Support NeoGAF

[shantyman]

Neither party is mine - not the jackass or the elephant!

+1 Public Enemy reference

 

[shantyman]

Did anyone more or less stop eating fast food since reading Fast Food Nation?

I did. I ate at Wendy's last march, and that was my first fast food meal in ages.

 

[Zaptruder]

You live in the wrong country if you think that will ever happen.


It also shines a light on why you view things the way you do. Anyone with wealth has stolen thier money, hunh? It's that attitude that perpetuates misery. It's that attitude that makes people stay in minimum wage jobs when they could do much better for themselves.


I used to have contempt for people who think like this, now I just feel sorry for them. Pessimistic, cynical and "oh woe is me". A miserable way to live life.

If I think that will ever happen? Dude... America had a death tax. Hell I don't know it's status right know, but it might still be there, but in a much reduced form.

And swindelled is a strong word. Probably the wrong one for the disparity between incomes and classes I'm trying to convey. On a personal level, each man should find it within himself to do well; but past a certain point, the accumulation of wealth becomes absurd, ridiculous, and an end unto itself.

I can recognize the need to support the entreprenerial spirit; which drives so much innovation and risk taking in society... but it should also be balanced in such a manner that the society can support and sustain such risk taking.

If the rich rely on the masses for their wealth, but leave the masses with no wealth of their own... the whole system kinda collapses you know. Not just for the poor, but for everyone.

But even ignoring that, the minimum wage represents living conditions for people! How is it that working people can be in poverty?

Seriously. America needs to look deeply into ways in which it can solve the economic, market and motivational problems that face minimum wage earners. But money is the key factor... how you spend that money and effort to solve these problems is the key. You can't just throw money at the problem... but the problem definetly needs money to be solved!

Finally, go fuck yourself Toxicadam, implying that I view the world in a 'everyone owes me' kinda way. I'm calling for social reponsibility and suggesting some broad solutions and you attack me on that kinda obtuse angle? Man. That's just ignorant.

 

[ToxicAdam]

If I think that will ever happen? Dude... America had a death tax. Hell I don't know it's status right know, but it might still be there, but in a much reduced form.



But even ignoring that, the minimum wage represents living conditions for people! How is it that working people can be in poverty?

.

Yea, its called an estate tax.

Inheritance tax, also known in some countries outside the United States as a death duty and referred to as an estate tax within the U.S, is a form of tax levied upon the bequest that a person may make in their will to a living person or organisation. If a bequest is made to a charitable organisation, most countries do not apply the tax. The tax is also imposed on other transfers of property made as an incident of the death of the owner, such as a transfer of property from an intestate estate, or the payment of certain life insurance benefits

I believe it is close to 50 percent. Which is pretty hefty in my opinion. Of course, there are ways to skirt around this and only seems to punish those who don't plan properly or die suddenly.


Your arguements would be relevent if we didn't live in a society where our "poverty level" is middle class in most parts of the world.

You can make "poverty" wages, and still own land, have children, and afford many conviences (electric, gas heat, appliances, vacations, free food) that many TRUE poverty stricken people can only dream of.

When you have illegal immigrants risking thier lives to get here, just to work work 6-9 months in America (which will sustain thier families for 3-4 years). It shows that you need to re-assess just what "poverty" truly means.

I drive through inner city neighborhoods all the time during my work day. New HUD homes are being built every summer. Grocery store parking lots are filled up on the 1st and 15th of every month. Redistribution of wealth is alive and well. Trust me on that.

One day, I hope EVERYONE here can make 6 figures for one year of thier life. When you see the amount of taxes that is taken out of your paycheck after working a 60 or 70 hour week ... you will become so angry when some asshole says "Oh the rich, have it easy .. blah blah blah". You will want to shove a fist down thier throat.

 

[reggieandTFE]

Ad hominem attacks are petty and usually don't further the debate, but when whiny, slugs living the good life portray the 90 million working class people as having it easy I tend to not give a shit. When the revolution comes...

I believe it is close to 50 percent. Which is pretty hefty in my opinion. Of course, there are ways to skirt around this and only seems to punish those who don't plan properly or die suddenly.

The estate tax was repealed this year by the Republican congress and President Bush after years of re-framing the debate around "a death tax" by think-tanks and despite the fact that it only affected 2% of Americans.

Your arguements would be relevent if we didn't live in a society where our "poverty level" is middle class in most parts of the world.

You can make "poverty" wages, and still own land, have children, and afford many conviences (electric, gas heat, appliances, vacations, free food) that many TRUE poverty stricken people can only dream of.

BULLSHIT. I'm sure your life in a nice suburb with curvilinear streets and on occasion have to pass through the hood or working class neighborhoods to get around traffic in your Expedition or Navigator, but you're fucking ignorant if you think that people in poverty go on vacations and own land. And you're a fucking asshole if you think that having electricity, "gas heat" and children should only be for those in the middle class!

One day, I hope EVERYONE here can make 6 figures for one year of thier life. When you see the amount of taxes that is taken out of your paycheck after working a 60 or 70 hour week ... you will become so angry when some asshole says "Oh the rich, have it easy .. blah blah blah". You will want to shove a fist down thier throat.

Guess what, my parents are way over six figures and their life isn't easy , but the decisions they're forced to make week to week cannot compare.

Middle Class: Should we buy the HDTV or the new swimming pool this year?
Working Class: Should we pay the creditor coming after us for hospital bills from the Catholic, non-profit institution or buy groceries this week?

 

[Phoenix]

Unless the government starts seriously driving down the price of education for doctors and lawyers they will continually be "overvalued." I don't see how you can overvalue people that are vital to society. If the price is right huh?

Trash collection isn't vital to society? Are we supposed to just crawl around in our own garbage? All professions are vital to the operation of our society, from the guy who is down in the sewers making sure your shit doesn't spread disease and kill us all to the corporate CEO who is trying to keep the corporate machine running.

I'm surprised no one has come in here complaining about the pay of entertainers or teachers yet....

Question: Does Bill Gates not deserve the money he has made?

Irrelevant. A class system has nothing to do with the amount of money you make.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Guess what, my parents are way over six figures and their life isn't easy , but the decisions they're forced to make week to week cannot compare.

Did your parents start making that kind of money once they graduated? They always had those types of "middle class" decisions? Interesting.

And you're a fucking asshole if you think that having electricity, "gas heat" and children should only be for those in the middle class!

Uhh .. where did I say that those things should only be for middle class? I was saying that people in true poverty (around the globe) WISHED they had those things.

It's funny, like I said before, alot of my work (and my wife's work) is in and around an inner city. The majority of people enjoy the same basic comforts you and I do. I drive through at night and see all the lights on in every house. Most equipped with multiple TV's and electric appliances. In fact, I see small boats, camper/rv's and a second car parked in some of the driveways.

When I was a bagger at a grocery store years ago, I would load up the groceries of someone who paid for them with food stamps or WIC. I would then load up thier groceries in a newer camaro or sedan.

"Poverty" statistics are a bit misleading anyways. Especially when a good portion of America works for tips, or report thier own incomes. Because everyone knows that peope are 100% honest when they report thier incomes come tax time.

 

[Manics]

He can do both movies in one shot -- if you're on mimimum wage you should be able to afford McDonalds everyday -- especially with their value meal deals. This guy is onto something.

 

[Zaptruder]

Did your parents start making that kind of money once they graduated? They always had those types of "middle class" decisions? Interesting.


Uhh .. where did I say that those things should only be for middle class? I was saying that people in true poverty (around the globe) WISHED they had those things.

It's funny, like I said before, alot of my work (and my wife's work) is in and around an inner city. The majority of people enjoy the same basic comforts you and I do. I drive through at night and see all the lights on in every house. Most equipped with multiple TV's and electric appliances. In fact, I see small boats, camper/rv's and a second car parked in some of the driveways.

When I was a bagger at a grocery store years ago, I would load up the groceries of someone who paid for them with food stamps or WIC. I would then load up thier groceries in a newer camaro or sedan.

"Poverty" statistics are a bit misleading anyways. Especially when a good portion of America works for tips, or report thier own incomes. Because everyone knows that peope are 100% honest when they report thier incomes come tax time.

Do you understand what you're doing here? You're misdirecting the issue. You point out examples of how they're poorer people, and how they're some people that aren't as poor as they claim to be.

The real issue is that there are people working full hours, two or more jobs, minimum wages, that can barely get by, having to forsake some necessities in favour of others. That these people live in america, that there is a significant percentage of people working as such, living as such on a minimum wage that has depreciated over time.

The issue is also partly how poorly distributed wealth is; the people at the top could fund the minimum wage rise with their own pay raises. Don't you see the disproportion of people that are affected? The total amount of benefit those dollars give is far less in the hands of one or two already rich than it is the hands of the many poor.

Just because the groups you mentions do exist, doesn't nullify, doesn't negate the fact that they're those people in america in need.

There are many problems around the world... but maybe America should take it one step at a time and solve their own problems first.

 

[bob_arctor]

One day, I hope EVERYONE here can make 6 figures for one year of thier life. When you see the amount of taxes that is taken out of your paycheck after working a 60 or 70 hour week ... you will become so angry when some asshole says "Oh the rich, have it easy .. blah blah blah". You will want to shove a fist down their throat.

Quite possibly the silliest thing I've read this week.

 

[Mandark]

The estate tax is probably being repealed. Already passed the House. Guess who's pushing for this?

A major political party in the US (guess which!) has been pushing for years to cut or eliminate both the estate tax and the capital gains tax, while supporting raises in the SS payroll tax. Essentially, pushing a policy that would reward unearned income more than earned income.

Note that this only covers income and payroll taxes. Sales taxes are notoriously regressive.

Guess what. Anyone working for minimum wage would trade with someone making six figures any day of the week, even with a higher marginal rate. Anyone. And there are lots people who make that much but somehow manage to refrain from kvetching. Hell, ask Drinky Crow how he feels.

First you slam people for being all "woe is me" then you ask us to pity people in the top quintile? I could probably think of a less effective use of rhetoric, but nothing comes to mind.

Remember, the big issue in the US class system isn't even doctors and lawyers. It's Paris Hilton, Richard Grasso, George W. Bush, Phillip A. Cooney, and the rest of the ownership class. People who rely on inheritence, cronyism, or unethical use of their position to snag huge chunks of cash, while not having to use their skills to compete in a free market like normal people.

You use a hypothetical example of working 60-70 hours a week to crack six figures. You want people to think that the current system is a meritocracy, and that hard work is the main factor in income and wealth. But you can't back this up through actual facts, so you use anecdotes and hypotheticals. It's no more credible than someone claiming all rich people are "swindlers."

I don't hate capitalism, and I love the idea of competition. That does not mean I won't criticize a system that saves its biggest rewards for ownership rather than work, and that is increasingly distributing the benefits of increased productivity and wealth towards corporate profits and a tiny, privileged fraction of the population.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

I don't think you guys understood me. I wasn't saying that working minimum wage was fine. I'm saying people who work minimum wage work more than one job so that show as inaccurate unless Spurlock and his other are both working. It was a loaded show.

The one trick pony is the 30 days theme. That and Super Size Me was loaded too because who the fuck eats milkshakes along with their value meals? That and he was a condescending prick when he went to my college for a presentation. I liked that movie until I got to see the asshead in person.

 

[ronito]

One day, I hope EVERYONE here can make 6 figures for one year of thier life. When you see the amount of taxes that is taken out of your paycheck after working a 60 or 70 hour week ... you will become so angry when some asshole says "Oh the rich, have it easy .. blah blah blah". You will want to shove a fist down thier throat.

Umm...I've made 6 figures for one year of my life and you know what, I did pay a lot in taxes, but I had it pretty easy. Actually I had it really easy. In fact it wasn't even hard. But here we get to the crux of the problem with your argument. Meet any person that makes a lot of money, and you'll see that they hire people to be their tax consultants so they can pay the smallest amount of tax as possible. As one of my rich friends put it, "Paying taxes is for people who can't afford tax consultants."

Having been on both end of the spectrum from poverty to 6 figures I can honestly say when someone says "Oh the rich have it easy..." I can reply, "Yes, they mostly do." Because in the end I'd much rather have something to eat and a nice place to live and money to better myself and my children and have to pay prohibitive taxes until I hire a tax consultant than have to little to eat, to live in a place that's dangerous, and have no money to better my situation.

Anyone who would want to shove a fist down their throat has never been poor.

 

[Lathentar]

Trash collection isn't vital to society? Are we supposed to just crawl around in our own garbage?

Ummm... garbage men get paid FAR, FAR from minimum wage.

Anyone here ever see Day without a Mexican? It's pretty bad.

 

[Archaix]

I don't think you guys understood me. I wasn't saying that working minimum wage was fine. I'm saying people who work minimum wage work more than one job so that show as inaccurate unless Spurlock and his other are both working. It was a loaded show.

His fiancee did work, and he worked two jobs(for at least part of the month, it was kind of unclear for a bit as to whether he was taking one job with long hours or two jobs)

 

[Manders]

if people are willing to work for the minimum wage, so be it. if they have a problem with it, get some skills and then we'll talk. lol

 

[Phoenix]

Ummm... garbage men get paid FAR, FAR from minimum wage.

Anyone here ever see Day without a Mexican? It's pretty bad.

They also get far far less than a large number of occupations. Are you actually trying to argue that some people deserve to get paid minimum wage?

 

[Drensch]

if they have a problem with it, get some skills and then we'll talk. lol

Sure, because they're free to everyone.

 

[Dilbert]

I wasn't saying that working minimum wage was fine. I'm saying people who work minimum wage work more than one job so that show as inaccurate unless Spurlock and his other are both working.

If you have to work more than one job just to make ends meet...SOMETHING is fucked in that equation.

That and he was a condescending prick when he went to my college for a presentation. I liked that movie until I got to see the asshead in person.

The film is a separate entity from its creator. The fact that you can't separate the two is telling.

 

[Lathentar]

They also get far far less than a large number of occupations. Are you actually trying to argue that some people deserve to get paid minimum wage?

Garbage men don't require the education that a doctor or lawyer needs, obviously they're going to be paid less.

There are jobs that deserve minimum wage.

 

[fart]

garbage men get paid really good money. seriously, look it up.

oh, sorry, i guess this was covered. that's what i get for not reading the thread.

the problem with a variety of numbers is that out of any pool of numbers, there will always be a minimum. however, that doesn't mean that any job deserves that minimum.

in theory, people are paid for their labor because of a need on the part of the employer. i can't see how you can rationalize that some needs are minima vs. other needs. clearly, the highly specialized skills of the doctor are needed in society, but without the hospital janitor, the work of the doctor is futile. people are paid minimum wage not because they deserve it, but because the pool of people who can do their work is very large. it's fucking ridiculous to buy into the self-contradictory myth of the free market meritocracy and good evidence that you probably have not worked a day in your life.

 

[Ryo]

Plus people with minimum wage have more than one job.

I do think there should be an increase of wage to at or above $7

I bet a thousand bux that this guy doesn't have children. Anyone with children knows that being at work is not what you want to do. Spending more time with you children is what you want. Working ONE full time job can be strainful on the amount of time you can see your kids. Working TWO jobs must be a real bitch.

Read this quote again.. It sums up alot of f*ckin ignorance in just two sentences

Plus people with minimum wage have more than one job.

I do think there should be an increase of wage to at or above $7

 

[J2 Cool]

I want 13 episodes a year, or I'm not watching.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

The film is a separate entity from its creator. The fact that you can't separate the two is telling.

Your initial reaction was the same as mine. Dismissing a product because you dislike the creator is silly; liking or disliking the creator is tertiary to the actual product. However, when you consider how much time Spurlock spends in front of the camera -- how much the movie centres around his experiences, his reactions, and his communicably vivacious persona -- it's acceptable to find Supersize Me bad if you dislike Spurlock because Spurlock is a big part of the movie. There are exceptions to rules, and I believe this is one of them.

I bet a thousand bux that this guy doesn't have children. Anyone with children knows that being at work is not what you want to do. Spending more time with you children is what you want. Working ONE full time job can be strainful on the amount of time you can see your kids. Working TWO jobs must be a real bitch.

Read this quote again.. It sums up alot of f*ckin ignorance in just two sentences

Bowling for Columbine, while entertaining, did a lot of things wrong. However, the section it covered on that 6 year old who shot another classmate was particularly enlightening to the reality many people face and the consequences that reality has on the family and the community.

When people have to work several jobs that add up to well over full time hours just to get by, something's wrong. I'm not sure what the solution to the problem should be -- all I know is that THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME KIND OF A SOLUTION. If raising minimum wage is seen as a proper solution, then so be it. If other programs that encourage education through subsidies is the solution, then so be it. It's pretty disheartening when people nochalantly talk about the vicious cycle of poverty millions face without really giving a shit about it.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Read this quote again.. It sums up alot of f*ckin ignorance in just two sentences

::Swish::

Anyone who would want to shove a fist down their throat has never been poor.

I was poor and although its not shoving a fist down your throat, its like "Whats the fucking point of working more if I don't get rewarded for it?" This is why socialism and communism will always be a failure. There's no real incentive to work hard if there's no change in economic outcome.

The film is a separate entity from its creator. The fact that you can't separate the two is telling.

Both suck ass: Spurlock and Super Size Me. SSM was like Fast Food Nation's red headed bastard stepchild.

Fast Food Nation is the read for the industry. It holds no punches and unlike SSM, isn't a loaded movie. To explain loaded, it means that it wasn't 100% accurate. Nobody gets a yogurt and a milkshake along with their meal. Some of the worst foods was the unnecessary ones.

 

[maharg]

Raising the min wage can make most people worst off, companies have to make up for paying their lowest employees more, so they lower the wages of the average worker.

Eh, it's pretty tough to actually 'lower the wages of the average worker'. They can only really do that with people they hire new after the fact, and if the labour pool in question is supply driven, it doesn't really matter what they want to pay them.

There are real negative impacts to raising a minimum wage. The real tendency would be more like not hiring as many minimum wage workers while putting more work on existing employees. If anything, this will free up more money to go to middle and upper jobs, though probably not enough to make up for the increase in workload.

However, it's always a balance thing. A minimum wage that's too low leads to exploitation (including the notion that working more than 40hrs/wk via multiple jobs is a normal or even good thing *cough*), while one that's too high can severely reduce the demand for lower wage workers causing a significant change in unemployment.

At the very least though, minimum wage should attempt to track inflation. When minimum wage does not do so, it is effectively as if it is *declining*. According to this, people who work minimum wage now have significantly less buying power than they did in 1979, which really hurts them.

 

[Phoenix]

Garbage men don't require the education that a doctor or lawyer needs, obviously they're going to be paid less.

There are jobs that deserve minimum wage.

Okay, list a few jobs that deserve the minimum wage. Its just beyond me that people think that some people deserve a wage so low that it has to be mandated by the state in order for it to be legal.

The problem is that you believe that education should dictate salary. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that way.

 

[maharg]

Really the idea that doctors and lawyers deserve higher pay because their education was more expensive is just somewhat backwards. Highly skilled doctors and lawyers are always in high demand (partly because unskilled doctors and lawyers are pretty much illegal, but this is not something people tend to complain about). Because there's high demand for those sorts of services, there is high demand for that sort of education. Because there is high demand for that sort of education, and that sort of education is expensive and difficult, which constrains supply, it is expensive.

Believe it or not, even education is a victim of supply and demand logic.

 

[MC Safety]

Okay, list a few jobs that deserve the minimum wage. Its just beyond me that people think that some people deserve a wage so low that it has to be mandated by the state in order for it to be legal.

The problem is that you believe that education should dictate salary. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that way.

Um. I'm not sure it's about specific careers, but rather the need for a minimum wage to keep employers from exploiting unskilled workers. With a large pool of qualified applicants and a large demand for unskilled positions, employers could be perpetually reducing wages, forcing people to work excessive hours, and using the wealth of applicants for each job as a weapon against employees. Minimum wage keeps employers in check and (in theory) provides a livable wage.

As I've said before, minimum wage is meant to be an introduction to the working world, not the first AND last stop.

 

[Lathentar]

Okay, list a few jobs that deserve the minimum wage. Its just beyond me that people think that some people deserve a wage so low that it has to be mandated by the state in order for it to be legal.

The problem is that you believe that education should dictate salary. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that way.

Jobs that have such a huge pool of workers that anyone is qualified to fulfill the position with little to no training will be stuck with minimum wage. Anyone 16 years and up that I run into on the street has the training to work at say McDonalds.

To repeat what was stated before... it's not just education, but demand for people with that education.

Also, education is usually a pretty good indicator of salary.

Level of Education         Median Salary

High School                41,000

Some College               40,000

Associates Degree          46,225

B.A. Degree                55,000

Post-Graduate Studies      60,000

Ph.D. Degree               70,000

http://www.evaluationengineering.com/archive/articles/0496sal.htm

 

[fart]

you were tasked with presenting jobs that DESERVED minimum wage.

that's it, i'm out of these threads. i mean it this time, REALLY.

 

[XMonkey]

Nickel and Dimed has some amazing stories and cold hard facts at the end, but Ehrenreich strikes me as the epitome of ivory tower liberal elite.

Agreed. I liked the statistics and experiences presented, but I couldn't stand Ehrenreich's commentary on it all.