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MMA |OT2| - Thread of Athletes, Fighters, Personalities, and Sports Entertainment

Heel

Member
Allow me to play devil's advocate.

When you factor in all expenses Zuffa incurs (flying out their team, hotel rooms, insurance coverage, etc.), do guys getting paid 6k/6k even draw enough business to cover their costs? Who outside of their friends and family are buying tickets or PPVs to see these guys?

Up until this point guys getting paid 6k/6k are fighting on Facebook, not pay-per-view. Not to mention these guys know they're getting a huge opportunity and are grateful to get a crack at the big show. No one is forcing them to sign the contract.

Let's not forget sponsorship money, which has to be way better in the UFC than anywhere else, even if Zuffa is taking a cut.

I'm all for guys getting paid more, but it's not like their alternatives are paradise. Guys are fighting on a tarp at the county fairgrounds for a lot less than 6k/6k.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
terrible defense right there

FNF usually pays a license fee of 20k to the promoter to air there fights and it is hardly comparable and brings in nowhere near the revenue of a ufc ppv event.ESPN doesn't even pay the fighters. Im sure he knows that though. they even talk about the low pay that clubfighters make in the ESPN piece.Also they have the option of fighting anywhere else that isn't possible with the UFC.

Allow me to play devil's advocate.

When you factor in all expenses Zuffa incurs (flying out their team, hotel rooms, insurance coverage, etc.), do guys getting paid 6k/6k even draw enough business to cover their costs? Who outside of their friends and family are buying tickets or PPVs to see these guys?

Up until this point guys getting paid 6k/6k are fighting on Facebook, not pay-per-view. Not to mention these guys know they're getting a huge opportunity and are grateful to get a crack at the big show. No one is forcing them to sign the contract.

Let's not forget sponsorship money, which has to be way better in the UFC than anywhere else, even if Zuffa is taking a cut.

I'm all for guys getting paid more, but it's not like their alternatives are paradise. Guys are fighting on a tarp at the county fairgrounds for a lot less than 6k/6k.

First off, forget even the ESPN reference Milo. What are undercard guys on major boxing cards making? Hell even the ones on PPV itself usually are low card fighters not making a lot, unless it's a Golden Boy PPV. Much less, the prelim of the undercard that isn't even broadcast on the PPV. A few hundred bucks tops, guaranteed.

Second, we don't know shit about Zuffa's finances. We do know they're under a shitload of debt though, that's been proven. It took them forever to make bank with this thing and they took on a crapload of debt - supposedly they have $400 mil in debt or so. Now one of their top PPV draws retired and two others are injured. You never know where this stuff could go. I'm all up for discussing fighters pay, but no one really knows anything relative to what Zuffa actually makes and what they're actually worth.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)

Interviewing 3 ex champions really doesn't have anything to do with the situation at hand.

also this
http://www.badlefthook.com/2012/1/1...lorenzo-fertitta-argues-espn-underpays-boxing

I know what Fertitta is trying to do here, but unfortunately, the argument falls short on, well, just about every level.

First of all, ESPN is not a fight promoter.
This is an enormous difference. For a UFC card on FX, the UFC is pretty much in control of everything. ESPN just airs fights. They have the right to turn down a proposed fight, but that's about it. Everything is really up to the promoters of the actual fight card.

They are a network that broadcasts a low-budget boxing series for nine months out of the year. To compare Friday Night Fights to a UFC show on cable is an attempt at trickery at best. It's just not the same thing.

The budget for FNF is small: $100,000 per show. This is not a big-time showcase for top fighters. It is, more or less, somewhere for prospects and mid-tier veterans to fight. At its best, like last season, Friday Night Fights turns into another version of ShoBox: The New Generation, which airs frequently on Showtime -- with a $50,000 budget per show, often used to great effect over three strong fights.

Fertitta claims, and I'm sure he's telling the truth, that someone fought on Friday Night Fights in a four-round bout for $275. What Fertitta doesn't reveal -- or perhaps does not actually know -- is that anyone in a four-round fight that winds up on the broadcast, on TV, was positioned in a swing fight that was going to air only if there was time remaining in the two-hour time slot. There are no four-round fights purposely scheduled to air on ESPN's series. A four-round fight is the lowest level of professional boxing, and frankly to call the majority of four-round bouts "professional boxing" is kind of a stretch; the fighters don't often resemble what we're used to seeing on TV, even from the middle-of-the-pack guys that get on ESPN or HBO or Showtime. It's kind of like comparing high school football to the NFL most of the time.

The UFC line is that everyone on their roster is there because they're among the best in the world. Obviously no one is being paid $275 to fight on a UFC card, but Friday Night Fights is not known to be, nor is it advertised as being, a showcase for the world's best boxers.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
Interviewing 3 ex champions really doesn't have anything to do with the situation at hand.

also this
http://www.badlefthook.com/2012/1/1...lorenzo-fertitta-argues-espn-underpays-boxing

And like I said, forget ESPN. What are guys on the non televised fights of Top Rank PPV cards getting paid? It's no more than a few hundred dollars just like ESPN. Hell many guys on the undercards of PPV themselves don't get paid what untelevised Facebook prelim fighters get paid.
 
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/3/15/2053137/examining-pay-structure-in-boxing-and-mma

Though one thing to consider is that guys on UFC prelims aren't just fighting on the card. Their sponsors are required to pay the UFC and the UFC also has use of their name, likeness, etc... for merchandising (and all the rights for life I believe?). They also tend to re-air on the PPV and/or TV broadcasts. So a bit different from just appearing on a boxing under-card solely as filler bouts in the arena. The UFC fighters are 'contributing' a bit more. There are various other reasons it isn't a direct comparison.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/3/15/2053137/examining-pay-structure-in-boxing-and-mma

Though one thing to consider is that guys on UFC prelims aren't just fighting on the card. Their sponsors are required to pay the UFC and the UFC also has use of their name, likeness, etc... for merchandising (and all the rights for life I believe?). They also tend to re-air on the PPV and/or TV broadcasts. So a bit different from just appearing on a boxing under-card solely as filler bouts in the arena. The UFC fighters are 'contributing' a bit more. There are various other reasons it isn't a direct comparison.

And? They have use of the fights so they can put them on a DVD for the PPV. That's basically it. No one is making a "Best of Facebook Fights" Spike special, or "I watched Facebook fights with my online friends" T-Shirt. Lets be real here, it's not like they're missing out on anything.
 
Looks like Florian is the official second announcer for the Fox 'B' team .. Ankit being the main announcer. Florian is a good choice, I always liked him on the WEC broadcasts. They only person who I thought was better was Mir, who they say may show up in broadcasts if Florian is busy.
 

Heel

Member
Sean McCorkle chimes in on the fighter pay debate on The Underground:

Sean McCorkle said:
I keep hearing so many things back and forth on the issue I thought I'd give the UG the real story on UFC pay. At least as it pertains to me.

During my 3 fight stint with the UFC the paid me exactly 150% what they were contractually obligated to pay me. That is without a KO/Sub/Fight of the night bonus of any kind. That is even though I lost 2 of my 3 fights.

I got a discretionary bonus after all 3 of my fights, even an amount equal to my what would have been my win bonus after my embarrassing performance against Stephan Struve. I was told that was given to me based strictly on the effort I put in to promoting the fight, and not because of how I performed.

I am currently unaware of any pro sports franchise that pays any player more money than they are obligated to do so.

Sponsorship wise during those 3 fights I made an average each fight of about 75% of what I was contracted to be paid by the UFC. So if my purse for fighting was $10,000 I made approximately $7,500 in sponsors on average.

Take an average fighter's reported pay for a televised fight, and double it, and you'll have a rough number of the amount he made on that fight. So if a guy is reported at $12,000 to show, and $12,000 to win, chances are he'll make around $50,000 by the time it's all said and done for that fight.

As far as the main event fighters and big stars like Brock, GSP, Anderson Silva, who share in the PPV revenue, the reported numbers are not even in the ballpark. GSP might be reported to make $250,000 when he in fact made $3-$4 million.

To give you some more perspective on how fighting in the UFC compares to other organizations, this is how my career pay breaks down ranked dollar wise.

1. Stefan Struve
2. Mark Hunt
3. My other 12 non UFC fights all combined
4. Christian Morecraft

So I made more in each of 2 of my 3 UFC fights than I did in all of my 12 non UFC fights combined. I made barely less against Christian Morecraft than I did in the other 12 combined.

I've owned my own business in the past and had over 130 employees at one point, so I've been on both sides of the coin. This is how I see it. The Fertittas risked millions of dollars of their own money on a sport that nobody would touch, and have turned it into a billion dollar business. Those who take the risk, deserve the reward no matter how astronomical it may become.

As an employee, you are only worth as much as someone is willing to pay you. If guys are unhappy in the UFC and someone is offering them more money, then by all means they should jump all over the opportunity. Affliction paid Tim Sylvia $800,000 to fight Fedor, when his contract at the time with the UFC was around $100k to show, and $100k to win. Who could blame him for taking the Affliction offer? I know that's what I would have done. Andrei Arlovski got $600,000 to fight Ben Rothwell so he left the UFC when he also was making approximately $100k/$100k.

Now I realize I'm going to get hit with "you're just kissing the UFC's ass because you want back in", and that's fine. Because if I said negative things about them, it'd be "you're just mad that they cut you, so you're trying to settle the score." I lose either way, so I might as well be honest.

After I was released from the UFC they have since began providing health insurance for their contracted fighters for injuries incurred during training, as well as twitter bonuses, so the money just keeps getting better.

On the issue of a fighter union, I've never really seen that as a positive thing. Unions are, it seems, always corrupt and normally, like everything else in life, are set up and ran for the benefit of a very few. Unions might mean higher fighter pay, but that in turn will result in higher PPV, merchandise, and ticket prices for the fans. Unions also mean the possibility of work stoppages, which are disastrous for any sport.

Part of the solution to the entire issue would be fighters fighting more often. I realize that time is needed between fights for a lot of the headlining guys in order to market and promote the fight, but under card and lower level guys could fight 5-6 times a year easily barring major injury. The beatings you take in the gym on a weekly basis are often times as bad or worse than what you endure during a fight. NFL players play once a week every week for 4-6 months straight. NBA players play 3x a week for 6 months straight.

As the sport continues to grow, the fighter pay will as well. Until the UFC has a complete monopoly on the industry and there literally is no other option, like the NFL has on football, then the discussion of fighter pay is irrelevant. If guys are worth more than they are being paid, then they should go out and get it. I always told that to my employees, and I never begrudged even one of them for taking a better job somewhere else. That's life.

THE END BITCHES
 

smurfx

get some go again
now that the ufc is offering free health care to its fighters you have to factor that in with fighter pay. i believe the ufc will keep upping fighter pay if they keep growing.
 

agrajag

Banned
now that the ufc is offering free health care to its fighters you have to factor that in with fighter pay. i believe the ufc will keep upping fighter pay if they keep growing.


there really is no excuse for not fighting as often as possible. On the other hand, is UFC big enough to be able to give all these guys as many fights as they want?
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
there really is no excuse for not fighting as often as possible. On the other hand, is UFC big enough to be able to give all these guys as many fights as they want?

When you look at the numbers of some of these cards you have to think no. But then again part of the onus is also on UFC to refocus efforts on how to generate interest outside of the big names/former pro wrestlers. I honestly don't know that I trust them at all when they are putting shit like Davis/Rashad as part of their big push into the mainstream.
 

agrajag

Banned
When you look at the numbers of some of these cards you have to think no. But then again part of the onus is also on UFC to refocus efforts on how to generate interest outside of the big names/former pro wrestlers. I honestly don't know that I trust them at all when they are putting shit like Davis/Rashad as part of their big push into the mainstream.

They need to make a bigger push in Brazil, imo. Maybe that could become their primary market instead of US? Lots of exciting fighters coming out of there. Paul Harris and Barboza could have potential to be stars imo.
 

Heel

Member
there really is no excuse for not fighting as often as possible. On the other hand, is UFC big enough to be able to give all these guys as many fights as they want?

Lyle Beerbohm Says He’s Chopping Wood To Survive, Anxiously Awaiting A Call To Fight

I remember it being a huge problem for guys to get fights lined up in Strikeforce a while back. Too many fighters and not enough events. This was pre-Zuffa though, so not sure if it's still common.

UFC put up Lorenzo's unedited ESPN interview, and he said on average their fighters are getting less than 2 fights a year (1-point-something, I forget the exact number he gave...maybe it was 2-point-something?).

In any case, I doubt the guys on the bottom are getting as many fights as they'd like.
 

agrajag

Banned
Lyle Beerbohm Says He’s Chopping Wood To Survive, Anxiously Awaiting A Call To Fight

I remember it being a huge problem for guys to get fights lined up in Strikeforce a while back. Too many fighters and not enough events. This was pre-Zuffa though, so not sure if it's still common.

UFC put up Lorenzo's unedited ESPN interview, and he said on average their fighters are getting less than 2 fights a year (1-point-something, I forget the exact number he gave).

I doubt the guys on the bottom are getting as many fights as they'd like.


I saw a post on Sherdog that made a pretty good point in regards to that. The "average" includes guys that are cut after one fight, guys who are sidelined with injuries, etc.
 

Heel

Member
I saw a post on Sherdog that made a pretty good point in regards to that. The "average" includes guys that are cut after one fight, guys who are sidelined with injuries, etc.

Ahhh so maybe it was 1-point-something then. I remember it striking me as lower than I thought, so that makes sense.
 

agrajag

Banned
Ahhh so maybe it was 1-point-something then. I remember it striking me as lower than I thought, so that makes sense.


1.6 fights a year is what Lorenzo said.


What disturbs me more than the fighter pay thing is their contract practices. They can let a fighter go any time they want, but the fighter is obligated to fight for them until the contract is over, and if they're a champ then there's the champion's clause too. I say they should keep the bad fighters as well. You always need some cans to beat up to pad other fighters' records and to feed to young up and coming fighters. The more fighters on the roaster the better imo, it makes the couple of guys at the top look even more impressive.
 

dream

Member
Not to interrupt your discussion about fighter payouts and what's fair but I HAVE BREAKING NEWS

Next month's UFC on FUEL TV 2 event has a new addition to the lineup.

UFC officials today announced that lightweight newcomers Justin Salas and Anton Kuivanen will meet at the Feb. 15 event.

Scrappin for 12k baby!
 

Heel

Member
1.6 fights a year is what Lorenzo said.


What disturbs me more than the fighter pay thing is their contract practices. They can let a fighter go any time they want, but the fighter is obligated to fight for them until the contract is over, and if they're a champ then there's the champion's clause too. I say they should keep the bad fighters as well. You always need some cans to beat up to pad other fighters' records and to feed to young up and coming fighters. The more fighters on the roaster the better imo, it makes the couple of guys at the top look even more impressive.

I think skill parody has definitely made for some boring UFC cards. That and guys fighting for the safe win. The UFC has said "if you're exciting you're not getting cut", but there have been very few exceptions to the "3 strikes and you're out" rule. There aren't a lot of guys on losing skids who take unnecessary risks. I'd say they need to further incentivise KOs/subs etc., but looks like they're probably already doing that behind closed doors.

I think with a little creative booking they're still able to put together squash matches without keeping complete cans on the roster. Palhares vs. Massenzio being a recent example.

Joe Silva has a very tough job booking a promotion built on "the best fighting the best" while trying to insure the fights are exciting. Must be one hell of a balancing act.
 

thefro

Member
They need to make a bigger push in Brazil, imo. Maybe that could become their primary market instead of US? Lots of exciting fighters coming out of there. Paul Harris and Barboza could have potential to be stars imo.

They have TUF Brazil on one of the major broadcast networks down there this year.

They definitely have plans to expand and run more international cards.

I wish there was some kind of record-based ladder system implemented in the UFC instead of their current match making.

That'd lead to worse fights... the way they do it is fine.
 
I like Beerbohm, he has a great story.
But I also read that he came off as being a great big dick during the last few SF events so I suspect his fighting days may be over, certainly in the upper echelon of organizations.
I forget why but I was rooting against him when he fought Aoki, and that's strange cuz I don't like Aoki. And the recovering drug addict thing is a good angle.
 

MjFrancis

Member
I've seen the Beerbohm/Aoki fight but that's all I know of the guy. I know that there are some amateur MMA fights around Eastern Washington but then we get into the whole fighter pay thing again and there's no reason for Beerbohm to get hurt for a few hundred dollars when he can chop wood and earn the same pay.

It's a Strikeforce/UFC check or nothing in his position, and I don't blame him. Maybe they could give him a shot on an undercard after this story for a few thousand. That's probably all he's hoping for.
 

pr0cs

Member
I forget why but I was rooting against him when he fought Aoki, and that's strange cuz I don't like Aoki. And the recovering drug addict thing is a good angle.

I don't have a link but there was some discussion on BE on how Beerbohm was being a dink to the people working the SF event and the other fighters. Like he was somehow above everyone else and deserved special attention.

I found it surprising considering where he came from but that was the story.
 

agrajag

Banned
Well Strikeforce is notorious for letting their fighters sit out and collect dust. Even though Zuffa bought them out, not much has changed there.
 

agrajag

Banned
Not until Jardine tests positive too.

I don't think that's necessary.

Keith-Jardine-face.jpg
 

Heel

Member
Some interesting Bad MMA news coming out of a T. Jay Thompson interview today:

-ProElite is partnering with DREAM. Fighter exchange, starting with Mizuno this weekend.

-You could see a DREAM card in the U.S. and a ProElite card in Japan by the end of the year.

-ProElite is talking to the management of Rumble Johnson and Nate Marquardt.

-Focus on "fun fights" in the wake of ProElite 2.

-Looking to run an event every 6 weeks in the second half of 2012.

-"Crazy PRIDE Lady" Lenne Hart will be ring announcer for ProElite this weekend.

Bad MMA never die.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
Good, so when they both go out of business this year, two go down with one stone.

Some interesting Bad MMA news coming out of a T. Jay Thompson interview today:

-ProElite is partnering with DREAM. Fighter exchange, starting with Mizuno this weekend.

-You could see a DREAM card in the U.S. and a ProElite card in Japan by the end of the year.

-ProElite is talking to the management of Rumble Johnson and Nate Marquardt.

-Focus on "fun fights" in the wake of ProElite 2.

-Looking to run an event every 6 weeks in the second half of 2012.

-"Crazy PRIDE Lady" Lenne Hart will be ring announcer for ProElite this weekend.

Bad MMA never die.
 

Balehead

Member
King Mo's manager just texted Ariel on MMA hour that he wanted to talk about the situation but Ariel no longer wanted to take him on the show. Would have been nice to hear about that thing this quickly. Guess it makes sense since today's show was kind of shaky already.
 
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