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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

Yoritomo

Member
That's correct by the way. It's because the modern interpretation of the word of wisdom says so. The folk doctrine of a caffeine ban is an effort to correlate the ban on tea and coffee.

I need to start collecting folk doctrine. It's more fun than the bland, specious, modern official doctrines of the church on almost every subject.

I'll start doing that after my lunch date with the 3 Nephites.
 

Yoritomo

Member
Now this is fascinating

John Dehlin did an interview with Tom Philips for his mormonstories website podcast.

Tom Philips, for those that don't know was a friend of Elder Holland and further had his calling and election made sure by receiving the second anointing. Tom then grew disillusioned with the church and later left.

The interview goes into detail about the second anointing and what it is and what it entails and all that. REALLY interesting stuff.

After the interview was over Dehlin decided not to publish it for fear that it would get him excommunicated (and rightly so, most mormons don't know that a second anointing exists, let alone the details of it). But Tom posted it on his website anyway.

The interview is really long (like 4 hours) and goes into some deep stuff. If there's interest I'll do a tl;dr later.

Here's the link:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tempstash/TomPhillips-Unedited.mp3

Wow, I'm 3 hours in. The amount of passion and the hard stance Tom takes is amazing. He's my hero. I don't have an inkling of the bravery nor did I ever have even an ounce of the belief that he had. Sorry I was on the verge of tearing up at his impassioned response to Elder Holland's letter to him and just had to share.
 

ronito

Member
We have a "Family Home Evening" of sorts. We also save a 2+ year supply of food and water which we hope to expand in our next house.
FHE I get. I still think it's important.

But 2+ years of food and water? that's like 360 gallons per person that's more than a ton of water per person. Sorry dude that's a little crazy. I can see the use, but where would you keep it all?

24, unmarried and stuck in Rexburg? I weep for you.
Indeed. That's why I love Cor so much. Not only is he a cool dude. He's in an unenviable position.

Wow, I'm 3 hours in. The amount of passion and the hard stance Tom takes is amazing. He's my hero. I don't have an inkling of the bravery nor did I ever have even an ounce of the belief that he had. Sorry I was on the verge of tearing up at his impassioned response to Elder Holland's letter to him and just had to share.

I don't think I'd say he's a hero. In a way I admire his passion for belief. But at the same time I think he's taken it way too far. Like when he tells his wife "Why would you want to read a work of fiction?" Come on dude, first off, plenty of people read tons of fiction. Second have some damned respect. It's one thing to point out issues and facts its' another to be smug about them or let them ruin you.

I completely get why though. I mean it's like a CEO, you don't get to be a CEO if you think "$5 Million is good enough." You only get to be a CEO if you think "$5 million? Why not 10? 10? Why not 20?!" Likewise I think that you can't get to be that high up in the church unless you're terribly serious in your belief (and I mean more than being active and doing your calling I mean your belief has to consume you). So it stands to reason that disbelief would be just as strong if not stronger, as you'll have anger and bitterness to back it up.

I actually feel sorry for him more than I admire him.
 

CorvoSol

Member
24, unmarried and stuck in Rexburg? I weep for you.

This is me next week, hahaha. Turned 24 today.

So, having given a moment's thought to Ronito's comments about secrets, I have to say it's actually something I enjoy; knowing that there's still stuff about the Church that I don't know and may never know. It makes it all the more interesting and special when I DO find something out, and it serves to keep me from acting like a know-it-all, which I occasionally do.

Anyway, Rexburg beckons. Tomorrow is my last day in the ever-green paradise that is my home, then it's back to the sandbox to start workin' my tail off for that degree. To say I am anxious is an understatement, I think.
 

ronito

Member
This is me next week, hahaha. Turned 24 today.

So, having given a moment's thought to Ronito's comments about secrets, I have to say it's actually something I enjoy; knowing that there's still stuff about the Church that I don't know and may never know. It makes it all the more interesting and special when I DO find something out, and it serves to keep me from acting like a know-it-all, which I occasionally do.

Anyway, Rexburg beckons. Tomorrow is my last day in the ever-green paradise that is my home, then it's back to the sandbox to start workin' my tail off for that degree. To say I am anxious is an understatement, I think.
That's what I mean, don't deny the very nature of it, embrace it. Like when mormons are always like "We're christian just like you!" to evangelicals. I'm like, "No, no you're not." And that's ok, I actually liked that about the church why try to be something you're not?

Is this where I sign up?
Sign up for what?
 
FHE I get. I still think it's important.

But 2+ years of food and water? that's like 360 gallons per person that's more than a ton of water per person. Sorry dude that's a little crazy. I can see the use, but where would you keep it all?

A hand pump for an existing well and water filtration is all you need. The food just builds up over time. Buy on sale in bulk at various sales several times a year and the next thing you know you have a grocery store in your basement.
 
We have a "Family Home Evening" of sorts. We also save a 2+ year supply of food and water which we hope to expand in our next house.

So basically, a home dinner/evening every week or so?
That doesn't sound too bad.

What are the roots to the food/water supply?
Is that some sort of Armageddon preparation thing?
 
So basically, a home dinner/evening every week or so?
That doesn't sound too bad.

What are the roots to the food/water supply?
Is that some sort of Armageddon preparation thing?

FHE goes a little deeper in that. It's a night where one person makes dinner, another makes desert, and a thrid plans an activity for the whole family. It generally takes the majority of the evening. You can do anything you want (generally) during the week, but everyone in the family commits to time for that single night a week (ours is Sunday night right now). We eat breakfast every morning together, but I work second shift right now so dinner is out mon-fri. When I switch to first shift next year, we'll change things up.

I believe that storing food and water has it's roots in an "end of days" scenerio but has since been spun into a common sense/independent thing. All of my extended Mormon family have a similar supply and they all grow/can/freeze a large amount of food themselves every year. Like most Mormon things, it was an opportunity for the entire extended family or even the whole church congregation to get together and do something. One year I recall creating and freezing several thousand apple pies at the church in a production line of sorts. I also remember when I was in my youth group I was explained my duties in the event of a crisis. The Mormon disaster plan was pretty extensive, covering everything from distribution of food/supplies (Mormons first!) to how to deal with dead bodies. Every single person in the church had a job, even the kids. I would have been on sentry duty, if I recall, but I was fascinated with the more gruesome duties at the time.

While these may seem like common sense things, no one else I know does any of this and the roots for me doing them are strictly due to my Mormon upbringing.
 
Please excuse the bump, but I have a question for Mormon/ex Mormon gaf... For my college history class I have to write a term paper on westward expansion era US. I chose the Mormon westward migration as my topic. I was wondering if anyone could point me to some books that would be acceptable to cite from (Brigham Young biography or something). Or if there is a priesthood holder person I could interview to cite as a source. Or would it be acceptable/worthwhile to visit my local LDS house of worship to interview high ranking/historically educated Mormons.

Also if anyone could recommend a topic specifically in the Mormom history I could focus on it would be greatly appreciated. As it stands I am leaning toward writing about how the enaction of small scale socialism led to the proliferation of the LDS community
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Please excuse the bump, but I have a question for Mormon/ex Mormon gaf... For my college history class I have to write a term paper on westward expansion era US. I chose the Mormon westward migration as my topic. I was wondering if anyone could point me to some books that would be acceptable to cite from (Brigham Young biography or something). Or if there is a priesthood holder person I could interview to cite as a source. Or would it be acceptable/worthwhile to visit my local LDS house of worship to interview high ranking/historically educated Mormons.

Also if anyone could recommend a topic specifically in the Mormom history I could focus on it would be greatly appreciated. As it stands I am leaning toward writing about how the enaction of small scale socialism led to the proliferation of the LDS community
Church history has become heavily mythologized so if you want an accurate telling then church sources may not be entirely reliable or even consistent. Other historians and sources have tackled the issue though. I'm pretty sure "Mormon America" by the Ostlings has a section on the move west, and the book is pretty fair overall. Definitely look into "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith" as it is a really good account of church history through the perspective of the founder's wife. She did not move west with everyone else but it'll help with the period leading to it.

Be wary of "One Nation Under Gods", as the author is sloppy at fact checking and probably not interested in it to begin with.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Indeed. That's why I love Cor so much. Not only is he a cool dude. He's in an unenviable position.

D'awwww. And I wouldn't say my position is entirely unenviable. Many poorer people would certainly envy the fact that I'm going to a college and have a roof over my head.

Please excuse the bump, but I have a question for Mormon/ex Mormon gaf... For my college history class I have to write a term paper on westward expansion era US. I chose the Mormon westward migration as my topic. I was wondering if anyone could point me to some books that would be acceptable to cite from (Brigham Young biography or something). Or if there is a priesthood holder person I could interview to cite as a source. Or would it be acceptable/worthwhile to visit my local LDS house of worship to interview high ranking/historically educated Mormons.

Also if anyone could recommend a topic specifically in the Mormom history I could focus on it would be greatly appreciated. As it stands I am leaning toward writing about how the enaction of small scale socialism led to the proliferation of the LDS community

PBS did a great documentary called The Mormons awhile back. I consider that a very straightforward and fair place to start.

That's what I mean, don't deny the very nature of it, embrace it. Like when mormons are always like "We're christian just like you!" to evangelicals. I'm like, "No, no you're not." And that's ok, I actually liked that about the church why try to be something you're not?

To be fair, I do detest being told by others what I believe. I find it absurd and frankly rude of people outside the Church to insist I'm not Christian or that I sacrifice goats when they've never so much as sat down with a Mormon or set foot in a Mormon church. I also dislike the assertion that Mormonism is a cult, because, much as the people who attempt to assuage my vehement disagreement might insist that from a dictionary's viewpoint that's fair and true, we all know that using the term cult is derogatory, and is being used in some small, subtle way to discredit the beliefs of others, which I don't like seeing people do period.

That said, I am who I am. On my mission I finally felt like I understood who I was and where I belonged. I liked that sense of purpose and community and brotherhood, and from that sprang other experiences I wouldn't trade for the world. I embrace the weirdness, because I have always been taught to be weird anyway. I embrace that there are things about Church history which I'll not understand while on this mortal history, and that there are things the Church does with which I do not agree. I accept that there will be accusations of cognitive dissonance and such, but really, what do I care? I'm happy with who I am, and I know what I believe. As a missionary I never worried if others chose to have different beliefs than those of the Church, but I have always been saddened by people who spend their time actively trying to tear down others.

I'm back in the BURG now, taking classes and sweating bullets. Best part about being back here is that they sell Guarana at Broulim's. Can't. Get. Enough. But that's more for Brazil-GAF.


FUN FACT because you were all discussing the WoW a bit back: The Missionary Manual Preach My Gospel issued to Elders in Brazil and Portugal specifies "Tea" as "Black Tea". No one has ever really explained this well enough, but I tend to defer to the Brazilian manual because reasons. I don't really drink enough tea for this to matter.
 
D'awwww. And I wouldn't say my position is entirely unenviable. Many poorer people would certainly envy the fact that I'm going to a college and have a roof over my head.



PBS did a great documentary called The Mormons awhile back. I consider that a very straightforward and fair place to start.

I just found out that BYU-I has lower tuition costs than BYU-Provo. Must. Not. Envy.

BTW, anyone else catch the CES fireside with Elder Holland yesterday?

That said, I am who I am. On my mission I finally felt like I understood who I was and where I belonged. I liked that sense of purpose and community and brotherhood, and from that sprang other experiences I wouldn't trade for the world. I embrace the weirdness, because I have always been taught to be weird anyway. I embrace that there are things about Church history which I'll not understand while on this mortal history, and that there are things the Church does with which I do not agree. I accept that there will be accusations of cognitive dissonance and such, but really, what do I care? I'm happy with who I am, and I know what I believe. As a missionary I never worried if others chose to have different beliefs than those of the Church, but I have always been saddened by people who spend their time actively trying to tear down others.

*Bro-fist*

I'm back in the BURG now, taking classes and sweating bullets. Best part about being back here is that they sell Guarana at Broulim's. Can't. Get. Enough. But that's more for Brazil-GAF.

Must. Not. Envy.
 

ronito

Member
While it doesn't cover westward expansion, "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling" is a pretty well put together look at the origins of the Church and its first leader (Disclaimer: though an emeritus professor at Columbia University the author is LDS).
Man, that is a pretty good book but it managed to piss everyone off.
The apologetics/staunch mormons are like "Why did he have to get into the polygamy stuff? And all that other stuff" I've even heard some people call it "anti"

Then for those that aren't mormon are like "he painted the prettiest picture possible about polygamy and glossed over the contraversial stuff."

Poor Bushman.
To be fair, I do detest being told by others what I believe. I find it absurd and frankly rude of people outside the Church to insist I'm not Christian or that I sacrifice goats when they've never so much as sat down with a Mormon or set foot in a Mormon church. I also dislike the assertion that Mormonism is a cult, because, much as the people who attempt to assuage my vehement disagreement might insist that from a dictionary's viewpoint that's fair and true, we all know that using the term cult is derogatory, and is being used in some small, subtle way to discredit the beliefs of others, which I don't like seeing people do period.

That said, I am who I am. On my mission I finally felt like I understood who I was and where I belonged. I liked that sense of purpose and community and brotherhood, and from that sprang other experiences I wouldn't trade for the world. I embrace the weirdness, because I have always been taught to be weird anyway. I embrace that there are things about Church history which I'll not understand while on this mortal history, and that there are things the Church does with which I do not agree. I accept that there will be accusations of cognitive dissonance and such, but really, what do I care? I'm happy with who I am, and I know what I believe. As a missionary I never worried if others chose to have different beliefs than those of the Church, but I have always been saddened by people who spend their time actively trying to tear down others.
I get it, but I was trying to convey that the fact that evangelicals say mormons aren't christian the way they are is a good thing and it was something to be embraced. Evangelicals think they can just throw their hands up and say "I'm saved" and it'll be so.
That's not mormon. They believe that when you die that's the end of your progression. That's not mormon. And that's ok and good
 

Yoritomo

Member
Mormons don't accept FLDS as mormons in the same manner. Their beliefs aren't mainstream, yet I'm sure the priesthood lineage, belief in the book or mormon, use of all the saving ordinances qualifies them as such.

They're not members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints but they are mormon. When your church fundamentally says that everyone else got it wrong, but then wants to be in the same tent things can get a little bitter.

Just name drop Warren Jeffs as a mormon around members of the TCOJCOLDS and they'll be just as fast to denounce Jeffs as not a mormon as evangelicals are to denounce mormons as not christian.
 

ronito

Member
Saw this today and it got a hearty lol
3qvmgm.jpg
 

ronito

Member
So there's drama in the mormon blogosphere!

It looks like the editor of mormonthink a site that featured both Mormon and non-mormon writers talking about doctrinal matters and history.

So it seems they had written some article that the church didn't like.

So now the editor is being ex-communicated and the content's been taken down. Here's a write up of what's going on:

By MormonThinker (editor on MormonThink.com)

First, I am not speaking for all MT editors in this post. Other editors also have access to this account and may edit this post as needed.

Many are asking what is happening. Over the course of the 8 years MormonThink.com has been an online presence, there have been various levels of pressure exerted by LDS leaders on active, semi-active and less active members who contribute and edit articles posted on MT.

One example happened earlier this year when the past chief editor who'd remained completely anonymous due to still-attending with TBM family and close friends, received significant pressure from local ward & stake leaders to remove MT content or take the site down entirely.

This editor initially discussed MT content with his leaders, about our goal of promoting true church history over commonly-held beliefs and even how he was involved. He was willing to work with his stake president’s objections and he convinced the MT editorial board to take down the temple section as it greatly bothered some members. He also continued asking his stake president what was incorrect with the site. He offered to change it but his leader would never answer specifics, just labeling the site as ‘anti-Mormon’, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-church leadership. Ultimately, he decided to give up his editing duties to appease the church and turn them over to me, the current managing editor.

After this, however, with the temple material still unpublished they called him to disciplinary council for heresy, or as they call it these days ‘conduct unbecoming a member of the church’. Seeing the futility of attending such a pre-determined event, as the Stake President refused to discuss the material on the site and only wanted to focus on his involvement which he already determined was unacceptable, he quietly resigned. It is still a very private matter.

As new managing editor, I wrote articles about the beliefs of Mitt Romney, about parallels between his hiding financial information and the church refusing to disclose theirs, about the political history of the LDS church and how one might predict its manner of influence if Mitt were elected. I had returned to attending at church, where I had never met the local leadership, and I began a blog chronicling events around my return.

Last Sunday, after Sacrament, I was taken to the Stake President's office and "interviewed" for 45 minutes by the three presidents and bishop. It was unclear how they found me just then, but other facts have come to light on this. They were particularly upset at us hiding our full identities and the messages recently posted at MT and on the blog. At the end, I was given a letter summoning me to disciplinary council for apostasy.

At this time, I have been contacted by the media, but no firm decision has been made at this moment about any action there.

I am trying to work with LDS leaders to open a dialogue about what at MT is factually, doctrinally and historically incorrect. We feel that working with the LDS church authorities, we can make an honest attempt to discuss openly issues of church history and policies that trouble many active members. Our philosophy is to present both sides accurately as possibly and let each member decide with full agency and free will what they believe.

As a concession, the blog was pulled off, the temple material rescinded and I am trying to work with the leaders to correct any MT content that might be inaccurate, as well as forestall action against me at church, since it can be a sensitive family issue for me as well.

We will try to keep you all informed as we can.

Thanks everyone for your support.
 

Yoritomo

Member
So there's drama in the mormon blogosphere!

It looks like the editor of mormonthink a site that featured both Mormon and non-mormon writers talking about doctrinal matters and history.

So it seems they had written some article that the church didn't like.

So now the editor is being ex-communicated and the content's been taken down. Here's a write up of what's going on:

What is it about getting excommunicated in September for open discussion of church history and doctrinal beliefs?
 
Sadly, when I read about this level of backroom politics and threats my first reaction was "What took 'em so long?". Free agency my ass. I am frustrated for them. Tye lack of details from the church would drive me up the wall.

So did Scientoloy take a que from Mormons or are Mormons taking a que from them?! The more I understand about Scientilogy the more I see Mormon influences.
 

ronito

Member
I can sort of understand it.
But really I'd think if I were in charge I'd take the tact of "People are going to post this anyway. Better to have it be on a site with some mormons so they can explain rather than having always be the anti-mormons that do it."
 

CorvoSol

Member
I just found out that BYU-I has lower tuition costs than BYU-Provo. Must. Not. Envy.

BTW, anyone else catch the CES fireside with Elder Holland yesterday?

*Bro-fist*

Must. Not. Envy.

You wanna talk envy, they tell me that the BYU Provo girls are easier, which, given the absolutely frigid way some of the BYUI girls can be, just means "possible" rather than "Dude, don't even bother." Freakin' drives me insane the way some girls act here.

I get it, but I was trying to convey that the fact that evangelicals say mormons aren't christian the way they are is a good thing and it was something to be embraced. Evangelicals think they can just throw their hands up and say "I'm saved" and it'll be so.
That's not mormon. They believe that when you die that's the end of your progression. That's not mormon. And that's ok and good

No, I understand, I just wanted to make my point was all. I don't mind not being considered "Christian" by the evangelical crowd, but it does ruffle my feathers when they take and say I don't worship Christ.

So, Mo/ExMo GAF, I thought I would share how embarrassed I was to see a confederate flag or two on campus this week. Some of us try very hard to shake off the notion that Mormonism is racist or that the racism that existed in the Church is still around today, and this kind of stuff just really disappoints me. There are those of us in the Church who honestly are trying and hoping for reform from within (which, I honestly believe is true of almost all major religions) and to see knuckle heads flying the Confederate flag as they drive around campus or on the back of their laptops or hanging in their rooms is just a real disappointment to me. I believe in the Church, and I believe in her members, and sometimes it's hard being let down.

Granted that I've my own failings and ought not to be too harsh on others for theirs, it's still really stupid.

IN OTHER NEWS, I was made FHE dad by surprise! So my poor, 18 year old roomie was all "So you and the FHE mom, huh?" And I was, "Dude, no, dude." Also: Why are the most attractive girls all 18? Like, I don't WANT to actively be that RM who snipes the 18 year old, but I'll admit that there is a, how do I say this without sounding completely like a jerk? There is a disparity there.

The worst women though are the ones who constantly whine about the men who snatch up the 18 year olds. I'm sorry, but the days of plural marriage are a bygone thing, sister, i.e. I only get one woman and I'm stuck with her for like, ever, so she better be, as my Mission President's wife so eloquently put it, "not someone I have to roll over every morning and say "Woman, bear me thy testimony," to."

And I'm making light of this, which is terrible because I really do find the concept of Eternal families and eternal marriage to be one of the most beautiful teachings of the Church and one of the strong points of my testimony, but MAN, it just irks me to no end the way some women in the Church act.

Also: when they use their gender as an excuse. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you cannot do anything for yourself.
 

ronito

Member
So, Mo/ExMo GAF, I thought I would share how embarrassed I was to see a confederate flag or two on campus this week. Some of us try very hard to shake off the notion that Mormonism is racist or that the racism that existed in the Church is still around today, and this kind of stuff just really disappoints me. There are those of us in the Church who honestly are trying and hoping for reform from within (which, I honestly believe is true of almost all major religions) and to see knuckle heads flying the Confederate flag as they drive around campus or on the back of their laptops or hanging in their rooms is just a real disappointment to me. I believe in the Church, and I believe in her members, and sometimes it's hard being let down.
I do think that there's an overall thing with the church and strong evangelical conservatism. It started with Ezra Taft Benson reading Birch from the pulpit and dragging the church far to the right. Then Hinckley did his best to make the church more mainstream. I think those two things came together to make certain sections of the church way into a more evangelical christian base with the "screw the poor and the coloreds." thing. Sorta weird in that it's the least like Christ you could be.

IN OTHER NEWS, I was made FHE dad by surprise! So my poor, 18 year old roomie was all "So you and the FHE mom, huh?" And I was, "Dude, no, dude." Also: Why are the most attractive girls all 18? Like, I don't WANT to actively be that RM who snipes the 18 year old, but I'll admit that there is a, how do I say this without sounding completely like a jerk? There is a disparity there.

The worst women though are the ones who constantly whine about the men who snatch up the 18 year olds. I'm sorry, but the days of plural marriage are a bygone thing, sister, i.e. I only get one woman and I'm stuck with her for like, ever, so she better be, as my Mission President's wife so eloquently put it, "not someone I have to roll over every morning and say "Woman, bear me thy testimony," to."

And I'm making light of this, which is terrible because I really do find the concept of Eternal families and eternal marriage to be one of the most beautiful teachings of the Church and one of the strong points of my testimony, but MAN, it just irks me to no end the way some women in the Church act.

Also: when they use their gender as an excuse. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you cannot do anything for yourself.
I've noticed that a lot of mormon women in the "mormon corridor" tend to exhibit a sense of learned helplessness. They expect to be taken care of. Not all of them but if you're pretty and in Utah/Idaho I've seen plenty of younger girls who essentially think the hardest they'll have it is to pick the right husband to support them. Sorta like the future trophy wives you see in richy-rich areas.

I'll admit that it is plenty better than what I experienced in the 90s where I'd date women and they were like "I could never be serious about you because you're a music major and I need someone who can support me." and they'd go out and marry bankers and such. I thought that was pretty par for course until I got out the 'bubble' and noticed that women didn't expect someone to support them, they were like "I can support my own damn self".

Now it's better, far better than it was, but there's still plenty of the whole "support me!" women in the corridor. I feel ya man.
 
My dealings with Mormon females (teens, mind you) is as different from your experience as possible. Granted, I am from Michigan and perhaps things are a bit more relaxed here. Many of the youth were drafted because their parents became members. There wasn't a lot of 3rd, 4th, 5th , ect. "hardcore" mormons in my ward. I do seem to remember that attitude at stake gatherings from the females in the greater area though.

I had one girl imparticular from my ward who thought we were destined to be together forever basically because we were both Mormons. She was pretty hot too. I never had sex with her because she was a Mormon too so I had a weird complex about it. Meanwhile I was screwing everything that wasn't nailed down. She confessed to me years later that it really hurt her feelings that I never had sex with her because she knew I was sexually active. She threw herself at me on multiple occassions but I just couldn't do it. She took it as a deep form of rejection and apparently it compounded some of her issues that she had to sort through during her early 20's. Anyway, she was one of my friends on facebook before I stopped using that service and has since fallen very far from the church, although she refuses to have her name officially withdrawn from the church records. That boggles my mind.
 

CorvoSol

Member
It's just here, I think. Something I try to get people to realize is that the Church is, I dunno, not as homogenized as people think? I dunno how best to put it, but the Church is very different in very different areas of the world. In Brazil, the members of the Church are as different as possible from here, I think. Maybe it's because so many of them are 1st or second generation, but I don't think so. It was actually something that struck me as beautiful about the Church on my mission: that so many people who were so completely different from each other could still unite together for a common purpose and see each other as equals.

It's part of one of the things I struggled with, too, because our Mission President would constantly stress that there was One Church, not Two, because occasionally as a missionary it feels that way, that there's the Mission, which runs the way it should, where corruption is visible, punishable, and forgiven on the grounds of penitence, and then there's the Church, which sometimes you're just aghast that such an organization can use Christ's name and not be burned to the ground.

Which is to say, I think I can be forgiving of a great deal of things, but I find that I am occasionally too hard on members of the Church. And I struggle a great deal with not being judgmental. Which is part of why I post in this thread; it helps me to confront something I would otherwise rather turn a blind eye to, and I think that when we face the things we would rather not of our own accord it helps us to become fairer, better people.

And I hope that none of that sounds condescending to any of you, because you really are great people and I'd hate to offend you with my personal failings.

That said, I cannot wait for the election to be over, because really, I'm tired of seeing people associate Romney's politics with all Mormons everywhere. I guess it's natural to be sad to hear people badmouth my religion, and I don't deny them the right, but it kinda whomps all the same.

Oh! And I went to the BR association tonight on campus. Our new president is a freakin' gata.
 

ronito

Member
I love it.
Corvo's like "I like hanging with Ronito, it helps me not be so condescending to stupid people."

Love ya man.

It's funny that you bring up the two church thing because my reply to Eskimo was gonna be that there were two churches. One in the mormon corridor (utah/idaho) and one for the rest.
And the experiences in the two are completely different, at least when it comes to people.
 

ronito

Member
Looks like that mormonthink story is going national.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/21/mormons-want-to-excommunicate-romney-critic.html

David Twede, 47, a scientist, novelist, and fifth-generation Mormon, is managing editor of MormonThink.com, an online magazine produced largely by members of the Mormon Church that welcomes scholarly debate about the religion’s history from both critics and true believers.

A Mormon in good standing, Twede has never been disciplined by Latter Day Saints leadership. But it now appears his days as a Mormon may be numbered because of a series of articles he wrote this past week that were critical of Mitt Romney.

On Sunday, Twede says his bishop, stake president, and two church executives brought him into Florida Mormon church offices in Orlando and interrogated him for nearly an hour about his writings, telling him, "Cease and desist, Brother Twede."

Mormon leaders have scheduled an excommunication "for apostasy" on Sept. 30. A spokesman for the church told The Daily Beast that the church would not be commenting for this story.

In an exclusive interview with The Daily Beast, Twede says that during the interrogation he felt “attacked, cornered, and very anxious."

The four church leaders verbally chastised him, he says, for hiding his identity on MormonThink and his personal blog in order to avoid discipline. Twede, who writes using only his first name, says they kept asking him why he didn’t identify himself online if he had nothing to hide.

“I told them I hide my name precisely because of things like this,” he says. “I said, ‘Look how fast you got to me.’ I know a lot of members don’t want their life disturbed. In the Mormon church, if you’re not part of the uniform group, you are ostracized.”

Twede asked church leaders how they came up with his name so fast after posting the articles. They wouldn't tell him, but he says he’s since been told by a church insider that a contributor to the pro-Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, many of whose members are professors at Brigham Young University, alerted church officials in Salt Lake City, who apparently informed his local ecclesiastical leaders.

“When they interrogated me, they denied that they were on a witch hunt, but they kept asking me, ‘Who are the other individuals you work with on MormonThink?’” he says. “They continued demanding that I tell them. But I didn’t.”

Twede's situation was first publicly disclosed this week on an ex-Mormon online discussion site by Steve Benson, the Pulitzer Prize–winning editorial cartoonist for The Arizona Republic and grandson of former secretary of agriculture and Mormon prophet Ezra Taft Benson.

Benson, who left Mormonism in 1993, the same year he won the Pulitzer, is now a vocal critic of the church and is an active voice on the ex-Mormon sites.

“What you’re seeing with David is not atypical of what the church has done in the past, where local leadership becomes focused on riding into battle under the flag ‘out damn spot’ and ridding itself or perceived apostates,” Benson tells The Daily Beast. “I was under this kind of investigation when I left in '93. I didn’t want to give them the satisfaction of an excommunication. I no longer wanted to be a member of that organization.”

In his role as managing editor of MormonThink, Twede wrote an article about Romney last month titled “The God of Mitt Romney: Why Do Some Claim He’s Not Christian?”

Then last week he posted several stories about the political history of LDS and how the church may or may not influence Romney, as well as a few blog posts that were tongue-in-cheek takes on the church.
And that was apparently all it took for church leaders to intervene.

“When they brought me into the office, they told me they were upset by the way I had portrayed myself,” he says. “They didn't like that I was writing a blog critical of the church, and they were upset by the fact that I was discussing the temple, which is connected to Mitt Romney in my article. I revealed things about the temple, and secrecy, and other things that they just don’t want anyone to talk about.”

“The public should be aware of what is happening within the walls of the Mormon church to those that dissent during this ‘Mormon Moment’,” Twede says.

Twede took down his blog in an effort to compromise with church leaders and even pulled some material off MormonThink. But he says it apparently didn’t change their view that he is an apostate, which means a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.

Word has already begun to spread about Twede’s possible excommunication among members and former members of the church. While Benson's post about Twede has been taken down from the Mormon chat room at Twede's request, “people are really angry about this,” Benson says. Supporters have planned a candlelight vigil in support of Twede outside the Orlando Temple on Saturday night.

Twede was initially reluctant to talk about it, but he decided that "the public should be aware of what is happening within the walls of the Mormon church to those that dissent during this ‘Mormon Moment'."

Twede insists the church shouldn’t be allowed to act in this manner and quietly get away. “This encourages them to continue with others using similar tactics,” he says. “We prefer they act responsibly with those that dissent. We believe this article will in fact halt disciplinary action against me. However, my feelings about being part of this organization are changing rapidly. Even if they proceed, it will not be considerably harmful to me anymore.”

Twede, who is trained in physics and molecular biology and did his undergraduate work at Cal-Berkeley and his graduate work at the University of Michigan, works with lasers and light to analyze the makeup of material. He takes a similarly scientific, analytical approach to his editing job at MormonThink, which is billed as an “objective look at Mormonism.”

The online journal, which has been around for about eight years, offers a variety of posts about church history that are not necessarily being taught in the official curriculum but which, Twede says, “is accurate.”

Twede started contributing to MormonThink about four years ago and says he was recently asked to be managing editor when the former editor resigned after also being “confronted and pressured” by the Church leaders, according to Twede.

“Rather than go through the excommunication, he resigned for family reasons,” explains Twede, who notes that after the former editor resigned, LDS leaders kept it quiet. “They didn’t want anyone to know about MormonThink. They wanted him to take the site down.”

Twede was told that the blog site he occupied has now been taken over by someone else. "I think a Mormon apologist group is running it now,” he says. “If you see it, you’ll notice that it is critical of MormonThink.”

Despite the unpleasant interrogation this week, Twede says he does not want to ruin the public reputation of church leaders in Florida because he believes they are “acting as agents of HQ leadership in Salt Lake.”

I think that the whole thing of saying that it's because of Romney is tenuous. Though some have pointed out that the "temple" article that the church complained about had been up for months and it was only a week or so after the Romney article that they came after him.
 

Yoritomo

Member
Looks like that mormonthink story is going national.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/21/mormons-want-to-excommunicate-romney-critic.html



I think that the whole thing of saying that it's because of Romney is tenuous. Though some have pointed out that the "temple" article that the church complained about had been up for months and it was only a week or so after the Romney article that they came after him.

Yup. They were just able to find him due to his prozacville blog.

http://mormonthinkblog2012.blogspot.com/

The whole Romney connection is specious. Harry Reid Hates Romney's ass but I doubt he's up for excommunication.

He posted anonymously to mormonthink, then starts a blog up that contains information that will easily identify him. Leadership tracks him down and puts him in the stocks, simple as that. Had he identified himself earlier they would have tracked him down earlier as more people came to their leadership regarding information they had found on mormonthink.
 

ronito

Member
I posted this in the other thread:

So here's a copy of one of the articles (forewarning: this contains details about masonic elements in the mormon temple including details of signs and tokens and such if you are offended by this stuff DO NOT click.)

http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/group/researchingmormonism/page/mormon-temple

If you look at this and keep in mind that by going through the temple you make covenants at least 3 times that you will never discuss or divulge any of it. So it's not at all surprising that someone that is active in the church then posts this stuff online would get excommunicated.

Far more likely than because he said something against Romney.

The timing that they wouldn't raise this article as disciplinable is unfortunate at best and suspicious at worst.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I love it.
Corvo's like "I like hanging with Ronito, it helps me not be so condescending to stupid people."

Love ya man.

It's funny that you bring up the two church thing because my reply to Eskimo was gonna be that there were two churches. One in the mormon corridor (utah/idaho) and one for the rest.
And the experiences in the two are completely different, at least when it comes to people.

I didn't mean you were stupid! I meant it to come off more as "This thread helps me confront my own inner demons." Good feelings! GOOD FEELINGS!

I'd also like to state I'm actually from OUTSIDE the corridor and I don't want to raise my children inside it. I never even wanted to come here as a kid, but on my mission I got the, I dunno, urge to go in this direction, and it really has been a positive experience thus far. I like the community feeling.

As I said in the other thread, no way was the guy excommunicated on political grounds. Violating temple covenants I can believe, because you're warned repeatedly against it (funny story on that in a minute.) but politics? Never. D&C says it, the First Presidency issues a letter on it like, every election year, and all my Poli Sci professors make certain to point it out: The Church does not hold political stances. It's one of my biggest issues with Prop 8, for that matter. The Church doesn't endorse political stances and members can have whatever ones they want. Last year we had an article about Joseph F. Smith and Henry B. Eyring disagreeing about the age of the Earth (a Prophet and future member of the 1st Pres.), so disagreement is certainly accepted within the Church (I forget who said it, but this year we had a quote from a GA saying "To disagree is acceptable, but to be disagreeable is unacceptable.").

So the funny story: One time, in one of my areas in Brazil, we came to see some of the youth after Seminary, and we shook their hands (because as an Elder you don't understand physical contact with non-missionary humanoids unless it's via handshake.) and well, let's just say that wasn't the Boy Scout Secret Hand Shake! I guess the kids knew by the expressions on our faces, because that was certainly how we knew they knew what they'd just done. So we "launch an investigation" and find out that their SEMINARY TEACHER HAD TAUGHT THEM!

On the Mission you just kinda laugh some apostasies off because you can't do anything about them, and this was definitely one of them. So we told the kids not to go around doing that, then just kinda laughed about it for the rest of the night to ourselves.

But yeah, you get a pretty fair amount of warning over this stuff. They say the ceremony isn't as intense as when my Dad was a kid, but some things are still pretty straightforward.

That said, I always find it humorous how nefarious some non-members find the whole Temple thing. The ceremony really isn't anything that spectacular. I would imagine that, for people who aren't invested emotionally/spiritually in it, it really wouldn't be much of anything to talk about.

Don't get me wrong, I love going to the Temple, and they're fascinating places with all manner of history and symbolism, but compared to the things people THINK happen inside they're pretty mundane.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
But yeah, you get a pretty fair amount of warning over this stuff. They say the ceremony isn't as intense as when my Dad was a kid, but some things are still pretty straightforward.
The endowment was changed in 1980, to take out blood oaths and some overt sexism, and the annointing part more recently. Before it was oil placed on various parts of your naked body as you wore a flat sheet, and this was the version I went through.

And the actual content isn't really what's nerarious, it's how it's packaged. Members are forbidden from discussing it so nobody is ever told what goes on in detail just OH DON'T WORRY. Somebody who is already believes the church is true is then forced to believe in the temple endowment as well without even knowing what it is. Then when that person actually does go through with it they are with others so there is intense peer pressure to both convince them it's not so crazy and to keep them from backing out.

This is how cults work, full stop. If the temple wasn't so secret then it wouldn't be an issue. If they believed that masonic rites were divine in nature that's up to them but the way the church dumps it on people is incredibly manipulative.
 

ronito

Member
So it looks like there's more than just the mormonthink guy here's another blogger that's going under the same disciplinary thing:

http://awakeandarisetozion.blogspot.com/2012/09/things-lately.html
News is...I have been issued papers by my Bishopric to attend a Disciplinary court to be held this Wed night Sept 19th to discuss possible disfellowship or even excommunication, the charge: "Reported to have participated in conduct unbecoming of a member of the church"...my heart is breaking because I love the people at church, I love the leaders and I love the gospel of Christ. Never has my testimony of HIS Atonement been more personal and powerful in my life than now, my belief in the Restoration of the Gospel and the Book of Mormon speaking to us as LDS in this day ...is unshakable.

.....

So, back to the story...I have had numerous phone calls and meetings with with Leaders who want to know what I am thinking. No matter how much a bare testimony they are only interested in what I am thinking and reading and what I think of the Prophet Monson. My testimony hold no weight regarding my devotion to the Gospel of Christ and to Christ himself.

I believe the church as a tracking cookie n my computer because the Bishop told my husband "We know everything you are reading,all the sites Eva has been to"

It gets a little personal but just adds even more credence that this isn't anything Romney related. Just cleaning house.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I can see why you would say that, I guess, but I wasn't addressing that, really. I was speaking more to the people who spend their time inventing wild stories about human sacrifice to goat statues and the like in there. There are aspects of regular meetings which are in some ways comparable, I suppose, like the "voting" that goes on during sustainings and the like. I mean, I've seen one dissenting vote ever, and its consequences were slim to none.

Allow me to rephrase my earlier statement, then: there is very little in the Temple Ceremony that I would honestly classify as the great evil some trump it up to be. I cannot think of any aspect of it that I have ever been asked by any Church authority as to whether or not I keep, excluding one which is taught by Missionaries, Sunday School teachers, and present in Bishop interviews, making it a case of you had ample warning. I speak only of the ceremony as it now stands, and cannot answer for it as it was before my time, because I don't know anything about it.

That, I think, is the major distinction between the ceremony and those a cult would practice. The Temple covenants, insofar as I know them, aren't enforced in any overbearing way. As a matter of fact, the most prying into it I can honestly say any authority in the Church has done in recent times to me is ask the incredibly bare bones: "Do you keep your temple covenants".

The Church also offers a Temple Prep class nowadays. I dunno if they used to do that or not. I'm of the opinion though, that the Church really is doing its best to overcome its past shortcomings.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Allow me to rephrase my earlier statement, then: there is very little in the Temple Ceremony that I would honestly classify as the great evil some trump it up to be. I cannot think of any aspect of it that I have ever been asked by any Church authority as to whether or not I keep, excluding one which is taught by Missionaries, Sunday School teachers, and present in Bishop interviews, making it a case of you had ample warning. I speak only of the ceremony as it now stands, and cannot answer for it as it was before my time, because I don't know anything about it.

That, I think, is the major distinction between the ceremony and those a cult would practice. The Temple covenants, insofar as I know them, aren't enforced in any overbearing way. As a matter of fact, the most prying into it I can honestly say any authority in the Church has done in recent times to me is ask the incredibly bare bones: "Do you keep your temple covenants".

In a cult, on the other hand, you're far more likely to be monitored in your adherence to these things, and I mean that in a sense that goes beyond the "Oh no the Bishop found out about x and now I'm being excommunicated!"
As current events can attest, keeping it secret is pretty important. The sacred part you just repent for.

Anyway, to a large extent such enforcement in those groups isn't entirely necessary. For example, in The Truman Show they didn't need to confine Truman Burbank to the town of Seahaven in an entirely physical way. They eliminated him leaving by boat and exploring in general through both the endless promotion of staying in town as well as introducing phobias of leaving. Specifically, they made him afraid of water. While this happened in a movie, techniques in real life aren't much different, but you get a lot of variability in its effectiveness. Some don't care and drift out. Some are affected much more and have to break out.


So I agree that it can certainly be a pressured and harsh experience, but on the other hand, the Church DOES offer a Temple Prep class in an effort to help ease people into it. I'm not denying that it's one of the weirder parts of the religion, just that I think people play up how weird. Which could be because it at one time was weird, but nowadays it just really isn't.
I've taken Temple Prep. They don't explain anything in that class.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
I remember when I first heard of it I was less active by then already and thought it was just an exmormon lie. Then a few months ago I found out it was real. not just real like real as in verified by Elder Holland real.
Why lie? The truth is much too fun.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I've taken Temple Prep. They don't explain anything in that class.

I couldn't say. I didn't take it, haha. I didn't even take Mission Prep. Got to the Temple, went through it all and was just like "buuuuuuuuuh brain melt."

But I've already weighed in on the fact that part of me is in love with the secrets, the not-knowing and never-will-know, the downright weird and the incredibly strange. The other part of me serves to keep that part in check by constantly reminding it that the basic aspects are of far greater importance and that I can worry about the rest when I've got them down pat.

Which I suppose is a textbook case of a Mormon looking the wackiness of his Church in the face, going, "Yeah not today," and just going back to his happy little happy land. I beg forgiveness in that case, but to me there will always be an element of "So what?" to the complaints about the weird parts of the Church.

But yeah, I never took Temple Prep, so I couldn't help you out there. I slept through all four years of Seminary, too. Which isn't to say I don't have a good grip on the Standard Works, but yeah, I slacked off a bunch as a kid and didn't get my act together till my Mission.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
But yeah, I never took Temple Prep, so I couldn't help you out there. I slept through all four years of Seminary, too. Which isn't to say I don't have a good grip on the Standard Works, but yeah, I slacked off a bunch as a kid and didn't get my act together till my Mission.
When it came to doctrine and church history I was pretty well versed from childhood on. My parents even took me to the major sites like Palmyra, Kirkland, and Nauvoo. I've been to SLC and Provo a couple times too. Done multiple temple baptism trips. Attended a temple dedication. Shook Hinkley's hand at a regional conference. The only thing I didn't do as much was scripture memorization, although I had read much of the scriptures and did a complete BoM read. I was always particularly interested in the apocalyptic stuff, and there was a lot of stuff to go through. I remember first going through the book of revelations in elementary. I also ate up those panel narrative treatments of the scriptures when I was little.

But with seminary I had two problems: it was all review for me and it was early in the morning. Sleep gradually won out more with each year. I don't remember if I even completed it or not.

I was also not that great at being a Boy Scout. Never made Eagle.
 

CorvoSol

Member
When it came to doctrine and church history I was pretty well versed from childhood on. My parents even took me to the major sites like Palmyra, Kirkland, and Nauvoo. I've been to SLC and Provo a couple times too. Done multiple temple baptism trips. Attended a temple dedication. Shook Hinkley's hand at a regional conference. The only thing I didn't do as much was scripture memorization, although I had read much of the scriptures and did a complete BoM read. I was always particularly interested in the apocalyptic stuff, and there was a lot of stuff to go through. I remember first going through the book of revelations in elementary. I also ate up those panel narrative treatments of the scriptures when I was little.

But with seminary I had two problems: it was all review for me and it was early in the morning. Sleep gradually won out more with each year. I don't remember if I even completed it or not.

I was also not that great at being a Boy Scout. Never made Eagle.

Now see, here I really excel. The rest I can't say. On my mission I went through the BoM something like 4 times (I really do love it, but even I was burned on "E Aconteceu" by the end of the fourth. That said, I took a class last semester and loved it.) Barely ever set foot in Salt Lake, but I did hang out a lot with one of Elder Oaks' grandsons as a kid.

Back to Scouting though. My family has always been big on camping. Like, my Grandfather's parents were less-active (to be honest I think they weren't at all, but he never really talks about his father too much.) so camping was kinda his religion as a kid. So getting my Eagle was a big deal to me. My brothers didn't, and that's cool, just like how I don't mind much that they never served missions either. For me it was important, though.

So I'm big on Scouting, and I really wish more people could get involved, but at the same time, I find the whole anti-gay stance in it really sad. Things'll change though, I'm sure.

Never did get the Arrow of Light, 'cuz we didn't have Weblos at that point cuz we were moving. Finished my Eagle Project when ON my 18th Birthday (had to really bust my back for it, because the Scouting Program had all but died for a few years in my area.) And now my Eagle Project is grown over, but whatever. It was a good experience for me, and it's nice to put on the resume.
 
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