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[Hitokage]

I got the arrow of light and also the medal of honor. I think I was close to making either Star or Life but I really can't remember.

 

[CorvoSol]

I got the arrow of light and also the medal of honor. I think I was close to making either Star or Life but I really can't remember.

I never got any medals, either. Except the Eagle one. I don't even have a Uniform at present. I got to help out my Grandfather with his 11 year old camporee this summer, and that was great. They put him in charge of the 11 year olds recently, and I'm really happy about it because he was having a very hard time after my Grandmother passed away. Putting him in a group of scouts has been a great way to keep his mind off it and get him interested in living again.

That's probably why Scouting is so important to me, really, because it connects me to my father and his father.

 

[ronito]

And now this is funny.

Nevada (a swing state) Stake Presidents passed around this Power Point.

I love it it's like Hito's whole "sustaining" thing. Sure you have a choice but you know the choice they want you to make.

"Vote however you want!"
"But we must stop Satan and speak with ONE voice <wink wink nudge nudge>. "


http://abcnews.go.com/images/Blotter/Mormon_register.pdf

 

[SillyEskimo]

And now this is funny.

Nevada (a swing state) Stake Presidents passed around this Power Point.

I love it it's like Hito's whole "sustaining" thing. Sure you have a choice but you know the choice they want you to make.

"Vote however you want!"
"But we must stop Satan and speak with ONE voice <wink wink nudge nudge>. "


http://abcnews.go.com/images/Blotter/Mormon_register.pdf

The hospital I work at does the exact same thing. It makes me sick. "I cannot tell you how to vote, BUT...".

 

[CorvoSol]

And now this is funny.

Nevada (a swing state) Stake Presidents passed around this Power Point.

I love it it's like Hito's whole "sustaining" thing. Sure you have a choice but you know the choice they want you to make.

"Vote however you want!"
"But we must stop Satan and speak with ONE voice <wink wink nudge nudge>. "


http://abcnews.go.com/images/Blotter/Mormon_register.pdf

Maybe it's just because I'm in the Poli Sci dept. but here at BYUI I have professors who do the exact opposite and point out that one of the reasons people hated the Saints so much back in the day was voting in blocks(granted as I recall it was also because they voted in blocks against slavery, but I can't recall now). Likewise the Poli Sci honor society goes to great lengths to point out that they're a non-partisan organization.

 

[ronito]

Oh and about the temple prep stuff. I took the institute class.

It essentially comprised of them telling me how holy the temple was and reading the Pearl of Great Price. Really didn't prepare me at all for the temple.

I was seriously freaked when I went the first time. So much so that I didn't adhere to that whole "Just go until you're comfortable" advice that everyone gives. I was like "This is religion not anal sex."

Maybe it's just because I'm in the Poli Sci dept. but here at BYUI I have professors who do the exact opposite and point out that one of the reasons people hated the Saints so much back in the day was voting in blocks(granted as I recall it was also because they voted in blocks against slavery, but I can't recall now). Likewise the Poli Sci honor society goes to great lengths to point out that they're a non-partisan organization.

I think that the fact that there's a lay leadership in the church really helps and hurts the church. When you see stuff like this, it's probably just a few Stake Presidents that are like "This is a great idea!" and push it forward. They have the authority to do so but not necessarily the visibility of how it might affect the church's overall image.

 

[Hitokage]

Oh and about the temple prep stuff. I took the institute class.

It essentially comprised of them telling me how holy the temple was and reading the Pearl of Great Price. Really didn't prepare me at all for the temple.

Yeah, it's pretty much doubling down on the importance of the temple, but aside from some assurances you get here and there nothing is really about the actual act itself.

 

[CorvoSol]

Oh and about the temple prep stuff. I took the institute class.

It essentially comprised of them telling me how holy the temple was and reading the Pearl of Great Price. Really didn't prepare me at all for the temple.

I was seriously freaked when I went the first time. So much so that I didn't adhere to that whole "Just go until you're comfortable" advice that everyone gives. I was like "This is religion not anal sex."

Bwahahaha, this reminds me of my mission so much. And I know that not elaborating on that sounds terrible, but I'm not sure how elaborating on it would help. Basically, I had a companion whose catch phrase was "Relaxa, se nao, nao encaixa." which means "Relax, if you don't, it won't fit." or "this" won't fit.

Bear in mind that I also served in Brazil, so anal sex popped up once or twice as a topic.

I think that the fact that there's a lay leadership in the church really helps and hurts the church. When you see stuff like this, it's probably just a few Stake Presidents that are like "This is a great idea!" and push it forward. They have the authority to do so but not necessarily the visibility of how it might affect the church's overall image.

Absolutely. In Anapolis, the Stake President was a great guy, but he was also insane. He had purchased land outside town where he planned on constructing a bairro or neighborhood only for LDS. He also had his own band named Quetzalcoatl and they had this song about Joseph that was so funny I literally could not stop laughing the first time I heard it. I wish I could find that song out there. *goes to look* *fails to find*. He also had a book published. He was a great guy, but I really did think he was off his rocker.

 

[ronito]

Bwahahaha, this reminds me of my mission so much. And I know that not elaborating on that sounds terrible, but I'm not sure how elaborating on it would help. Basically, I had a companion whose catch phrase was "Relaxa, se nao, nao encaixa." which means "Relax, if you don't, it won't fit." or "this" won't fit.

Bear in mind that I also served in Brazil, so anal sex popped up once or twice as a topic.

A missionary with an anal sex catch phrase? Wow.

 

[CorvoSol]

A missionary with an anal sex catch phrase? Wow.

Brazil is a magical place, Ronito. The members of the church talk about sex there a lot more than they do here. They have green birds that fly in the sky and their money is pink and blue and they charge 76 cents for things despite the penny having been disbanded. It's a special, magical country where everything is possible and nothing is unusual.

Join me on this adventure, Ronito.

 

[Yoritomo]

Reddit thread getting interesting.

http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10ejn1/show_of_support_for_david_twede_92912/

 

[ronito]

Reddit thread getting interesting.

http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10ejn1/show_of_support_for_david_twede_92912/

Man, exmos can be such a bunch of whiny drama queen bitches. And we wonder why mormons don't listen to us.

Look, the dude dun goofed. I personally think it's dumb for the church to try and discipline him (again you have two choices, have the person be on your side and try to tell your point or make them a martyr and an enemy. You're not gonna stop him from publishing it. But you can control the tone he takes.) But the church is totally in their rights to kick him out if they want to. You're a mormon you know what you're signing up for.

If the church were to come to me tomorrow and be like "We've seen your neogaf posts. We're excommunicating you." I'd be like "I think you're making the wrong decision but you have the right."

 

[Yoritomo]

I think it has to do with timing and how much you personally have been affected by it.

There's a lot of stuff I like about the church, and my faith crisis didn't happen during rebellion or frustration. I took moroni's promise and all my belief was based on it. Which also meant that I didn't worry about the historical oddities of church history (I knew all of them, I had every tanner book as well as basically the entire infobase library which I read most of. I even have a copy of the original article in the Improvement Era with Nibley's response to criticism of the book of Abraham). If God said it was true, then it was true regardless of the information out there. I felt the spirit and could make others feel it. I was a powerful missionary and speaker because of it. I really wish there was one true way that held all the answers but unfortunately life isn't that simple and ideas even good ones come from flawed men who also have some bad ideas.

People who leave as teenagers (ie the height of self loathing when they can't meet the church's standards) are usually much more angry. That is probably most of /r/exmormon

 

[Hitokage]

Man, exmos can be such a bunch of whiny drama queen bitches. And we wonder why mormons don't listen to us.

Look, the dude dun goofed. I personally think it's dumb for the church to try and discipline him (again you have two choices, have the person be on your side and try to tell your point or make them a martyr and an enemy. You're not gonna stop him from publishing it. But you can control the tone he takes.) But the church is totally in their rights to kick him out if they want to. You're a mormon you know what you're signing up for.

If the church were to come to me tomorrow and be like "We've seen your neogaf posts. We're excommunicating you." I'd be like "I think you're making the wrong decision but you have the right."

Eh, the problem comes when they try to excommunicate you after you've already left, acting like they still have control over your life. Sure, they can waste their own time and wave that stick, but it's also within the person's rights to tell them to go pound sand.

 

[ronito]

I think it has to do with timing and how much you personally have been affected by it.

There's a lot of stuff I like about the church, and my faith crisis didn't happen during rebellion or frustration. I took moroni's promise and all my belief was based on it. Which also meant that I didn't worry about the historical oddities of church history (I knew all of them, I had every tanner book as well as basically the entire infobase library which I read most of. I even have a copy of the original article in the Improvement Era with Nibley's response to criticism of the book of Abraham). If God said it was true, then it was true regardless of the information out there. I felt the spirit and could make others feel it. I was a powerful missionary and speaker because of it. I really wish there was one true way that held all the answers but unfortunately life isn't that simple and ideas even good ones come from flawed men who also have some bad ideas.

People who leave as teenagers (ie the height of self loathing when they can't meet the church's standards) are usually much more angry. That is probably most of /r/exmormon

I dunno. I've met a few people that left in their teenage years that just totally left the church behind and didn't think twice about never doing anything more with the church on either side. I've met people in their 60s that left and were the most bitter of exmos I met.

I think it has to do with how you leave more than anything really. For me it was a variation on your story. Mine started with Moroni's promise too. But mine took decades. It was after nearly two decades that I decided that if I wasn't getting an answer it wasn't because of me or something I was doing wrong. But it was those decades that helped me to sort of come to terms with leaving. And really it's still an ongoing process one that I pay a lot of attention to. I understand that it's a grieving process.

I think people that just up on leave on a whim right away tend to have a harder time of things.

I will say though that if you get me on the subject of the church and sex I do turn into a as slathering exmo as you've seen. In that respect I do think it's corrosive and toxic. I think we all have triggers.

Eh, the problem comes when they try to excommunicate you after you've already left, acting like they still have control over your life. Sure, they can waste their own time and wave that stick, but it's also within the person's rights to tell them to go pound sand.

Well that's the problem. If you've already left it will only incite more spite and it really doesn't mean anything.

If you do it for people that in the church then I believe it should be used exceedingly sparingly. As in, people going to polygamy or starting their own offshoots. Posting factual stuff about the church, even if it's supposed to be secret, while understandable, I do think it will ultimately backfire. If it's all factual, better to keep them close where you can reason and try at least have a say in the conversation than to kick them out and then suddenly have no influence at all in the conversation.

I remember last year elder Jenkins saying that the church had to take back the conversation on the internet. At the time I thought "Good luck with that. I don't think the church fully understands what that would take." and these recent cleaning house moves proves it to me.

 

[Hitokage]

People who leave as teenagers (ie the height of self loathing when they can't meet the church's standards) are usually much more angry. That is probably most of /r/exmormon

Still clinging to the "they sinned/were weak/were offended" mantra?

Actually, from my time on the RfM boards, some of the most pure vitriol I've seen were from people who left as adults. They felt robbed of decades of time, and as I've gotten older I've come to understand this feeling pretty well. Life is too short to waste on bullshit.

 

[Yoritomo]

Still clinging to the "they sinned/were weak/were offended" mantra?

Actually, from my time on the RfM boards, some of the most pure vitriol I've seen were from people who left as adults. They felt robbed of decades of time, and as I've gotten older I've come to understand this feeling pretty well. Life is too short to waste on bullshit.

Not really. I think the main thing is that they haven't stuck around long enough to see any benefit whatsoever. There is 0 upside to being a mormon teenager. Being shit on and judged constantly and made to feel worthless hardly has a good effect on people.

I will say though that if you get me on the subject of the church and sex I do turn into a as slathering exmo as you've seen. In that respect I do think it's corrosive and toxic. I think we all have triggers.

When you realize you were angry and bitter in order to meet the standards that originated from a man who abused his power to sleep with other men's wives... yeah I get pretty damned salty too.

It also probably has something to do with whether you feel that the church fooled you or that you fooled yourself. I fooled myself. The unfortunate side effect is that I'm now decidedly atheist in my thought processes. As teenagers it's basically guaranteed that almost everyone is in the category of the church fooling them.

 

[Yoritomo]

double post.

 

[ronito]

When you realize you were angry and bitter in order to meet the standards that originated from a man who abused his power to sleep with other men's wives... yeah I get pretty damned salty too.

It also probably has something to do with whether you feel that the church fooled you or that you fooled yourself. I fooled myself. The unfortunate side effect is that I'm now decidedly atheist in my thought processes. As teenagers it's basically guaranteed that almost everyone is in the category of the church fooling them.

Yeah, it all came at once for me when someone I respected told me, "Never trust what an octogenarian has to say about physical relationships. They've forgotten what it's like." That and then finding out about all the wives and then seeing how repressed and frankly dysfunctional a lot of people dear to me were that suddenly turned it into a huge point for me.

It's funny because the whole mormon teaching about recieving bodies was a blessing and we were so happy in heaven when it was revealed we'd have them that adds to the fire. It saddens me to think that this might be the only chance people have to enjoy their bodies and they're denying themselves some basic pleasures for the hope of something later that might never happen.

Also I do think that the whole "The church fooled you" thing has a lot to do with the level of bitterness in exmos. I can't say I believe the church "fooled me" I do think they painted over/neglected to bring up some problem parts but that was my own thing. Personally I get the feeling of loss and anger over the whole thing. I see it every day. But at the same time I think some people just throw themselves completely into their hate and anger over it. Everyone has ways to cope with it.

 

[ronito]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81632.html

Mitt Romney “is not the face of Mormonism,” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says, adding the former Massachusetts governor has “sullied” his faith.

“He’s coming to a state where there are a lot of members of the LDS Church,” Reid said in advance of Romney’s visit later this week to Nevada, according to the Salt Lake Tribune on Monday, based on a Friday conference call Reid did with reporters. “They understand that he is not the face of Mormonism.”

Reid, a Mormon, said he agreed with Gregory A. Prince, a Mormon historian who wrote a blog post criticizing Romney in the wake of the Republican’s remarks disparaging the “47 percent.”

“He said that Romney has sullied the religion that he, Prince and Romney share,” Reid said on the conference call. “And he’s so disappointed that in his words, ‘It’s a good religion and he’s hiding from it.’”

Republicans took issue with Reid’s theological dabbling.

“Shame on them,” Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) told the Tribune. “Harry Reid seems to be making this way too personal and consequently throwing the religion under the bus for his own personal gain. That’s not where anyone should be going with this. He’s taking this two steps too far.”

Earlier this year, Reid alleged Romney hadn’t paid any taxes for at least one year. According to a summary of Romney’s tax rates released by the nominee’s accountant, his lowest-ever tax rate was 13.66 percent.

Oh Harry, you're in your own bubble.
In many ways Romney is the mormon church incarnate much more than Harry ever would be.

There's a reason everyone knows that Romney is mormon but when they hear that Reid's a mormon the typical reaction is "Really?"

 

[Yoritomo]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81632.html


Oh Harry, you're in your own bubble.
In many ways Romney is the mormon church incarnate much more than Harry ever would be.

There's a reason everyone knows that Romney is mormon but when they hear that Reid's a mormon the typical reaction is "Really?"

Edit: What I said was too aggressive but the Bensons and Skousens have really done a number on the church.

 

[Jburton]

Hi all, I had not see this posted anywhere and thought this might be a relevant place to put it.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/the-mexican-mormon-war-part-1

Vice have done a story about the Mormon colonies in Mexico where Mitt Romneys father was born and where some of his family still live and how they are under attack from the cartels as well as their opinion on Mitt Romneys election promises on immigration and drugs.

I found it very interesting.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Not really. I think the main thing is that they haven't stuck around long enough to see any benefit whatsoever. There is 0 upside to being a mormon teenager. Being shit on and judged constantly and made to feel worthless hardly has a good effect on people.

I wasn't even active, but having grown up in Utah County, I'm STILL working through shame issues from when I was a teenager. That culture of shame goes right down to the soil around there.

When I was still living in Utah as a twentysomething, long after I left religion behind, my level of anger at the church was directly related to how much I saw it interfering in daily life that was none of its business. My feelings about the church are a lot easier for me to deal with at a remove, and if/when I move back, I think it'll be a lot easier for me to carve out a space for myself far removed (mentally) from whatever the church is up to.

 

[Hitokage]

Yoritomo: If you're leaving out of teenage rebellion then you're probably about as likely to become a jack mormon. You say you don't experience any upside, but saying "whatever" to it all doesn't really engender resentment either.

I've seen this myself too.

 

[Yoritomo]

Yoritomo: If you're leaving out of teenage rebellion then you're probably about as likely to become a jack mormon. You say you don't experience any upside, but saying "whatever" to it all doesn't really engender resentment either.

I've seen this myself too.

It also comes down to understanding how an intelligent person can believe. If someone has never experienced actual belief it's hard to imagine that any sane person could possibly believe what mormons believe. When you can no longer view an adherent as a rational human it's easy to hate.

 

[Hitokage]

It also comes down to understanding how an intelligent person can believe. If someone has never experienced actual belief it's hard to imagine that any sane person could possibly believe what mormons believe. When you can no longer view an adherent as a rational human it's easy to hate.

This isn't about hating mormons. It's about hating the church, in which the faith and the organization itself are bound together because without the hierarchy the entire belief system loses meaning.

And your implication that they haven't experienced true belief is insulting.

 

[Yoritomo]

This isn't about hating mormons. It's about hating the church, in which the faith and the organization itself are bound together because without the hierarchy the entire belief system loses meaning.

And your implication that they haven't experienced true belief is insulting.

The belief of a fanatic? The belief that the physical "facts" don't matter because the spirit has manifested to them through vision or impression what is truth? Maybe a better word is zealotry. Do you understand zealotry or where it comes from? Have you experienced it in your head and had to reason your way away from that expanded part of our consciousness that allows us to turn jumping at shadows into en entire mythology of eternal life? Nah, most people stop at the ridiculous history and find reason to leave before they've seen a vision after praying for 12 hours straight.

 

[Hitokage]

Maybe instead of making assumptions you should hear people in their own words.

 

[CorvoSol]

Weighing on the debate that's going on, I will only say this: In my life I've seen a fair number of people go inactive. There were radically different circumstances in every case for me. The temptation to judge some has been massive for me because of the closeness of the situation. As I grow older, I express only sadness that it happens. That said, it would be uncharacteristic for me as a Saint to begrudge them the choice. The Book of Mormon teaches that among the Nephites there was no law against people believing contrary to the Church, and while I don't think Nephite civilization was the pinnacle of humanity, I find that to be a good rule.

I separate, and I beg forgiveness of the many ExMos in this thread, ExMos into two categories: The nice ones and the mean ones. Nice ones have their reasons for leaving but are still nice to active members and serve as an excellent resource in analyzing where the Church needs to work on improving itself. Mean ones are the ones whose complaints about the Church, however legitimate, are wasted by the, how shall I say, anger with which they manifest their opinions. Most of ex or less active members I've met have been nice. On my mission they would make it clear they didn't want anything, but would still give me a cup of water. I reserve further comment on the mean ones because I have just about as much nice to say about them as they do me.

I am overjoyed when people enter the Church, and I reserve the right to be on the grounds that I legitimately believe the Church can and does bring great things into the lives of people. I am understandably saddened when people leave it. But just as I would deem it wrong to force someone to enter, I cannot deny someone the right to leave.

Which, going back to what was said earlier, is why I actually have to agree with what Ronito said about excommunication. If I were Bishop or Stake President, I would treat excommunication as a very much last resort. But I am not a Bishop, and it is not in my hands to decide these things.

Turning away from these subjects, I'm pretty stoked right now because General Conference is coming. I'm trying to convince a friend of mine to go down to Provo so we can take part in our Mission's Reunion that Saturday, so I'm super hyped for that (even as I dread it) and also because GC has been an amazing experience for me since my Mission. I know some of you don't like Elder Holland, but he's kinda my personal fave because he's all about the whole "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" take on the Gospel and even though I will swear up and down in this thread that I am as progressive as it gets inside the Church, I love me a good ol' fashioned call to repentance and nobody does them quite as well as Elder Holland. Not to me.

In the continuing saga of me being FHE dad, I keep trying to convince my roommates that there is nothing going on between me and the FHE mom, and her telling her parents I'm her "FHE hubby" didn't help my case. She's a great person, but I'm not really that into her that way. FHE was pretty cool though. Porter park was FULL of FHE groups and we elected to play us some good ol' fashioned soccer and sardines, so it worked out. Oh, and Book of Mormon class online whomps. In class it's cool because we can sit and talk and stuff, but taking a religion course online is, I dunno, it's so mechanical. It takes out all the emotion, all the life and just makes it this cold study thing and that's not fun. I prefer to get myself all caught up in the Scriptures as I study them. I like to talk about what Abraham was getting at with all that stuff about stars and whether or not you can make a case for certain doctrines being in the BoM and whether or not Jesus was a super badass who ninja dodged Pharisee attempts at stoning him and walked around with his cool Apostle bros and his totally not a harem or not.

But online it's just: Read Alma 32. Talk about faith and seeds. Post on discussion board. Done.
(which is a shame, because there's so much more in Alma 32 than that ONE VERSE.)

 

[Yoritomo]

Anyone who thinks facts or infographics will somehow bring down the faith of anyone who has has had a "spiritual" witness is sorely deluded. The assumption is easy to make when those are the loudest angriest arguments in /r/exmormon . Attributing that to teens who leave is relatively easy and solidified even more by the number of posts by teenagers living in a mormon family trying to bide their time before they're out.

 

[Hitokage]

Anyone who thinks facts or infographics will somehow bring down the faith of anyone who has has had a "spiritual" witness is sorely deluded. The assumption is easy to make when those are the loudest angriest arguments in /r/exmormon . Attributing that to teens who leave is relatively easy and solidified even more by the number of posts by teenagers living in a mormon family trying to bide their time before they're out.

*sigh*

The facts themselves aren't what do it. It's just the snow on the ground for rocks that end up rolling down the hill. You can have an ironclad belief, and cognitive dissonance will shield you from seriously considering such things, but there may come a chance moment when you allow yourself to be open to it, and that's when things can come crashing down. That crash is an incredibly emotional period in which people can be enraged or heartbroken while still wanting to believe but not knowing what to do anymore.

But sure, let's chalk it all up on those bum teenagers you see on reddit.

 

[ronito]

Weighing on the debate that's going on, I will only say this: In my life I've seen a fair number of people go inactive. There were radically different circumstances in every case for me. The temptation to judge some has been massive for me because of the closeness of the situation. As I grow older, I express only sadness that it happens. That said, it would be uncharacteristic for me as a Saint to begrudge them the choice. The Book of Mormon teaches that among the Nephites there was no law against people believing contrary to the Church, and while I don't think Nephite civilization was the pinnacle of humanity, I find that to be a good rule.

I separate, and I beg forgiveness of the many ExMos in this thread, ExMos into two categories: The nice ones and the mean ones. Nice ones have their reasons for leaving but are still nice to active members and serve as an excellent resource in analyzing where the Church needs to work on improving itself. Mean ones are the ones whose complaints about the Church, however legitimate, are wasted by the, how shall I say, anger with which they manifest their opinions. Most of ex or less active members I've met have been nice. On my mission they would make it clear they didn't want anything, but would still give me a cup of water. I reserve further comment on the mean ones because I have just about as much nice to say about them as they do me.

Man I don't want to think about what category I'm in. Cause I think I know.

This reminds me of a recent event with an Elder's Quorum president. I recently moved and we got a visit from the primary president. She came and hung out for a while and asked why my 9 year old wasn't baptized I replied that while our names were still on the records we really didn't have any interest in being active. We appreciate the company and she could always come and hang but if she was hoping to reactivate us or see if we left because of sinning/offense or not understanding the teachings she'd be sorely disappointed. She was totally cool with it. She said she'd still stop by and invite my wife to enrichment.

About two weeks later I get a call from the Elder's Quorum President hearing that we had moved to the ward and the primary president told him about us and he was really anxious to meet us and see if we could talk about the church and all that. I told him the same thing, I was always up for company but he'd be disappointed if the thought this would be a reactivation campaign. He asked if he could send Home Teachers "If you know what that is." I replied that they were always welcome to visit but I knew they most likely wouldn't come. At which point he said, "Oh so you're familiar with the home teaching program." I noted that I was member for more than three decades so yeah I knew. So we talked a bit more he asked the typical stuff. Then he said, "So maybe I'll come and visit." I said he was always welcome to. He tried to share a few scriptures but after he saw that I knew them he quickly excused himself and said, "You know I'll probably not visit you."

And that was it. We never saw the Primary President or heard from Elder's Quorum President again. It's was sorta funny/sad they went from being really interested in knowing me and my family to suddenly no interest at all. Wish I could say it was abnormal.

Turning away from these subjects, I'm pretty stoked right now because General Conference is coming. I'm trying to convince a friend of mine to go down to Provo so we can take part in our Mission's Reunion that Saturday, so I'm super hyped for that (even as I dread it) and also because GC has been an amazing experience for me since my Mission. I know some of you don't like Elder Holland, but he's kinda my personal fave because he's all about the whole "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" take on the Gospel and even though I will swear up and down in this thread that I am as progressive as it gets inside the Church, I love me a good ol' fashioned call to repentance and nobody does them quite as well as Elder Holland. Not to me.

I was always a Maxwell guy. But then I really found the bluster did more damage than good. So I ended up being a Hinckley/Hunter guy.

In the continuing saga of me being FHE dad, I keep trying to convince my roommates that there is nothing going on between me and the FHE mom, and her telling her parents I'm her "FHE hubby" didn't help my case. She's a great person, but I'm not really that into her that way. FHE was pretty cool though. Porter park was FULL of FHE groups and we elected to play us some good ol' fashioned soccer and sardines, so it worked out. Oh, and Book of Mormon class online whomps. In class it's cool because we can sit and talk and stuff, but taking a religion course online is, I dunno, it's so mechanical. It takes out all the emotion, all the life and just makes it this cold study thing and that's not fun. I prefer to get myself all caught up in the Scriptures as I study them. I like to talk about what Abraham was getting at with all that stuff about stars and whether or not you can make a case for certain doctrines being in the BoM and whether or not Jesus was a super badass who ninja dodged Pharisee attempts at stoning him and walked around with his cool Apostle bros and his totally not a harem or not.

But online it's just: Read Alma 32. Talk about faith and seeds. Post on discussion board. Done.
(which is a shame, because there's so much more in Alma 32 than that ONE VERSE.)

Why do I get the feeling this is the setup for a Mormon romantic comedy?

 

[CorvoSol]

Man I don't want to think about what category I'm in. Cause I think I know.

This reminds me of a recent event with an Elder's Quorum president. I recently moved and we got a visit from the primary president. She came and hung out for a while and asked why my 9 year old wasn't baptized I replied that while our names were still on the records we really didn't have any interest in being active. We appreciate the company and she could always come and hang but if she was hoping to reactivate us or see if we left because of sinning/offense or not understanding the teachings she'd be sorely disappointed. She was totally cool with it. She said she'd still stop by and invite my wife to enrichment.

About two weeks later I get a call from the Elder's Quorum President hearing that we had moved to the ward and the primary president told him about us and he was really anxious to meet us and see if we could talk about the church and all that. I told him the same thing, I was always up for company but he'd be disappointed if the thought this would be a reactivation campaign. He asked if he could send Home Teachers "If you know what that is." I replied that they were always welcome to visit but I knew they most likely wouldn't come. At which point he said, "Oh so you're familiar with the home teaching program." I noted that I was member for more than three decades so yeah I knew. So we talked a bit more he asked the typical stuff. Then he said, "So maybe I'll come and visit." I said he was always welcome to. He tried to share a few scriptures but after he saw that I knew them he quickly excused himself and said, "You know I'll probably not visit you."

And that was it. We never saw the Primary President or heard from Elder's Quorum President again. It's was sorta funny/sad they went from being really interested in knowing me and my family to suddenly no interest at all. Wish I could say it was abnormal.

Now see, here's my view of it. As a Missionary, much as I would have loved coming by, I likely wouldn't have because I had that whole 2 year time limit and I simply had other things I needed to do. But outside the mission? I'd go wherever someone was willing to accept me and do as much as they allowed. And I'd do this because once upon a time someone asked me if I was doing everything that I would want someone to do if it was "my soul on the line" so to speak and it was an eye-opener for me. I have, for example, a childhood friend who isn't active and left the church in something of a "big" way when he decided, weeks away from getting it, not to go Eagle or serve a mission. There are people in our ward who are still upset over it. But me? The way I see it is that we are still friends and that it's important he know that. I dunno if anybody else went and visited him when he was in town, but I made a point of doing it because heck, I grew up with him. I mentioned where the new church building was, but that was about it.

Another example: Marciana was a woman about my age who lived in an area where I worked on my mission. For reasons I never fully figured out, she, in spite of her strong testimony, had not been to church in years, even though it was walking distance from her home. I went to her place rather frequently because, frankly, Marciana was better company than some of the members in that area. One time we were flat broke and had no food and she took us in and fed us, and another time we were running from a guy we were sure was gonna rob us (at the very least) and she gave us shelter in our home. At the Last Day I will gladly speak up and cite these things in her defense, providing I'm not too busy covering my own defense, haha. But seriously, Marciana might not have been an active member, but I'll never forget the great things she did for us in our hour of need.

I was always a Maxwell guy. But then I really found the bluster did more damage than good. So I ended up being a Hinckley/Hunter guy.

I think it also has to do with our tastes. I honestly enjoy being taken down a few pegs every once in awhile, so Holland's style appeals to me. On the other hand, I met Nelson on my mission, and while I won't go into details of the meeting because I don't think an internet thread is the appropriate place to discuss that experience, I was seriously blown away and he was a much more soft-spoken guy than Holland.

They all have the same piercing gaze, though. My Mission President, too. Finally understand the meaning of being on the horns because there's just no lying to people who can stare you down like that.

Why do I get the feeling this is the setup for a Mormon romantic comedy?

Because if it weren't so unbearably tragic, my life would be a long string of Mormon romantic comedies. I've more or less made my peace with the fact that while I want the great love story of my life to play out like, some cosmic drama of the most beautiful and moving degree, it is doomed forever to be instead a comedy of errors.

Also, and I don't mean to preach in this thread, I always find it odd that Science classes are the ones that build up my faith the most. We had an interesting discussion about confirmation biases, the means by which people incorporate information contradictory or new to their world view into themselves and about the level of confidence vs experience/skill in something. So what I'm saying is that in a class about Issues in Global Climate Change, I was able to feel okay with the fact that some days I am not so confident in my testimony.

Which is not to say I feel my faith is shaken, but there are some days where I don't feel as sure I could move mountains as others. Except not as pompous as that.

 

[ronito]

Hi all, I had not see this posted anywhere and thought this might be a relevant place to put it.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/the-mexican-mormon-war-part-1

Vice have done a story about the Mormon colonies in Mexico where Mitt Romneys father was born and where some of his family still live and how they are under attack from the cartels as well as their opinion on Mitt Romneys election promises on immigration and drugs.

I found it very interesting.

This was fascinating. However, they never really touched much on the mormonism part. Are they mormons as in LDS mormons? Or are they still polygamists? They never really tell you. Also they don't go into blood atonement for speaking so much about it. That's fine for people like us that actually know what it means but for people not in the know it would just be confusing.

 

[Yoritomo]

This was fascinating. However, they never really touched much on the mormonism part. Are they mormons as in LDS mormons? Or are they still polygamists? They never really tell you. Also they don't go into blood atonement for speaking so much about it. That's fine for people like us that actually know what it means but for people not in the know it would just be confusing.

I've got a copy of that book somewhere around here. Mormon Theorycrafting at its finest. (He really really digs below the surface of just blood atonement and polygamy.)

 

[ronito]

They all have the same piercing gaze, though. My Mission President, too. Finally understand the meaning of being on the horns because there's just no lying to people who can stare you down like that.

I used to think that too, then I realized it was just my guilt. They're probably like "I've seen what you posted to the fanart thread Corvo. How could you?"

Cause you know, the brethren are totally GAFers.

Because if it weren't so unbearably tragic, my life would be a long string of Mormon romantic comedies. I've more or less made my peace with the fact that while I want the great love story of my life to play out like, some cosmic drama of the most beautiful and moving degree, it is doomed forever to be instead a comedy of errors.

Also, and I don't mean to preach in this thread, I always find it odd that Science classes are the ones that build up my faith the most. We had an interesting discussion about confirmation biases, the means by which people incorporate information contradictory or new to their world view into themselves and about the level of confidence vs experience/skill in something. So what I'm saying is that in a class about Issues in Global Climate Change, I was able to feel okay with the fact that some days I am not so confident in my testimony.

Which is not to say I feel my faith is shaken, but there are some days where I don't feel as sure I could move mountains as others. Except not as pompous as that.

I think it comes down to what you're willing to allow. For example my wife when she was going through her science core in college talked to her mom about how she (my wife) thought evolution was a cool thing and my MIL replied with "Well that's not what they teach in the temple so it's wrong."

And I can totally see her point. If you profess to believe everything in the temple unwaveringly then I can see why people are like "You can't believe in both." Further I also get the whole argument that some make about "It's just an analogy." But then I also understand the whole argument of "If you can make what you don't agree with 'just analogy' that's not religion."

I think it's a struggle. Certainly the church leadership hasn't pushed this struggle on people they tend to keep their mouth shut on the matter (as they should). But the culture does make it a struggle.

 

[CorvoSol]

I used to think that too, then I realized it was just my guilt. They're probably like "I've seen what you posted to the fanart thread Corvo. How could you?"

Cause you know, the brethren are totally GAFers.

Well now we know what my nightmares will be for the next month! "Brother, do you think the Savior would be happy of that fanart?" In reality I'd love to flippantly reply that I do think Jesus was down for a good laugh and hence the Duckbilled Platypus, but in reality I know I would cower and quiver, haha.

I think it comes down to what you're willing to allow. For example my wife when she was going through her science core in college talked to her mom about how she (my wife) thought evolution was a cool thing and my MIL replied with "Well that's not what they teach in the temple so it's wrong."

And I can totally see her point. If you profess to believe everything in the temple unwaveringly then I can see why people are like "You can't believe in both." Further I also get the whole argument that some make about "It's just an analogy." But then I also understand the whole argument of "If you can make what you don't agree with 'just analogy' that's not religion."

I think it's a struggle. Certainly the church leadership hasn't pushed this struggle on people they tend to keep their mouth shut on the matter (as they should). But the culture does make it a struggle.

See, I agree that it's a struggle and I'm greatful that the Church allows the members to have it. I enjoy that I can decide for myself on it. I believe that it was both but I don't know how. And the great thing is that if I'm wrong, that's okay. Brigham Young thought there were men in stove-pipe hats on the moon and that was okay. I know there are members of the Church who subscribe to "Hollow Earth" and that's okay. I like that we can be wrong sometimes. I have no idea how evolution and Adam mesh, but I believe both happened, cognitive dissonance or not.

SHOCKING BREAKING NEWS EVERYONE!!!! LOCK YOUR DOORS BECAUSE THEY HUGGIN' EVERYONE OUT HERE!

So basically, in Rexburg a rash of recent crimes has broken out involving young men who "drive-by-hug" young women on their way to classes. Harmless prank or sign of the deep, underlying repressed sexual tension of the entire student population? More at 11.

But yeah, one of my classmates mentioned that this happened to her today and it's pretty freaking creepy. Like, it's one thing to walk around with the "free hugs" sign because that's voluntary, but running around school hugging people is downright weird.

Spoiler

For the record I concede that there is a great deal of repressed sexuality or whatever 'round here. I just don't know if that's because we're LDS or American. My friend in Brazil claims the latter, since down there you don't have to be anything serious for any level of hanky-panky and here first base is fifty miles out to sea in patrolled, shark-infested waters.

 

[ronito]

Talking about sexual repression I had a job at BYU taking old computers and refurbishing them for student use. There was not one, not one single computer that didn't have porn on it. And I'm not just talking like playboy stuff. I don't kid when I say I learned nearly every fetish I know about from BYU.

Man and there were like 3 times I walked into the BYU bathroom only to hear someone jacking off in the stall.

I don't think that's normal american stuff at all.

Which is sorta opportune that this came up because the mormon expositor just released a new podcast (I listen to podcasts when I'm coding at work) that deals with the church's stance on sex. They have a guy and his wife who left the church, a guy who is still very much in the church and a mormon therapist who is studying to be a sex therapist. It's a pretty interesting discussion and is very frank. I personally find it very interesting, for a while I was seriously considering becoming a sex therapist so this queues up my interest on several fronts.

Here's the link if you wanna listen : http://mormonexpositor.com/

To sum up:
Pros:
- The church doesn't believe that sex was the original sin. Yay!
- The church is one of the only churches that still emphasize sexual purity

Cons:
- Just about everything else is toxic to its membership (sexual impurity =almost as bad as murder, modesty, etc) and borderlines on inappropriate (grown men asking teenaged kids about their masturbation habits).

This is just the first part of a series that they're doing. I'll be interested to hear the rest.

 

[Hitokage]

The cycle of shame wasn't fun.

 

[Enojado]

Talking about sexual repression I had a job at BYU taking old computers and refurbishing them for student use. There was not one, not one single computer that didn't have porn on it. And I'm not just talking like playboy stuff. I don't kid when I say I learned nearly every fetish I know about from BYU.

Man and there were like 3 times I walked into the BYU bathroom only to hear someone jacking off in the stall.

I don't think that's normal american stuff at all.

Which is sorta opportune that this came up because the mormon expositor just released a new podcast (I listen to podcasts when I'm coding at work) that deals with the church's stance on sex. They have a guy and his wife who left the church, a guy who is still very much in the church and a mormon therapist who is studying to be a sex therapist. It's a pretty interesting discussion and is very frank. I personally find it very interesting, for a while I was seriously considering becoming a sex therapist so this queues up my interest on several fronts.

Here's the link if you wanna listen : http://mormonexpositor.com/

To sum up:
Pros:
- The church doesn't believe that sex was the original sin. Yay!
- The church is one of the only churches that still emphasize sexual purity

Cons:
- Just about everything else is toxic to its membership (sexual impurity =almost as bad as murder, modesty, etc) and borderlines on inappropriate (grown men asking teenaged kids about their masturbation habits).

This is just the first part of a series that they're doing. I'll be interested to hear the rest.

I got busted at BYU for having porn on my computer. I had to go into the Honor Code office and talk to some guy. My "punishment" was that I had my university login revoked for a semester (no big deal b/c I used my friends' login info) and had to read a mormon book and write a report on it. I delayed doing the repot till near the end of the semester, which consisted of me quickly skimming the book and throwing together a report professing my sorrow and repentance. Ah, good times.

 

[bluemax]

The cycle of shame wasn't fun.

Amen to that.

 

[ronito]

I got busted at BYU for having porn on my computer. I had to go into the Honor Code office and talk to some guy. My "punishment" was that I had my university login revoked for a semester (no big deal b/c I used my friends' login info) and had to read a mormon book and write a report on it. I delayed doing the repot till near the end of the semester, which consisted of me quickly skimming the book and throwing together a report professing my sorrow and repentance. Ah, good times.

my first experience with porn at BYU was actually before I took the computer job. I had a different job in the school and one day I got bored and decided to look through the history on the computer. Found some foot fetish sites. I didn't want the honor code office to think it was me so I went to the honor code office and told them what had happened.

Then they said that they couldn't do anything without proof and essentially asked me to spy to see who it was and make sure I knew for sure so they could "help" them.

I left right away. Spying on other people seemed worse than looking at pics of women's feet on penises.

 

[Hitokage]

my first experience with porn at BYU was actually before I took the computer job. I had a different job in the school and one day I got bored and decided to look through the history on the computer. Found some foot fetish sites. I didn't want the honor code office to think it was me so I went to the honor code office and told them what had happened.

Then they said that they couldn't do anything without proof and essentially asked me to spy to see who it was and make sure I knew for sure so they could "help" them.

I left right away. Spying on other people seemed worse than looking at pics of women's feet on penises.

Honor code voyeurism.

 

[CorvoSol]

Yeah okay but I mean these guys just run up and hug girls at random. WHUT?

I feel though that there does need to be more open and frank discussion about sex in the Church, though, because it seems wrong to me that my mission was the first time a Church Leader ever really sat me down and talked to me about this stuff. Which was great because my Mission President was an adult I trust very much, but I dunno, I think that, given the route the Church takes, it needs to reassess its means of handling the situation.


FUN STORY BECAUSE I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS HAPPENED: So I ran my mouth off a bit too much tonight. We were coming back from our FHE sisters' pad (sidenote, the guys will not stop calling me and the FHE mom "Papa Bear" and "Mama Bear" and referring to the other FHE members as our "kids" and frankly being "shipped" is the weirdest feeling in the world so I apologize to Orayn and Technomancer here.) and I see these three guys dressed up in well, country-western attire. And I, being from the NW where the salt air fills your lungs, could not help but ask them "Did we miss the rodeo?"

So okay, that was a stupid thing for this crow to do, and I admit that it was probably a little rude. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT is pure comedy: Two of the guys just keep walking, but one of the guys slows down as he passes me, stops, and goes "Did we miss the nerdfest?" First off, yeah, I started it but really, who stops in the middle of a cross-walk to start something? What kind of doofus kid in REXBURG IDAHO thinks he's such hot stuff that he's gotta defend his six-gallon hat and crocodile boots? Second, what kind of a craptacular come-back is "Nerdfest"? Like, dude, I burned you, and all you have is the lamest of comebacks? I'm embarrassed FOR you!

So I laughed, without breaking stride, said, "Yeah, you did. It was fun."

But honestly, I just can't get passed the kid stopping in the middle of the cross-walk to try and start something. You're wearing a six-gallon hat, crocodile skin boots, blue jeans and a button up shirt, and you're in REXBURG IDAHO. You aren't cool, dude. I'm sorry, you just, you really aren't.

Especially not if those clothes are line-dancin' clothes. I mean, c'mon. Line dancing is the worst practice this Church has ever forced people into.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

As a Mormon who's lived in Utah for the past 20 years, you guys have the weirdest stories. I've never experience stuff like this. Most of my childhood was in AZ though, completely different culture.

 

[SillyEskimo]

Talking about sexual repression I had a job at BYU taking old computers and refurbishing them for student use. There was not one, not one single computer that didn't have porn on it. And I'm not just talking like playboy stuff. I don't kid when I say I learned nearly every fetish I know about from BYU.

Man and there were like 3 times I walked into the BYU bathroom only to hear someone jacking off in the stall.

I don't think that's normal american stuff at all.

Which is sorta opportune that this came up because the mormon expositor just released a new podcast (I listen to podcasts when I'm coding at work) that deals with the church's stance on sex. They have a guy and his wife who left the church, a guy who is still very much in the church and a mormon therapist who is studying to be a sex therapist. It's a pretty interesting discussion and is very frank. I personally find it very interesting, for a while I was seriously considering becoming a sex therapist so this queues up my interest on several fronts.

Here's the link if you wanna listen : http://mormonexpositor.com/

To sum up:
Pros:
- The church doesn't believe that sex was the original sin. Yay!
- The church is one of the only churches that still emphasize sexual purity

Cons:
- Just about everything else is toxic to its membership (sexual impurity =almost as bad as murder, modesty, etc) and borderlines on inappropriate (grown men asking teenaged kids about their masturbation habits).

This is just the first part of a series that they're doing. I'll be interested to hear the rest.

Good stuff. I was disfellowshipped for having sex and admitting to masturbation without regret or intent to stop either practice. I was told the next time I came to church they would pull me aside and question me again. If I was still unrepentant, I would be excommunicated. Sex with a woman is the same as rape and murder afterall. I never went back.

Even as a 17yr old young man, I brought up obvious points that made every man in that room visually uncomfortable. Here was a simple and obvious observation I made: In the past I had stolen a comic book from a store. The guilt ate me alive for years. It was an extremely heavy burden to bear. Meanwhile, I had sexual relations with 8 different girls by that point and the amount of guilt I felt was exactley zero. In fact, it had the exact opposite effect. I felt more alive, confident, and happy than I had ever thought possible. How was this possible given the fact that sex before marriage is equal to taking a human life?!? It made absolutely no sense what so ever. The answer? Satan has a deep, deep hold on me and is blocking the Holy Spirit from giving me the heart wretching guilt I deserve and should be feeling. That was the answer? What about all the positives I just threw at you? Bull. Shit.

Another argument in my hearing was "Why is sex like murder or rape?". The answer was because I was taking away something that the woman could never get back. That is a serious LOL answer. My response? You guys should meet my first GF. She's the one who did all the taking. Every single step was pushed forward by her. I was merely an extremely eager partner. And what about the girls I slept with that had already lost their "innocence"? Mute responses from everyone in there except for the Bishop that tried to awkwardly limp through a half made up on the spot answer. None of these men were prepared for my frank and brazen honesty. None of them were prepared for my defiance or knowledge of sex and intimacy with women. Furthermore, I would bet any amount of money in the world that at age 17 I already had more sexual experience, knowledge, and personal conviction than any man in that room. I also asked about anal, oral, and mutual masturbation. There was no concrete answer given on any of them other than to dig my hole deeper by bringing up the fact I jacked off seemingly every waking moment of the day.

Here was another question that made them all stare at their feet. "If having sex is so unbelievably horrible and evil, why hasn't it been mentioned ONCE in any lesson, meeting, sermon, young men's activity, or ever acknowledged in any shape or form by the church?". The answer? "We have failed you. Sorry." (This was said with a heavy heart and I bet the Bishop did some real soul searching.)

Karma - About 20yrs later, in an auto repair shop waiting room, I ran into the man that was the First Counsler during my trial. After friendly hellos, we sat alone in silence for a couple of minutes before he bursted out about how racked with guilt he was over my disfellowship and how it drove me from the church. It rocked the very foundation of his faith. He left the church a little over a year later. He told me it was my personal testimony about the beauty of sex, love, and everything good that has ever come from it for myself and those I slept with that really made him start thinking about what and why the church was actually teaching. My rebuttles in court were pure, honest, and natural while the church stances were the exact opposite. He couldn't get it out of his head. He asked for my forgiveness and I shook his hand as he actually shed tears.

I would later learn that the Bishop's daughter, who was 15 at the time, had just been found to be pregnant from a black dude at her school. Apparently, the Bishop was on a personal and private witch hunt. I was the only one out of the other 7 male youth members in my age group that took the bait. My fellow church friends simply lied in their temple interviews when asked about sex, masturbation, weed, and booze. That particular interview was the only time any questions of that natire had ever come up. When I told my friends I had answered honestly, they said I was crazy! Many of these same men went on missions, attended BYU, and ended up in their own little Mormon utopias. I have zero regrets. The truth had set me free.

 

[SillyEskimo]

Follow-up post

My parents were in the middle of trying to adopt a baby through the church. Their hands were tied. They did not rally in my defence, instead turning a blind eye to the entire ordeal. This created quite a rift in the family as you would imagine. I was completely alone. I had my faith yanked out from under me and no one to talk to about it. This lead to several years of independent soul searching and religious study. Only years later after both my parents left the church did I discover how deeply that situation had wounded them. My mother was pulled aside and question in detail and she said it was mortifying and enraging. However, due to the potential adoption she had to grin and bear it. She was especially angered knonwing that the Bishop's daughter was a known whore (her words, not mine!) and no one ever did a thing about it. She did not appreciate the church telling her how to parent her child when she knew that I was, by all counts, an upstanding and amazing guy (if I do say so myself!).

It was a life changing event that excelerated my maturity in sexual, religious, and personal growth by leaps and bounds and it was all done in a very short amount of time. I'm eternally grateful for the timing and circumstances that this event came to take place.

 

[ronito]

As a Mormon who's lived in Utah for the past 20 years, you guys have the weirdest stories. I've never experience stuff like this. Most of my childhood was in AZ though, completely different culture.

Well for me you have to keep in mind this was Utah in the late 80s through the mid to late 90s. It was VERY much a different place then.

Also I think it's just me. I tend to get into the weirdest situations and people like to confess to me as well.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Yeah, growing up in Utah and having a very, very diverse group of friends, I still never say 99% of the stuff people in this thread say that they commonly faced. Ah well, some of us are put through different courses in life and it's up to us to decide how we want to respond to external influences on our attitudes.

 

[ronito]

Yeah, growing up in Utah and having a very, very diverse group of friends, I still never say 99% of the stuff people in this thread say that they commonly faced. Ah well, some of us are put through different courses in life and it's up to us to decide how we want to respond to external influences on our attitudes.

Like I said I think for me it was a timing thing. 80s to 90s Utah County was nothing like current day Utah County. Also I grew up in VERY conservative circles which I think that had a lot to do with it. So its very different then what most people tend to experience it was deep within the rabbit hole.

Let me give you an example. Just a few weeks ago I had some family visit. They started talking about how the civil war would've been averted if Joseph Smith had become president and about how Polygamy was a divine institution that is still a part of God's plan. The were essentially able to quote Elder Holland's last talk nearly word for word.

Once we visited one of my wife's friends (I lost all mine when I left the church except for one or two) and she had on her Calendar all the dates that the 12 were publically speaking close to her and where and checked them off as she did.

And to me these aren't even abnormal instances. So it stands to reason that if you're really deep in the "rabbit hole" you see weirder stuff. And like I said, if you read my threads you'll find strange stuff just happens to me.