrooks had to dive in the baseline in order to try to make the play and ended up obstructing the runner (and if Craig didn't trip he almost assuredly would have been safe at home), and it cost them the game. Simple as that. It's all on Salty. He should have kept that ball because Pete Kozma was the next batter up.

 

[3N16MA]

The more I watch this the more I think the ump wouldn't have called obstruction had Middlebrooks not lifted his legs. There is very little time between initial contact and Craig's move to home. Would it still be considered obstruction had contact between the players was never broken?

I don't need a restating of the rule book. It's just that Middlebrooks was only put in a position to obstruct the runner after the runner interfered with Middlebrooks making a play on the ball. How does the league identify that he should not be in the way when it was kind of in the way because of the runner, and Salty's horrible throw?

Craig did not interfere with Middlebrooks. Craig was sliding into third (which you're allowed to do) and it's not his fault that Saltalamacchia made a bad throw.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Stark

It doesn't matter whether or not Middlebrooks then kicked both his legs into the air on purpose, tripping up Craig a second time and preventing him from scoring.

It. Doesn't. Matter.

All that matters, Joyce would explain patiently later, is that "the baserunner has every right to go unobstructed to home plate, and, unfortunately, for Middlebrooks, he was right there, and there was contact, so he could not advance to home plate naturally."

So whether anyone meant to initiate any of that contact, it's irrelevant. Once Will Middlebrooks tripped up Allen Craig, and once the umpires determined that he would have scored without that contact, nothing else mattered. And this game was over.

Rosenberg

Middlebrooks said he thought to call that, the obstruction had to be intentional. But as crew chief John Hirschbeck said: "There does not have to be intent, OK?" He knows the rules.

This has been an amazing World Series, filled with great players and great plays. But in so many ways, baseball is a game of failure. You throw the wrong pitch in the wrong place, swing at ball four, miss the cutoff man, misjudge a popup ... failure defines the game.

The Red Sox failed plenty in Game 4. Peavy was shaky -- he put seven men on base in four innings, and started so slowly that it seemed like Boston relievers warmed up as soon as he did. Farrell inexplicably had his pitcher bat in the ninth inning of a tie game, barely used his closer Koji Uehara, and never used his best bat off the bench, Mike Napoli.

Even on that last play, which started with an amazing play by Pedroia, there was failure: Saltalamacchia made a wild throw and Middlebrooks failed to reach it. It was understandable. It was baseball. The best players in the world will fail, but they also make amazing plays. Umpires do not have to make amazing plays. They just have to get the calls right. Three years after the low point of his professional life, Jim Joyce showed he has learned. This time, he was right.

Verducci

Only under NL rules do benches, strategy and the great pastime of second-guessing come this much into play.

Get this straight: The Red Sox did not lose on a bad call by third-base umpire Jim Joyce and home plate umpire Dana DeMuth. The umpires got the call right. The Red Sox lost because for a second straight game they threw a ball away from home plate to third base.

You can go an entire season without seeing two throws by the same team air-mailed from home to third that allowed the winning run to score. And yet Boston pitcher Craig Breslow and catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia did exactly that in back-to-back games.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

One thing I've been wondering about, was there a rule preventing Yadi from trying to collide with Salty and het him to drop the ball? Some kinda respect thing between catchers? Trying to keep the play alive and give Craig the opportunity to score?

 

[Opiate]

One thing I've been wondering about, was there a rule preventing Yadi from trying to collide with Salty and het him to drop the ball? Some kinda respect thing between catchers? Trying to keep the play alive and give Craig the opportunity to score?

The last explanation seems wildly implausible to me: it suggests some fantastic knowledge of the eventual outcome of what was by all accounts an extremely unusual play. The former two are possible. It might also have simply been to avoid injury for himself: Yadi is not an agile man.

 

[Opiate]

Stark



Rosenberg



Verducci

Yes, I can't find a journalist who thinks it was a bad call. I might be able to find one that lives in Boston, but otherwise the universal opinion seems to be that the correct call was made and that this is something of a redemption for Joyce, who was the umpire who clearly blew the perfect game call 3 years ago.

 

[RumblingRosco]

One thing I've been wondering about, was there a rule preventing Yadi from trying to collide with Salty and het him to drop the ball? Some kinda respect thing between catchers? Trying to keep the play alive and give Craig the opportunity to score?

No rule to prevent the collision, but probably a mutual catcher thing. Great decision as it turned out thanks to the shitty Salty throw.

 

[Sanjuro]

Molina isn't really a tough catcher and is probably their most valuable player.

 

[3N16MA]

Molina isn't really a tough catcher and is probably their most valuable player.

I would say he is definitely their most valuable player and best catcher in the game.

 

[vas_a_morir]

I need to go to the Red Sox reddit to see some homer complaining.

 

[Sanjuro]

I need to go to the Red Sox reddit to see some homer complaining.

Jesus Chris. Just watch the fucking video! They blew the call last night. If the fucking umpire was looking in the correct direction, he would have clearly seen the offensive pass interference...but nooooOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Sanjuro]

I would say he is definitely their most valuable player and best catcher in the game.

He is top five for sure.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Any GIFs of Drew's one-handed swing? I want to bask in its glory.

 

[eznark]

Molina only attacks guys when he has all of his pads on. He is a bitch.

 

[Edwardo]

Any GIFs of Drew's one-handed swing? I want to bask in its glory.

pls no. i'll cry.

 

[Opiate]

The best shortstop on the free agent market this offseason is Stephen Drew.

Ugh. It's the one position we can't seem to fix.

 

[3N16MA]

Molina only attacks guys when he has all of his pads on. He is a bitch.

Well Lucroy's wife did fracture his hand with a violent suitcase assault.

 

[Sanjuro]

The best shortstop on the free agent market this offseason is Stephen Drew.

Ugh. It's the one position we can't seem to fix.

BEST IN THE WORLD

 

[RumblingRosco]

pls no. i'll cry.

It's really nothing to do with me making fun of Boston, but to remind myself how happy I have been with the Drew family. I think J.D. Drew has done more for the Cards (what with being traded for Wainwright about a decade ago) but Stephen Drew is giving JD a run for his money this series/postseason.

 

[eznark]

Well Lucroy's wife did fracture his hand with a violent suitcase assault.

I guess a mod must have deleted my "lucroy is a badass" post because I can't seem to find it.

 

[3N16MA]

I guess a mod must have deleted my "lucroy is a badass" post because I can't seem to find it.

They all can't be badasses like Cervelli.

 

[FunnyBunny]

I love the assumption most Red Sox fans will never get over this call and disagree with the umpires.

Most Sox fans I know, myself included, think it was the right call and that Farrell mismanaged the game in the late innings horribly.

Oh, and Saltalamacchia is not a popular man in Boston right now.