The perfect cure for ppl up north having a hard time falling asleep.
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MMA |OT2| - Thread of Athletes, Fighters, Personalities, and Sports Entertainment
- Thread starter yacobod
- Start date
The perfect cure for ppl up north having a hard time falling asleep.
God, I'm so jealous. ):
Ninja Scooter
Member
Ninja Scooter
Member
Dana should get drunk as fuck for shows and press conferences. It seems to mellow him the fuck out.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
Was Anthony Johnson 215 pounds when he was at 170? Apparently that is what he weighs now.
parrotbeak
Member
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
I don't understand why you would choose to fight at that weight when you could choose 2 other weight classes.
parrotbeak
Member
He wrestled in college so was probably used to cutting a lot of weight and could do it while still young. Now he's getting older it's going to get harder, so it makes sense to start fighting in mw; probably end up in lhw later. He's got a great reach at 78 inches even for lhw.
the advantage of being the bigger man
Maklershed
Member
Amir Sadollah, Ken Stone, and Cody McKenzie backed out of their upcoming fights today due to injury.
dream
Member
Meltzer's take on Brock: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=34002749&postcount=4004
actually fuck it, they're being gross in there and my UFCGAF brothers shouldn't be subjected to their grodiness
Brock Lesnar’s MMA career ended on 12/30 with almost the exact same reaction as when it began.
When Lesnar started, both in K-1, and umpteen times more before his 2008 debut in the UFC against Frank Mir, you had a number of diametrically opposed schools of thought. He was a fake pro wrestler who was going to be humiliated by the real fighters in UFC. He was a freak athlete with great wrestling ability, strength and speed, who when he learned to fight, was going to be difficult to beat in a year. He was the worst thing for UFC, made UFC into a joke, and if he would bring in more fans, those aren’t the kind of fans we want. Or, he was the best thing for UFC, would expand their audience and be one of the biggest draws the company ever had.
After his first fight, the reactions just intensified. He was humiliated and tapped out in 90 seconds. He knocked down a former world champion twice, and when Steve Mazzagatti ordered a stand-up due to punches to the back of the head, he saved Mir, who was a goner and got a submission only because Lesnar made a rookie mistake. And once again, it was either a joke he was on the card, a joke that he was pushed, and bad that he brought 300,000 homes that had never once purchased a UFC PPV show ordering, because again, we don’t want those kind of fans. Or he was an instant draw, and the way he manhandled Mir, once he learned more about fighting, he’d be almost unstoppable.
Then he fought Heath Herring, a veteran who was going to humiliate the fake pro wrestler. Once again, it was either impressive than Lesnar dominated Herring for three straight rounds, breaking his orbital bone with a punch that sent Herring head over heels. Ironically Herring’s fall was just as exaggerated as Lesnar’s against Cain Velasquez, which was used as evidence that Lesnar can’t take a punch. Or it was Lesnar having Herring down for three rounds and couldn’t even submit him, and suddenly Herring, who at one point while in Japan was pushed as the top American heavyweight, was never any good to begin with, or if he was, he was long since washed up even though he was actually a year younger than Lesnar and had just turned 30.
Next was Randy Couture, an all-time great and the reigning UFC world heavyweight champion. People were 50-50 on this one, but everyone knew for sure they were right. Couture would either humiliate Lesnar and even out wrestle him, out box him and make him look like a joke in a title shot he didn’t deserve and those big muscles would gas quickly. Or Lesnar was a younger, bigger and stronger wrestler, Couture’s main attribute, and would win the title.
Once again, people looked at it their own way. Lesnar won via second round knockout to become UFC champion in his third match with the company and fourth match overall. Without question, Lesnar got the shot because he and Couture were expected, and did do huge numbers, roughly 920,000 buys on PPV, the second biggest total up to that point in time in company history. You would think his winning the title would at least shut up the claim it was a joke he was champion.
Instead, the take was to attack Couture. Couture was old, too small, washed up, even though the same Couture had a match of the year candidate in his next outing. Lesnar won via knockout in the second after winning the first round obviously on all three scorecards, he somehow was losing the entire fight as well as getting outwrestled, and gassing out because he had no conditioning. To Couture’s credit, with his greater wrestling experience he was able to defend well against Lesnar and make him fight to get him down. And Couture did once nearly take Lesnar down. It was a competitive fight. Lesnar took punches from Couture, was bloodied up, wasn’t hurt badly by the punches, caught Couture and the telling blow was winning a standing exchange.
Against Mir, he was the worst thing that ever happened to the sport, even as he helped draw one of the five biggest PPV numbers in the history of PPV, and largest non-boxing number ever. Against Shane Carwin, he either proved he had heart in spades, coming back from a terrible first round beating, or it was a ref who should have stopped the fight, and he only won because Carwin gassed. When Cain Velasquez finally beat him, it exposed he was a joke all along to some. Others noted he lost to a guy who just was a better fighter, a guy who was strong enough as a wrestler that Lesnar couldn’t dominate him that way, and was much better standing.
Alistair Overeem came to Las Vegas for his UFC debut with his own set of question marks. While fighting in a very tough light heavyweight division, he had a 6-6 record in the Pride Fighting Championships and was finished in the first round by Chuck Liddell, Shogun Rua (twice) and Ricardo Arona, and once in the second round by Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. He moved to heavyweight and was knocked out by Sergei Khartionov.
And then the moth came out of his cocoon. In 2007, as a heavyweight, weighing 224 pounds, he beat up Paul Buentello and won the Strikeforce heavyweight title in the second round. Since then, he’s had 11 fights, ten of which haven’t gotten out of the first round, and Lesnar, in lasting 2:26, lasted longer than seven of his last 11 foes.
Overeem himself was as polarizing as Lesnar. He was the greatest heavyweight in the world, because of two things. His quick wins, largely against nobodies, and his great physique. Well, there was also a third reason. Once Fedor Emelianenko faltered, the people who had claimed that the UFC heavyweights were second rate needed a new hero.
So these two monsters of the cage were headed to Las Vegas, both facing all kinds of problems that were both foreseen, and unforseen.
Lesnar had 12 inches of his colon removed at the end of May and had suffered from diverticulitis since an attack nearly killed him at the end of 2009. It was recommended he would have surgery, but he was UFC champion and there was tremendous money to be made in 2010 if he could just get back in shape. He got through the first fight, came in for the second fight in tremendous condition, but even though he looked great, he wasn’t feeling great. While preparing for a fight with Junior Dos Santos, he was sluggish in training, hoped he had a bug that would go away, rested, it didn’t go away, and deep down already knew the diverticulitis was back. He had surgery.
From talking with several people who had the surgery, all felt that he was coming back too quickly. But he got his size and strength back and at least looked like the old Brock Lesnar. But he was 34, had little time over the previous two years to concentrate on his deficiencies as a fighter. If he wasn’t sick, and at times when he was, he had to train for conditioning with a fight impending. He had already started older than most, and from day one, his career clock was ticking. That’s why he started out fighting a former world champion in his first fight. He wanted to know right away if he could do the sport, plus he wanted to make money. That meant fighting top people.
Exactly what Lesnar himself was thinking it’s impossible to know. Those close to him say he’s not good at hiding when you see his face. They noted when he came to the cage, he had that look that things were wrong. He had it in WWE when he was asked to do a job that he thought didn’t make sense, or confronted about something. But here the stakes were a lot higher. If something was wrong, he could get beat up. Bad.
Overeem had his issues with drug testing and his mother being sick. He left his camp in Las Vegas, filled with wrestlers, to go to Holland, where there were few if any top wrestlers, and certainly none like a healthy NCAA champion. He had to miss two key days of training to go to England and take a drug test. Then, the day before the fight, he was sued by his former management team. Then, the day of the fight, his former management team got an injunction that could have resulted in them having his purse for the fight put into escrow. He knew the former but seemed calm about it. He said that, until he was asked about it at the press conference, he didn’t know the latter, but he’s also a very good poker face. Unlike Lesnar whose face tells a different story depending on his mood, no matter what Overeem says or feels, his expression rarely changes.
Although Dana White had said he didn’t even think Overeem was a top ten heavyweight, UFC clearly saw star potential in him. The lawsuit filed by Knock Out Investments, the business name for the Golden Glory gym and team, which represented Overeem for the past 11 years, gave details as to his new contract.
The lawsuit, filed on 12/29 in Clark County, Nevada stated that when Overeem signed with UFC on 9/6, his contract specified that for his fight with Lesnar he would be receiving $264,285.71 as base pay, a $121,428.57 win bonus, as well as $2 per PPV buy for all revenue to Zuffa after the Zuffa company revenue from the show tops$500,000 (basically, the first 23,000 or so buys). In addition, there was a $1 million signing bonus, which would be broken down into another $333,333.33 for the first three fights of his contract. The contract itself, with the options put in place, would cover up to eight fights. If the show did 800,000 buys, Overeem would earn in the neighborhood of $2.26 million.
Knock Out Investments claimed that due to Overeem’s existing five-year contract with them that was signed in 2007, they are entitled to 30%. 30% of is pay between all the money he got for UFC 141 is $684,000, so that are fighting for a huge chunk of change. They also alleged Overeem never paid them their 30% from the 6/18 fight with Fabricio Werdum. Overeem had already, in November, filed suit against Knock Out Investments, claiming they owed him $151,000 prior to the Werdum fight based on fights he already had, and asked for a court order stating that due to that, his contract should be null and void. Prior to the Werdum fight, almost all of Overeem’s fight money, whether it was from Japan or previously with Strikeforce, was sent to Knock Out Investments and then after they got paid and took their cut, they paid their fighters. Zuffa, after purchasing Strikeforce, refused to continue that practice, stating that they were going to pay fighters and not management teams. At one point Zuffa even fired all of the Golden Glory fighters, including Overeem, because Golden Glory made the demand that they wanted the money to be paid to them. After firing a number of fighters, Overeem included, Golden Glory relented and agreed to let Zuffa pay the fighters. By that time Overeem had been fired and removed from the Strikeforce tournament, and at the time nobody knew the future of Strikeforce and Overeem would have been far more valuable on the UFC side.
The day of the fight, Knock Out Investments got an injunction in Nevada district court to put Overeem’s pay from the fight in escrow because they claimed he would possibly spend it before a ruling in a court case that would give them their share. Knock Out Investments had requested that Overeem’s show pay of $241,285.49 be paid by Zuffa directly to tem. However, the court asked Knock Out Investments to post a $200,000 bond to get his purse held up, and they didn’t do so.
“The reality is that a fighter is paid within 24 hours of the bout,” wrote Knock Out Investments attorney Roderick Lindblom. “Given past failure to pay management and training fees, there is serious concern on my client’s part that Mr. Overeem will simply walkaway with the money.”
Nevertheless, Overeem was calm all week. Lesnar was tense. After losing, Lesnar gave a speech in the cage announcing his retirement. He said he had already promised his wife that if he lost, he would retire. If he won, he would only fight one more time, for the championship, and then, win or lose, he would retire.
As far as why he made that decision, only he knows for sure. How much did the illness take away from him? How much athleticism and speed was he losing via age? Unlike most fighters, who when they lose a step, may still gain something with experience, Lesnar was inexperienced, not well rounded, and getting older, and getting by based on size, power, wrestling and athletic ability. You don’t find a lot of world class freestyle heavyweights in their late 30s that hang with the guys in their 20s. What did he think, what did he know, how did his camp really go? The fact he was considering retiring, and the look in his face as he came to the cage gives evidence of something.
While there was considerable debate on who would win the fight, there was little debate on what would happen. Either Lesnar would use his wrestling to win, or he wouldn’t be able to, and he would lose, quickly. The latter is what happened. Lesnar never changed levels to shoot for a takedown. Lesnar never rushed to get a tie-up and pin him against the fence, perhaps fearing unless he was able to totally smother him up close, he’d be open to Overeem’s strong knees to the body. He never even did a feint, using the threat of strikes, and he did throw punches and low kicks, and followed with a quick takedown attempt; He tried a half-hearted single leg at one point, his only attempt of the fight, and gave it up quickly. At another point, when Overeem threw a kick, he tried to catch the foot and use it for a takedown, but was a smidgen slow in catching. Lesnar did cut Overeem above the right eye with a punch, and threw some leg kicks, while being stalked. But the the way it was going, it just felt inevitable that Lesnar was playing Overeem’s game. It was a game he most likely not only couldn’t win, but couldn’t even survive a round playing.
And he didn’t. The key blow was a kick to the body that Lesnar said he believed broke one of his ribs. Lesnar did not go to the hospital after the fight, and instead flew home to Minnesota, so at this point if the rib was broken, it would have been diagnosed at home and only he and his inner circle know about it.
Lesnar appeared beaten before the fight started. Was it something that happened in training where he saw he didn’t have what he once had? You can point to Overeem stuffing his takedown and getting into his head, but Lesnar was a different person before the fight ever started. The fact he had promised to retire, and mentally sounded like he had his retirement speech ready, tells you all you need to know, other than the why, which can be speculated to being a dozen different things, all of which may have played a part.
When fighters lose, like B.J. Penn did two months ago, and announce their retirement, most of the time people listen and think, “He’ll change his mind.” And most of the time they’re right.
But nobody was questioning Lesnar. His situation is unique. Most fighters fight because it’s just what they do, and they don’t want to walk away from it. In most cases, they are driven by wanting to be somebody. Lesnar, as much as any athlete with an ego that I’ve ever seen, just doesn’t care. He doesn’t care what people say about him. He pays no attention to it. He’s probably earned in the neighborhood of $17 million in his MMA career, and that’s not including any endorsements. He doesn’t live big. He was one of those guys who made a lot and spent a lot when he was in his mid-20s as a pro wrestler, and then went back to making nothing. So the second time he made big money, he didn’t live large. He should have enough to last him the rest of his life, and there are always going to be some options to make money, although doubtful the kind of money he’s been making. For that reason alone, there may come a time in a year where I can see him considering it, because almost every wrestler and almost every fighter makes a comeback. And there will always be money in his comeback and there will always be more PPV slots than they have matches that can do Lesnar-business. So he probably has a few year window. But most figure he’s done and figure that if mentally that’s where he is, then it’s the right decision for him to make.
The obvious next question regards WWE. Lesnar has said a number of times that he would be willing to do a big pro wrestling match after he’s done as a fighter for the right money. He’s also still under contract to UFC. Dana White didn’t really give an answer when it came to whether he’d let him out of his contract to do pro wrestling, but there’s always a way to make a business deal between Vince McMahon and White, to cut his company in to make it work or pay a flat fee for one night. White noted that saying you’re retired doesn’t mean you’re out of your contract. But if he is really retired, there is a time frame of how long the contract runs for. The idea of Lesnar vs. Undertaker or Lesnar vs. Steve Austin at WrestleMania 29 is an obvious direction. The feeling was Lesnar could have earned $2 million or more if he could have done the match with Undertaker at last year’s Mania, particularly while being UFC champion, but the reality is there was no way UFC would have allowed that to happen as long as he was fighting for them. The crazy thing is that if he beat Overeem, which in hindsight was unlikely, and then beat Dos Santos, if he really would have retired then as champion, and then gone to WWE for a match or matches as the rightful champion when his UFC contract expired, it would have been one of Vince McMahon’s all-time greatest coups.
But how much he would have meant as UFC champion, or with the loss of the title but only one loss since the first Mir fight, as compared to no longer being in UFC and having been knocked out twice? My feeling is that the longer the time frame is between now and his debut, the less his UFC losses would mean as far as a negative to marketability. In addition, the longer he’s out of the public eye, the fresher he is, although there comes a point when it’s too many years where that isn’t the case anymore.
The next question is Lesnar’s legacy. Most have been positive about it. The reality is he was an amazing athlete who won the title despite inexperience and a long layoff from competitive sports, succeeding based on athletic ability and a lifetime of wrestling to beat some solid people at their own game.
Others, whether blinded by their hate for Lesnar, pro wrestling, or UFC, have used this loss to say he was never any good, and discredit him. Some have written he was the worst UFC heavyweight champion in history, which is beyond laughable. If you line up every UFC champion in history, when they were champion vs. what short window of prime Lesnar had, and Lesnar beats most of them almost every time. He’d pound Shamrock, Severn, Coleman, Randleman, Smith, Rodriguez, Sylvia and Mir into the mat when all of them were champions. He’d struggle with Couture before beating him the majority of the time if not almost every time. He’d beat the Josh Barnett when Barnett was champion, although I’m not sure what would happen if he fought today’s Barnett. He’d lose most of the time to Cain Velasquez, because that’s a bad style match for him. He may not beat Junior Dos Santos either, and as the sport evolves, he wouldn’t beat the majority of the champions of the future. He was a legitimate champion for his time, even though he had major holes in his game, and brought a ton of new fans to the sport, and drew more than anyone in history.
Lesnar’s legacy? There have been many NCAA champions who went on to become world champions in pro wrestling, and several who went on to be UFC champions. Lesnar is the only one who has done all three. And he likely will be the only one. He is one of only three people, along with Mike Tyson and Manny Pacquiao, who have drawn two 1 million buys shows in the same calendar year. Came in with no experience. Won the title. Drew big. Got badly ill. Made lots of money. Lost the title. Couldn’t work his way back to top contention. And got out.
Whether those fans will stay when he’s gone, my gut says some will and most won’t. But that’s the cycle of life in promoting individual sports based on super drawing cards. If it didn’t happen this year, it would have happened next year. Lesnar was not the guy who was going to stay around like Tito Ortiz or Chuck Liddell to lose most of his fights unless he needed the money.
With the change in location and the frequent drug tests, it was something of a surprise that Overeem weighed in at 263 pounds, only three pounds less than Lesnar, although the difference in the cage was probably closer to 15 pounds.
With the win, Overeem vs. Dos Santos now becomes the next in the line of biggest heavyweight title fights, if not in terms of money, in terms of ability, perhaps in history. Overeem asked for some time off, and Dana White said he’s hoping for that fight in the summer.
The other story of UFC 141 was that Jon Fitch and Donald Cerrone were seemingly one win away from at least being considered for title contention. Had Fitch beaten Johny Hendricks, while it was far from a lock, he’d have been a logical choice to face the Carlos Condit vs. Nick Diaz winner. Had Cerrone beaten Nate Diaz, he’d have been the odds-on favorite to face the Frankie Edgar vs. Ben Henderson winner. But they both lost.
Fitch was knocked out in 12 seconds by Hendricks, who made himself a star in one night. In a sport where anyone can lose, and a 12 second loss is often a fluke in many ways, Fitch was not the type of fighter who could afford a loss. He was always difficult to book. He’s won too often and too highly paid to not put on the PPV. But he risks killing shows in their tracks. He’s hard to book because most top fighters want to avoid fighting him. He’s hard to beat, and hard to get over on, although Hendricks jumped at the opportunity when offered. Now it’s even tougher, because he’s a big enough name he should be fighting top guys, but he’s not the guy you want to put in with a rising contender.
Cerrone won the award for worst mental game in history while Nate Diaz set a record for standing punches landed in a UFC fight in history, landing 260 total strikes and 238 significant strikes in a three round fight. Diaz outboxed Cerrone, kept the fight in a boxing range and not a kickboxing range. Cerrone was able to use his feet to sweep Diaz to the ground on a number of occasions. Since he was getting hammered standing and his corner was telling him to take him down, it made no sense that every time Cerrone got Diaz off his feet, he walked away instead of going to the ground and trying to punch him there. He would trip Diaz to his back, let him back up, so Diaz could continue to beat him up standing. Rinse and repeat. The match was tremendous. Not quite match of the year level but not far behind. With the best fight bonus, that made seven in the career of Cerrone, breaking the all-time record he shared with Chris Lytle. It was five for the career of Diaz.
In a speech to fighters before the show started, White praised Cerrone, noting that if guys want title shots, they should go out and finish fights, perhaps in reference to Fitch who had won a string of decisions. So after the big speech about finishing, the first six fights on the show all went to a decision.
The rare Friday night show at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas drew 12,158 fans and $3.1 million.
actually fuck it, they're being gross in there and my UFCGAF brothers shouldn't be subjected to their grodiness
Brock Lesnar’s MMA career ended on 12/30 with almost the exact same reaction as when it began.
When Lesnar started, both in K-1, and umpteen times more before his 2008 debut in the UFC against Frank Mir, you had a number of diametrically opposed schools of thought. He was a fake pro wrestler who was going to be humiliated by the real fighters in UFC. He was a freak athlete with great wrestling ability, strength and speed, who when he learned to fight, was going to be difficult to beat in a year. He was the worst thing for UFC, made UFC into a joke, and if he would bring in more fans, those aren’t the kind of fans we want. Or, he was the best thing for UFC, would expand their audience and be one of the biggest draws the company ever had.
After his first fight, the reactions just intensified. He was humiliated and tapped out in 90 seconds. He knocked down a former world champion twice, and when Steve Mazzagatti ordered a stand-up due to punches to the back of the head, he saved Mir, who was a goner and got a submission only because Lesnar made a rookie mistake. And once again, it was either a joke he was on the card, a joke that he was pushed, and bad that he brought 300,000 homes that had never once purchased a UFC PPV show ordering, because again, we don’t want those kind of fans. Or he was an instant draw, and the way he manhandled Mir, once he learned more about fighting, he’d be almost unstoppable.
Then he fought Heath Herring, a veteran who was going to humiliate the fake pro wrestler. Once again, it was either impressive than Lesnar dominated Herring for three straight rounds, breaking his orbital bone with a punch that sent Herring head over heels. Ironically Herring’s fall was just as exaggerated as Lesnar’s against Cain Velasquez, which was used as evidence that Lesnar can’t take a punch. Or it was Lesnar having Herring down for three rounds and couldn’t even submit him, and suddenly Herring, who at one point while in Japan was pushed as the top American heavyweight, was never any good to begin with, or if he was, he was long since washed up even though he was actually a year younger than Lesnar and had just turned 30.
Next was Randy Couture, an all-time great and the reigning UFC world heavyweight champion. People were 50-50 on this one, but everyone knew for sure they were right. Couture would either humiliate Lesnar and even out wrestle him, out box him and make him look like a joke in a title shot he didn’t deserve and those big muscles would gas quickly. Or Lesnar was a younger, bigger and stronger wrestler, Couture’s main attribute, and would win the title.
Once again, people looked at it their own way. Lesnar won via second round knockout to become UFC champion in his third match with the company and fourth match overall. Without question, Lesnar got the shot because he and Couture were expected, and did do huge numbers, roughly 920,000 buys on PPV, the second biggest total up to that point in time in company history. You would think his winning the title would at least shut up the claim it was a joke he was champion.
Instead, the take was to attack Couture. Couture was old, too small, washed up, even though the same Couture had a match of the year candidate in his next outing. Lesnar won via knockout in the second after winning the first round obviously on all three scorecards, he somehow was losing the entire fight as well as getting outwrestled, and gassing out because he had no conditioning. To Couture’s credit, with his greater wrestling experience he was able to defend well against Lesnar and make him fight to get him down. And Couture did once nearly take Lesnar down. It was a competitive fight. Lesnar took punches from Couture, was bloodied up, wasn’t hurt badly by the punches, caught Couture and the telling blow was winning a standing exchange.
Against Mir, he was the worst thing that ever happened to the sport, even as he helped draw one of the five biggest PPV numbers in the history of PPV, and largest non-boxing number ever. Against Shane Carwin, he either proved he had heart in spades, coming back from a terrible first round beating, or it was a ref who should have stopped the fight, and he only won because Carwin gassed. When Cain Velasquez finally beat him, it exposed he was a joke all along to some. Others noted he lost to a guy who just was a better fighter, a guy who was strong enough as a wrestler that Lesnar couldn’t dominate him that way, and was much better standing.
Alistair Overeem came to Las Vegas for his UFC debut with his own set of question marks. While fighting in a very tough light heavyweight division, he had a 6-6 record in the Pride Fighting Championships and was finished in the first round by Chuck Liddell, Shogun Rua (twice) and Ricardo Arona, and once in the second round by Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. He moved to heavyweight and was knocked out by Sergei Khartionov.
And then the moth came out of his cocoon. In 2007, as a heavyweight, weighing 224 pounds, he beat up Paul Buentello and won the Strikeforce heavyweight title in the second round. Since then, he’s had 11 fights, ten of which haven’t gotten out of the first round, and Lesnar, in lasting 2:26, lasted longer than seven of his last 11 foes.
Overeem himself was as polarizing as Lesnar. He was the greatest heavyweight in the world, because of two things. His quick wins, largely against nobodies, and his great physique. Well, there was also a third reason. Once Fedor Emelianenko faltered, the people who had claimed that the UFC heavyweights were second rate needed a new hero.
So these two monsters of the cage were headed to Las Vegas, both facing all kinds of problems that were both foreseen, and unforseen.
Lesnar had 12 inches of his colon removed at the end of May and had suffered from diverticulitis since an attack nearly killed him at the end of 2009. It was recommended he would have surgery, but he was UFC champion and there was tremendous money to be made in 2010 if he could just get back in shape. He got through the first fight, came in for the second fight in tremendous condition, but even though he looked great, he wasn’t feeling great. While preparing for a fight with Junior Dos Santos, he was sluggish in training, hoped he had a bug that would go away, rested, it didn’t go away, and deep down already knew the diverticulitis was back. He had surgery.
From talking with several people who had the surgery, all felt that he was coming back too quickly. But he got his size and strength back and at least looked like the old Brock Lesnar. But he was 34, had little time over the previous two years to concentrate on his deficiencies as a fighter. If he wasn’t sick, and at times when he was, he had to train for conditioning with a fight impending. He had already started older than most, and from day one, his career clock was ticking. That’s why he started out fighting a former world champion in his first fight. He wanted to know right away if he could do the sport, plus he wanted to make money. That meant fighting top people.
Exactly what Lesnar himself was thinking it’s impossible to know. Those close to him say he’s not good at hiding when you see his face. They noted when he came to the cage, he had that look that things were wrong. He had it in WWE when he was asked to do a job that he thought didn’t make sense, or confronted about something. But here the stakes were a lot higher. If something was wrong, he could get beat up. Bad.
Overeem had his issues with drug testing and his mother being sick. He left his camp in Las Vegas, filled with wrestlers, to go to Holland, where there were few if any top wrestlers, and certainly none like a healthy NCAA champion. He had to miss two key days of training to go to England and take a drug test. Then, the day before the fight, he was sued by his former management team. Then, the day of the fight, his former management team got an injunction that could have resulted in them having his purse for the fight put into escrow. He knew the former but seemed calm about it. He said that, until he was asked about it at the press conference, he didn’t know the latter, but he’s also a very good poker face. Unlike Lesnar whose face tells a different story depending on his mood, no matter what Overeem says or feels, his expression rarely changes.
Although Dana White had said he didn’t even think Overeem was a top ten heavyweight, UFC clearly saw star potential in him. The lawsuit filed by Knock Out Investments, the business name for the Golden Glory gym and team, which represented Overeem for the past 11 years, gave details as to his new contract.
The lawsuit, filed on 12/29 in Clark County, Nevada stated that when Overeem signed with UFC on 9/6, his contract specified that for his fight with Lesnar he would be receiving $264,285.71 as base pay, a $121,428.57 win bonus, as well as $2 per PPV buy for all revenue to Zuffa after the Zuffa company revenue from the show tops$500,000 (basically, the first 23,000 or so buys). In addition, there was a $1 million signing bonus, which would be broken down into another $333,333.33 for the first three fights of his contract. The contract itself, with the options put in place, would cover up to eight fights. If the show did 800,000 buys, Overeem would earn in the neighborhood of $2.26 million.
Knock Out Investments claimed that due to Overeem’s existing five-year contract with them that was signed in 2007, they are entitled to 30%. 30% of is pay between all the money he got for UFC 141 is $684,000, so that are fighting for a huge chunk of change. They also alleged Overeem never paid them their 30% from the 6/18 fight with Fabricio Werdum. Overeem had already, in November, filed suit against Knock Out Investments, claiming they owed him $151,000 prior to the Werdum fight based on fights he already had, and asked for a court order stating that due to that, his contract should be null and void. Prior to the Werdum fight, almost all of Overeem’s fight money, whether it was from Japan or previously with Strikeforce, was sent to Knock Out Investments and then after they got paid and took their cut, they paid their fighters. Zuffa, after purchasing Strikeforce, refused to continue that practice, stating that they were going to pay fighters and not management teams. At one point Zuffa even fired all of the Golden Glory fighters, including Overeem, because Golden Glory made the demand that they wanted the money to be paid to them. After firing a number of fighters, Overeem included, Golden Glory relented and agreed to let Zuffa pay the fighters. By that time Overeem had been fired and removed from the Strikeforce tournament, and at the time nobody knew the future of Strikeforce and Overeem would have been far more valuable on the UFC side.
The day of the fight, Knock Out Investments got an injunction in Nevada district court to put Overeem’s pay from the fight in escrow because they claimed he would possibly spend it before a ruling in a court case that would give them their share. Knock Out Investments had requested that Overeem’s show pay of $241,285.49 be paid by Zuffa directly to tem. However, the court asked Knock Out Investments to post a $200,000 bond to get his purse held up, and they didn’t do so.
“The reality is that a fighter is paid within 24 hours of the bout,” wrote Knock Out Investments attorney Roderick Lindblom. “Given past failure to pay management and training fees, there is serious concern on my client’s part that Mr. Overeem will simply walkaway with the money.”
Nevertheless, Overeem was calm all week. Lesnar was tense. After losing, Lesnar gave a speech in the cage announcing his retirement. He said he had already promised his wife that if he lost, he would retire. If he won, he would only fight one more time, for the championship, and then, win or lose, he would retire.
As far as why he made that decision, only he knows for sure. How much did the illness take away from him? How much athleticism and speed was he losing via age? Unlike most fighters, who when they lose a step, may still gain something with experience, Lesnar was inexperienced, not well rounded, and getting older, and getting by based on size, power, wrestling and athletic ability. You don’t find a lot of world class freestyle heavyweights in their late 30s that hang with the guys in their 20s. What did he think, what did he know, how did his camp really go? The fact he was considering retiring, and the look in his face as he came to the cage gives evidence of something.
While there was considerable debate on who would win the fight, there was little debate on what would happen. Either Lesnar would use his wrestling to win, or he wouldn’t be able to, and he would lose, quickly. The latter is what happened. Lesnar never changed levels to shoot for a takedown. Lesnar never rushed to get a tie-up and pin him against the fence, perhaps fearing unless he was able to totally smother him up close, he’d be open to Overeem’s strong knees to the body. He never even did a feint, using the threat of strikes, and he did throw punches and low kicks, and followed with a quick takedown attempt; He tried a half-hearted single leg at one point, his only attempt of the fight, and gave it up quickly. At another point, when Overeem threw a kick, he tried to catch the foot and use it for a takedown, but was a smidgen slow in catching. Lesnar did cut Overeem above the right eye with a punch, and threw some leg kicks, while being stalked. But the the way it was going, it just felt inevitable that Lesnar was playing Overeem’s game. It was a game he most likely not only couldn’t win, but couldn’t even survive a round playing.
And he didn’t. The key blow was a kick to the body that Lesnar said he believed broke one of his ribs. Lesnar did not go to the hospital after the fight, and instead flew home to Minnesota, so at this point if the rib was broken, it would have been diagnosed at home and only he and his inner circle know about it.
Lesnar appeared beaten before the fight started. Was it something that happened in training where he saw he didn’t have what he once had? You can point to Overeem stuffing his takedown and getting into his head, but Lesnar was a different person before the fight ever started. The fact he had promised to retire, and mentally sounded like he had his retirement speech ready, tells you all you need to know, other than the why, which can be speculated to being a dozen different things, all of which may have played a part.
When fighters lose, like B.J. Penn did two months ago, and announce their retirement, most of the time people listen and think, “He’ll change his mind.” And most of the time they’re right.
But nobody was questioning Lesnar. His situation is unique. Most fighters fight because it’s just what they do, and they don’t want to walk away from it. In most cases, they are driven by wanting to be somebody. Lesnar, as much as any athlete with an ego that I’ve ever seen, just doesn’t care. He doesn’t care what people say about him. He pays no attention to it. He’s probably earned in the neighborhood of $17 million in his MMA career, and that’s not including any endorsements. He doesn’t live big. He was one of those guys who made a lot and spent a lot when he was in his mid-20s as a pro wrestler, and then went back to making nothing. So the second time he made big money, he didn’t live large. He should have enough to last him the rest of his life, and there are always going to be some options to make money, although doubtful the kind of money he’s been making. For that reason alone, there may come a time in a year where I can see him considering it, because almost every wrestler and almost every fighter makes a comeback. And there will always be money in his comeback and there will always be more PPV slots than they have matches that can do Lesnar-business. So he probably has a few year window. But most figure he’s done and figure that if mentally that’s where he is, then it’s the right decision for him to make.
The obvious next question regards WWE. Lesnar has said a number of times that he would be willing to do a big pro wrestling match after he’s done as a fighter for the right money. He’s also still under contract to UFC. Dana White didn’t really give an answer when it came to whether he’d let him out of his contract to do pro wrestling, but there’s always a way to make a business deal between Vince McMahon and White, to cut his company in to make it work or pay a flat fee for one night. White noted that saying you’re retired doesn’t mean you’re out of your contract. But if he is really retired, there is a time frame of how long the contract runs for. The idea of Lesnar vs. Undertaker or Lesnar vs. Steve Austin at WrestleMania 29 is an obvious direction. The feeling was Lesnar could have earned $2 million or more if he could have done the match with Undertaker at last year’s Mania, particularly while being UFC champion, but the reality is there was no way UFC would have allowed that to happen as long as he was fighting for them. The crazy thing is that if he beat Overeem, which in hindsight was unlikely, and then beat Dos Santos, if he really would have retired then as champion, and then gone to WWE for a match or matches as the rightful champion when his UFC contract expired, it would have been one of Vince McMahon’s all-time greatest coups.
But how much he would have meant as UFC champion, or with the loss of the title but only one loss since the first Mir fight, as compared to no longer being in UFC and having been knocked out twice? My feeling is that the longer the time frame is between now and his debut, the less his UFC losses would mean as far as a negative to marketability. In addition, the longer he’s out of the public eye, the fresher he is, although there comes a point when it’s too many years where that isn’t the case anymore.
The next question is Lesnar’s legacy. Most have been positive about it. The reality is he was an amazing athlete who won the title despite inexperience and a long layoff from competitive sports, succeeding based on athletic ability and a lifetime of wrestling to beat some solid people at their own game.
Others, whether blinded by their hate for Lesnar, pro wrestling, or UFC, have used this loss to say he was never any good, and discredit him. Some have written he was the worst UFC heavyweight champion in history, which is beyond laughable. If you line up every UFC champion in history, when they were champion vs. what short window of prime Lesnar had, and Lesnar beats most of them almost every time. He’d pound Shamrock, Severn, Coleman, Randleman, Smith, Rodriguez, Sylvia and Mir into the mat when all of them were champions. He’d struggle with Couture before beating him the majority of the time if not almost every time. He’d beat the Josh Barnett when Barnett was champion, although I’m not sure what would happen if he fought today’s Barnett. He’d lose most of the time to Cain Velasquez, because that’s a bad style match for him. He may not beat Junior Dos Santos either, and as the sport evolves, he wouldn’t beat the majority of the champions of the future. He was a legitimate champion for his time, even though he had major holes in his game, and brought a ton of new fans to the sport, and drew more than anyone in history.
Lesnar’s legacy? There have been many NCAA champions who went on to become world champions in pro wrestling, and several who went on to be UFC champions. Lesnar is the only one who has done all three. And he likely will be the only one. He is one of only three people, along with Mike Tyson and Manny Pacquiao, who have drawn two 1 million buys shows in the same calendar year. Came in with no experience. Won the title. Drew big. Got badly ill. Made lots of money. Lost the title. Couldn’t work his way back to top contention. And got out.
Whether those fans will stay when he’s gone, my gut says some will and most won’t. But that’s the cycle of life in promoting individual sports based on super drawing cards. If it didn’t happen this year, it would have happened next year. Lesnar was not the guy who was going to stay around like Tito Ortiz or Chuck Liddell to lose most of his fights unless he needed the money.
With the change in location and the frequent drug tests, it was something of a surprise that Overeem weighed in at 263 pounds, only three pounds less than Lesnar, although the difference in the cage was probably closer to 15 pounds.
With the win, Overeem vs. Dos Santos now becomes the next in the line of biggest heavyweight title fights, if not in terms of money, in terms of ability, perhaps in history. Overeem asked for some time off, and Dana White said he’s hoping for that fight in the summer.
The other story of UFC 141 was that Jon Fitch and Donald Cerrone were seemingly one win away from at least being considered for title contention. Had Fitch beaten Johny Hendricks, while it was far from a lock, he’d have been a logical choice to face the Carlos Condit vs. Nick Diaz winner. Had Cerrone beaten Nate Diaz, he’d have been the odds-on favorite to face the Frankie Edgar vs. Ben Henderson winner. But they both lost.
Fitch was knocked out in 12 seconds by Hendricks, who made himself a star in one night. In a sport where anyone can lose, and a 12 second loss is often a fluke in many ways, Fitch was not the type of fighter who could afford a loss. He was always difficult to book. He’s won too often and too highly paid to not put on the PPV. But he risks killing shows in their tracks. He’s hard to book because most top fighters want to avoid fighting him. He’s hard to beat, and hard to get over on, although Hendricks jumped at the opportunity when offered. Now it’s even tougher, because he’s a big enough name he should be fighting top guys, but he’s not the guy you want to put in with a rising contender.
Cerrone won the award for worst mental game in history while Nate Diaz set a record for standing punches landed in a UFC fight in history, landing 260 total strikes and 238 significant strikes in a three round fight. Diaz outboxed Cerrone, kept the fight in a boxing range and not a kickboxing range. Cerrone was able to use his feet to sweep Diaz to the ground on a number of occasions. Since he was getting hammered standing and his corner was telling him to take him down, it made no sense that every time Cerrone got Diaz off his feet, he walked away instead of going to the ground and trying to punch him there. He would trip Diaz to his back, let him back up, so Diaz could continue to beat him up standing. Rinse and repeat. The match was tremendous. Not quite match of the year level but not far behind. With the best fight bonus, that made seven in the career of Cerrone, breaking the all-time record he shared with Chris Lytle. It was five for the career of Diaz.
In a speech to fighters before the show started, White praised Cerrone, noting that if guys want title shots, they should go out and finish fights, perhaps in reference to Fitch who had won a string of decisions. So after the big speech about finishing, the first six fights on the show all went to a decision.
The rare Friday night show at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas drew 12,158 fans and $3.1 million.
Maklershed
Member
parrotbeak
Member
I peeked in just for a second and was worth it to find out who Stacy Keibler was.
I'm reading this post but it seems to get longer as I read. (Did you keep adding to it?)
Remember that Lesnar was supposed to fight Coleman for his first fight? So glad for the sake of Coleman's young daughters that that didn't happen.
Alright, Fantasy MMA is a go for 2012! All of our picks from last year have been cleared, so we're starting off with a clean slate. I just joined the MMA-GAF pool, and I'm looking forward to holding that top spot on the leaderboard for most of the year 
I'll admit, I don't know any of these guys outside of Keith Jardine. Going in blind, terribad picks incoming.Alright, Fantasy MMA is a go for 2012! All of our picks from last year have been cleared, so we're starting off with a clean slate. I just joined the MMA-GAF pool, and I'm looking forward to holding that top spot on the leaderboard for most of the year
Maklershed
Member
Alright, Fantasy MMA is a go for 2012! All of our picks from last year have been cleared, so we're starting off with a clean slate. I just joined the MMA-GAF pool, and I'm looking forward to holding that top spot on the leaderboard for most of the year
Cool thanks for the reminder. Is there a private pool or are we all joining that public GAF pool?
TheNatural
My Member!
You're probably better off this way. I know who the main card guys are, but I also know how bad they can be (*cough* Robbie Lawler), that I may be just better off going in blind and picking guys with the cooler names. Adlan Amagov? Don't know who the fuck you are, but you can probably beat Lawler.
pretty sure pool name is MMA GAF, pw neogaf
Maklershed
Member
With regard to the undercards and smaller events, it's your picks on those lower-rung fights that will make all the difference. Click on the fighter names and compare their stats. Look at their Win/Loss ratio, how they tend to finish fights, how long their fights usually last... etc. All of the picks are weighed equally (except ones you boost), so do the research if you care about climbing those leaderboards.
It's really a good excuse to learn more about up-and-coming fighters, and the data fiend within me enjoys comparing fighters' stats and tables.
Also, I got out of the public pool and joined the private MMA GAF one. I suggest everyone else do the same if they haven't already.
parrotbeak
Member
Based only on Amagov's Challengers 20 fight, I'm looking forward to that one. He just came out swinging.
Hopefully one of the changes to this pool will be to compete both cumulatively and by event. It's going to suck if people can't compete if they don't play every event.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
Kinda meh that you have to pick all the Strikeforce stuff as well, dont pay enough attention to that.
parrotbeak
Member
I'm in both. You can switch the view back and forth in the drop down menu.
A lot of these guys' fights are online if you are really interested in trying to make an educated guess, but it's hard to tell because they are fighting other low level guys and now they're in a bigger show.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I always tried to avoid bad MMA, but every once in a while Spike would air those old "Best of Pride" reruns late and night when there's really nothing else on.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
I use mmaplayground to put faces to names for UFC undercards and stuff then check their records on sherdog or whatever to see how they win/lose etc.
Bit rough but sometimes it works out well. The percentage thing works ok for wild guesses in this though.
Bit rough but sometimes it works out well. The percentage thing works ok for wild guesses in this though.
I thought it was a solid effort.
AwesomeSauce
MagsMoonshine
Going to make my picks later. Need to do some research on some of the undercard dudes.
Troll attempts are falling faster than jon fitch's ranking at 170#.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Maybe I just don't have it anymore. I'm having my "Shogun gets tapped by Forrest" moment.
parrotbeak
Member
These things are cyclical. Maybe be a face for a while.
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