-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
MMA |OT2| - Thread of Athletes, Fighters, Personalities, and Sports Entertainment
- Thread starter yacobod
- Start date
TheNatural
My Member!
Except when the guy gets his ass kicked and there's no payoff because he cries after the fight and there's another rematch booked.
Well yes, you know I agree with you. I was speaking in broader terms, lol, just the Diaz comparison made it appropiate.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
It's also funny seeing yaco talk about Daley/Diaz being a good scrap when he's talked shit about Daley and his boxing not too long ago if I remember correctly.
A lot of us said that during the Overeem/Diaz transition to the UFC. That doesn't make him any less exciting of a fighter, though. He brings it.
Because most people had Diaz winning rounds 1,2, and 5. And because he kept walking forward looking to engage and his opponent who is nicknamed "Natural Born Killer" decided to not kill, but to kick the shin and thigh while circling.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
Most people did not. Walking forward and having one takedown and one good flurry is not good. Jesus people do not understand MMA.
TheNatural
My Member!
Bullshit. Most Diaz fans, sure. Feel free to show me how Diaz won on objective striking though when you look at the cold hard facts.
Fixed.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Oh you're a Diaz nut hugged. Make sense now. Walk forward and dropping your hands acting tough doesn't equal anything.
BigJonsson
Member
I was watching at work with a few people who watch UFC regularly and understand how fights are usually scored, and a few that only watch UFC when its on at work and don't know the judging system at all
We all had Condit winning 3-2
We all had Condit winning 3-2
TheNatural
My Member!
Diaz defense force is only down to two people left in here, so generalized statements about most people are being thrown out now. It's kind of like a Newt Gingrich rally.
Lets make up things now.
You guys serious? All those tweets from fighters and journalist don't mean shit huh?
At any rate, my opinion is that Condit did win, but I could see why people could give the nod to Diaz.
Condit is usually aggressive and I was expecting him to come out looking to kill. That's not to say I don't appreciate a technical fight. When Machida fights, I know what to expect, I can appreciate that.
At any rate, my opinion is that Condit did win, but I could see why people could give the nod to Diaz.
Condit is usually aggressive and I was expecting him to come out looking to kill. That's not to say I don't appreciate a technical fight. When Machida fights, I know what to expect, I can appreciate that.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
I interpreted your post about Daley/Masvidal wrong I guess.
Host Samurai
Member
Oh shit, a difference of a opinion make you a nuthugger? Does that mean you banana riding Condit? Dropping your hands means you are confident your opponent cant hurt you. It equals an invitation for a Born Killer to come at you.
Light jabs all day? Scoring them points for sure though.
@FrontRowBrian is saying it's not for missing any tests or medicals, but that it's weed again. We'll see if it's true.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Host Samurai
Member
The fight in a nutshell.
There are worse gifs you can use. Every time Nick engaged Condit would back peddle and run away. Condit promised a war and gave us a karate point fight. I was getting very annoyed with him during this fight and I liked Condit.
dream
Member
Even days after the conclusion of the fight, the debates remain. Who won between Carlos Condit and Nick Diaz?
According to the judges, Condit won a unanimous decision to become the UFC interim welterweight champion on 2/4 at the Mandalay Bay Events Center in Las Vegas. The decision was close, and there is guaranteed outrage over any big main event where it could have gone either way.
The facts are this. Condit backed up most of the five rounds and Diaz moved forward. Condit outlanded Diaz in four of the five rounds. Condit came in with a game plan that was not meant to be entertaining, but meant to throw Diaz off his game. He did so. Diaz was befuddled for most of the fight to find an answer to Condit's backing up, moving in, landing something and moving away. That doesn't necessarily mean Diaz lost, since people were split and if anything, the appearance is more felt Diaz won. But this was not the Shogun Rua vs. Lyoto Machida decision where virtually everyone was on the other side. This was a battle of interpretations and what means more, being the aggressor, landing more, head shots vs. leg shots, being more comfortable and fighting your fight. And there was the caveat that almost everyone wanted to see Diaz win because the fight everyone wanted was Georges St. Pierre vs. Diaz, even people who don't like Diaz. The thing is, with Diaz, everyone has an opinion. Some don't like him. A lot. Some like him. A lot. With Condit, nobody has an opinion. He's just a guy who is a good fighter that nobody really cares about.
With the win by Condit, at first glance, that fight appears to be out of the question. But nothing is for sure.
While people can argue over who should have won, there is no question what fight the public wanted, which was a Condit vs. Diaz rematch, even though the first fight was not all that exciting. At least our polls showed 68% thinking there should be a rematch. It was sensing public opinion that led to it happening. On Saturday, after the fight, when it was suggested to Dana White about a rematch, he dismissed the idea, and said it was crazy. White said he felt Condit won 48-47. When I heard the question, I thought the same thing. Condit won clean. It wasn't pretty. It wasn't that entertaining. But he won the fight and earned his title shot. Diaz didn't get killed, but in no way does he deserve a second chance to do what he couldn't do the first time.
However, as it became clear that not everyone felt that Condit had won, you could sense there was interest in a second fight, which is important since UFC has far more shows than they have main events that there is significant interest in. At first, Condit claimed he wanted to fight once before GSP is healthy, while Diaz said if he won, he would wait for GSP. But after the win, Condit said he'd wait for GSP while Diaz claimed he was retired.
Dana White evidently saw public opinion and figured the best thing in the big picture was a rematch, although Malki Kawa, Condit's agent, once again said they had no interest in such a match. They said that in everyone's opinion who mattered (the judges who scored the fight, and White, who can if he disagrees with decisions do things to override them like book the loser like he won, or give the loser that he thinks won a winning bonus and treat him like he won) that Condit had won the fight. Plus, Condit had already been jacked around due to things that in no way were his fault.
He was supposed to face GSP on 10/29, a fight that fell apart when GSP first got hurt. Then he was promised GSP when healthy. Then the fight was pulled because Diaz, beating B.J. Penn on 10/29 while Condit sat the show out waiting for his guaranteed title shot, talked his way into the fight by insulting GSP which caused GSP to demand Diaz. But then GSP got hurt again, so Condit and Diaz got their shot at the interim title, where the winner had a belt and thus would have to face GSP first.
Condit had leverage and evidently White wanted to make the fight badly enough to meet a price Condit felt was worth it to give up his guaranteed shot at GSP. Because this fight may cost him, it may have to be on PPV, even though having it on the 5/5 FOX show would at least guarantee that show does good ratings, something that the current lineup hardly does. But White and Condit were to meet on 2/11 to work out all the details.
From the UFC standpoint, if Diaz wins, then they get the GSP vs. Diaz fight, which may be the biggest non-boxing PPV of the year. If Condit wins, he'll have beaten Diaz twice. While some may feel he doesn't deserve the belt he's got or the shot to unify, a second win, unless it's controversial, has a good chance to quelling any controversy. If the fight is put on FOX, it's a bigger stage for both men, and sets the stage where the biggest number of viewers sees them and will in theory be interested in seeing the story to its conclusion, which is the GSP fight with the winner. Condit can erase the controversy, build up his name, in theory, put on a performance that will make people interested in him as an opponent for GSP, which the first win did not do. So it's not like it's a no-win situation past the money for him. But the reality is, had Diaz gotten the same close decision, I don't believe for a second there would be a rematch. It's just the reality of a sport where match-ups are decided based on what it is perceived the fans want to see, and that favors, often greatly, stars that fans are interested in. On the surface, it' s not fair, but in another fashion, it is, just fair in the reality that it is a star-driven business and being a star is a lot more than just wins and losses, and in the end, it's about promoters giving people what they want to see within reason. When the fight was over, I thought, as did Dana White, that a rematch was unreasonable. But the perception of public opinion led White down the other direction, and ultimately, reading the public is a huge part of being a successful promoter.
Four of the five rounds were exclusively standing. Condit outlanded Diaz 151-105 in significant strikes, with a 29-23 edge in the first round, Diaz had a 32-29 edge in the second, but Condit had the edge in the next three rounds 32-22, 36-11 and 25-17. The fifth round saw Condit clearly winning the stand-up, but Diaz got him down and got his back and was working for a choke and an armbar, but never really came close with either. A lot of Condit's offense came in the way of low kicks. Diaz did have a 62-55 edge in strikes to the head, but just as you can say Condit's low kicks were more like jabs as opposed to power shots, almost all of Diaz's punches were jabs as well, as in power shots, Condit had a 12-8 edge.
As far as the judging went, to me, the only solid rounds were three and four, which were both clearly for Condit. Rounds one, two and five could be reasonably scored in either direction. However, two judges, Patricia Morse Jarman and Cecil Peoples, who both scored it 49-46 for Condit, gave Diaz only the third round, one of the two he seemingly clearly lost. The third judge, Junichiro Kamijo, was the only one with a reasonable card, giving Diaz rounds two and five, which were the same two rounds as the Fightmetric scorecard gave Diaz. So the problem then became even if you were to defend the verdict based on the judges, you are left with a problem because two cards identically made no sense. And they both came from Nevada judges who have been under fire many times in the past. After the fight, even though White agreed with the verdict (he gave Condit rounds three through five), he still did a rant on how bad the judging in MMA has been, how it's hurting the sport and how the athletic commissions need to train both judges and referees, noting too many people are being robbed in decisions.
Based on preliminary trends, the show looks to have done in the range of 400,000 buys, which is more than I would have predicted. The key seems to be the Prime Time show, with so much talk stemming in particular from episode two, but also episode three. Most of our indicators, from the web site poll, to the newsletter poll, had a higher volume than expected as well. Because the show had no undercard, and really nothing was even promoted hard but the main event, it's clear that Diaz's win over B.J. Penn and his antics involving GSP have made him a draw. The interest in this fight was because people smelled GSP vs. Diaz and saw this as step one in the story. The strongest markets per capita look to have been Edmonton, Las Vegas, Calgary, Albuquerque (Condit's home city), Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Dallas, Toronto, San Francisco (Diaz is from Northern California), Montreal (GSP's home market since he was to face the winner), Halifax (GSP strong market), Phoenix, San Antonio and San Diego. And once again, with the new time slot being back to the old time slot, we're seeing a stronger West Coast skew in the best markets.
According to the judges, Condit won a unanimous decision to become the UFC interim welterweight champion on 2/4 at the Mandalay Bay Events Center in Las Vegas. The decision was close, and there is guaranteed outrage over any big main event where it could have gone either way.
The facts are this. Condit backed up most of the five rounds and Diaz moved forward. Condit outlanded Diaz in four of the five rounds. Condit came in with a game plan that was not meant to be entertaining, but meant to throw Diaz off his game. He did so. Diaz was befuddled for most of the fight to find an answer to Condit's backing up, moving in, landing something and moving away. That doesn't necessarily mean Diaz lost, since people were split and if anything, the appearance is more felt Diaz won. But this was not the Shogun Rua vs. Lyoto Machida decision where virtually everyone was on the other side. This was a battle of interpretations and what means more, being the aggressor, landing more, head shots vs. leg shots, being more comfortable and fighting your fight. And there was the caveat that almost everyone wanted to see Diaz win because the fight everyone wanted was Georges St. Pierre vs. Diaz, even people who don't like Diaz. The thing is, with Diaz, everyone has an opinion. Some don't like him. A lot. Some like him. A lot. With Condit, nobody has an opinion. He's just a guy who is a good fighter that nobody really cares about.
With the win by Condit, at first glance, that fight appears to be out of the question. But nothing is for sure.
While people can argue over who should have won, there is no question what fight the public wanted, which was a Condit vs. Diaz rematch, even though the first fight was not all that exciting. At least our polls showed 68% thinking there should be a rematch. It was sensing public opinion that led to it happening. On Saturday, after the fight, when it was suggested to Dana White about a rematch, he dismissed the idea, and said it was crazy. White said he felt Condit won 48-47. When I heard the question, I thought the same thing. Condit won clean. It wasn't pretty. It wasn't that entertaining. But he won the fight and earned his title shot. Diaz didn't get killed, but in no way does he deserve a second chance to do what he couldn't do the first time.
However, as it became clear that not everyone felt that Condit had won, you could sense there was interest in a second fight, which is important since UFC has far more shows than they have main events that there is significant interest in. At first, Condit claimed he wanted to fight once before GSP is healthy, while Diaz said if he won, he would wait for GSP. But after the win, Condit said he'd wait for GSP while Diaz claimed he was retired.
Dana White evidently saw public opinion and figured the best thing in the big picture was a rematch, although Malki Kawa, Condit's agent, once again said they had no interest in such a match. They said that in everyone's opinion who mattered (the judges who scored the fight, and White, who can if he disagrees with decisions do things to override them like book the loser like he won, or give the loser that he thinks won a winning bonus and treat him like he won) that Condit had won the fight. Plus, Condit had already been jacked around due to things that in no way were his fault.
He was supposed to face GSP on 10/29, a fight that fell apart when GSP first got hurt. Then he was promised GSP when healthy. Then the fight was pulled because Diaz, beating B.J. Penn on 10/29 while Condit sat the show out waiting for his guaranteed title shot, talked his way into the fight by insulting GSP which caused GSP to demand Diaz. But then GSP got hurt again, so Condit and Diaz got their shot at the interim title, where the winner had a belt and thus would have to face GSP first.
Condit had leverage and evidently White wanted to make the fight badly enough to meet a price Condit felt was worth it to give up his guaranteed shot at GSP. Because this fight may cost him, it may have to be on PPV, even though having it on the 5/5 FOX show would at least guarantee that show does good ratings, something that the current lineup hardly does. But White and Condit were to meet on 2/11 to work out all the details.
From the UFC standpoint, if Diaz wins, then they get the GSP vs. Diaz fight, which may be the biggest non-boxing PPV of the year. If Condit wins, he'll have beaten Diaz twice. While some may feel he doesn't deserve the belt he's got or the shot to unify, a second win, unless it's controversial, has a good chance to quelling any controversy. If the fight is put on FOX, it's a bigger stage for both men, and sets the stage where the biggest number of viewers sees them and will in theory be interested in seeing the story to its conclusion, which is the GSP fight with the winner. Condit can erase the controversy, build up his name, in theory, put on a performance that will make people interested in him as an opponent for GSP, which the first win did not do. So it's not like it's a no-win situation past the money for him. But the reality is, had Diaz gotten the same close decision, I don't believe for a second there would be a rematch. It's just the reality of a sport where match-ups are decided based on what it is perceived the fans want to see, and that favors, often greatly, stars that fans are interested in. On the surface, it' s not fair, but in another fashion, it is, just fair in the reality that it is a star-driven business and being a star is a lot more than just wins and losses, and in the end, it's about promoters giving people what they want to see within reason. When the fight was over, I thought, as did Dana White, that a rematch was unreasonable. But the perception of public opinion led White down the other direction, and ultimately, reading the public is a huge part of being a successful promoter.
Four of the five rounds were exclusively standing. Condit outlanded Diaz 151-105 in significant strikes, with a 29-23 edge in the first round, Diaz had a 32-29 edge in the second, but Condit had the edge in the next three rounds 32-22, 36-11 and 25-17. The fifth round saw Condit clearly winning the stand-up, but Diaz got him down and got his back and was working for a choke and an armbar, but never really came close with either. A lot of Condit's offense came in the way of low kicks. Diaz did have a 62-55 edge in strikes to the head, but just as you can say Condit's low kicks were more like jabs as opposed to power shots, almost all of Diaz's punches were jabs as well, as in power shots, Condit had a 12-8 edge.
As far as the judging went, to me, the only solid rounds were three and four, which were both clearly for Condit. Rounds one, two and five could be reasonably scored in either direction. However, two judges, Patricia Morse Jarman and Cecil Peoples, who both scored it 49-46 for Condit, gave Diaz only the third round, one of the two he seemingly clearly lost. The third judge, Junichiro Kamijo, was the only one with a reasonable card, giving Diaz rounds two and five, which were the same two rounds as the Fightmetric scorecard gave Diaz. So the problem then became even if you were to defend the verdict based on the judges, you are left with a problem because two cards identically made no sense. And they both came from Nevada judges who have been under fire many times in the past. After the fight, even though White agreed with the verdict (he gave Condit rounds three through five), he still did a rant on how bad the judging in MMA has been, how it's hurting the sport and how the athletic commissions need to train both judges and referees, noting too many people are being robbed in decisions.
Based on preliminary trends, the show looks to have done in the range of 400,000 buys, which is more than I would have predicted. The key seems to be the Prime Time show, with so much talk stemming in particular from episode two, but also episode three. Most of our indicators, from the web site poll, to the newsletter poll, had a higher volume than expected as well. Because the show had no undercard, and really nothing was even promoted hard but the main event, it's clear that Diaz's win over B.J. Penn and his antics involving GSP have made him a draw. The interest in this fight was because people smelled GSP vs. Diaz and saw this as step one in the story. The strongest markets per capita look to have been Edmonton, Las Vegas, Calgary, Albuquerque (Condit's home city), Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Dallas, Toronto, San Francisco (Diaz is from Northern California), Montreal (GSP's home market since he was to face the winner), Halifax (GSP strong market), Phoenix, San Antonio and San Diego. And once again, with the new time slot being back to the old time slot, we're seeing a stronger West Coast skew in the best markets.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Every time Nick would throw punches Condit used his head and foot movement to not get hit you say! How dare he not stand in front of him let Diaz punch him in the face.
Jabs and baby kicks in my opinion. Also, those spinning back fists were thrown with the intention of scoring points and not knocking his head off. I see through his tricks. How dare this guy go to a decision 3 times in 33 fights.
If he could practice running away he could practice dipping shots like Silva.
Ellenberger will win. Struve is a decent underdog bet but I'd probably go Herman in a straight pick 'em.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Word is it is weed.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Silva does the say shit when his back is against the cage. For fuck sake some of the greatest boxers of all time do it too.
Sorry. I have these though
Dats the same kick brah, need mo' evidences.
I hate fairweathers, people were throwing shit in open bags when Machida was leveling every fool every round, and he was actually knocking fools.
Hate to see Condit get credit for hit and run, just because people hate Diaz. It was a good fight, but hypocrisy is still an ugly "quality".
Hate to see Condit get credit for hit and run, just because people hate Diaz. It was a good fight, but hypocrisy is still an ugly "quality".
That's what I feel is going on in this thread.
He tried to take him down after losing on the feet and failed. Don't tell me he'll get his back at will either, haha.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Yep. So the one thing he talks shit about (winning rounds by meaningless takedowns) is what he has to go to because he knew he was losing his big pay day.
parrotbeak
Member
I'm just concerned about Goldie. He was already having a hard time spitting out the recap to how Diaz Condit came to be.
What people think Condit should have done:
Fixed.
I don't think any were really committed to except for in the 5th.
The way he got him seems could happen again pretty easy because Condit wants to run when cornered.
Silva does what Concan't
parrotbeak
Member
Sherdog for Fuel is up: http://fantasy.sherdog.com/JanFeb2012/cards/view
Why is this on a Wednesday? I guess it's another card I will watch vicariously through MMAGaf while at work.
Why is this on a Wednesday? I guess it's another card I will watch vicariously through MMAGaf while at work.
TheNatural
My Member!
The difference between the two is sometimes Machida is way too passive when he fights. I have no problem with evasive defense to avoid fighting on someone elses terms. Condit did plenty in the center of the octagon with different types of kicks, combos, spinning back fists about 20 times, etc that I don't see how anyone can complain he ran.
Sometimes Machida doesn't do that though. Look at the first Shogun fight, Shogun dictated the fight in the center similar to Condit. Machida's great when he decides he wants to be more aggressive than just waiting for a counter punch opportunity to come to him.
parrotbeak
Member
This. Machida can be great and I enjoy him when he is. But then he has fights like the first 2 rounds of the Rampage fight that were just nothing, and he expected to win. That's what pisses me off. Condit was trying to finish. Nick just ducked a lot of punches and elbows, and ate some head kicks cuz he's a tough mofo.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked