SatelliteOfLove
Member
RonaldoSan said:
Which is true, but this nutjob takes the PETA route to show it by slathering on the worst case scenario. He's like the human saccharine lab test.
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Morgan Spurlock, of Supersize Me fame, does it again: The Minimum Wage
- Thread starter Macam
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Which is true, but this nutjob takes the PETA route to show it by slathering on the worst case scenario. He's like the human saccharine lab test.
Macam-This is just the first episode, so it's a little early to know whether it's going to be on DVD, but they've been promoting the hell out of the show for months. I remember seeing commercials for it as far back as April, maybe before. Granted, FX does the same for all of their original shows and their shitty original movies, but it's at least a sign that they want it to succeed.
Phoenix
Member
SoVos20 said:
Actually that's incorrect and mostly irrelevent. The benefit structure of those societies are different as well, particularly when it comes to health care and other benefits that are covered by their governments that are not covered by ours. Just looking at history shows your premise to be incorrect. The minimum wage has gone up several times just in my lifetime and workers wages went up at the same time.
Outdoor Miner
Member
I'm tired of that argument.
JoeBloe CEO could stand to earn less than his standard $500,000 christmas bonus. I'm sure JoeBloe Corp will live after posting net profits of $280 million instead of $300 million.
JoeBloe CEO could stand to earn less than his standard $500,000 christmas bonus. I'm sure JoeBloe Corp will live after posting net profits of $280 million instead of $300 million.
I'm having a hard time finding real comparison figures, I suggest you find them. Also, household income figures may be misleading due to many families now forced to have two incomes, and America does not look good when comparing its bottom income bracket to those of other industrialized nations.
Phoenix
Member
Hitokage said:
I got you covered. Go to www.nationmaster.com. Obscene stats database there
You will find the evidence you seek....cloudwalking
300chf ain't shit to me
Phoenix said:I got you covered. Go to www.nationmaster.com. Obscene stats database there
Also: http://laborsta.ilo.org/ is the International Labour Organization's statistics archive. You should be able to find what you need there, too.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
I'm sure Supersize Me hurt them, but there was alos a rather huge case in the UK a while back which also had an impact. Look up McLibel.
Or go here http://www.mcspotlight.org/
Mc Donalds really fucked themsleves with that one. They went from using the UK's far too strict libel laws to tell people to shut up about McDonalds, some of whom probably only got through to 10s of others a year, to having their problems aired all over the world.
Or go here http://www.mcspotlight.org/
Mc Donalds really fucked themsleves with that one. They went from using the UK's far too strict libel laws to tell people to shut up about McDonalds, some of whom probably only got through to 10s of others a year, to having their problems aired all over the world.
Comfort_Eagle
Banned
This looks to be a pretty good new series. I gotta remember to put it in the Tivo when i get home.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
This actually sounds quite interesting, mainly because the subject is rarely touched upon. Even if it's more reality TV than serious documentary, I'll fork over my money (not earned at a minimum wage job ) to see it on a speciality channel/DVD, because Supersize Me was a really fun experience -- even if it wasn't exactly eye opening.
) to see it on a speciality channel/DVD, because Supersize Me was a really fun experience -- even if it wasn't exactly eye opening.
Groder Mullet
Member
mac said:Does their wealth distribution look like this?
Class-less societies are nothing but a pipe dream.
People should read Nickel and Dimed and The Working Poor to gain some perspective on poverty, minimum wage, and the effects our government programs have on these people.
Excellent reads.
Excellent reads.
enjoy bell woods
Banned
That was a pretty well done episode. I'm very impressed and will watch this the next time it comes on.
Oh, gee! What an educated way to write off the problems of minimum wage! What the fuck, let's all just work from 8 in the morning until 8 or 10 at night (weekends too!) PROBLEM SOLVED!The Experiment said:
Minimum wage in this country is a joke. You get just enough to get by, and nothing more.
Oh yeah - I'm pretty sure I remember Kerry pushing to raise minimum wage to $7/hr.
I know we can all say "well, these people should have went to school..." lots of people have. Job markets in many places throughout the country is a joke, you either cannot find a job or it is impossible to keep one long-term. Lots of college grads who had good jobs end up working the retail life again.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Well I went over to my family's house to watch this (no cable here) and do laundry (no laundry machine), and I have to say it was kind of hard to watch. Some parts just made me want to cry.
All I gotta say is try going five months with no heat Spurlock - I'll show you hardcore. Actually, I can't afford the ridiculous fucking prices the gas company charges to heat my house, so I use a small electric heater I managed to buy when I worked at Target. Problem is you can't let it run while you're not awake - so at night in Winter, no heat.
I managed to snag an electric blanket on clearance when I worked at Target too for like 80% off the original price. Problem is, the thermostat on one side is fruity. So I need to mail it in this summer for warranty repair; so next winter it doesn't default to HELL HEAT and burn my biscuits off.
I do think they went out of the way to focus in on injury and health care, but again - I can relate. Working 12 hours in a shitty factory assembling those awful toy displays you see at Toys R Us, Wal Mart, Target for $7 an hour whole standing on your feet all day on a concrete floor. By the fourth work day 68 hours in, my back was killing me due to a prior lower back injury; making it really difficult to bend, lift, and some times walk. Still you've got no choice but to keep your nose to the grindstone.
I'm looking into education funding options, because I can't keep at this shit forever; and I definitely need to get back to school. Even if I can't damn well afford it.
I'll definitely check those out of the library. Thanks.
All I gotta say is try going five months with no heat Spurlock - I'll show you hardcore. Actually, I can't afford the ridiculous fucking prices the gas company charges to heat my house, so I use a small electric heater I managed to buy when I worked at Target. Problem is you can't let it run while you're not awake - so at night in Winter, no heat.
I managed to snag an electric blanket on clearance when I worked at Target too for like 80% off the original price. Problem is, the thermostat on one side is fruity. So I need to mail it in this summer for warranty repair; so next winter it doesn't default to HELL HEAT and burn my biscuits off.
I do think they went out of the way to focus in on injury and health care, but again - I can relate. Working 12 hours in a shitty factory assembling those awful toy displays you see at Toys R Us, Wal Mart, Target for $7 an hour whole standing on your feet all day on a concrete floor. By the fourth work day 68 hours in, my back was killing me due to a prior lower back injury; making it really difficult to bend, lift, and some times walk. Still you've got no choice but to keep your nose to the grindstone.
I'm looking into education funding options, because I can't keep at this shit forever; and I definitely need to get back to school. Even if I can't damn well afford it.
I'll definitely check those out of the library. Thanks.
homerhendrix
Member
I guess I just don't understand minimum wage as a whole. I would think the competition to hire competent employees would force the wage above the current minimum wage. I would make an uneducated guess that having a federal minimum wage just pushes the bar to the lowest possible spot.
On the other hand, if companies that are currently paying employees the 5.15 an hour have to raise their pay over $1 per employee the company is not going to take the loss, they're just going to get rid of employees and the unemployment rate will rise. Probably half dozen to 6 problem. Just my take.
On the other hand, if companies that are currently paying employees the 5.15 an hour have to raise their pay over $1 per employee the company is not going to take the loss, they're just going to get rid of employees and the unemployment rate will rise. Probably half dozen to 6 problem. Just my take.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Some of my casual observations are as follows:
Raising minimum wage won't adversely affect "job growth" when you consider that it seems the bulk of new jobs being added are of the "shit retail" variety. Low hours. No benefits. Etc. This are J.O.B. jobs, not careers.
Even if federal minimum wage were increased, employers would find a way to save money. When I worked at Target, employees would call off all the damned time; and the managers practically refused to fire these lazy bastards. Why should they? These folks are saving the company money, and they can just work honest suckers like me that show up for work, twice as hard. >:|
Federal Minimum wage tends to cover the "bottom of the barrel" workers. People with no specialized skills, or lacking the College credentials (eight years ago, employers wanted experience; now they want degrees or certifications - and in some markets a Bachelor's Degree is now about the equivalent of a High School Diploma) to get their foot in the door elsewhere. So it would provide a security blanket for folks who can't secure a job making over ten dollars an hour.
Raising minimum wage won't adversely affect "job growth" when you consider that it seems the bulk of new jobs being added are of the "shit retail" variety. Low hours. No benefits. Etc. This are J.O.B. jobs, not careers.
Even if federal minimum wage were increased, employers would find a way to save money. When I worked at Target, employees would call off all the damned time; and the managers practically refused to fire these lazy bastards. Why should they? These folks are saving the company money, and they can just work honest suckers like me that show up for work, twice as hard. >:|
Federal Minimum wage tends to cover the "bottom of the barrel" workers. People with no specialized skills, or lacking the College credentials (eight years ago, employers wanted experience; now they want degrees or certifications - and in some markets a Bachelor's Degree is now about the equivalent of a High School Diploma) to get their foot in the door elsewhere. So it would provide a security blanket for folks who can't secure a job making over ten dollars an hour.
Groder Mullet
Member
Hitokage said:
And who is pushing for this disparity?
Groder Mullet
Member
Phoenix said:Everything is a pipe-dream until someone does it
Its a pipe dream because it isn't feasable. A doctor's knowledge and services are more valuable than a janitors, so on and so forth.
reggieandTFE
Member
True, but CEO's, CFO's and anyone working in financial services are worth a hell of a lot less. But MOST people aren't arguing that unskilled labor should be rewarded the same as skilled; people are asking that the MOTHERFUCKER CEOS who have never cared for a patient or shoveled someone's shit aren't making more than the 475 people who actually do something
edit: Meier, you liked Nickel and Dimed? I thought you were a pretty fierce Republican. Nickel and Dimed has some amazing stories and cold hard facts at the end, but Ehrenreich strikes me as the epitome of ivory tower liberal elite.
Groder Mullet:
You're arguing a total straw man here. The argument isn't for a totally classless society. The argument is that the current level of economic disparity is greater than it should be. You might as well say "Why bother with police? A totally crimeless society is impossible."
Who is pushing the disparity? Quite obviously, the people who benefit the most from it, and the politicians they support. Follow the money.
SoVos20:
You are factually incorrect. Raising the minimum wage does not depress median wages, nor does it inhibit overall economic growth. Every time the debate comes up, someone tries to make your argument, but nobody can ever support it with data from the real world.
ReggieandTFE:
Ehrenreich voted for Nader in 2000, so yeah.
Meier:
As a Republican, and someone who liked that book, how do you feel about the estate tax repeal and the bankruptcy bill?
The Experiment:
...
cloudwalking
Nice link.
You're arguing a total straw man here. The argument isn't for a totally classless society. The argument is that the current level of economic disparity is greater than it should be. You might as well say "Why bother with police? A totally crimeless society is impossible."
Who is pushing the disparity? Quite obviously, the people who benefit the most from it, and the politicians they support. Follow the money.
SoVos20:
You are factually incorrect. Raising the minimum wage does not depress median wages, nor does it inhibit overall economic growth. Every time the debate comes up, someone tries to make your argument, but nobody can ever support it with data from the real world.
ReggieandTFE:
Ehrenreich voted for Nader in 2000, so yeah.
Meier:
As a Republican, and someone who liked that book, how do you feel about the estate tax repeal and the bankruptcy bill?
The Experiment:
...
cloudwalking
Nice link.
what a buncha bull.... min. wage upto $7 is suppose to do what?? my friend couldn't find a job for 3 years straight, and then she did, working at a cafetaria for $6.50 an hour, PART-TIME. she moved on to washing cars at $7.50, PART-TIME. now she's finally got a job there as a custodian (full-time), and the pay's a lot better with pretty good benefits; why am i pissed? because many places give you shit for part-time, let alone a full-time job these days. she doesn't have her own place, doesn't own a car, oh, and did i mention, she in debt with the hospital (NO coverage). she went thru hell to get this job, and she'll be lucky if she can save this money and pay off her debt.
it makes me sad when i see rich lil brats driving off in their Ford Explorers and viewing custodians/janitors/fast food workers/homeless people (make that anyone who works for their own $$) as incompetent and lowly people. $7/hr... psh.
[/end rant]
[/end rage]
it makes me sad when i see rich lil brats driving off in their Ford Explorers and viewing custodians/janitors/fast food workers/homeless people (make that anyone who works for their own $$) as incompetent and lowly people. $7/hr... psh.
[/end rant]
[/end rage]
Attack You
Member
Good show. I'm definitely going to check out those books recommended earlier in the thread.
Working an accumulated 3+ years in retail pushed me into going back to school. I wasn't the fastest worker around, but I was the nicest. Never complained. Customers fucking loved my politeness and courteousness. Always covered co-workers' shifts when they needed someone. In the end, all that got me was $6.50/hour, part-time. "So, this is what I get for being the nice guy? This is what I get for being a good person and 'professional'? Well, thanks, and bye." I have to appreciate how Retail Hell has pushed me back into school, but it's a still a gamble. I'm going to be waking up everyday wondering if it's worth it to go in debt over school, with no guarantees of a better job/career waiting at the end of the tunnel. ::sigh:: What-the-fuck-ever. Bring it on.
Working an accumulated 3+ years in retail pushed me into going back to school. I wasn't the fastest worker around, but I was the nicest. Never complained. Customers fucking loved my politeness and courteousness. Always covered co-workers' shifts when they needed someone. In the end, all that got me was $6.50/hour, part-time. "So, this is what I get for being the nice guy? This is what I get for being a good person and 'professional'? Well, thanks, and bye." I have to appreciate how Retail Hell has pushed me back into school, but it's a still a gamble. I'm going to be waking up everyday wondering if it's worth it to go in debt over school, with no guarantees of a better job/career waiting at the end of the tunnel. ::sigh:: What-the-fuck-ever. Bring it on.
Attack You said:
I've never been a fan of school...and my parents pushed me thru Uni...heck I haven't finished yet mainly becasue I thought it was useless, but the fact of the matter is my education (or what I had of it) got me my current job, and in retail I was much like you, but now I get to do it on a bigger scale and make 4 times the money for the same amount of work. It's definately worth the time and effort, the only hard part now is paying for your education. But really, I think you're on the right track. I never had real motivation through Post Secondary...but you do and that's great.
Phoenix
Member
Groder Mullet said:
A class system has nothing to do with value on services. You can look at the class systems in various social systems in Eastern countries and in historical examples in Europe. That said, the value system that we have that undervalues janitors and garbage men yet overvalues doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. are a fundamental problem with why people waste their lives doing things they don't enjoy.
Unless the government starts seriously driving down the price of education for doctors and lawyers they will continually be "overvalued." I don't see how you can overvalue people that are vital to society. If the price is right huh?Phoenix said:
I'm surprised no one has come in here complaining about the pay of entertainers or teachers yet....
Question: Does Bill Gates not deserve the money he has made?
Question: Does Paris Hilton deserve the wealth she owns?
The main problem isn't that certain professions are overvalued and that certain are undervalued. It's that labor is undervalued and capital is overvalued. That is, people who merely possess wealth have a massive leg up on the schmucks who actually need a job to make money.
There's other stuff, like executive compensation, cronyism, the failure of boards of directors to fulfill their function, and things like that. Basically you've got a very small, very rich segment of society that also wields disproportionate amounts of political power. And as owners, it is in their best interest that workers receive less compensation.
The main problem isn't that certain professions are overvalued and that certain are undervalued. It's that labor is undervalued and capital is overvalued. That is, people who merely possess wealth have a massive leg up on the schmucks who actually need a job to make money.
There's other stuff, like executive compensation, cronyism, the failure of boards of directors to fulfill their function, and things like that. Basically you've got a very small, very rich segment of society that also wields disproportionate amounts of political power. And as owners, it is in their best interest that workers receive less compensation.
Outdoor Miner
Member
Lathentar said:
Will his children?
Well, the problem with minimum wage is that it's not meant to be ANYONE's permanent salary. The wage was enacted to protect unskilled workers from exploitation, but the idea was that these unskilled employees would gain experience and training to either move up or move out to better jobs.
The cost of living has ever increased, but minimum wage largely remains fixed. This is problematic, of course, but would be less so if minimum wage was actually a stepping stone. Sadly, a number of factors has made it so there's now a large class of people stuck at minimum wage with no means of improving their situations with increased pay.
And, of course, the relative static nature of minimum wage means employers always have a pool of applicants for every low-paying job, thus ensuring they won't need to increase salaries.
The cost of living has ever increased, but minimum wage largely remains fixed. This is problematic, of course, but would be less so if minimum wage was actually a stepping stone. Sadly, a number of factors has made it so there's now a large class of people stuck at minimum wage with no means of improving their situations with increased pay.
And, of course, the relative static nature of minimum wage means employers always have a pool of applicants for every low-paying job, thus ensuring they won't need to increase salaries.
But he isn't a minimum wage earner. from Supersize me he seems fairly middle class.
so all he's doing is pretending to be poor and saying how you can't buy proper food etc for a month? Thats not anything like living on minimum wage for real. If it wasn't for the potential that the program may do some good, I'd say its pretty condescending to the poor.
so all he's doing is pretending to be poor and saying how you can't buy proper food etc for a month? Thats not anything like living on minimum wage for real. If it wasn't for the potential that the program may do some good, I'd say its pretty condescending to the poor.
Mandark said:
Do her parents deserve the right to see thier wealth live on through thier children?
Alot of what Disco Stu says rings true. Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. It was established so you didn't have immigrants working for 3 years just to pay off thier company-bought boat ride.
I don't know why people get so upset with Spurlock. His topics (aside from being un-original) are kind of everyday "common sense" societal problems. He does it with a light hearted look. It's just entertainment, he doesn't grandstand like Micheal Moore as some unopposable crusader of truth.
ToxicAdam said:
Never meant to be, but on a practical level, is and has been for a good deal of people for a long time now. Solutions need to be found, and adjusting for inflation is a pretty decent start and ameliorating some of the damage.
And no, honestly, her parents don't deserve the right to see their wealth live on through their children. I'd reenact the death tax so that uber rich people get most of their wealth redistributed back into the society from which they well... swindeled it from.
More to the point... the most valuable thing any parent should impart on their children is the ability to earn money, rather than the money themselves. For the most part, rich parents are able to do that, and assure their children's well being into the future.
Moreover, if you impose a death tax, that Bush removed or cut down on in his first term, then there's at least some incentive for rich people to not hoard, but rather spend while they can, cycling their cash through the economy.
Zaptruder said:
You live in the wrong country if you think that will ever happen.
It also shines a light on why you view things the way you do. Anyone with wealth has stolen thier money, hunh? It's that attitude that perpetuates misery. It's that attitude that makes people stay in minimum wage jobs when they could do much better for themselves.
I used to have contempt for people who think like this, now I just feel sorry for them. Pessimistic, cynical and "oh woe is me". A miserable way to live life.
FortNinety
Member
Great idea for a show. But I would much prefer anyone else doing it as opposed to this Spurlock character who I find rather annoying and condesending.
i think he should have done more to profile the actual people that do live with min. wages.
other than that I was laughing my ass off when her wife started bitching his ear out about spending that 1.20 on getting those buns :lol
You could definately tell these two would not be able to live with just min wages for more than a year...esp when they were complaining about the ants. Tsk tsk. Be glad you live in America, cause that shit would be so trivial anywhere else in the world.
other than that I was laughing my ass off when her wife started bitching his ear out about spending that 1.20 on getting those buns :lol
You could definately tell these two would not be able to live with just min wages for more than a year...esp when they were complaining about the ants. Tsk tsk. Be glad you live in America, cause that shit would be so trivial anywhere else in the world.
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