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[Jeff-DSA]

I only lived in Provo for about 6 months while attending UVSC (UVU now), and I sold my apartment contract and moved down to Springville. All in all, I lived in Utah County for about two years. Provo was pretty bad, but Springville was quite nice.

Growing up though, it was all in Wood Cross and Bountiful, north of Salt Lake City. About 1/3 of my friends weren't members of the church, but they really weren't treated any differently than my friends who were members of the church. And on the flip side, they weren't any less of "good guys" than the member kids and the member kids weren't any more moral.

A lot of it comes down to how your parents and your friends' parents react to things, I guess. The first time my friends Zach and Lon came over (Zach had a purple mohawk and Lon had dyed red hair with a somewhat inflammatory Bad Religion t-shirt on), my parents could have discouraged it. Instead they were totally cool and welcoming. More of my friends from that circle used to hang out at my place, and even my most sheltered of LDS friends opened up to that group. Heck, while I was gone on my mission, they used to drop in and just hang out with my parents for an hour or so 2-3 times a month or they'd eat dinner there.

I just didn't grow up around people who shut themselves out or wagged their finger toward non-members or members who had issues, I guess. I don't know many that did. I'd hear stories about "the kid who couldn't play with others because he wasn't a Mormon," but they were typically legend and nobody actually knew that kid or their family.

Sucks that people deal with intolerance, wherever it stems from. I just didn't grow up around a lot of it, and I'm always grateful for that.

 

[ronito]

Good stuff. I was disfellowshipped for having sex and admitting to masturbation without regret or intent to stop either practice. I was told the next time I came to church they would pull me aside and question me again. If I was still unrepentant, I would be excommunicated. Sex with a woman is the same as rape and murder afterall. I never went back.

Even as a 17yr old young man, I brought up obvious points that made every man in that room visually uncomfortable. Here was a simple and obvious observation I made: In the past I had stolen a comic book from a store. The guilt ate me alive for years. It was an extremely heavy burden to bear. Meanwhile, I had sexual relations with 8 different girls by that point and the amount of guilt I felt was exactley zero. In fact, it had the exact opposite effect. I felt more alive, confident, and happy than I had ever thought possible. How was this possible given the fact that sex before marriage is equal to taking a human life?!? It made absolutely no sense what so ever. The answer? Satan has a deep, deep hold on me and is blocking the Holy Spirit from giving me the heart wretching guilt I deserve and should be feeling. That was the answer? What about all the positives I just threw at you? Bull. Shit.

Another argument in my hearing was "Why is sex like murder or rape?". The answer was because I was taking away something that the woman could never get back. That is a serious LOL answer. My response? You guys should meet my first GF. She's the one who did all the taking. Every single step was pushed forward by her. I was merely an extremely eager partner. And what about the girls I slept with that had already lost their "innocence"? Mute responses from everyone in there except for the Bishop that tried to awkwardly limp through a half made up on the spot answer. None of these men were prepared for my frank and brazen honesty. None of them were prepared for my defiance or knowledge of sex and intimacy with women. Furthermore, I would bet any amount of money in the world that at age 17 I already had more sexual experience, knowledge, and personal conviction than any man in that room. I also asked about anal, oral, and mutual masturbation. There was no concrete answer given on any of them other than to dig my hole deeper by bringing up the fact I jacked off seemingly every waking moment of the day.

Here was another question that made them all stare at their feet. "If having sex is so unbelievably horrible and evil, why hasn't it been mentioned ONCE in any lesson, meeting, sermon, young men's activity, or ever acknowledged in any shape or form by the church?". The answer? "We have failed you. Sorry." (This was said with a heavy heart and I bet the Bishop did some real soul searching.)

Karma - About 20yrs later, in an auto repair shop waiting room, I ran into the man that was the First Counsler during my trial. After friendly hellos, we sat alone in silence for a couple of minutes before he bursted out about how racked with guilt he was over my disfellowship and how it drove me from the church. It rocked the very foundation of his faith. He left the church a little over a year later. He told me it was my personal testimony about the beauty of sex, love, and everything good that has ever come from it for myself and those I slept with that really made him start thinking about what and why the church was actually teaching. My rebuttles in court were pure, honest, and natural while the church stances were the exact opposite. He couldn't get it out of his head. He asked for my forgiveness and I shook his hand as he actually shed tears.

I would later learn that the Bishop's daughter, who was 15 at the time, had just been found to be pregnant from a black dude at her school. Apparently, the Bishop was on a personal and private witch hunt. I was the only one out of the other 7 male youth members in my age group that took the bait. My fellow church friends simply lied in their temple interviews when asked about sex, masturbation, weed, and booze. That particular interview was the only time any questions of that natire had ever come up. When I told my friends I had answered honestly, they said I was crazy! Many of these same men went on missions, attended BYU, and ended up in their own little Mormon utopias. I have zero regrets. The truth had set me free.

Wow what a story. I don't know whether to say I'm glad for your or sorry you had to go through that.

A few things from my own experience.

For me there was seldom a lesson for me in young mens where chastity wasn't mentioned. But it was always mentioned in a way of missions. "If you mess around you can't go on your mission." Essentially our lessons comprised of "You guys need to prepare for your missions so keep yourself clean." Then we'd talk about basketball. That is of course with the exception of the "Sin next to MURDER!" lesson.

But I'm glad you stood up for yourself. I don't know if you listened to the podcast but there's a section where the therapist brings up a very good point where she says that she wonders if the strict view that leaders have is because the church hasn't really detailed an exact approach so they just do what they think they should even if they feel it's wrong. The active member was talking about how every young man was asked about mastrbation in order to do baptisms for the dead he said they felt uncomfortable about doing so.) Since the church has just said "It's bad" local leaders are free to interpret how bad it is.

As to your last paragraph, it is infuriating. I didn't go on my mission for several reasons (I was an international student, hadn't gotten "the answer") but one of them was that I mastrbated and I told my bishop. It was terrible and as Hito said a cycle of shame. When I saw my friends that got back and they were like "Why didn't you go?" and I confessed my dirty shameful secret they were like "Oh yeah I had that problem too. I just didn't tell them."

I was like WTF?! I endured years of shame and torment and not to mention being mission aged but not a missionary during the height of the "Every member a missionary!" at BYU I was totally shunned and then to find that these "Peter Priesthoods" had the same problem but just lied about it or didn't mention it and they were fawned over as to how righteous they are while I was viewed as broken. Man that pissed me off.

 

[Yoritomo]

Wow what a story. I don't know whether to say I'm glad for your or sorry you had to go through that.

A few things from my own experience.

For me there was seldom a lesson for me in young mens where chastity wasn't mentioned. But it was always mentioned in a way of missions. "If you mess around you can't go on your mission." Essentially our lessons comprised of "You guys need to prepare for your missions so keep yourself clean." Then we'd talk about basketball. That is of course with the exception of the "Sin next to MURDER!" lesson.

But I'm glad you stood up for yourself. I don't know if you listened to the podcast but there's a section where the therapist brings up a very good point where she says that she wonders if the strict view that leaders have is because the church hasn't really detailed an exact approach so they just do what they think they should even if they feel it's wrong. The active member was talking about how every young man was asked about mastrbation in order to do baptisms for the dead he said they felt uncomfortable about doing so.) Since the church has just said "It's bad" local leaders are free to interpret how bad it is.

As to your last paragraph, it is infuriating. I didn't go on my mission for several reasons (I was an international student, hadn't gotten "the answer") but one of them was that I mastrbated and I told my bishop. It was terrible and as Hito said a cycle of shame. When I saw my friends that got back and they were like "Why didn't you go?" and I confessed my dirty shameful secret they were like "Oh yeah I had that problem too. I just didn't tell them."

I was like WTF?! I endured years of shame and torment and not to mention being mission aged but not a missionary during the height of the "Every member a missionary!" at BYU I was totally shunned and then to find that these "Peter Priesthoods" had the same problem but just lied about it or didn't mention it and they were fawned over as to how righteous they are while I was viewed as broken. Man that pissed me off.

Dude, everyone had that problem. Hell we had strict order from our mission president NOT to read "The Miracle of Forgiveness" because it caused emotional problems and breakdowns amongst some of missionaries.

 

[ronito]

Dude, everyone had that problem. Hell we had strict order from our mission president NOT to read "The Miracle of Forgiveness" because it caused emotional problems and breakdowns amongst some of missionaries.

Whereas I was ordered to read it and write a report on it. Twice.

 

[Yoritomo]

No one should be made to feel that way.

That sucks man. Hurts even more when you understand that the guy who started it all was a pervert with control issues.

 

[CorvoSol]

Whereas I was ordered to read it and write a report on it. Twice.

See, it's funny, because on my mission the only reason we were banned from reading things is because it drove us all insane. One time someone had hidden a copy of "Teaching: No Greater Calling" under his bed, and another had hidden the marriage manual among the books on the apartment's shelf. And when guys read these things, they'd start spouting off stuff that nobody could understand. This is when I first found out about members who believed in "Hollow Earth". Like, I looked at what the guy read, looked at him, and I'd be all, "Dude, all this is talking about is the Second Coming" and he'd be all "NOOOOOO IT MEANS THAT THE LOST TRIBES WILL COME OUT OF THE CENTER OF THE EARTH RIGHT HERE IT SAYS IT!" And I'd be all, "Dude, no, it doesn't."

There was always talk of a legendary "Church Manual" making the rounds, too, that supposedly outlined all kinds of stuff in it but I didn't care to know, because D&C was already tough for me to wrap my brain around.

But yeah, it was pretty hilarious to see how some guys reacted to the extra books and stuff. "IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW ELDER!" Hahaha. Man, I miss that. I miss the cockamamie, apostate "doctrines" that some Elders would whip up, the crazy rumors and urban mission legends. Granted, BYUI manages to maintain some of it. My favorite is the veiled sense of superiority that so many have here. "Did you hear that President Clark was considering letting women wear flip-flops on campus?" "I did, but then he said he didn't want to be like that other BYU." The flip-flops issue is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Mostly because I don't know why it's a rule, and I don't know why anyone cares to contest it even if it is one. Flip-flops are dumb, and they make women have craggy feet.

I'm more upset by the fact that it's a CITY ORDINANCE THAT I CAN'T THROW SNOWBALLS. I'm taking that one to President Monson at General Conference. I don't care that the Prophet has no right or reason to interfere with the laws of the land, or that disobedience to said laws is contrary to Church teachings: IT'S A WASTE OF PERFECTLY GOOD SNOW.

 

[olore]

So... mormonism. A whole lot of do this - do that because it was said it is supposed to be like this and that and if we don´t understand why and we don`t have an answer it isn´t meant for us to understand?

 

[CorvoSol]

So... mormonism. A whole lot of do this - do that because it was said it is supposed to be like this and that and if we don´t understand why and we don`t have an answer it isn´t meant for us to understand?

1)Lots of stuff in life is "Do this do that". You can describe more or less every organization that way. Baseball teams, businesses, lots of people do things because they're told to and without much reason.

You could really not have picked a more generic means of describing something beyond maybe simplifying it to "So Mormons. They do things, right?"

2)Plenty of reasons are supplied. Not all are satisfactory, not all are officially the Church's explanation. And one or two of them are, sadly, the equivalent of the Magic Eightball telling you to try again later.

It's a religion. It has its ups and its downs. Lots of people are happy, have spiritual experiences, and carry on with the prescribed methods of worship. Some don't. Some do and still leave for a variety of reasons as long as the sun is hot. There are people in it who don't feel it but stay because what else are they to do? There are people who leave and become violently opposed. There are people who leave it but still believe it. There are people who are in it but still violently opposed. This is something I call the human experience, because you'll find it everywhere.

As we've mentioned several pages back, you have the stereotypical Mormons of the Corridor who eat their green jello and dress like Napoleon Dynamite and so on and so forth. You also have Mormons in the far flung corners of the Earth who are as radically different as can be. All of them make stupid mistakes, some of them are very public mistakes, some of them very private. One or two atrocities are committed in the Church's name, lots of charity gets down without notice (which isn't to say that there isn't charity that's readily advertised as well.).

But in the briefest of terms, the mainstream members of the Latter Day Saint movements largest Church believe that God, Christ, and the Spirit are separate entities, that God chooses a man on Earth to be His Prophet, or the leader of His people, and that God did so in the early 1800s. They believe that He still does, and that the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants (I believe there is dispute beyond these three in the various sects) are evidence of that claim.

Past that there's Temples and Priesthood and all manner of strange stories that either make it the Expanded Universe of Christianity, or the weirdest and kookiest thing this side of Scientology.

I would hesitate to say that Mormons do things solely because they're told to, though, not because there aren't people who do that or because there aren't cases in which people do that, but because the Church does, in fact, encourage its members to ask God on their own about things in several key instances. So while the "Do as your told" aspect of religion in general is preserved, there is also a great deal of "solve it yourself" in the Church as well.

I hate to sound cross, but I'm doing math homework and Java is being a little punk, so I'm out of sorts ATM. Undoubtedly the others will be here to help you with other questions and provide alternative opinions to mine, thus helping you get the full picture. I have to skedaddle to class, though.

 

[Brianemone]

Wow what a story. I don't know whether to say I'm glad for your or sorry you had to go through that.

A few things from my own experience.

For me there was seldom a lesson for me in young mens where chastity wasn't mentioned. But it was always mentioned in a way of missions. "If you mess around you can't go on your mission." Essentially our lessons comprised of "You guys need to prepare for your missions so keep yourself clean." Then we'd talk about basketball. That is of course with the exception of the "Sin next to MURDER!" lesson.

But I'm glad you stood up for yourself. I don't know if you listened to the podcast but there's a section where the therapist brings up a very good point where she says that she wonders if the strict view that leaders have is because the church hasn't really detailed an exact approach so they just do what they think they should even if they feel it's wrong. The active member was talking about how every young man was asked about mastrbation in order to do baptisms for the dead he said they felt uncomfortable about doing so.) Since the church has just said "It's bad" local leaders are free to interpret how bad it is.

As to your last paragraph, it is infuriating. I didn't go on my mission for several reasons (I was an international student, hadn't gotten "the answer") but one of them was that I mastrbated and I told my bishop. It was terrible and as Hito said a cycle of shame. When I saw my friends that got back and they were like "Why didn't you go?" and I confessed my dirty shameful secret they were like "Oh yeah I had that problem too. I just didn't tell them."

I was like WTF?! I endured years of shame and torment and not to mention being mission aged but not a missionary during the height of the "Every member a missionary!" at BYU I was totally shunned and then to find that these "Peter Priesthoods" had the same problem but just lied about it or didn't mention it and they were fawned over as to how righteous they are while I was viewed as broken. Man that pissed me off.

Got to love the massive hypocrisy, I think it was the single biggest factor in me questioning my faith. I always had questions that were never answered but as a good mormon boy I didn't let those stop me.

I think after my mission and getting married in the temple the thing that bugged me the most was how guilty I was made to feel for some pre marital heavy petting (with my wife). We waited to have sex, but the fact that we were encouraged to have children straight away (at 19 and 23) as being the right thing to do yet it was immoral that we got a little carried away while making out. It took about 2 years for us to even feel comfortable talking about sex and still both have issues. The difference now is that we are aware it wasn't right, and we won't be perpetuating the guilt onto our children.

 

[olore]

Thanks for the answer Corvo. I`m kinda good friends with a high ranking Mormon (who do things right?!?) here where I live and are hanging out with his gang sometimes. Not sure if they just see me as that dude who isn`t in the club yet or there´s that dude who might join us soon... What irks me is that I get that the faith isn´t about material things and I kinda get a feeling that they look down upon me/us who aren´t in the secret club yet because we covet petty things like nice watches, consoles, apartments, cars, computers et al, and still the dudes I sometimes hang out with (as in go to a movie and then everybody dissappears ASAP) are all multi-million earners with very expensive and nice cars, watches and so on. It doesn`t mesh

 

[radios shipping overview]

Thanks for the answer Corvo. I`m kinda good friends with a high ranking Mormon (who do things right?!?) here where I live and are hanging out with his gang sometimes. Not sure if they just see me as that dude who isn`t in the club yet or there´s that dude who might join us soon... What irks me is that I get that the faith isn´t about material things and I kinda get a feeling that they look down upon me/us who aren´t in the secret club yet because we covet petty things like nice watches, consoles, apartments, cars, computers et al, and still the dudes I sometimes hang out with (as in go to a movie and then everybody dissappears ASAP) are all multi-million earners with very expensive and nice cars, watches and so on. It doesn`t mesh

LDS are certainly not anti-materialistic as part of their beliefs. Much business and industry that goes on in Utah happens with the help of church connections, and plenty of Mormons there have nice houses and nice cars. Also, Mitt.

 

[CorvoSol]

Thanks for the answer Corvo. I`m kinda good friends with a high ranking Mormon (who do things right?!?) here where I live and are hanging out with his gang sometimes. Not sure if they just see me as that dude who isn`t in the club yet or there´s that dude who might join us soon... What irks me is that I get that the faith isn´t about material things and I kinda get a feeling that they look down upon me/us who aren´t in the secret club yet because we covet petty things like nice watches, consoles, apartments, cars, computers et al, and still the dudes I sometimes hang out with (as in go to a movie and then everybody dissappears ASAP) are all multi-million earners with very expensive and nice cars, watches and so on. It doesn`t mesh

Hahaha, I needed that, man. Thanks for cheering up my day.

It's possible they do, but I can't see why they would. Latter-Day Saints run the gamut of rich to poor. They get plastic surgery, they have nice cars (or terrible ones, as my case will be) and some of us have embarrassingly expensive Lego collections.

I'll level with you: I have four close friends who aren't members. I had five but that's a long, terrible story of heart-ache and bad decisions we can all discuss some other day. These four friends of mine drink. They've been drinking since probably before we were all twenty-one. Now, I cannot stand the smell of beer. I just can't. It repulses me. But I don't look down on them when they drink usually. Last year one of my friends' mother died and she was taking it VERY hard and she drank a LOT. Now, at the time, and I regret this deeply, I didn't understand that and initially I did look down on her for her drinking habit.

Then I realized one of my best friends' life was falling into pieces and the drinking was a way for her to numb that loss. Then my head came together and I started helping her out of her rut. Now, when she drinks, it isn't that same dangerous drinking it was, and I really honestly don't mind it. Sometimes they tease me and offer it to me, and I politely or comically refuse and we carry on doing whatever.

The reason I bring this up is just to illustrate that not all Mormons look down on others for doing things they wouldn't. I would not drink, but as long as my friends drink responsibly, I don't mind it at all. They're my friends, they have been since I was 13 (one of them since I was 10). They all respect and accommodate my weird religion, and I respect their life styles.

If you think there's a problem, though, you should talk to them about it. Good communication never hurt anyone.

 

[SUPREME1]

Ronito reinforcing my beliefs that all computer repair dudes are creepy snoopers.

Eww.

 

[ronito]

LDS are certainly not anti-materialistic as part of their beliefs.

Reminded me of this gem:

. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attends to the total needs of its members,” says Keith B. McMullin, who for 37 years served within the Mormon leadership and now heads a church-owned holding company, Deseret Management Corporation (DMC), an umbrella organization for many of the church’s for-profit businesses. “We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”

 

[CorvoSol]

YESSSSSS! My comp. said he's down for heading down to Provo this weekend. WE GONNA CRASH THIS REUNION IDAHO STYLE!!!!

Spoiler

Idaho has no style. NONE.

 

[deviljho]

I am not Mormon, but this thread is cool. We need more awareness and religious tolerance.

 

[Exuro]

Man the masturbation stories brought me back to when I was living with my parents. I remember getting "caught" and having to go talk to the bishop about it. I had the absolute worst guilt feeling in my life that day. Absolutely horrible feeling trying to talk to the bishop who I barely knew since he was fairly new to the position and try to explain what I did while basically bawling. It was really rough as he didn't give me any sort of reassurance that "it's going to be alright" and instead was just a "yeah you did a bad thing".

 

[speculawyer]

Good stuff. I was disfellowshipped for having sex and admitting to masturbation without regret or intent to stop either practice. I was told the next time I came to church they would pull me aside and question me again. If I was still unrepentant, I would be excommunicated. Sex with a woman is the same as rape and murder afterall. I never went back.

Even as a 17yr old young man, I brought up obvious points that made every man in that room visually uncomfortable. Here was a simple and obvious observation I made: In the past I had stolen a comic book from a store. The guilt ate me alive for years. It was an extremely heavy burden to bear. Meanwhile, I had sexual relations with 8 different girls by that point and the amount of guilt I felt was exactley zero. In fact, it had the exact opposite effect. I felt more alive, confident, and happy than I had ever thought possible. How was this possible given the fact that sex before marriage is equal to taking a human life?!? It made absolutely no sense what so ever. The answer? Satan has a deep, deep hold on me and is blocking the Holy Spirit from giving me the heart wretching guilt I deserve and should be feeling. That was the answer? What about all the positives I just threw at you? Bull. Shit.

Another argument in my hearing was "Why is sex like murder or rape?". The answer was because I was taking away something that the woman could never get back. That is a serious LOL answer. My response? You guys should meet my first GF. She's the one who did all the taking. Every single step was pushed forward by her. I was merely an extremely eager partner. And what about the girls I slept with that had already lost their "innocence"? Mute responses from everyone in there except for the Bishop that tried to awkwardly limp through a half made up on the spot answer. None of these men were prepared for my frank and brazen honesty. None of them were prepared for my defiance or knowledge of sex and intimacy with women. Furthermore, I would bet any amount of money in the world that at age 17 I already had more sexual experience, knowledge, and personal conviction than any man in that room. I also asked about anal, oral, and mutual masturbation. There was no concrete answer given on any of them other than to dig my hole deeper by bringing up the fact I jacked off seemingly every waking moment of the day.

Here was another question that made them all stare at their feet. "If having sex is so unbelievably horrible and evil, why hasn't it been mentioned ONCE in any lesson, meeting, sermon, young men's activity, or ever acknowledged in any shape or form by the church?". The answer? "We have failed you. Sorry." (This was said with a heavy heart and I bet the Bishop did some real soul searching.)

Karma - About 20yrs later, in an auto repair shop waiting room, I ran into the man that was the First Counsler during my trial. After friendly hellos, we sat alone in silence for a couple of minutes before he bursted out about how racked with guilt he was over my disfellowship and how it drove me from the church. It rocked the very foundation of his faith. He left the church a little over a year later. He told me it was my personal testimony about the beauty of sex, love, and everything good that has ever come from it for myself and those I slept with that really made him start thinking about what and why the church was actually teaching. My rebuttles in court were pure, honest, and natural while the church stances were the exact opposite. He couldn't get it out of his head. He asked for my forgiveness and I shook his hand as he actually shed tears.

I would later learn that the Bishop's daughter, who was 15 at the time, had just been found to be pregnant from a black dude at her school. Apparently, the Bishop was on a personal and private witch hunt. I was the only one out of the other 7 male youth members in my age group that took the bait. My fellow church friends simply lied in their temple interviews when asked about sex, masturbation, weed, and booze. That particular interview was the only time any questions of that natire had ever come up. When I told my friends I had answered honestly, they said I was crazy! Many of these same men went on missions, attended BYU, and ended up in their own little Mormon utopias. I have zero regrets. The truth had set me free.

WOW!

That was an awesome read. Thanks!

That should be a story on This American Life.

 

[ronito]

Big news at General Conference?

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/09/upcoming-general-conference.html

I've heard from several sources that Elder Russell M. Nelson has announced to a number of Stake Presidents that President Thomas S. Monson has received a revelation that will affect every man, woman, and child in the church. This revelation is supposed to be announced in the upcoming general conference.

The last great revelatory program introduced in general conference was the Perpetual Education Fund announced by President Gordon B. Hinckley. That program is profoundly Christ-like.

During His ministry, Christ blessed lives in practical ways. He cured lepers; allowing them to return to society. He cured blindness; rescuing the blessed from darkness. He cured the lame; liberating them from physical captivity. His goodness conferred life-changing blessings, making practical changes to the lives of those he blessed.

Similarly, the Perpetual Education Fund has conferred practical, life-changing blessings. It mirrors the way Christ blessed people.

Not all beneficiaries of the Perpetual Education Fund have repaid their interest-free loans. Not all have remained active in the church. That is of no consequence. The goodness of the program is in the giving of the blessing. It does not matter whether those who are blessed are grateful. The church's (our) acts of Christ-like generosity is unchanged whether the beneficiary ever returns to thank us. Nine of the ten lepers never thanked the Lord. There is little evidence in the scriptures of the many who were healed by the Lord then becoming faithful disciples. The program is Christ-like. Its greatness consists in conferring a blessing. The Lord gives the sunshine and rain to all, the good and the bad. Very few are grateful to Him for that. It does not stop Him from being good and continuing in sustaining us all from moment to moment.

I encourage all to listen to upcoming general conference.

Take it with a huge grain of salt almost every General Conference people are like "They're gonna announce something HUGE!!" and then nothing.

 

[Bornstellar]

Big news at General Conference?

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/09/upcoming-general-conference.html

Take it with a huge grain of salt almost every General Conference people are like "They're gonna announce something HUGE!!" and then nothing.

I'll believe it when I hear it at Conference. Not before via hearsay.

 

[CorvoSol]

Big news at General Conference?

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/09/upcoming-general-conference.html

Take it with a huge grain of salt almost every General Conference people are like "They're gonna announce something HUGE!!" and then nothing.

Sez you, cara. I've heard some things that I thought were pretty huge during GC.

Of course, my not having paid attention to GC for 20 years and then suddenly paying extreme attention to it could have an effect on that.

Also, my MP said we shouldn't shake hands with the thumbs hooked (hard to explain it but you know how you usually point your fingers down in a handshake except those ones where it's like "BRO!" and you point your fingers up?) but then we saw Pres. Monson and Pres. Uchdorf do it in a General Conference.

REVOLUTIONARY, RONITO. IT WAS THE TALK OF THE MISH FOR LIKE, A WEEK.

But my hype for GC at present is tied to the fact that I AM GOIN' TO PROVO NEXT WEEKEND so I can attend MY MISH REUNION and make failed attempts to hit on the ever adorable Sisters Olsen and Riggs!

MY BODY IS NOT ACTUALLY READY.

 

[ronito]

I remember I had a friend who had the mission from hell. And the mish president said they always had to wear dark pants and dark suit coat because that's what "the brethren" wear. Then Hinckley wore a light suit jacket in a televised talk. He said the mission just about erupted. The mission president still said no.

Missions are weird

 

[Fathead]

I remember I had a friend who had the mission from hell. And the mish president said they always had to wear dark pants and dark suit coat because that's what "the brethren" wear. Then Hinckley wore a light suit jacket in a televised talk. He said the mission just about erupted. The mission president still said no.

Missions are weird

Well that example is more like Mission Presidents are weird but yeah, you are correct. Such a crazy time. Getting told that wearing a brightly colored tie is a sin (I had to go buy a ton of ties the next day) and everyone agrees without question, but when told to always get a Coke when dining out (can't risk someone giving you alcohol!) caused a riot.

 

[ronito]

So there's been more and more rumors about a big new revelation at general conference.
I heard a gay mormon hypothesize that it'd be a revelation about accepting gays. I couldn't help myself and blurted 'ARE YOU DAFT?!"
There's not a snowball's chance. But man it'd be entertaining. I can think of few things that could create more upheaval in the church.

Personally I'm with Bornstellar same thing happens every conference. If it is anything it'll be something like the perpetual education fund or some are saying about the new manuals that'd make sense.

Or it could be what I've been waiting for forever, the revelation that the three hour block will be shortened to two hours.

 

[speedline]

I'm not going to lie, it looks like most every Mormon is pretty grounded in life and has their stuff together. It seems that they trust one another and generally help each other succeed in life. Most of them I've met have been pretty successful and enjoy their lives and marriage like no other. I envy that.

I don't know that I could ever live up to the doctrine, but I can see the appeal of living a "clean" life and some of the rewards that come from it. With most of my family passed away now I can understand that desire of unity with other people under one common belief system like this, even if it seems weird to me.

By in large, Mormons seem like very intelligent, sophisticated people that I could get along with.

 

[ronito]

I'm not going to lie, it looks like most every Mormon is pretty grounded in life and has their stuff together. It seems that they trust one another and generally help each other succeed in life. Most of them I've met have been pretty successful and enjoy their lives and marriage like no other. I envy that.

I don't know that I could ever live up to the doctrine, but I can see the appeal of living a "clean" life and some of the rewards that come from it. With most of my family passed away now I can understand that desire of unity with other people under one common belief system like this, even if it seems weird to me.

By in large, Mormons seem like very intelligent, sophisticated people that I could get along with.

Had a non-mormon once tell me that mormons were always either the most trust worthy people you could find or the least trust worthy. There was no middle ground.

I've generally found that to be true.

 

[Onion_Relish]

So i was walking downtown in Vancouver when I was approached by two Mormons clearly on their mission (a friend of my brother is a mormon so i've learned quite a bit about their missions). It is so easy to see why people fall for these kinds of religions; The man who approached me reeked of raw animal magnetism, he was literally one of the most charming people i had ever seen and I hadnt even heard a word out of his mouth. He approached me and asked me how I was going with the most casual grace that I almost felt myself swayed into a conversation. That being said, i put up my guard and said frankly "I'm very well, thank you for asking, but i am not interested in your religion"

He was actually very gracious but clearly a teeny bit put off by my honesty. He asked if I believe in god to which i replied "not even in the slightest". Once again, a bit offput but still resourceful. He tried to hand me a slip and just casually asked me to visit the website to do some reading. At this point in time i just said "no thanks, i'm not interested" and of course i had to end with a troll comment, finishing with "I bet you get that a lot"

I'll hand it to the mormons, they arent afraid to get their hands dirty and do the grassroots recruiting, it's just a bit of a shame that so many people will fall for it, not because mormonism is any worse than any other religion, but because they fall into the pack mentality and capitulate to the alpha males they send out on missions.

 

[speedline]

How do they know if you are tithing 10% of your income or not? Is it based on good faith or do they know how much you make a year?

Edit: Also, I had a conversation today with a coworker who told me that the Mormons own Pepsi. I asked him where he heard that and he told me that they had a guest speaker come in at his church to teach them the differences between his faith (Assembly of God) and Mormonism. He told me the guy was really smart and knowledgeable about Mormons and such......... then he tells the Pepsi thing and I was like........... yeah, ok he sounds like a complete idiot. My coworker said he learned so much about Mormons from this guys teaching, lol.

 

[Fathead]

How do they know if you are tithing 10% of your income or not? Is it based on good faith or do they know how much you make a year?

Itemized tax return.



Kidding. Its on good faith.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

So i was walking downtown in Vancouver when I was approached by two Mormons clearly on their mission (a friend of my brother is a mormon so i've learned quite a bit about their missions). It is so easy to see why people fall for these kinds of religions; The man who approached me reeked of raw animal magnetism, he was literally one of the most charming people i had ever seen and I hadnt even heard a word out of his mouth. He approached me and asked me how I was going with the most casual grace that I almost felt myself swayed into a conversation. That being said, i put up my guard and said frankly "I'm very well, thank you for asking, but i am not interested in your religion"

He was actually very gracious but clearly a teeny bit put off by my honesty. He asked if I believe in god to which i replied "not even in the slightest". Once again, a bit offput but still resourceful. He tried to hand me a slip and just casually asked me to visit the website to do some reading. At this point in time i just said "no thanks, i'm not interested" and of course i had to end with a troll comment, finishing with "I bet you get that a lot"

I'll hand it to the mormons, they arent afraid to get their hands dirty and do the grassroots recruiting, it's just a bit of a shame that so many people will fall for it, not because mormonism is any worse than any other religion, but because they fall into the pack mentality and capitulate to the alpha males they send out on missions.

Most out of the 500 people that was sent along with me on my mission does not fit the description of alpha males or females in the slightest. It's not a hand selection of the most charming people, but people that truly want to share something that has benefited their own lives tremendously. That isn't always the case, but the ones that you feel are "charmers"are ones that feel most strongly about what they believe. Believe me, I wasn't even close to being an alpha male.

 

[speedline]

Itemized tax return.



Kidding. Its on good faith.

Well I can certainly respect that.

I asked that because a few years ago I was invited to go to a Jewish Synagogue to celebrate one of their holidays with a friend. They charge an entry fee along with monthly dues and such, it is not cheap either! I had never heard of anything like that before because all I ever seen was places that take tithes and offerings, not give you a bill.

 

[Fathead]

And the Pepsi or Coke ownership things (yes, I've heard both) are really dumb. They are way too big for one group to own any major part of them. No offense but people don't think about these things.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=KO+Major+Holders

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=PEP&ql=1

 

[speedline]

And the Pepsi or Coke ownership things (yes, I've heard both) are really dumb. They are way too big for one group to own any major part of them. No offense but people don't think about these things.

Well it was used as a means to discredit the Mormons and label them as being hypocrites to the congregation because of the anti caffeine stance. Of course they swallowed it all hook, line, and sinker. It's funny to hear someone tell you how crazy another persons religion is when their own religion is just as convoluted and just simply based on faith the same as Mormonism.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it takes the same amount of faith to believe in Christianity as it does to believe in Mormonism or even Scientology. None of them make much logical sense and to think they all have to try and discredit one another is just awkward to me.

 

[ronito]

To be fair I've heard the Pepsi thing too, but from other mormons.

 

[Fathead]

I think the chances of something big getting announced this weekend are on par with my chances of getting called as a ga. But maybe they will decide to stop hating gay people.

 

[ronito]

So the church announced a new curriculum for teaching youth. It's all online now so they can make changes as they need to.

https://www.lds.org/pages/new-youth-curriculum?lang=eng

To: General Authorities; General Auxiliary Presidencies; Area Seventies; Stake, Mission, and District Presidents; Bishops and Branch Presidents

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We are pleased to announce a new curriculum for Young Men and Young Women and for youth Sunday School classes. The new curriculum integrates basic gospel doctrines, as well as principles for teaching in the Savior's way that are also being introduced into the seminary curriculum. The focus is on strengthening and building faith, conversion, and testimony, using the most current teachings of the General Authorities and general auxiliary presidencies.

The curriculum initially will be available online in 23 languages, beginning in January 2013, and will replace the existing manuals. Additional information will be provided in upcoming area council, coordinating council, and local stake and ward training meetings.

We are confident the new curriculum will bless youth in their efforts to become fully converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely yours,

Thomas S. Monson
Henry B. Eyring
Dieter F. Uchtdorf

The First Presidency

I do/don't like the whole focus on "converting the youth". I get that the church needs to do it as they're losing the youth in droves and most of those leave just because they never really believed. So I get that need. At the same time having been a youth teacher I don't feel we do the kids any favors by trying to sell them on the religion. I viewed my calling as me giving the kids the tools and knowledge to forge their spiritual path. Prepare them for a spiritual life. We'll have to see how this plays out but I worry the whole focus on getting them to "fully convert" will not be preparing them to forge a spiritual path or life it will be saying, "Walk this spiritual path. Live this spiritual life." And one thing that being a mormon has taught me is that there are as many ways to be mormon as their are mormons and that the church gets in big trouble when they try to force a certain way.

 

[Patryn]

So the church announced a new curriculum for teaching youth. It's all online now so they can make changes as they need to.

https://www.lds.org/pages/new-youth-curriculum?lang=eng


I do/don't like the whole focus on "converting the youth". I get that the church needs to do it as they're losing the youth in droves and most of those leave just because they never really believed. So I get that need. At the same time having been a youth teacher I don't feel we do the kids any favors by trying to sell them on the religion. I viewed my calling as me giving the kids the tools and knowledge to forge their spiritual path. Prepare them for a spiritual life. We'll have to see how this plays out but I worry the whole focus on getting them to "fully convert" will not be preparing them to forge a spiritual path or life it will be saying, "Walk this spiritual path. Live this spiritual life." And one thing that being a mormon has taught me is that there are as many ways to be mormon as their are mormons and that the church gets in big trouble when they try to force a certain way.

I think they're destined to continue losing young people in droves as long as the status quo remains when it comes to missions. I know that when it came time for me to go and I decided not to go is when I made my full break. The church is forcing a crisis point when it comes time to go and telling youth "You're either in, or you're out!" and is now acting shocked that a lot of people are saying "You know what? I'm out."

I'm also guessing that the pressure isn't the same as it has been in a lot of areas. I think as soon as a few people don't go, it becomes easier for others to not go, and those who don't go often get treated so badly that they just fully break free.

Of course, I grew up in Michigan, so I didn't have the "Utah" experience. It also helped that I had a very liberal family.

 

[ronito]

I think they're destined to continue losing young people in droves as long as the status quo remains when it comes to missions. I know that when it came time for me to go and I decided not to go is when I made my full break. The church is forcing a crisis point when it comes time to go and telling youth "You're either in, or you're out!" and is now acting shocked that a lot of people are saying "You know what? I'm out."

I'm also guessing that the pressure isn't the same as it has been in a lot of areas. I think as soon as a few people don't go, it becomes easier for others to not go, and those who don't go often get treated so badly that they just fully break free.

Of course, I grew up in Michigan, so I didn't have the "Utah" experience. It also helped that I had a very liberal family.

I get you and totally understand where you're coming from.
I also understand though that for the church it's a crucial time to get young men "out of the game" per se. If you can remove a young man from temptation and set him up on the importance of marriage there's hardly a better time to do so other than early 20s. It's a formative time and a time where most people are given to experimentation and sinning. If you can pull them out of that and teach them discipline and the importance of obedience and the church you'll likely have set them on a path to a life filled with the church. So if I was in charge I totally wouldn't change it even knowing the costs

 

[Bornstellar]

General conference t-minus 8 hours. See you all on the other side.

 

[olore]

Hahaha, I needed that, man. Thanks for cheering up my day.

It's possible they do, but I can't see why they would. Latter-Day Saints run the gamut of rich to poor. They get plastic surgery, they have nice cars (or terrible ones, as my case will be) and some of us have embarrassingly expensive Lego collections.

I'll level with you: I have four close friends who aren't members. I had five but that's a long, terrible story of heart-ache and bad decisions we can all discuss some other day. These four friends of mine drink. They've been drinking since probably before we were all twenty-one. Now, I cannot stand the smell of beer. I just can't. It repulses me. But I don't look down on them when they drink usually. Last year one of my friends' mother died and she was taking it VERY hard and she drank a LOT. Now, at the time, and I regret this deeply, I didn't understand that and initially I did look down on her for her drinking habit.

Then I realized one of my best friends' life was falling into pieces and the drinking was a way for her to numb that loss. Then my head came together and I started helping her out of her rut. Now, when she drinks, it isn't that same dangerous drinking it was, and I really honestly don't mind it. Sometimes they tease me and offer it to me, and I politely or comically refuse and we carry on doing whatever.

The reason I bring this up is just to illustrate that not all Mormons look down on others for doing things they wouldn't. I would not drink, but as long as my friends drink responsibly, I don't mind it at all. They're my friends, they have been since I was 13 (one of them since I was 10). They all respect and accommodate my weird religion, and I respect their life styles.

If you think there's a problem, though, you should talk to them about it. Good communication never hurt anyone.

I hear ya dude. Just lots of little things that don`t add up in the end in regards to what I`ve heard these guys say and do. Slight, slight case of `we are holier than thou`-attitude going on

 

[olore]

To be fair I've heard the Pepsi thing too, but from other mormons.

I read that as "morons". Sorry

 

[ronito]

So the "big revelation" is out.

They've lowered the mission age to 18 for boys and 19 for girls.

Don't know why there's a year difference for girls.

Funny after our little conversation here. 18? I mean that's right out of school for most.
Perhaps I'm being cynical but I don't really see what the church gains from this outside of getting kids before they're ruined by college.

At 18 you barely know your religion let alone yourself. 19 is still pretty young.

I get the young women thing though. That makes a lot of sense and I'm frankly shocked it's taken them this long to do it. That was something I was advocating in the late 90s.

 

[SillyEskimo]

Perhaps I'm being cynical but I don't really see what the church gains from this outside of getting kids before they're ruined by college.

Entrench them earlier. No more "year of limbo" between school and Mission. I think it makes perfect sense. I think they will see a retention of youth membership if they stick to this and monitor the statistics over the next decade or so. That is the main goal and I think this will have an effect over the long term by changing the way and when the youth start to approach their Mission.

 

[Darkgran]

So the "big revelation" is out.

They've lowered the mission age to 18 for boys and 19 for girls.

Don't know why there's a year difference for girls.

Funny after our little conversation here. 18? I mean that's right out of school for most.
Perhaps I'm being cynical but I don't really see what the church gains from this outside of getting kids before they're ruined by college.

At 18 you barely know your religion let alone yourself. 19 is still pretty young.

I get the young women thing though. That makes a lot of sense and I'm frankly shocked it's taken them this long to do it. That was something I was advocating in the late 90s.

I agree with you on this.

 

[Bornstellar]

It was explained that one reason for the change is to allow mission + mandatory military service where applicable.

EDIT: Nevermind, didn't catch that then.

 

[Zerokku]

It was explained that one reason for the change is to allow mission + mandatory military service where applicable.

No, he said it was already in practice in those areas. They're just making it standard across the board.

Kind of have to agree with Ronito here...

 

[ronito]

No, he said it was already in practice in those areas. They're just making it standard across the board.

Kind of have to agree with Ronito here...

Yeah I was about to say it's not like they don't already have programs involved in these mandatory military service countries.

Also combine this with the new "convert the youth" lesson plan change it would seem that the church decided convert the youth and then send them out at the height of their conversion.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I definitely would have left at 18 if I would have been able to. I was one of the last of my friends to leave, which made the last few months before leaving a little tough. I enrolled into college and took a couple of semesters, but my mind wasn't on school knowing that I was mostly there biding my time.

Post mission college was way more effective. So many kids go and just goof off that first year because it feels like the 13th grade.

I can't thing of a better idea than graduating high school, working for a summer, and then leaving to serve.

 

[Bornstellar]

I definitely would have left at 18 if I would have been able to. I was one of the last of my friends to leave, which made the last few months before leaving a little tough. I enrolled into college and took a couple of semesters, but my mind wasn't on school knowing that I was mostly there biding my time.

Post mission college was way more effective. So many kids go and just goof off that first year because it feels like the 13th grade.

I can't thing of a better idea than graduating high school, working for a summer, and then leaving to serve.

Agreed, my freshmen year was a complete waste.

 

[ronito]

I can get that but why still the gap for sister missionaries?