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[MLiD] XBOX Magnus RDNA 5 Finalized
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Rumor Hardware
Would be simply interesting to see it play out. Like, how much could MS actually benefit from it? Etc.Why would it be?
demigod
Member
My man
DenchDeckard
thinking we will go from PS2 to Xbox 360 graphics again with low pricepoint.
DenchDeckard
thinking we will go from PS2 to Xbox 360 graphics again with low pricepoint.
Kazekage1981
Member
Even if Magnus has more RAM, and 40% better than PS6 on paper, I think with all this overhead and OS bloat, it will most likely be 10%-15% better. But the real question is better in what? Shouldnt the major change in architecture produce exceptional visual fidelity to the point of diminishing returns or will it regress to more shitty DF videos on: Magnus having more grass and shrubs in certain areas, shadow details being better when character is walking, less pixelated grass blades and flowers. I mean like come on!
LLC just means last-level cache. So even if you believe XSX has no L3 then L2 becomes its "LLC".
digital_ghost
I am a closet furry. Don't you judge me.
Does that mean the next Generation of XBox is slightly more powerful than a Nintendo Switch 2
MCH2024
Member
Yea yea. I missed up the acronyms. The point still stands. PS5 / XSX have the same 2SE/4SA despite xbox stuffing an extra 16CU into it.
yea yea. Doesn't change my point. I already edited it in.
Ramiro_Rodriguez
Member
Not much, with a msrp around 1200 $, with the prices of the Game Pass tiers and since every MS game is and will be a multiplattform-title.
MisterXDTV
Member
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
… which does not help since the front-end is the same and running at a lower clockspeed.
Shogmaster
Member
36GB safely $1200. 48GB will be close but over.
MisterXDTV
Member
It's poetic in a way
MS pivots to PC just as that market is crashing
They always have the perfect strategy until they don't
MS pivots to PC just as that market is crashing
They always have the perfect strategy until they don't
PaintTinJr
Member
What point? You didn't address the more realistic simplified bandwidth compromises on the XsX - from the two memory pool contention - I explained and just doubled down on info that misrepresents the XsX memory balancing act when trying to use a unified 12GB with the GPU.
Let's put some depth into the simple theoretical exercise of a unified 12GB for the XsX GPU.
Off the bat we'll look at CPU bandwidth.
40GB/s is in the ballpark from the Road to PS5, so we'll use that for both systems.
on PS5 that's a simple unified deduction,
448GB/s - 40GB/s = 408GB/s for a 12GB VRAM pool for use with the GPU.
On XsX we have 10GB/s at 560GB/s and 6GBs at 336GB/s but the CPU 40GB/s is from 336GB/s where both bandwidths share unified processing time so 40/336 = ~12% instantly means the 560GBs is depleted to use just 88% of the time (~494GB/s) before we start looking at the 2GB of VRAM on the CPU memory side.
If we say a typical game sticking with 10GBs of VRAM averagely uses (494/10) 49.4GB/s per GB for argument sake - omitting all inefficiencies for this example. But as we are now moving up to 12GB that distribution no longer holds, so first of all we need to work out how much longer the GPU processing will take to complete a CPU memory bottlenecked task on the 2GB compared to a GPU memory bottlenecked task on 2GBs of the 10GBs. Which should be merely dividing 560/336, giving us a ratio of x 1.66 (5/3rds).
To then workout how much of that remaining 88% of the processing time is needed for 2GB at 336GB/s versus the 10GBs at 560GBs - to give each GB equally processing capacity we need to scale the 2GBs by the 5/3rds and treat it as (10/3) 3.3GBs vs 10GBs, effectively normalizing the bandwidths for both pools.
That way you get A) = 3.3/13.3 x 0.88 and B) = 10/13.3 x 0.88 to get
A) (10/3) /(40/3) x0.88 = (30/120) x 0.88 = (1/4) x 0.88 = 0.22
B) 10/(40/3) x 0.88 = (30/40) x 0.88 = (3/4) x 0.88 = 0.66
so then we get in total for the CPU memory (0.12 + A) x 336 = (0.12 + 0. 22) x 336 = 114.24 GB/s
+
the GPU side 0.66 x 560 = 369.6 GB/s
= 483.84 GB/s
which in these idealised circumstances is already a lot closer to the unified 448GB/s of the PS5 bandwidth and in real terms the 22%(0.22) percent of the 336GBs isn't 114.24GBs for the GPU, because it is wasteful by a factor of 5/3rds meaning in real bandwidth terms to the GPU it is actually 44.35GBs, which when added back to the 66% (0.66) 369.6 GB/s produces a GPU total effective bandwidth of ~414GB/s versus the PS5's 408GB/s.
The major missing piece here is that this is all idealised for the XsX memory use, without the big efficiency losses of copying between the pools with redundant data that are necessary, the need for a second garbage collector/memory defragger for the slower pool taking further bandwidth time, and the small percentage memory controller efficiency loss for switching modes/pools, even if assuming all of those solutions are perfect too despite the greater complexity.
Realistically the XsX using 10GBs for VRAM probably matches the PS5 for real-time GPU bandwidth, and at 12GBs in real game code is probably (90% of that 414GB number via complexity) around the 370GB/s - obviously still ignoring that all these figures will be actually lower scaled equivalents of their theoretical maximums used here.
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Fess
Member
Yes DF will do PC vs PS videos, same as they already do.
I don't think they will have specific Xbox vs PS videos anymore, it's more likely that they'll do Steam Machine vs Xbox videos since that's the same product segment.
MCH2024
Member
Good write up. It's quite informative/interesting.
What you're essentially saying is that because the CPU accesses the memory bus at a lower rate, the effective bandwidth use of the CPU is higher. Thus my estimate of 504 GB/s for the extreme highly unlikely scenario (12/12.5GB to GPU) isn't accurate and that it should be ~477 GB/s. Or specifically, 40 * 560 / 336 =66.667. 26.7 GB/s wasted by CPU.
imo the scenario is so rare it's borderline irrelevant (a scenario where dGPU uses than 12/12.5GB). However I will engage since you put a decent amount of effort.
First, the 40 GB/s bandwidth for the CPU is on the high end.
Not a single game over 20 GB/s. Most below 10 GB/s for CPU. A game where CPU uses 500 MBs total will not have the CPU use 40 GB/s or even 20 GB/s. But lets be safe and say 20 GB/s
In other-words, CPU uses 20 * 560 / 336 = 33.3 GB/s
Instead of a 504 GB/s effective memory BW as I said. It's 504 - (33.3-20) = 491 GB/s once you account for CPU's accesses being slower.
This is an interesting technical discussion. However, this isn't a useful one. XSX having a slightly lesser memory bw lead over PS5 under extreme conditions doesn't explain WHY PS5 is beating it. This is why I was getting irritated.
The actual story of why XSX is losing is the weaker front end. And it's being buried while we discuss precisely how much faster is XSX's memory bandwidth.
And it's the relevant conversation since magnus has a 26-31% stronger backend and 33% stronger front end at the same clock. And magnus is expected to clock higher, has more than double the L2 cache and has a wider unified memory bus.
This is what I meant by saying that PS6 Can't compete and that Magnus is basically a PS6 Pro. Sony tied last gen because MSFT fumbled. Xbox haven't repeated XSX's mistakes.
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PropellerEar
Member
It's ~3:1 for PS5... 4:1 at the end of gen.
It will be >9:1 for PS6.
They just don't need to compete, Xbox is dead.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Tied? In what universe do you call it a tie?
meech
Member
Maybe they will sell it boundled with a long term( 2 years) gamepass premium subscription.
Bernardougf
Gold Member
You are ignoring the fact that the Xbox (outside maybe MS studios games) will run PC games and not dedicated software made specifically for it, nobody is going to bother to make "xbox" version of games, so any advantage it has over the Ps6 is going to be nullified right there and it will get even worse as times goes by, specially since many devs will use just the ps6 as baseline for development.
It all remains to be seen but if Xbox its just a "ps6pro" running pc storefront games, than I risk to say the ps6 will have the uperhand eventually and more definitely in games developed using the ps6 as baseline and then ported to pc.
The hardware gap dosent look large enough to surpass dedicated software development vs generic storefront pc game
Zathalus
Member
The PC market isn't crashing. Temporary price hikes will stall growth in 2026/2027, but PC gaming itself isn't at risk.
Tobimacoss
Member
Now prove your point that Magnus won't have dedicated Console SKUs for the Xbox ecosystem. Don't just make things up to fit your bias, bring some evidence. The other guy said there won't even be any Xbox ecosystem versions at all, even PC SKUs, and that MS will be selling Steam/Epic games, lmao.
PropellerEar
Member
Prove your point shenshitsu.
Boy bawang
Member
I can't wait for these new consoles to release so we realise once more that power is not what is limiting the current games.
Asset87
Neo Member
This new Xbox should be cheaper and smaller, since it uses a semi-custom soc. Also will bc with previous consoles.
But yes, it's a PC.
I would love a Xbox with a GameSir G7 Pro controller, and a small form factor.
MCH2024
Member
Misinformation. No, Console doesn't magically outperform just because it's a console. PS5 still often performs like a 6650XT with slightly more VRAM. Not to mention, XSX runs DX12 to begin with.
PS5 outperforming XSX was never optimization. Developers attribute PS5 being easier to work with to explain the result. But again PS5 GPU was winning through a pure hardware lead.
It won't be possible to overcome a ~40% GPU Perf Lead.
XSX2 is just PS6 Pro, that's all.
This is more a 2020 take since PC is now bigger than console and a primary target.
PS5 lazy ports issue with PC is the misalignment around VRAM amounts.
Magnus architecturally is like PS6, it's just a scaled up version of it.
The major issue for Magnus is that it's cursed with Radeon drivers. But that's an inconvenience more than anything.
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LOL
All the hardware advantage of the "magnUs" over the PS6 will be lost in the garbage DirectX and bloatware of Windows.
PropellerEar
Member
Nonsense biggest and most important target is and will continue to be PlayStation for most third-party games.
That's where customers who actually pay for games are and will be.
MCH2024
Member
Twice as many developers surveyed by GDC say they want to make games on PS5 or Switch 2 than on Xbox | VGC
PC remains the most popular system among developers by far…
www.videogameschronicle.com
Look at the survey. PC is the premier platform.
If a developer dares not optimize for PC (for Nvidia GPU, it doesn't matter if it's optimized for AMD), their game automatically flops regardless of how well it does on PS5. See BL4.
PC gaming is terribly misunderstood. PC Gamers don't touch AMD hardware until Nvidia hardware is cost prohibitive or unavailable. Nvidia share is 94% of dGPU market.
PC defacto is a unified single vendor (Nvidia) platform with a central vision (RTX / DLSS / AI). So developers target it.
Which would be an issue for Magnus a little. Since PC games will be built for Nvidia and then it's incumbent on AMD to put in hard driver level work to keep up. And in the past they basically defacto discontinue their stuff within 4 years. Wouldn't put it above AMD to try to get Microsoft to help them maintain their drivers.
It's really only some Japanese devs who prioritize PS5 atp.
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Radical_3d
Member
Developers don't make the calls. Executives do. Devs are a bunch of nerds, of course they prefer PC.Twice as many developers surveyed by GDC say they want to make games on PS5 or Switch 2 than on Xbox | VGC
PC remains the most popular system among developers by far…
Look at the survey. PC is the premier platform.
If a developer dares not optimize for PC (for Nvidia GPU, it doesn't matter if it's optimized for AMD), their game automatically flops regardless of how well it does on PS5. See BL4.
PC gaming is terribly misunderstood. PC Gamers don't touch AMD hardware until Nvidia hardware is cost prohibitive or unavailable. Nvidia share is 94% of dGPU market.
PC defacto is a unified single vendor (Nvidia) platform with a central vision (RTX / DLSS / AI). So developers target it.
Which would be an issue for Magnus a little. Since PC games will be built for Nvidia and then it's incumbent on AMD to put in hard driver level work to keep up. And in the past they basically defacto discontinue their stuff within 4 years. Wouldn't put it above AMD to try to get Microsoft to help them maintain their drivers.
It's really only some Japanese devs who prioritize PS5 atp.
PropellerEar
Member
Take-two(Rockstar), Activision, EA and Ubisoft.
Biggest western developers.
You are so wrong as one can be.
MCH2024
Member
Even the Japanese surveys where developers were asked what platform they were building for PC beat PS5.
Console as an optimization target isn't what it used to be in 2010's. Microsoft shitting the bed and the leaders (Switch / PS5) being widely divergent as targets doesn't help. But PC by itself is definitely bigger than PS5. It has grown considerably.
Sony's competition is Nvidia. (dGPU vs console)
Microsoft's competition is Valve. (SteamOS vs Windows)
It's ironic isn't it.
Radical_3d
Member
Ok. Short sentences, I see. Most developers are indie or small. Can't afford console development. Straight to PC. Therefore if you ask developers a big percentage are going to answer PC. In big companies the devs have nothing to say. The money is elsewhere. Primary target never shifted.
MCH2024
Member
They release like this so they can charge for the same game repeatedly. It's a price strategy. But the PC version is always hyper optimized and amazing in quality. PC is not deprioritized at all.
You're not getting my point. it's not that PS5 doesn't get a target. it's that PC is a target too.
So PS6 won't make up a 40% gap because XSX2 is a PC. Xbox / Windows share the same kernel, and XSX ran DX12 to begin with. Above all, PS5 GPU performs like a 6650 XT in most games. It doesn't get magically faster because it's console. When PC underperforms it (5-10% of games) it's usually because of copy paste ports not working with NUMA in mind
Zathalus
Member
It has shifted for some. Capcom most notably.
PropellerEar
Member
Yes it is. Text book 2nd tier release.
Nice to skip all the other big Western devs. What's your excuse there?
MCH2024
Member
Lmao.
Again it's a GTA thing. They want you to buy it on PS5, then on PC, then on PS5. Did you forget GTA V?
Radical_3d
Member
Bojji
Gold Member
GTA always operated like that, it even was PS2 time exclusive for every release.
MCH2024
Member
Actual story with Magnus is cost.
If Microsoft can't reliably be certain that they can earn a commission on games they won't be able to offer the console at cost.
Remember when I said in this environment with tariffs, PS6 is 899$?
Well XSX2 is probably at least 1,799$ if Microsoft can't earn after sales.
The cost spirals out of control completely. And suddenly it's just a high end AMD PC.
The market for an AMD high end PC that's sold at a profit doesn't exist. So they have to find a Way to launch at cost.
If Microsoft wants to launch at cost (~1200$ currently) like PS6, they need to be able to:
1. Prevent piracy
2. Take a 30% commission out of a significant % of purchases.
3. Take a 10-15% commission out of approved stores.
4. Lock certain system functionality behind Game pass. the conversion rate has to be high. as high as sony forcing PS5/6 gamers to cough up 80 (soon to be 100-120$) for online.
They can't do it. So the case has to be how Magnus can he a vehicle for Microsoft to justify increasingly locking down the entire PC platform.
An analysis that compares PS6 with XSX2 misses the point completely. It's not PS6 vs XSX2, it's Steam Machine/Deck 2 vs XSX2 and Windows vs Linux.
TLDR: MSFT is not in the business of selling billions of 0% margin boxes unless they have a concrete case for how they can earn significant recurring revenue through it.
If Microsoft can't reliably be certain that they can earn a commission on games they won't be able to offer the console at cost.
Remember when I said in this environment with tariffs, PS6 is 899$?
Well XSX2 is probably at least 1,799$ if Microsoft can't earn after sales.
The cost spirals out of control completely. And suddenly it's just a high end AMD PC.
The market for an AMD high end PC that's sold at a profit doesn't exist. So they have to find a Way to launch at cost.
If Microsoft wants to launch at cost (~1200$ currently) like PS6, they need to be able to:
1. Prevent piracy
2. Take a 30% commission out of a significant % of purchases.
3. Take a 10-15% commission out of approved stores.
4. Lock certain system functionality behind Game pass. the conversion rate has to be high. as high as sony forcing PS5/6 gamers to cough up 80 (soon to be 100-120$) for online.
They can't do it. So the case has to be how Magnus can he a vehicle for Microsoft to justify increasingly locking down the entire PC platform.
An analysis that compares PS6 with XSX2 misses the point completely. It's not PS6 vs XSX2, it's Steam Machine/Deck 2 vs XSX2 and Windows vs Linux.
TLDR: MSFT is not in the business of selling billions of 0% margin boxes unless they have a concrete case for how they can earn significant recurring revenue through it.
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Somebody clearly didn't play GTAIV on PC. It's not hard to admit that consoles are prioritised with GTA.
Bojji
Gold Member
Yes. But they learned after that GTA4 horror port and both GTA5 and RDR2 were pretty great.
MCH2024
Member
Who cares about the 2000's?
GTA V and RDR2 were both pristine PC ports LMAO.
Again Take two has repeatedly detailed their strategy of getting people who own GTA On platform 0 to buy it on platform 1.
Orbital2060
Member
Why would Sony tape out an SoC for the PS6 now if theyre not going to release for several years? I dont understand.
You need to choose your words more carefully
"But the PC version is always hyper optimized"
And the reason that it has gone more smoothly more recently is only because the difference in architectures between a PC and PS/Xbox have become smaller and smaller since GTAIV, not because they have changed priorities. Console is still the priority.
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MCH2024
Member
Market conditions changed so they had to set on it
Switch 2 Taped out in 2021. Nintendo sat on it for 4 years because Switch1 sales were unexpectedly strong.
PropellerEar
Member
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Orbital2060
Member
Ok, thanks.