-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
MMA |OT2| - Thread of Athletes, Fighters, Personalities, and Sports Entertainment
- Thread starter yacobod
- Start date
Shogun vs. Hendo is the quintessential MMA fight.
Two very different styles clashing and neither holding anything back, and being extremely competitive on both the feet and the mat. A lot of different aspects of striking were used, both punches and kicks. Great offensive grappling, including transitions, sweeps and escapes. Both guys showed amazing heart.
This is the benchmark.
With that being said, great defense does have its place in MMA. I feel like some fans only want to see bad kickboxing matches when there's so much more that makes this sport great.
parrotbeak
Member
I'd agree with that, although I have also heard that some fighters intentionally fall into a sparring-like rhythm to try to lull the other fighter into relaxing a bit, and then going for something unexpected. At the UFC level those kinds of strategies are necessary to win. But when it doesn't work the fight can look terrible.
Hendo Shogun was very back and forth, and even though they were gassed, they never stopped trying to win. Fuck I want to watch it again now.
TheNatural
My Member!
If guys actually try to win a fight, either through strategy, heart, brute force or whatever. That's a good fight to me.
What I can't stand most of the time is guys going for cage control, lay n pray, or trying to Fitch guys with meaningless grapple fucking to make for a boring fight. Not only that, but guys wear themselves out defending or trying to those kind of control methods, so the rest of the fight tends to be very weak half hearted standup.
Don't gas yourself out on stupid shit, or be a tentative fighter that only tries for that one shot waiting for the opponent to do something, and it can usually be a good fight. I liked the fight last night, I like watching Frankie Edgar fight in the same style, you don't have to go in and be a banger to be entertaining - and you don't have to be a strategist and do absolutely nothing waiting the whole fight out for a mythical opportunity either.
What I can't stand most of the time is guys going for cage control, lay n pray, or trying to Fitch guys with meaningless grapple fucking to make for a boring fight. Not only that, but guys wear themselves out defending or trying to those kind of control methods, so the rest of the fight tends to be very weak half hearted standup.
Don't gas yourself out on stupid shit, or be a tentative fighter that only tries for that one shot waiting for the opponent to do something, and it can usually be a good fight. I liked the fight last night, I like watching Frankie Edgar fight in the same style, you don't have to go in and be a banger to be entertaining - and you don't have to be a strategist and do absolutely nothing waiting the whole fight out for a mythical opportunity either.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
Expectations are everything. For the first time, I had to pull a GSP and apologize to my casual mma friends, who I dragged through 4 bars in order to watch the card, who were completely and utterly disappointed by it. As was I. I was expecting the welterweight Hendo-Shogun. FOTY. Why shouldn't I? Two guys with close to 50 finishes and around 5 decision wins between them in their career. Instead I got Condit pulling a bad Machida impression (at least Machida looks to finish, Condit didn't last night).
I make no bones about it, I'm Diaz fan. I already said many times I wouldn't be upset if Condit won because at least he's exciting too. But last night was basically everything I hate about boxing and the reason why I stopped watching that sport and it seeped into MMA. A high-profile main event (for me at least) that ends up turning into a point-fest with a thoroughly unsatisfying ending (i.e. many people thinking Diaz was robbed). I was/am so disappointed don't think I'll ever order or go out to watch another card with welterweights headlining ever again.
Next week's card with Sanchez vs Ellenberger I expect one wrestler trying to outwrestle another or for the wrestling to cancel out and it turns into a bad kickboxing match. But I'm ok with that, a finish would be a neat bonus. My expectations are low. The "bad on paper but they turn out great" UFC cards are due to very low expectations people have for them and pleased when anything happens.
I make no bones about it, I'm Diaz fan. I already said many times I wouldn't be upset if Condit won because at least he's exciting too. But last night was basically everything I hate about boxing and the reason why I stopped watching that sport and it seeped into MMA. A high-profile main event (for me at least) that ends up turning into a point-fest with a thoroughly unsatisfying ending (i.e. many people thinking Diaz was robbed). I was/am so disappointed don't think I'll ever order or go out to watch another card with welterweights headlining ever again.
Next week's card with Sanchez vs Ellenberger I expect one wrestler trying to outwrestle another or for the wrestling to cancel out and it turns into a bad kickboxing match. But I'm ok with that, a finish would be a neat bonus. My expectations are low. The "bad on paper but they turn out great" UFC cards are due to very low expectations people have for them and pleased when anything happens.
TheNatural
My Member!
Total shocker there. Sorry you didn't think it was worth watching or your friends didn't, but maybe the sport isn't for them or you if all you expect is a drag out brawl fest with no strategy. It's like any other sport, sometimes you'll get high scoring shootouts, some homerun fests in baseball. Sometimes you'll get low scoring pitchers duels. Both are fun for me to watch in different ways.
I don't expect casual fans to like it, but in my opinion, they can fuck off. Buyrates are going down because the casual fans are abandoning ship, and MMA can do better. Classy era of MMA has arrived, no more Lesnar sideshow or Diaz Stockton trailer trash shit talking.
parrotbeak
Member
I thought Condit was trying to finish. I remember a lot of head kicks and big spinning elbows and fists that just missed Diaz' head. Diaz is just tough and too evenly matched for Condit to finish. I expect him to finish most other wws.
TheNatural
My Member!
Diaz is a pussy because he kept ducking his spinning back fists and head kicks. That fucking wuss! He should have just stood there instead of taking the pussy way out and not getting hit!
Great points. Definitely agree with the appeal of not knowing what will happen next. A one sided fight can only be entertaining for a brief time.
Agreed 100%. If a fight ends with a flashy finish the rest of the bout is forgotten.
All the points are describing the Forrest/Bonnar fight that pyt MMA on the map for a lot of people. A fight that was driven by will and a love for the sport.
Good insight as well. I love seeing a great fight, and that could play out numerous ways in mma.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
Hey I can appreciate strategy. I don't expect or want for that matter every fight to be STANDBANG. Controversial decision aside, Shogun vs Machida is one of my favorite MMA fights ever because the striking was of such high level that the fight was tense as fuck because of two masters going at it, you could feel that one mistake would be crucial. Once Shogun's strategy of using a high guard to defend Machida's counter punches and throwing mucho leg kicks to slow him down, then how would Machida adjust became the narrative. I love that fight, it was the MMA equivalent of when the Colts and Ravens play and Ray Lewis and Peyton Manning are making audible line calls while the stadium is dead silent, both trying to outstrategize the other.
Would you say Hendo vs Shogun was a brawl fest with no strategy? To me it was two legends showcasing every exciting aspect of mma during both striking and grappling, and displaying an unbelievable amount of resilience and heart to recover from brutal shots they delivered to eachother that have felled many lesser fighters and willing their exhausted bodies to try finish eachother.
TheNatural
My Member!
I wouldn't say that, it just seems you were more influenced by wanting a show to be put on for your casual MMA friends rather than there being anything particularly wrong with the fight itself. That's fine, but that doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the fight.
Diaz tried to move and flurry forward, sometimes landing. Condit effectively counter punched and displayed a big variety of strikes from leg kicks, to body kicks, to head kicks, to spinning back fists and combos. None of them knocked Diaz out, neither guy was in the danger zone by the shots that landed.
If whatever did land did real damage and ended in a KO I think you would be saying something completely different even if the fight went the same exact way.
Personally, if you gotta sell to someone to come watch MMA cause someone is going to get KTFO, I don't think those people are worth watching with to hear the inevitable bitching that will come with it even with a good fight.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
I was never selling anybody on KO's. I was selling a FOTY-candidate worth watching since both guys are good strikers, good at bjj, have iron chins, have good cardio, constantly move forward looking for openings to finish their opponents, and during their win streaks showed remarkable recover ability from disadvantageous positions. That was based on my personal expectation of the fight from what I know of these two fighters. Last night's was not a FOTY candidate, period. Thus the fight was a complete disappointment for me and my friends.
edit: also there is a lot of alcohol flowing as well which tends to exacerbate emotion.
edit: also there is a lot of alcohol flowing as well which tends to exacerbate emotion.
parrotbeak
Member
Not FOTY but I thought it was the best fight on the card and nice way to end the ppv.
I understand that going in with FOTY expectations would disappoint, but just as a ppv main event, it met my expectations.
How the other fights go also factors in a lot on what people say after a fight or whole ppv. Great prelims and mid-card fights can be forgotten if the main event sucks. A great fight that goes the distance might not seem great if there were boring fights before it.
I remember it as getting a lot more competitive on the feet in the later rounds. Who knows, I was blinded by awesomeness by that point.
I think this is a great fight to find out what kind of fan someone is. Some see a technical battle, others think it's boring and boo. This goes back to my "great defense does have its place in MMA" statement from earlier. This is the anti-Shogun/Hendo fight.
I've gotta say, Machida is a great technical fighter and gets way too much flack for his elusiveness. He brings a whole new angle to the sport. The only gripe I have with him is the fair-weather Street Fighter fanbase he's cultivated, haha. That's not his fault obviously.
Another thing that I don't see talked about a lot is Machida's parrying. This is what sets him apart as one of the best technical strikers in MMA. He deserves his props.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
Preaching to the choir Heel, he's one of my favorite fighters. I'd hope that with all the defending of Condit's performance last night that was going on at the 143 thread that people would appreciate what Machida does. Especially since so many regs from this very thread shit on him all the time. All fighters have horrible fans in thier fanbases.
BigJonsson
Member
The best fights go back and forth, those fights are pretty rare though
They should make something like Diaz vs Kos next, provided that Nick didn't quit. Winner fights Conduit for his belt. If Diaz took nothing but baby leg kicks he should be good to go pretty soon, and Dana just said Kos likes to take fights and this is definitely a step up for him while the Diaz hype is still alive.
A rematch would be stupid, if it was any other fighter than a Diaz bro no one would give a shit that he got beat. And there's plenty of time if GSP is fighting in November or so.
A rematch would be stupid, if it was any other fighter than a Diaz bro no one would give a shit that he got beat. And there's plenty of time if GSP is fighting in November or so.
Maklershed
Member
For me Ben Hendo vs Guida is the epitome of a good fight. Two guys with a lot of heart, a lot of talent, a desire to finish (and not out score), great energy, and evenly matched. And not only that but their attacks and strategies were diverse and kept changing. I think Barao and Jorgensen had all the same attributes except my final point - they kept jabbing ineffectively at each other and got into the rhythm of "I jab, now you jab, now I jab, now you jab".
Also, I think fights can be exciting if one guy is particularly great at something and you're just waiting for him to pull the trigger - ie Paul Harris. Even if the fight itself isn't the greatest of all time I always get a kick out of seeing someone like him latch on to his opponents leg and just do what he does best. It's kind of like watching a fly stuck in a venus fly trap.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Conduit already said that he wants to wait for GSP.
All I can find is his manager saying he won't wait if he wins against Diaz, posted Feb 4th. And then ofc the post fight "I don't know I'll ask my management."
http://mmajunkie.com/news/27293/man...los-condit-unlikely-to-wait-for-champ-gsp.mma
But that doesn't really matter to me as a rematch would be stupid anyways.
He said it in the post fight interview with Helwani, that he would "probably wait" but needed to talk to managers etc...
This is what I've always loved about the lighter weight classes in general, they're just more prone to this sort of action. Much more like to get 2 active fighters giving plenty of heart for the full fight.
The specialty aspect can also backfire... ie thinking is all about a devestating right hook, only to see the fight go by and have it be a nonfactor.
Also, waiting for fights is dumb. You're the champ now Condit, if you can't beat everyone else you're not going to beat GSP. It'll be jinxed and he'll get hurt training while waiting if he does that.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Like Heel already mentioned, the Shogun Rua and Dan Henderson fight was my personal fight of the year for 2011 and it had everything I like about MMA in it including the kitchen sink. My fight of the year runner up was Frank Edgar vs Gray Maynard III for reference.
So ShaneB you might ask, "yacobod if you had to describe what you like about mixed martial arts in one word, what would it be?"
VIOLENCE
MMA for me is the closest thing we have to traveling back to antiquity, sitting in the Roman Colliseum, and watching 2 people try to kill each other. I want to see 2 people fight, lay everything they have on the line, and I want to see the best man win.
Specific moments I've enjoyed:
-JBJ choking out and then dropping the unconscious and lifeless husk of Machida's body on the octagon floor in their fight.
-Lyoto Machida unleashing a violent combination on Rashad Evans, making his eyes roll back into his head, and seeing his legs bend in unnatural ways.
-Watching fighters try to grapple with referees after they've been KO or TKO and not knowing where they are.
-MMA Legend Frank Mir breaking Big Nog's arm, making him the first person to KO and submit Big Nog.
-I love watching fighters battle through adversity to come back and put on a great fight. Obviously the Shogun/Hendo meets this criteria in spades, as does the Frankie Edgar fights with Maynard.
I dislike bad striking as much as I dislike boring lay n pray tactics. Watching fights like Damian Maia versus Chris Weidman is just as bad as watching Jon Fitch decision someone.
Anyone who can utilize striking, submissions, and grappling to inflict damage and finish fights is great in my book.
Damn, Diago Sanchez took over this MMAHour. He's been talking non stop for the last 10 minutes going off on subjects that have nothing to do with what Ariel asked. Helwani clearly just listening because he can't really inject anything there to stop him. Incredible.
So this chick told him it's his kid so you know what I mean he began taking care of him and really gave his live to Jesus Christ, not like he didn't believe before but, you know what I mean. So it wasn't his kid in the end and it was like losing a family member, there's a lot of sick people in this world you know what I mean, on twitter and stuff. And he appreciates his fans on twitter but you know what I mean.
What.
So this chick told him it's his kid so you know what I mean he began taking care of him and really gave his live to Jesus Christ, not like he didn't believe before but, you know what I mean. So it wasn't his kid in the end and it was like losing a family member, there's a lot of sick people in this world you know what I mean, on twitter and stuff. And he appreciates his fans on twitter but you know what I mean.
What.
Haha, yeah, but I think that was quite hard to follow from time to time.
Ariel is a dumbass.
Diego: "We were fighting for custody and I had to take a genetic test and it turned out the kid wasn't mine, I was crushed, it was like losing a part of my family, etc."
Ariel: "So the kid was yours, right?"
Diego: "no"
Ariel: "So wait, how did you find out he wasn't yours?"
parrotbeak
Member
To be fair, I would zone out with Diego talking too.
Cesar Gracie is such a stupid asshole. Yes Condit ran away the whole time, TO THE CENTER OF THE OCTAGON.
Did Diaz even have any interest and and exchange in the center? No. All he wanted to do was push Condit against the cage where he couldn't move and shower him with flurries, like he does in all his other fights. Condit is more of a kickboxer, he strikes from more of a distance, which is why he had to back up a lot, and of course he didn't want to get stuck pressed up against the cage, no one in their right mind should.
Carlos executed his game plan better, he outstruck Diaz, and got the win fair and square. Gracie's just a fucking enabler, making excuses for Nick. If people are crying that Condit didn't do anything to win, they should be upset with Nick even more.
"Wahwahwah, bu-bu-bu-but he promised a dog fight!!1"
Did Diaz even have any interest and and exchange in the center? No. All he wanted to do was push Condit against the cage where he couldn't move and shower him with flurries, like he does in all his other fights. Condit is more of a kickboxer, he strikes from more of a distance, which is why he had to back up a lot, and of course he didn't want to get stuck pressed up against the cage, no one in their right mind should.
Carlos executed his game plan better, he outstruck Diaz, and got the win fair and square. Gracie's just a fucking enabler, making excuses for Nick. If people are crying that Condit didn't do anything to win, they should be upset with Nick even more.
"Wahwahwah, bu-bu-bu-but he promised a dog fight!!1"
RBelong2Us
Member
White offered Hendo a fight with Lil Nog.... are you kidding me? This dudes last two fights he finished Fedor and then won a war with Shogun and you're gonna have him fight a dude 10 steps back of those two?
Disrespectful, plus it would have been a fight on like FuelTV, lol.
Disrespectful, plus it would have been a fight on like FuelTV, lol.
TheKaeptain
Banned
http://www.sherdog.com/videos/recent/Coach-Speak-Trainer-Reacts-to-Condits-UFC-143-Win-3709
Jackson speaks the truth.
Also,
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Diaz-Announces-Retirement-After-UFC-143-Loss-to-Condit-39957
Diaz didn't try and get the sub because he thought he was up. Isn't that playing safe and everything Yaco and his crew hates about fighters? He thought he was up so he just got on Condit's back and cruised because he thought he was up in the cards.
Jackson speaks the truth.
Also,
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Diaz-Announces-Retirement-After-UFC-143-Loss-to-Condit-39957
Diaz didn't try and get the sub because he thought he was up. Isn't that playing safe and everything Yaco and his crew hates about fighters? He thought he was up so he just got on Condit's back and cruised because he thought he was up in the cards.
TheKaeptain
Banned
http://www.mmafighting.com/ufc/2012/2/6/2771060/the-mma-hour-with-diego-sanchez-jake-ellenberger-mayhem-miller-dave
Cesar is crying about the fight right now.
Edit: Whoa Cesar is a bitter bitch. LMAO.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Jackson is going to be on now.
Edit: Oh yeah Cesar said Carlos greased because he didn't wipe off the water after a round.
Jackson is saying the stick and move is how you beat Diaz.
Edit: Oh yeah Cesar said Carlos greased because he didn't wipe off the water after a round.
Jackson is saying the stick and move is how you beat Diaz.
I knew the fight was over when Nate told Nick he was winning the fight.
Hopefully Nick uses this fight as a learning experience and works on his footwork. If he starts cutting guys off instead of following them he'll be infinitely more dangerous.
Greg Jackson just laid out the blueprint to beat Nick. Now it's up to Nick to evolve or die.
Hopefully Nick uses this fight as a learning experience and works on his footwork. If he starts cutting guys off instead of following them he'll be infinitely more dangerous.
Greg Jackson just laid out the blueprint to beat Nick. Now it's up to Nick to evolve or die.
2nd best or 5th best, doesn't really matter because the golf between the best guy and the rest is enormous.
and besides the champ you also have a guy at 205# who is the scissors to machida's paper.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Jackson will not corner or coach either GSP or Conduit.
not surprising since that is the same stance he took with rashad/JBJ. and i like to hate on jackson as much as the next guy, but i think his involvement is overblown in the fighters training camps and what not. like gsp trains with firas and tri-star predominantly, so not like this effects him.
Machida arguably lost the first Shogun fight too.
Having said that, he's basically only lost to beasts in Shogun and Bones, and the Rampage fight was lackluster but still very close.
I agree that #2 is too much at this point, but I would say he's definitely top 5 at LHW.
Though yacobod is basically right anyway, that it's irrelevant who comes after Jones at #1 since he seems so much better than anyone else in the division. Whoever you have at #2-#5 is likely to lose to him regardless.
If Jones gets through Rashad, the only potential #2 guy he wouldn't have creamed yet is Hendo. Mousasi is one of my favorite fighters but I think he'd just get taken down and elbowed to death by Jones, even if Mousasi is generally great at avoiding damage off his back. When Jones can elbow you in the face sitting in your guard, you don't want to be on your back against that guy.
Host Samurai
Member
I still say outside of Bones, Machida and Shogun are the best at LHW and will have the division on lock down once Bones goes to HW next year.
moving to heavyweight that quickly? i think he'll(dana) probably consider the move a few years down.
TheKaeptain
Banned
He isn't moving next year.
Was this already posted?
Brutal head kick to a downed opponent mma fight
I guess that is what you get trying to emulate Jon Jones.
edit
wtf is see this happened at the same event: Double knock out when two fighters bust through cage door at MMA fight
Brutal head kick to a downed opponent mma fight
I guess that is what you get trying to emulate Jon Jones.
edit
wtf is see this happened at the same event: Double knock out when two fighters bust through cage door at MMA fight
EYEL1NER
Member
Damn, I was going to post that crabwalk vid.
^The guy taking that kick to the face posted on underground when that video came up. He was a bit disappointed about the cold reception his performance received.
So now even Joe Rogan thinks Condit lost that fight. Wouldn't be surprised if Dana makes the rematch happen, or at least tries his best. Quite a sport indeed if they begin rematching fights just because the results weren't what the fans wanted.
So now even Joe Rogan thinks Condit lost that fight. Wouldn't be surprised if Dana makes the rematch happen, or at least tries his best. Quite a sport indeed if they begin rematching fights just because the results weren't what the fans wanted.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked