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[ronito]

Oh Corvo.
You and I have had this conversation before. With active Mormons keeping themselves out from conversations about their religion they feel is insensitive it leaves the exmos to defend a church they're really not a part of anymore. Like I said before it's a chicken and egg problem. Why is the internet so hard on the church, it's because Mormons only post about their religion on mormon sites. Why do morrmons only post on mormon sites? Because the internet is hard on the church.

I do think there's a fair discussion to have on General Conference being the word of god or not and specifically Holland's "joke". And I don't find it at all a stretch to say that Holland's "joke" was just a variation of "the natural man is an enemy to god." and that IS scripture. Many of us as former members see the damage snide little comments like that have done and are doing to our family and friends right now. I have seen plenty of facebook posts that essentially equate to "LOLZ I'm so broken. I'm glad god can put with such a degenerate creature as me." with Holland's joke in a pic. As a father that's not something I'd want my kids to ever think. To an active member they just look at it and think "Yeah so?" To those that have left we look at that and know the way many people will react and facepalm. I think it's a good conversation to have to discuss whether or not the mormon (and largely christian) tone that everyone's broken and are terrible creatures that are "tolerated" by god is a good tenant to have. Like I've heard in the past, "I'm mormon, if anything I've mastered two things. Setting up and taking down chairs and guilt." Sure it's a difficult conversation to have. But I think it's a worthy one.

As to taking issue with talks well obviously with the "THIS IS SCRIPTURE!" emphasis along with 10 hours of talks per conference there's bound to be some ridiculous stuff (which is why I think it should be severely shortened to just what's necessary).

Well, I wont force you stay.

I will miss you.

 

[ronito]

I guess I don't count as active.

Don't you live in Godless Salt Lake County now? Maybe there's a reason you don't count as active. Just sayin'.

 

[Fathead]

Lol.



It is true though, I have yet to see God here.

 

[Thaedolus]

Don't worry, there's a campaign fighting pornography in Salt Lake county now. It's the new heroin.

 

[ronito]

Don't worry, there's a campaign fighting pornography in Salt Lake county now. It's the new heroin.

I thought meth was the new heroin. Or is that just Utah County?

 

[Thaedolus]

Shit between meth, heroin and tolerance (BOOM!) I can't keep up with all the vices these days...

I only set foot in Utah county when I need a haircut, because that's where my sister who cuts hair lives.

 

[fallingdove]

Is this scrutiny? I dare say it is not. Elder Holland tells one joke and then this thread is alight with "The Church has no set doctrine." and the like. Frankly, I do not consider this scrutiny in the least. Scrutiny would be a criticism of the actual content of the talk and not a joke. That you're defending the tearing apart of one joke as if it were an intelligent, critical thing to do is outrageous.

This is a farce. I can't compete with this. I cannot have an answer for every possible riposte voiced here. I will not have an answer for the defense of this so-called scrutiny of Elder Holland's joke. And honestly, I don't see need nor reason to do so.

There is nothing critical being done here, and it baffles me that anyone would dare say otherwise. It's beneath you all to spend so much time wailing about a joke. To build so much out of so little.

Every. Single. Time. No matter the announcement one little thing gets built up into some majestic evidence of the falseness of it all. The other day we had "There's nothing the Church says about the Great Apostasy which it hasn't done." Oh yeah, I totally remember the Church hunting Apostles down. Yeah, that legit happened, uh-huh.

It's a merry-go-round. Today it's how the Apostles and Prophets don't believe. Tomorrow it's Racism. Then we're on to Gays, then the eternal litany of the Church moving away from what it stood for then how the Church hasn't progressed enough until it's a blinding cacophony of condemnation.

Just drop the Mormon from the title and leave it at Ex-, Ronito. It's not like the Actives participate in this thread anyway, and goodness knows I'm out. I don't mind when there's criticism, but I'm not going to stand here and take construing one joke as evidence of the falsehood of conference as legitimate scrutiny. I have nothing against anyone here as a person. You're all nice people I've enjoyed interacting with in other threads, but I can't deal with this.

I have been a lurker in this thread for a while now and I really appreciate your thoughts on the church. I am mostly inactive now but I really admire your dedication and agree with a lot of the insights you have. Definitely don't let this thread turn into an ex-Mormon thread though. debating doctorine was one of the things I enjoyed hearing/participating in the most when I was an active member of the church. The debate would mostly end and there are many virtuous aspects of the church that would go without defense if you weren't an active member in this thread. - back to lurking.

 

[Bornstellar]

I generally try to just observe from the sidelines.

But yeah, active member here. I appreciate all the perspectives offered even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Don't worry, there's a campaign fighting pornography in Salt Lake county now. It's the new heroin.

What porn exists in SL County? Are they gonna shut down what's left of Bob Magazine and Video, and make Barnes & Noble put the entire photography section behind the counter?

 

[mik]

They're going to close the internet there.

 

[Thaedolus]

What porn exists in SL County? Are they gonna shut down what's left of Bob Magazine and Video, and make Barnes & Noble put the entire photography section behind the counter?

Eh here's the website: http://www.fightthenewdrug.org/

Certainly what we do in the privacy of our own home is going to destroy this beautiful city of ours.

BTW, my opinion is that the backwards stance the church has on things like porn are the root of marital problems, not the porn itself. Plenty of people integrate porn into their sexual relationship and it's not some sort of drug addiction...especially when it doesn't damage your body at all, is freely available, etc. I know plenty of people that have had serious relationship issues, even up to divorce, because the woman has been brainwashed to think it's not normal for a man to want sex 24/7 (and she's not putting out). I know in my relationship it's seen as a 'pressure valve' of sorts when she's not in the mood, that time of the month, schedules conflict, etc. It's not an issue at all, but that's perspective for you.

 

[ronitoswife]

Well first, as I said, Elder Holland was joking. It wasn't, strictly speaking, meant to be taken as fact when the Apostle was telling a joke.

But most important of all is just to remember that it was a joke.

There is a psychology to public speaking with several different methods that are used to engage the audience into what is being said. All of which the speaker uses to further drive the point they are trying to make. Humor is one of those methods and it is often used to not only "break the ice" and lighten the mood which can help the speaker feel and act more confident when his joke made someone laugh, but also it can be used in a way to help the audience remember and think about what was being said. The GA's are master public speakers, they've been doing this for the majority of their lives. They know and understand how powerful these tools and methods are and how they work. Humor can be a very powerful teacher which is why so many people try(try being the definitive word here, some attempts are just god awful) to use it when they speak. We can find this every week at church too. I remember back in the day when I would give talks as a missionary in Michigan, or when I was in the Primary presidency and Young Womens presidency or even just teaching a class I would sometimes speak in a lighthearted tone or make a joke about the topic I was speaking on, not because I wasn't being serious about what I was saying but because I knew that it would be remembered and I wanted the things I taught to be remembered. It was a great feeling when some of the parents would come up to me and tell me that I had become somewhat of a celebrity in their home because their kids would go around saying things like " well, sister Holly said this and sister Holly said that." I loved hearing things like that because it reassured me that I was doing my job as a leader and a teacher. I wasn't going to respond with "oh that's so sweet, I was only joking when I said that too!" That would have diminished some of the meaning behind what I had said. I don't think it's any different for the Apostles and Prophets, we shouldn't overlook them or excuse them from what they say just because they are "Prophets and Apostles". They don't say anything that they don't mean to say, even when it's said as lighthearted and a joke.

Also, whether it was said as a joke or not, we have to remember that not everyone is going to find the same joke funny or humorous. Some people are going to laugh at it while others will reflect on what was said and maybe feel a little bit hurt. Think about it. How many times have we all sat around and start to laugh at something someone just did and while laughing we say something to the effect " ha ha ha I can't believe you just did that, that's so dumb!" We've all done something similar and when the other person starts to get upset we reply with " oh come on, you know I was only joking!" Joking or not, some people will get hurt or upset by what was said. It doesn't necessarily mean they are being overly dramatic and taking it out of context. It just means they see a different side to what was said and it was upsetting or hurtful to them.

Becoming a parent has given me a different perspective on many things. I'll be honest. I found this little joke to be a bit unsettling. Especially from a parental point of view. If one of my boys came up to me and they were having a hard day or frustrated with the other or something, I would never look at them and reply with " well, I have to deal with you so you should just deal with it!" I can't imagine myself saying that to them, even in a joking way. I think that would be devastating to them. I know that if my own parents said something like that to me it would make me less likely to "come unto them" when I really needed it. The feeling is the same coming from a man who is supposed to speak for God, it doesn't make me want to "come unto him".

Bottom line is, we shouldn't overlook something that was said or casually brush it aside because it was said in a joking way. Especially when it was said by a general authority. Everything they say has meaning. Like it or not, it will always have a meaning.

**sorry about the long post. I hope you don't mind. My little tornado(aka 2 year old) actually let me sit at the computer for more than two seconds and I wanted to take full advantage of that!

 

[mik]

Great post and one of my favorite paintings. The way her head is cocked and her eyes are closed and... man. Klimt knows the power of a kiss.

 

[Thaedolus]

I testify that it's nice to have a woman's perspective in the thread. I invite you to continue contributing

 

[bluemax]

I remember when I used to have the same kinds of freak outs as my brother Corvo is having. I was around the same age and stage in my life, although I think I was headed in a much different direction.

 

[Thaedolus]

I had a momentary freakout when Hito posted some choice details about the temple initiatory rites before I had received my endowment. I thought he was surely spreading lies and falsehoods.

Then I went to the temple and was like 0_0

 

[Hitokage]

I had a momentary freakout when Hito posted some choice details about the temple initiatory rites before I had received my endowment. I thought he was surely spreading lies and falsehoods.

Then I went to the temple and was like 0_0

Did you do it before or after the recent change in the anointing part?

 

[Thaedolus]

Did you do it before or after the recent change in the anointing part?

After, thank SpaceJesus. My loins were not touched, but I remembered what you said and felt smug satisfaction as I went through it. Then my dad told me afterward they had recently changed it and how it used to be. That's when I had two WTFs: 1) your description was entirely accurate when I was sure it was a lie, and 2) how can an ancient rite like that just be changed on a whim?

 

[Hitokage]

After, thank SpaceJesus. My loins were not touched, but I remembered what you said and felt smug satisfaction as I went through it. Then my dad told me afterward they had recently changed it and how it used to be. That's when I had two WTFs: 1) your description was entirely accurate when I was sure it was a lie, and 2) how can an ancient rite like that just be changed on a whim?

To be clear, they never touched the actual parts, but a spot near them.

My dad wasn't as forthcoming on the subject, and either spoke out of ignorance or lied to me when he said the 1990 changes didn't happen. I've seen enough accounts and actual newspaper stories on the issue to not believe that.

 

[Yoritomo]

When they'd do loin they'd touch your back/side near your kidney.

Also interesting. When women are washed and anointed the ordinance is performed by women.

Also technically any woman who has received the second anointing has the priesthood since she is sealed as a priestess although the second anointing is not required for female temple working who do the first washing and anointing.

 

[Thaedolus]

To be clear, they never touched the actual parts, but a spot near them.

My dad wasn't as forthcoming on the subject, and either spoke out of ignorance or lied to me when he said the 1990 changes didn't happen. I've seen enough accounts and actual newspaper stories on the issue to not believe that.

My dad was surprisingly open about such things. He told me about the 1990 changes in the celestial room of the Oakland temple once. I had no idea. He even showed me the pantomimes. I think he just thought of it as interesting, while I found it made me feel doubt and wonder why these things would change over time

 

[Hitokage]

My dad was surprisingly open about such things. He told me about the 1990 changes in the celestial room of the Oakland temple once. I had no idea. He even showed me the pantomimes. I think he just thought of it as interesting, while I found it made me feel doubt and wonder why these things would change over time

When they make the claim that these were given to us through divine revelation and you take that seriously, then yes it does give reason to doubt.

 

[ronitoswife]

Great post and one of my favorite paintings. The way her head is cocked and her eyes are closed and... man. Klimt knows the power of a kiss.

Thanks. Klimt is one of my favorite artists. The way he captures emotion is brilliant and this painting is a perfect example of that. Plus, it reminds me of Ronito and I.

I testify that it's nice to have a woman's perspective in the thread. I invite you to continue contributing

This made me smile too. I do wish to contribute more often. I don't always have the chance as I stated before our little guy doesn't always let me sit for long at the computer(or anything for that matter, lol). I do check and read through the thread often, I just don't always have a chance to add anything. Occasionally I'll have a moment like yesterday where we had some blessed quiet time and I had a chance to write my thoughts down. Ronito's working from home today so I have some free time!

I remember when I used to have the same kinds of freak outs as my brother Corvo is having. I was around the same age and stage in my life, although I think I was headed in a much different direction.

Honestly, I think we've all felt similar at times. Not just with church and religious matters, but anything that we feel is important to us we can become defensive about when we feel like it or we are being attacked. So in a way I can understand why Corvo is upset. I've been there before too.

 

[mik]

I'm so happy I went through in the 80s. It would have been a shame to miss out on slitting my own throat.

 

[Thaedolus]

This guy's videos crack me up.

 

[Fathead]

So Sunday will be first day in the new ward. I bet I get called a hippie before i get to elders quorum.

 

[ronito]

This guy's videos crack me up.

And they say that we don't post positive stuff about the church here.

So Sunday will be first day in the new ward. I bet I get called a hippie before i get to elders quorum.

I bet you're wrong hippie!

 

[Fathead]

And they say that we don't post positive stuff about the church here.


I bet you're wrong hippie!

You're right. It'll happen right after Sacrament meeting.

 

[ronito]

You'll have to tell me if they still do that "Stand up and introduce yourself" thing.
I remember in one ward that was particularly anti-social they asked me to introduce myself 6 weeks after I did my first introduction.
They were like "Would you like to introduce yourself?"
I replied "I did that 6 weeks ago."
"Have you been sick or something?"
"Nope been here every week since. Thanks for noticing though."

 

[Fathead]

They did in my last ward. I said no.

 

[Thaedolus]

My favorite is when I'd go home and visit my parents' ward, where I grew up and everyone knew me, and I was still asked to introduce myself...I wasn't embarrassed or anything but I just thought it was extremely retarded.

 

[AlteredBeast]

My ward recently had a boundary change and we lost 60+ families. We gained about 35 in exchange, but our overall attendance dropped by bout 30 to 40 people.

I maintained my calling, Gospel Essentials Teacher.

 

[Fathead]

I got asked "whats with the hippie beard?".


Right before priesthood. Lol

 

[AlteredBeast]

I got asked "whats with the hippie beard?".


Right before priesthood. Lol

I gotta see this beard! Good ol Utah, you would be accepted as are in Nebraska.

 

[ronito]

I concur we need to see this devilish beard.

 

[Laurentius]

I know people here have mixed feelings about Rock Waterman, but he just put out an interesting article on how many of the "founding father's" (I personally don't like that phrase, but hey) had actually had their baptisms done before his supposed vision of them.

I'd be interested to see if anybody fact checks this article to see whether this is true or not.

 

[ronito]

Not a fan of Rock, I think he's big on the cognitive dissonance camp (him and Delhin) and there's plenty of criticism on both sides for that. But I don't think that not checking his facts has generally been one of those criticisms. It's an interesting account, the whole Founding Fathers thing seemed to me as mormon folklore on steroids from the beginning even when I was a member, so it's not surprising. I remember when I had heard about it in Deacon's quorum I thought to myself, "Really? Cause if I could do work for the dead back then I would've made sure to do the founding father's first and no one thought of it?" Back then I thought that perhaps there were extra rules or perhaps Satan had kept the membership from letting people do his work. As I grew up and went through my disaffection I assumed that it had probably already been done for quite a few of them but not all. So this news isn't surprising at all. I suspect it's probably factual.

Also speaking of Satan saw this post on Reddit.

Every since I first saw my son on the ultra sound screen I knew he was special. Now I wonder if others think he will do great things as well. My husband is worthy priesthood holder and has blessed the house and the baby's room. Sometimes when the babies upstairs sleeping I will hear strange things in the baby monitor. I've heard what seemed like mumbling in another language, something moving around and what sounding like something pulsating. Is he being targeted by satan? And will it always be this way?

Man, sometimes I miss those days of wanton arrogance when the universe and the forces of good and evil revolved around me. It's funny to see how many exmos deal with this sudden change. Some take militantly to atheism to fight against the imagined evils of religion. Others go join stuff like Impact which takes that arrogance and turns it up to 11.

 

[Hitokage]

Man, sometimes I miss those days of wanton arrogance when the universe and the forces of good and evil revolved around me. It's funny to see how many exmos deal with this sudden change. Some take militantly to atheism to fight against the imagined evils of religion. Others go join stuff like Impact which takes that arrogance and turns it up to 11.

Conversion is an interesting process in general, regardless of direction, because it tends to reveal core attitudes and how deeply people are thinking about the subjects concerned. For example, a religious person who suffers tragedy, becomes angry at God for allowing it, then becomes atheist is likely to become religious again when dissuaded from the notion of a cruel and indifferent God. People may construct arguments around this, but they are all are ultimately subordinate and will all fall when this is affected.

And really, you see a lot of exmos go through a second adolescence, doing things simply because the church said not to without considering other arguments against doing them.

 

[Thaedolus]

Not a fan of Rock, I think he's big on the cognitive dissonance camp (him and Delhin) and there's plenty of criticism on both sides for that. But I don't think that not checking his facts has generally been one of those criticisms. It's an interesting account, the whole Founding Fathers thing seemed to me as mormon folklore on steroids from the beginning even when I was a member, so it's not surprising. I remember when I had heard about it in Deacon's quorum I thought to myself, "Really? Cause if I could do work for the dead back then I would've made sure to do the founding father's first and no one thought of it?" Back then I thought that perhaps there were extra rules or perhaps Satan had kept the membership from letting people do his work. As I grew up and went through my disaffection I assumed that it had probably already been done for quite a few of them but not all. So this news isn't surprising at all. I suspect it's probably factual.

Also speaking of Satan saw this post on Reddit.


Man, sometimes I miss those days of wanton arrogance when the universe and the forces of good and evil revolved around me. It's funny to see how many exmos deal with this sudden change. Some take militantly to atheism to fight against the imagined evils of religion. Others go join stuff like Impact which takes that arrogance and turns it up to 11.

"Imagined" evils huh?

 

[ronito]

"Imagined" evils huh?

You saying otherwise brother?

 

[Thaedolus]

I don't think it takes much imagination to see the evils perpetuated by religion, whether it's pedophile priests in Catholicism, Muslim extremists, or even lesser evils like Boyd Packer's hateful rhetoric. That's not a blanket statement about everything every religion does, mind, I just see quite a bit of evil in certain sects.

That said, newly ExMos that start seeing everything as some vile conspiracy certainly need to keep themselves grounded. If that's what you were referring to, well yeah, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

 

[Thaedolus]

I got contacted on the street today! I had to walk across half of Sandy to pick up my truck, and I decided to take my dog with me. Up the road I saw what I literally thought were three young girls (like preteens) on their bikes pulling out of a driveway and riding toward me. I was texting or changing my song or something and not paying attention until they got right up on me and asked me if I knew any Hispanic people in the neighborhood.

Two were latinas, one was white, and they all tiny and looked barely 19. They sorta cornered my dog and me and I let them play with her for a minute. Conversation went something like this:

Me: No, sorry this isn't my neighborhood so I don't know anyone.

Latina 1: Oh what kind of dog? How old is she?

Me: German Shepherd, about a year and a half.

White Sister: So where do you live?

Me: Uhh...up that way?

Latina 2: How far is it from here?

Me: (WTF?) ...I'd say a couple miles, I'm walking to pick up my car. Well, I good luck, I hope you have a good day.

White Sister: WAIT! Let me give you my card.

Me: (Goddammit!) Ok.

White Sister: So are you a member of the church?

Me: I was, but I resigned.

White sister looks like she's seen a ghost. Like, eyes went wide. I think maybe she knew people like me existed but never met one.

White Sister: Oh I'm so sorry! Do you still have a Book of Mormon?

Me: Yes.

White Sister: When's the last time you read it?

Me: Uhhh it's been a few years...

White Sister: Well I promise that if you go home and open it up and read it you'll feel the spirit. You call us when you do ok?

Me (trying not to laugh): OK I will, have a good day.

She awkwardly shook my head (I was juggling my dog leash and phone/earbuds) and they rode off...and I couldn't help but just feel bad about the whole thing. I tried to be very nice and polite, but also not get sucked into anything or get their hopes up. What do I say to that promise? I can't go shatter some wide-eyed innocence in the street man. And at the same time, she looked so down after I told her I was an apostate...I wanted to say "Don't be sad, I'm happier than I've ever been! Stop wasting your best years on this nonsense and go have fun!"

Meh. Sister missionaries are the worst. I'd rather have some cocky young dude try to come bash with me than turn sisters down.

 

[ronito]

I love missionaries, though honestly I can't remember the last time I saw a sister pair, of course with the huge influx I should probably be seeing some soon.

As for me I love the basic missionary fallbacks when they see someone who left:
- Must have a serious sin
- Probably offended
- Didn't read scriptures
- Didn't understand scriptures

I remember one set of missionaries stopping by and when they heard I wasn't active anymore one asked if they could help me understand some scripture because I must have not understood or read them. I should've handed them my scriptures that are choked with notes and told them I got a minor in religion from BYU. I know they mean to help but they don't know how arrogant it comes off. It's like you get in a car wreck because someone rammed your car and having some 19 year old guy come up and say "Well you must have been driving it wrong. Here let me show you how to drive."

 

[Thaedolus]

That's really a great analogy of how I felt about the encounter...except from my perspective it's more like I finally got my vehicle fixed and running smoothly, and they're critiquing my work, or worse, telling me to put it back how it was. That was actually what I hated about being a missionary: walking up to someone and having no idea who they are or what their circumstances may be, but assuming I had something that would fix or make their lives better. I didn't like being on that side of the conversation, and I don't like being on the receiving end either.

 

[Fathead]

I'm not gonna fault missionaries for being missionaries. They are trying to do what they think is right.

 

[Thaedolus]

I'm not gonna fault missionaries for being missionaries. They are trying to do what they think is right.

Oh, I didn't look down on them personally or anything, it just reminded me what I hated about being a missionary. They are doing what they think is right, and their innocence of my blame is why I didn't act rude and let them pet my dog/talk to me for a minute.

By the way, if any of you are desperately single, puppies/dogs are total chick magnets.

 

[Fathead]

A cute baby niece or nephew works better.

 

[jb1234]

When I was on my journey to being baptized, I had two sets of missionaries looking out for me, two men and two women. Once, I felt so happy that I hugged one of the women and it wasn't until immediately afterwards that I was told I wasn't supposed to do that, under any circumstances. Awkward.

 

[ronito]

Oh the memories of awkward church dances.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Oh the memories of awkward church dances.

Yeah, but that is definitely not in any way church related. Otherwise, Christian Rock and Bible would be interchanged with "pop music" and "Book of Mormon."