Moon Studios (Ori devs, No Rest For the Wicked devs) are in trouble
- Thread starter drotahorror
- Start date
MandingoMcThickens
Member
Early Access is a scam.
near
Member
This isn't true.
Article: In addition, we recently made the strategic decision to sell our Private Division label to focus our resources on growing our core and mobile businesses for the long-term. As part of this transaction, the buyer purchased our rights to substantially all of Private Division's live and unreleased titles. Take-Two will continue to support No Rest for the Wicked, which launched in Early Access on PC in April. We are grateful for the contributions that the Private Division team has made to our company and are confident that they will continue to achieve success in their new home.
They would have had the support of T2 directly after the sale of Private Division, there was no uncertainty about that. However, they chose not to work with them because they believed they could operate more freely without restrictions. But at what cost? It seems the future of the entire studio.
Buggy Loop
Member
Well that seals the argument
They risked it all, they were not even cornered. If the studio ever closes down because they could not have contingency for finishing their project...
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Astray
Member
I distinctly remember T2 saying this, which makes it super odd that Moon Studios decided to buy out the IP at this stage. Maybe they thought they would buy it while it's still not a big IP and this way get it for cheaper than doing it post full version launch?
It's always the developers that constantly shittalk other devs huh?
ReBurn
Gold Member
Funding via early access seems like it could be a risky way to pay for a game. If you put a game that in an unfinished state out there and people who paid for it don't like how you're proceeding then they will publish negative reviews. Is that review bombing or is it organic? I don't know the full history here so I can't say for sure.
T4keD0wN
Member
Theyll get my review once it fully release, cannot in good faith review a game ive played for barely 15 minutes a year ago, hoping for the best and that theyll hit 1.0 while remaining independant.
One would think that a studio with such an impressive portfolio would have no trouble finding another publisher had they wanted, not sure whats actually true on this front, but having a history of volatile publisher relationships (no matter whos fault that is) is not exactly an attractive trait.
That is my takeaway from this too. Staking the existence of the whole company on new sales generated by a major update (not even full release) during steams early access, hoping itll be enough to sustain you to completion sure is one hell of a risk.
One would think that a studio with such an impressive portfolio would have no trouble finding another publisher had they wanted, not sure whats actually true on this front, but having a history of volatile publisher relationships (no matter whos fault that is) is not exactly an attractive trait.
xrnzaaas
Member
Steam is still the best platform for releasing an unfinished product. Some studios pick Epic to get money from an exclusivity deal, but the sales of the early access version will be much worse and that may hurt you if the game needs a playerbase or if the project wants to rely on player recommendations.
I think a part of the problem is early access itself. You're experimenting on a living organism and players may not like some of the changes you're making to a product they've already purchased. Some will be inpatient it's taking too long. Also there are people who simply won't buy any early access versions and will be waiting for a full release.
hououinkyouma00
Gold Member
Yeah, it sucks but shit happens.
I don't think consumers should "bail" developers out. I know it sucks to be a small studio and it's unfortunate that they may not make it through but you make decisions and you have to deal with them.
To me it kinda seems like they stretched too far.
Private Division was being wound up, so I can't imagine that buying back the rights would have cost millions.
You'd have to expect that MS wouldn't be blocking an Ori port. Though you make a good point that the money Moon studios would realize from such an endeavor would not be crazy money.
LavitzSlambert
Member
The game looks awesome and I've been looking forward to it, but I have zero interest in early access unless I'm getting the game for pennies on the dollar. $20, $30, $40 is not a price range I'd ever consider given you could be throwing money in the trash when the studio stops working on the game.
Maybe more devs should stop looking at early access as an "opportunity" to get fast access to money, and view it more of a risk to the game's reputation when people have access to your alpha/beta build. You can't ask people for their money and then complain when they give you bad reviews because "the game isn't finished!" Finish the game, then ask for money.
Maybe more devs should stop looking at early access as an "opportunity" to get fast access to money, and view it more of a risk to the game's reputation when people have access to your alpha/beta build. You can't ask people for their money and then complain when they give you bad reviews because "the game isn't finished!" Finish the game, then ask for money.
TDiddyLive
Member
Same. He claims review bombing but it all sounds like people legitimately not enjoying the game. That's not review bombing, it's just reviewing.
ShadyAcshuns
Member
That sucks. Hope they can recover.
Fess
Member
I'm thinking making Ori 3 is the only way Ori can make Moon rich at this point. Would they even be the ones doing PS ports? They seem focused 100% on Wicked and MS aren't working with them and MS owns the game.
I have no idea how the money flows, if MS would outsource the porting job to a different studio, would Moon get an original creator cut from each sale even with no ties with Microsoft anymore?
Chukhopops
Member
Sucks to be in that situation especially with an early access game. I guess he wouldn't spit on that GP money now even though he bitched he wasn't getting enough out of the deal.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
That's complete and utter BS and people should stop believing every sensationalist headline some third class 'journalist' comes up with.
We're in touch with MS on a weekly basis.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
No, it never did.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
wtf count me in! what do you need me to review?
Buggy Loop
Member
Oh ok, well I'm going off by what's circulating so I guess we never heard your side of the story.
Good thing relationship is good. I really hope you guys pull it off and its not too dire right now for finishing the game. I bought the EA and of course I want to see the project all the way to the end, otherwise I wouldn't have jumped in early.
TexMex
Member
MS isn't blocking anything. Just because it isn't already here doesn't mean that they aren't, or don't want to. Things take time. Like I said, he low key confirmed they are.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
wasn't this game on early acces?
Miyazaki’s Slave
Gold Member
TLDR: if you bought the game and enjoyed it at all, just drop a thumbs up on Steam and a "good luck" comment. It can only help the game in the long run if you want to revisit it in the future.
***
from an indie dev perspective (not ANYWHERE close to the size/scope of Moon) his post hits very close to home.
I fully admit and recognize that is on the developer to create a game that resonates with its target audience but that isn't any easy process and in the case of many games today, that takes time to execute when you are working on your own dime.
NRFTW has issues yes (what game doesn't) but it is a game worth supporting if you are a fan of ARPG's. I could list out all the reasons I think the game is great but that will side track my point.
For this dev to put their cards on the table like that is humbling and humiliating. Everyday we have to make decisions we think will improve the product we make, which hopefully results in more copies sold, which helps to repeat the cycle.
The unfortunate part, these folks are not EA, Ubisoft, Xbox, etc, so the stakes are incredibly high. Yes, you can point to their decision to part ways with their publishers and say "haha fuck around and find out"…but there again we do not know how bad the relationship with that publisher could be.
I have been a part of extremely brutal and one sided publisher relationships which from the outside look like great "deals"…they seldomly are.
Sorry for rambling here, but like I said, the OT resonates with me and I just wanted to share the opinion/perspective of someone on the other side.
***
from an indie dev perspective (not ANYWHERE close to the size/scope of Moon) his post hits very close to home.
I fully admit and recognize that is on the developer to create a game that resonates with its target audience but that isn't any easy process and in the case of many games today, that takes time to execute when you are working on your own dime.
NRFTW has issues yes (what game doesn't) but it is a game worth supporting if you are a fan of ARPG's. I could list out all the reasons I think the game is great but that will side track my point.
For this dev to put their cards on the table like that is humbling and humiliating. Everyday we have to make decisions we think will improve the product we make, which hopefully results in more copies sold, which helps to repeat the cycle.
The unfortunate part, these folks are not EA, Ubisoft, Xbox, etc, so the stakes are incredibly high. Yes, you can point to their decision to part ways with their publishers and say "haha fuck around and find out"…but there again we do not know how bad the relationship with that publisher could be.
I have been a part of extremely brutal and one sided publisher relationships which from the outside look like great "deals"…they seldomly are.
Sorry for rambling here, but like I said, the OT resonates with me and I just wanted to share the opinion/perspective of someone on the other side.
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GHG
Gold Member
I think you just have to be selective.
Hades 2 released in to early access and still managed to be one of the best games of last year, same goes for BG3 in the year it released in to early access. Then there's stuff like this which I'd say is in the category below, so still well worth a purchase in its current state if you like the genre.
Solarstrike
Gold Member
Perfect time for Nintendo to acquire them.
Poppinfresh
Member
Why though?
If the game is a lagy, blurry mess why would you give them a good review? At that point all you are doing is misleading potential buyers.
I can't say I care one way or the other if this studio goes under or not, but reading this thread and some reddit threads on the situation, it seems like they aren't being "review bombed" and the negative reviews they are getting are fair and earned.
It's survival of the fittest, and maybe this company just isn't going to survive.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
Dude, really? Can we maybe at some point stop talking out of our butts about things we don't know?
The only reason we didn't sign with MS regarding Wicked was because their deal was for Xbox exclusivity and that didn't make sense to us at that point, so we signed with Private Division. If for some reason you think you know more than me, well then, enlighten me
TexMex
Member
I agree. I don't really see it as a sign of them being pathetic as much as it is a sad state of affairs on PC that your entire success can be based around something as arbitrary as a Steam review and the fickle people who write them.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
I… don't care at all if they're in trouble. Not our problem. It's a tough industry, it's sink or swim. Not everyone can swim forever. Ori games were good… this one? Ehhh 
From the ashes maybe something better will come along. This is a natural cycle of a lot of small devs. It can be unfortunate but it is what it is.
No one owes them anything, and going online and begging for some non-game related intervention that involves some kind of homework on the part of paying customers is ***never*** how you do it.
Other devs who might be reading this thread:
never, ever do this
From the ashes maybe something better will come along. This is a natural cycle of a lot of small devs. It can be unfortunate but it is what it is.
No one owes them anything, and going online and begging for some non-game related intervention that involves some kind of homework on the part of paying customers is ***never*** how you do it.
Other devs who might be reading this thread:
never, ever do this
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Ogbert
Member
Because Ori and the Will of the Wisps is my favourite metroidvania ever and a genuine work of art.
I don't want them to go under.
NRFTW will be a good game eventually. It just shouldn't have gone into EA.
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samoilaaa
Member
this game offers more content than some fully released games
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
They can join or start a new company, it's not necessarily the end.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Probably. Overall the game did not attract much of attention as it was not as extraordinary as Ori was, no a unique selling point - and they were too proud of the fact they cut off their Xbox ties, gaining resentment from the people who were their original fanbase in the first place.Should've stayed with that Xbox partnership.
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GHG
Gold Member
Teams of this size who create quality games need to be supported/protected.
If they spit off and go their separate ways there's no guarantee they will be able to showcase their talents in the same way, especially if they get swallowed up and lost in a larger publisher.
We've just seen the reverse of this happen with the devs that left Ubisoft and made Expedition 33. Don't take it for granted.
thomasmahler
has just addressed this.
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thomasmahler
Moon Studios
If that's the case, I think that's quite the bullshit policy.
I saw a few posts on twitter asking people to review bomb No Rest for the Wicked because of the 'Thomas is a Nazi' lunatics who insist that every single goddamn thing in the world must be rooted in politics and if you disagree, you're a Nazi. Just look at the negative reviews, we have people that have bought the game, left a negative review while only posting a period in their review (literally ".") and then got a refund and that stuff gets counted by Steam. Meanwhile, I've been working 16-18 hour days since around October of last year... so seeing something like that is obviously quite disparaging.
If you allow users to use your platform to crap on developers while giving them absolutely no recourse, you're really not doing developers any favors. But then again, I don't know if there's really any truth to this being 'policy' in the first place. I'm always just doing what makes sense to me and asking players who are actively playing and loving the product to leave a positive review seems okay to me given that things are quite heated out there with people review bombing games quite frequently not based on a products quality, but based on political beliefs.
Ultimately, we will keep doing what we've always done: We focus on making the best games out there. We want every game we release to become a masterpiece. With No Rest for the Wicked, we said we want to revolutionize the ARPG genre and that's what we're doing. In many ways, Wicked is already a pretty great product and it'll only get better from here. There's more and more features and content coming and after the Hotfixes, people seem very positive already again. And there's already big things in the oven for the next updates!
But these negative reviews will not go away, so now it'll be harder to generate sales because a lot of casual players just hop on Steam, see a 'mixed' review score and are scared off.
Even Path of Exile 2 now has a 'Mostly Negative' score, which of course is hurting their entire studio as well. And then some gamers wonder why they're only left with soulless AAA studios that generate skinner boxes filled with microtransaction trash - it's because if something like that happens to them, they have ways of turning things around. We don't, we're a smaller, independent developer. We need to do what's right for our fans and our community and that is to focus on the quality of our products.
It looked like he just wanted those who enjoyed the game to leave a positive review if they haven't do so already.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
Well, with ARPGs it's not that easy. If you'd want any independent studio to be able to compete in the ARPG space, 'finish the game, then ask for my money' is not the answer due to the complexity of the genre. We made 2 games that were received to Overwhelmingly Positive reviews, but the Ori games are many paradigms less complex than something like No Rest for the Wicked.
We're the underdog here. We're trying to innovate in a genre that's been stale for 2 decades with a team of 90 people compared to the hundreds of people Blizzard, GGG and From Software have. And we're doing it because we think we can contribute something special that you just won't get anywhere else.
And yes, ultimately we're playing a high-risk game here, I'm well-aware of that.
Companies like Blizzard do the same thing we're doing, except they're not openly stating that their game is 'Early Access'. But the version of Diablo 4 that released is a completely different beast than the game you're playing now. At the very least with us we're telling you straight up that we're not done yet.
Hideous Snake
Gold Member
NRFTW is magnificent! This guy is always dramatic though like a teenager on her period
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
Let's just say we had no other choice. If you think I'm toxic, so be it. I don't know you, you don't know me, but people are quite quick to judge others these days. And yeah, maybe I could be the death of Moon Studios, but I'm also the reason the studio, Ori and Wicked exists in the first place
Goalus
Member
Thanks for clearing that up.
As I said earlier in this thread, your game looks stellar, and I cannot understand how anyone can be as dumb as to not expect any breaking changes during early access and then form a bad review if they do happen. Unfortunately I don't play on PC.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
Oh brother, it cost us many, many, many millions. But we did it because we believe we have a hot iron in the oven and if you play Wicked right now, I think you'd probably agree
