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[Bornstellar]

Oh the memories of awkward church dances.

Alternatively, dances at BYU are pretty great since a lot of people know at least the basics.

On another topic - we were discussing how so many people in the Church have the wrong and poisonous belief that repentance (for members of the Church) is something negative. Too many people have a tendency to push away from those that are most in need of their help when they do something wrong that many feel that the expectation is to never sin (and as a result, attempt to conceal their own flaws rather than truly repenting - developing a deep sense of shame and guilt in various contexts).

It's pride at its worse.

 

[Yoritomo]

Eiffel tower the holy spirit!!

 

[AlteredBeast]

Alternatively, dances at BYU are pretty great since a lot of people know at least the basics.

On another topic - we were discussing how so many people in the Church have the wrong and poisonous belief that repentance (for members of the Church) is something negative. Too many people have a tendency to push away from those that are most in need of their help when they do something wrong that many feel that the expectation is to never sin (and as a result, attempt to conceal their own flaws rather than truly repenting - developing a deep sense of shame and guilt in various contexts).

It's pride at its worse.

I agree. Probably doesn't help the fact of the rampant abuse and pornography use in the church.

 

[ronito]

I totally get that shame has a large part of it. One of my friend's Dads wrote that book Believing in Christ: The Parable of the Bicycle and other good news.

And that was the whole point of the book that Christ is of no use unless you actually use the atonement. And I do think the church has a hard time making this case however. It's problematic.

Like I said a few pages back, the LDS church is one of the last christian churches where a sin actually a sin and has weight and consequences. Ergo, it's like that ritual thing I keep bringing up that when a religion has a lot of rituals it becomes about those rituals instead of being about the church. Same thing with sinning. When sins have consequences which are social (let's face it, they are just by their nature. If you can't take the sacrament, you bet there are people being like "hmm...I wonder why." If nothing else the bishop and perhaps his councilors know, if your a kid your parents will know) then the whole thing becomes about the punishment/shame and not repentance.

Add onto that that the most serious sins are of a sexual nature. Which are largely temptations you cannot control/have little control over. For example, I never had an issue with the Word of Wisdom while I was a mormon. Why? Because it was easy to not get into those situations and even if I was it was easy to remove myself from it. You can't hide from your attractions or your love or yourself. And then add into this the vitriolic messaging that was behind those kinds of sins (The sin next to MURDER! or Pron makes people rapists! You're unnatural and an abomination) it creates a huge cycle of shame and issues that the church is ill equipped to deal with. The fact that most of the first presidency are seniors that have been married for decades further creates a bit of FUD because it's been a long time since the whole sex thing was even an issue. I always found it a bit like when Mitt Romney saying in that speech, "Hey I'm unemployed too!"

All this combines with that Romeo and Juliet effect (something that's forbidden is suddenly more desirable than it would've been otherwise) and the shame effect (well I'm already going to hell...) and you get into a vicious cycle that most don't make it out of

There are many mormons out there trying to break that cycle of shame. I listen to Mormon Expositor quite a bit and they try to discuss this but generally what I hear from them and others is "Yeah it's fucked up." And then thing is I don't think the church really wants their members to be shameful and hurt. But it's just the nature of the message. If I tell my son that only dummies pee the bed and then suddenly he pees the bed he's going to feel like a dummy. Likewise saying "Sexual sins are next to murder" or that it 'tears apart the fabric of the eternal family' its no surprise that members react the way that they do. No matter how many times you state "No one's perfect" and "Believe in the atonement" They've been ingraned with a sense of consequence and shame around it and you can't blame them for listening the 10 times you told them how bad the thing they did was versus the 4 times you told them about the atonement.

I've said for years that the church needs to lightenup on masterbation and shift their position on pron . I have seen way too much drama around such simple matters up to and including divorce over things that people with healthier views of those kinds of things wouldn't even bat an eye at. But really I think that the church is in a catch 22 here. You can't really get too nuanced with the whole thing. People want yes and no answers. In masterbation they've railed against it in the path and currently they mainly sidestep the issue leaving the membership to think how important/unimportant it is (most side on the important side) and pron they're just hammering away at mercilessly. And I can see why. I've seen addicts that had it destroy their lives. But for every one of those I know dozens upon dozens that are just fine or had their relationships bettered for it. It's the same thing as alcohol. You know a glass of wine every once in a while can be pretty good for you. But how exactly is the church supposed to make that point? It largely can't.

 

[Brianemone]

Oh the memories of awkward church dances.

Reminds me of the time my wife and I were dancing together (while engaged a few weeks before we got married) at a YSA dance. Some unhappy looking lady came up to us to tell us how inappropriate it was that we weren't a Book of Mormon apart, and that if we didn't stop we'd be asked to leave..... So we left.

 

[ronito]

Reminds me of the time my wife and I were dancing together (while engaged a few weeks before we got married) at a YSA dance. Some unhappy looking lady came up to us to tell us how inappropriate it was that we weren't a Book of Mormon apart, and that if we didn't stop we'd be asked to leave..... So we left.

I remember in Provo there was a dance where they stopped the music and reminded people that the chaperones had to be able to put a fist between you and your dance partner's stomach and they threatened that if anyone else broke that rule they would shut down the dance.

My fave though were the YSA new year's eve dances. Man, those were pathetic even as I was attending them.

"Dude a midnight I drank like 3 cups of Store Brand fruit punch and gave this one hot chick a high five. It was off tha HOOK!"

 

[Thaedolus]

I remember transitioning from YSA dances to clubs, then to dive bars with pool tables and shuffle boards. I find clubs to be vile cesspools of humanity, YSA dances to be sterile nonsense, and dive bars to be the most real, salt-of-the-earthy place where I prefer to hang out and chat while having a few drinks. Clean glasses are optional.

 

[Fathead]

I remember when I wasnt allowed into a church dance. In a parking lot. When it was 97 degrees out. Because I was wearing shorts.

 

[RoKKeR]

I remember in Provo there was a dance where they stopped the music and reminded people that the chaperones had to be able to put a fist between you and your dance partner's stomach and they threatened that if anyone else broke that rule they would shut down the dance.

My fave though were the YSA new year's eve dances. Man, those were pathetic even as I was attending them.

"Dude a midnight I drank like 3 cups of Store Brand fruit punch and gave this one hot chick a high five. It was off tha HOOK!"

I live in Utah, (3 more months!) but I did not know stuff like that happened. Oh man, that's gold.

 

[ronito]

I live in Utah, (3 more months!) but I did not know stuff like that happened. Oh man, that's gold.

hrmmm 3 months. BYU?

 

[RoKKeR]

hrmmm 3 months. BYU?

Opposite, actually. I'm headed off to Vanderbilt University in three months.

Spoiler

Though it's a good school, I couldn't stand going to BYU. (ex-mormon BTW)

 

[ronito]

so the church issued a statement about the boy scouts allowing gay members.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-boy-scouts-of-america

Salt Lake City —

For 100 years, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has enjoyed a strong, rewarding relationship with Boy Scouts of America (BSA).

Recently, BSA has been reviewing a possible policy change in its standards for membership and leadership. Now that BSA has finished its review process and has proposed a resolution for consideration, the Church has issued the following statement:

“Over the past several weeks BSA has undertaken the difficult task of reviewing its membership standards policy. In their own words, this undertaking has been 'the most comprehensive listening exercise in its history.'

"While the Church has not launched any campaign either to effect or prevent a policy change we have followed the discussion and are satisfied that BSA has made a thoughtful, good-faith effort to address issues that, as they have said, remain 'among the most complex and challenging issues facing the BSA and society today.'

"The current BSA proposal constructively addresses a number of important issues that have been part of the on-going dialogue including consistent standards for all BSA partners, recognition that Scouting exists to serve and benefit youth rather than Scout leaders, a single standard of moral purity for youth in the program, and a renewed emphasis for Scouts to honor their duty to God.

"We are grateful to BSA for their careful consideration of these issues. We appreciate the positive things contained in this current proposal that will help build and strengthen the moral character and leadership skills of youth as we work together in the future.”

Or perhaps I should say "non-statement" this doesn't really say anything. I will say that the BSA is damned lucky the church is full of staunch traditionalists. If I was in charge I would've just gotten rid of the whole BSA tie all together and just replaced it with that duty to god thing they got now.

 

[Laurentius]

so the church issued a statement about the boy scouts allowing gay members.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-boy-scouts-of-america


Or perhaps I should say "non-statement" this doesn't really say anything. I will say that the BSA is damned lucky the church is full of staunch traditionalists. If I was in charge I would've just gotten rid of the whole BSA tie all together and just replaced it with that duty to god thing they got now.

Yeah, the church is pretty good with non-statements...

Yeah, I really wish the church would just do away with its super strict BSA tie in. I hated scouts when I was a kid, but there was so much church pressure to do it, that it was practically a worthiness question if you didn't participate.

I liked camping and hiking and stuff like that, I just didn't like the rigidness and the merit badges and stuff. Perhaps it was because most of my scout leaders didn't know what they were doing, and didn't want to be there either...

It should be seen as a much more voluntary thing, not tied into the church curriculum, and scout master shouldn't be a calling. I think everybody would enjoy it much more if that was the case.

That's my opinion at least.

 

[balddemon]

I think I've posted about this in here before, but I'm gonna do it again.

tl;dr - I have a job and a place to stay if I want them, in Herriman, UT with my dad's brother. I want to go, but don't want to do the religious stuff that would be required of me.

oh yeah. not so much a story as I need to just lay it all out and organize my thoughts about what my dad told me today.

so the other day, my grandma called my dad. there has been a standing offer to go live with my dad's brother and his kids in utah. apparently, they also have a job lined up for me that would probably pay much better than anything I'd find here.

at first glance, this seems like a great idea.

• I'd get out of my parents house
• I'd be closer to the rest of my family (we're the only ones that live east of utah + hot cousin)
• I'd be in utah (which while utah in general sucks I love being outside and mountains and shit)
• I have a lot of friends from college in utah
• I could go to some really good colleges for cheap
• I'd be free from certain distractions and thus able to buckle down and get shit done
• Jazz games. finally a pro basketball team.

I just don't see why I shouldn't go, just looking at that list. it would be great for me and everyone involved.

but then you gotta think of the other side, the shitty part about it. this is all assuming I go.

• I'd be leaving behind a great place in Kansas City that I love
• I'm comfortable here, although I do really want to change my life - scenery might need to be the first thing to happen
• I don't want to participate in the religious aspects of living in utah - temple trips, baptisms for the dead, having a calling (which honestly I can just say no to this one), etc. church activities would be fine and maybe even the young single adult dances to pick up some honeys.
• I don't have a car so I'd be kind of screwed, and I don't want to depend on someone else like I do my parents right now.

tbh the biggest thing I'm worried about is the religious aspect. I wouldn't want to go and accept my uncle's offer, only to offend him by disagreeing with his religious views. which I don't really, I believe in God and everything, and really think that the Mormon religion is a good one, but I think that their views on a lot of things are outdated, plus I like to drink and smoke weed.

what do you guys think?

 

[AlteredBeast]

Well, I will tell you that drinking and smoking weed is retarded, but beyond that, your points seem valid.

Honestly, smoking and drinking is a damn fine way of ruining your body. Grow up.

That said, Herriman is a small town, right? There is a sister missionary in my ward right now who is from Herriman. She is pretty strange, to be honest. Wonder if your family would know her (no idea how big Herriman is)

 

[Fathead]

Herriman is in the extreme southwest corner of the salt lake valley.

 

[ronito]

Well, I will tell you that drinking and smoking weed is retarded, but beyond that, your points seem valid.

Honestly, smoking and drinking is a damn fine way of ruining your body. Grow up.

That said, Herriman is a small town, right? There is a sister missionary in my ward right now who is from Herriman. She is pretty strange, to be honest. Wonder if your family would know her (no idea how big Herriman is)

You know I had the same attitude towards drinking, like "Why would you ever subject your body to that?!" Now I like to a have a drink here and there, like once a week if that. really I view how I used to think of alcohol very much the same way I used to think girls had cooties.

As to balddemons thing. I dunno dude, it seems to me that not being a part of the "Utah" lifestyle really defines a lot of your life right now. If you can't give that up and do this you're going to resent it.

 

[Hitokage]

There are many excellent reasons to never touch a cigarette that have nothing to do with what the church says. Drinking is a more cloudy issue, even on the church side of things.

Personally, I'm a very light drinker. On the rare occasion I do drink it's usually like 5-6 oz. I'll enjoy it, mind you, but I'm done after that.

 

[Thaedolus]

Well, I will tell you that drinking and smoking weed is retarded, but beyond that, your points seem valid.

Honestly, smoking and drinking is a damn fine way of ruining your body. Grow up.

Don't knock it till you try it...

(Moderation isn't unheard of or remotely difficult)

 

[mik]

Saying drinking is "retarded," followed by a call to grow up. Priceless.

 

[alejob]

I have a question maybe you guys can help me with. Here is a little background.

I am not LDS but my mom is. I was born and raised in a place with basically zero exposure to the mormon culture, except for when I visited my moms side of the family which was once every couple of years. Eight years ago I moved to Utah and lived with my grandmother for a while. I've stayed away from the whole church thing. I've talked to missionaries and the ward bishop before, they basically asked if I was interested and I said no. A year ago I bought a house and moved in to a new ward.

I've been invited a couple of times by a friend to church parties/cookouts(24th of July kind of thing) where I was introduced as a new neighbor and not a member of the church. The missionaries came to my house again a while back and again I said I was not interested. So they should know I'm not interested. Now here is the thing, I want to be friendly and a good neighbor. I keep getting invited to their social events. For example, I was invited to and elders quorum "fiesta". The guy who brought the invitation was pretty nice. He said just to come down and play ping pong and have some tacos and hang out.

So, my questions. Who goes to the elders quorum "parties"? As I drove buy the church when the party was supposed to take place there were maybe 5 cars there. The flier says food, games, families. I was expecting a ton of people there.

Would it be possible to be involved in some of this activities that are organized by the ward without being asked about going to church? I guess it all depends on the people but what are you thoughts? I was told before that I shouldn't go to this stuff because I'll just end up being their "project".

 

[Yoritomo]

The kidnapped Utahn Elizabeth Smart speaks out regarding the virtue object lessons and abstinence only education.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/06/1967591/elizabeth-smart-abstinence-ed/

Smart said she “felt so dirty and so filthy” after she was raped by her captor, and she understands why someone wouldn’t run “because of that alone.”
Smart spoke at a Johns Hopkins human trafficking forum, saying she was raised in a religious household and recalled a school teacher who spoke once about abstinence and compared sex to chewing gum.
“I thought, ‘Oh, my gosh, I’m that chewed up piece of gum, nobody re-chews a piece of gum, you throw it away.’ And that’s how easy it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you no longer have value,” Smart said. “Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued? Your life still has no value.”

 

[Hitokage]

I had a seminary teacher who brought in a rose to demonstrate it getting bruised after the whole class handled it.

 

[ronito]

The kidnapped Utahn Elizabeth Smart speaks out regarding the virtue object lessons and abstinence only education.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/06/1967591/elizabeth-smart-abstinence-ed/

Yeah, like I've said like 20 times in this thread I think the way the church deals with sex is beyond naive and downright toxic. Especially for women where so much of their identity is caught up in sexual purity. I remember the "cupcake" lesson where the teacher brings in a set of cupcakes and licks one to show how no one wants something that's "been used". Sure there are talks about how "it's a beautiful experience between husband and wife." But sex is far more nuanced than that. Especially in this day and age where people are much more honest about sex the church talks in vague points about "purity" and "chaste thoughts" to try and avoid landmines but the prior prophets certainly weren't quiet or vague about it. So it's not surprising that much of the membership is toxic about it as well. If the catholic church has issues with pedos and birth control and baptists have issues with violence the LDS church's defining issue is slut shaming.

I have a question maybe you guys can help me with. Here is a little background.

I am not LDS but my mom is. I was born and raised in a place with basically zero exposure to the mormon culture, except for when I visited my moms side of the family which was once every couple of years. Eight years ago I moved to Utah and lived with my grandmother for a while. I've stayed away from the whole church thing. I've talked to missionaries and the ward bishop before, they basically asked if I was interested and I said no. A year ago I bought a house and moved in to a new ward.

I've been invited a couple of times by a friend to church parties/cookouts(24th of July kind of thing) where I was introduced as a new neighbor and not a member of the church. The missionaries came to my house again a while back and again I said I was not interested. So they should know I'm not interested. Now here is the thing, I want to be friendly and a good neighbor. I keep getting invited to their social events. For example, I was invited to and elders quorum "fiesta". The guy who brought the invitation was pretty nice. He said just to come down and play ping pong and have some tacos and hang out.

So, my questions. Who goes to the elders quorum "parties"? As I drove buy the church when the party was supposed to take place there were maybe 5 cars there. The flier says food, games, families. I was expecting a ton of people there.

Would it be possible to be involved in some of this activities that are organized by the ward without being asked about going to church? I guess it all depends on the people but what are you thoughts? I was told before that I shouldn't go to this stuff because I'll just end up being their "project".

I think it depends on the ward. I think the important thing is being upfront with people. For example the current ward in my area I've met the EQ and had a good discussion with him about where I am in the church and that I'm not interested in being "reactivated" or being anyone's project. He's since invited me to some activities and the fam and I have attended and people are pretty cool about it without being overbearing. Other wards I've been in I tell them upfront where I am and they then leave me alone and don't invite me to anything. So I guess it's up to the ward. Like this current ward is pretty small so I think they're just happy to have someone else around. Whereas the other wards that didn't bother tended to be bigger. Further my wife's visiting teacher isn't mormon so that helps with expectations and she just seems happy to have someone show up while her husband never goes. It's a difficult thing but if everyone's honest I think it can work out.

 

[ronitoswife]

Further my wife's visiting teacher isn't mormon

Honey I think you hit your head harder than you thought. Of course my visiting teacher is Mormon. If she wasn't she wouldn't be my visiting teacher. Its her husband who is not a mormon.

 

[Westonian]

I'm currently a Seminary teacher. When we had the chastity lesson, I made it a point to stress that sex is not a bad thing, and that too many within the Church harbor Victorian era repressive ideas about sex. Sex is not dirty. Sex is great, and it can bring husbands and wives much closer together. The analogy I used was that sex is like a thick winter coat. It's warm, and great when the environment requires a winter coat. But right now you kids are in the springs and summers of your life and wearing such a coat can cause unintended problems, like heat stroke. (Again, like all analogies, it's not perfectly analogous).

I think there is a prevailing attitude withing a lot of organized religion that sex is a necessary evil for procreation. It's repressive and causes a lot of problems. I blame Paul and the Gnostics.

 

[ronito]

I'm currently a Seminary teacher. When we had the chastity lesson, I made it a point to stress that sex is not a bad thing, and that too many within the Church harbor Victorian era repressive ideas about sex. Sex is not dirty. Sex is great, and it can bring husbands and wives much closer together. The analogy I used was that sex is like a thick winter coat. It's warm, and great when the environment requires a winter coat. But right now you kids are in the springs and summers of your life and wearing such a coat can cause unintended problems, like heat stroke. (Again, like all analogies, it's not perfectly analogous).

I think there is a prevailing attitude withing a lot of organized religion that sex is a necessary evil for procreation. It's repressive and causes a lot of problems. I blame Paul and the Gnostics.

I like that analogy. You should add "and a kid" to the heat stroke thing.

Yeah the church needs to come to grips (lol pun) about its sex problem in the membership. Just last week a mormon told me that anal/oral sex is degrading and damages your soul even if you're in a married relationship. I have no idea how such a view can persist in 2013.

 

[mik]

Right now you're in the spring and summer of your lives... you know, when everything is fresh and new and beautiful and sexy and in the best physical condition it will ever be.

You don't want to have sex with THAT, kids. Wait for winter to wither you, pack on some nice cold-weather insulation, and get used to long, dark nights full of disappointment.

 

[ronito]

I'm currently a Seminary teacher. When we had the chastity lesson, I made it a point to stress that sex is not a bad thing, and that too many within the Church harbor Victorian era repressive ideas about sex. Sex is not dirty. Sex is great, and it can bring husbands and wives much closer together. The analogy I used was that sex is like a thick winter coat. It's warm, and great when the environment requires a winter coat. But right now you kids are in the springs and summers of your life and wearing such a coat can cause unintended problems, like heat stroke. (Again, like all analogies, it's not perfectly analogous).

I think there is a prevailing attitude withing a lot of organized religion that sex is a necessary evil for procreation. It's repressive and causes a lot of problems. I blame Paul and the Gnostics.

So I was thinking on this. As a "seminary" you mean CES seminary? Or calling? How is it working for you? What do you notice? What's going on? My last real interaction was as Elder's Quorum teacher. And my take aways from that were exactly what you'd expect. Its surprising how many Elders are just on "auto-pilot". That many feel they were told to go on a mission and they did that, then they were told to get married and start a family, they did that. Now they just gotta coast. It also surprised me how little these guys who went on missions really knew about their church and the "why" of stuff.

 

[Westonian]

So I was thinking on this. As a "seminary" you mean CES seminary? Or calling? How is it working for you? What do you notice? What's going on? My last real interaction was as Elder's Quorum teacher. And my take aways from that were exactly what you'd expect. Its surprising how many Elders are just on "auto-pilot". That many feel they were told to go on a mission and they did that, then they were told to get married and start a family, they did that. Now they just gotta coast. It also surprised me how little these guys who went on missions really knew about their church and the "why" of stuff.

Early morning Seminary, as a calling. I love it. They have a new curriculum which asks us to be more of a discussion moderator than a teacher. We're asking the kids to develop tools to find answers to their own questions, and the results have been pretty amazing. Instead of being lectured to for an hour, they're supposed to come to class ready to talk about what they read the night before. As Elder Bednar put it, we've been told this is a special generation, and it's about time we start treating them that way. Expectations are higher, with more responsibility to learn the gospel rather than be force fed.

I talked to the kids about that saying that a mission is the best two years/18 months of your life. I said that's a pretty depressing notion, that you'd peak at 19. If the purpose of life is to grow by experience, then the best years of your life should always be the present, with the expectation that it's only going to get better. And that's been my experience. Life keeps getting better. My mission was a mix of great and bad experiences, much like life is.

The why of stuff is pretty important. I had a wise mission president that taught me the importance of asking, "Why?" There are a lot of rules for missionaries to follow, and if you don't understand the why, it's easier to justify breaking them. However, he stressed that the question should always be why, and rarely if ever, whether. Whether you should follow commandments dancing on a fine line, but why, why gives you a reason to be faithful.

Questions are the foundation to a real testimony. Joseph Smith's prayer was the result of a question. I love good questions, even if the answer isn't always what we were hoping for or expecting. Challenging answers shouldn't be avoided.

Now I feel like I'm rambling, and I need to go eat lunch.

 

[ronitoswife]

The kidnapped Utahn Elizabeth Smart speaks out regarding the virtue object lessons and abstinence only education.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/06/1967591/elizabeth-smart-abstinence-ed/

This was such a big part of my life growing up. There is so much emphasis on being clean and pure that sometimes the guilt and shame was overwhelming. Even as a young child it affected me. Expressing or showing any curiosity about myself ended with a scolding. I was told that was bad and I shouldn't do it. It was a problem. I spent my childhood and adolescence and even the first half of my adulthood believing I had a problem. Young Womens was the worst with talks about no unclean thing can enter the presence of God, and your thoughts are who you are and how you will be so embarrassed to tell your future husband of you kissing another boy before you were married so don't do it! I was really good at being Mormon back then. I had my happy face, I read the scriptures and prayed every day, I had leadership positions. My secret hope was that no one would ever find out about "my problem". I wrestled with the idea of "do I or do I not go and talk to the bishop about my bad/evil dream?" Because, of course, it was a problem. Every talk about being chaste I felt evil and dirty even though I never acted upon anything. I felt like a freak sometimes because surely I wasn't normal. My friends and I back then never talked about any of this stuff together, you just didn't talk about it. Feelings of guilt, shame, embarrassment were causes of deep depression for me. It wasn't until after I got married and started taking part in social groups other than the ones I grew up with that I realized that what I grew up to believe was "my problem" wasn't at all abnormal.

I completely agree that the object lessons can do more harm than good. I know the teachers mean well, but no one should be made to feel dirty or ashamed because they are going through a normal part of our existence. There definitely needs to be a different approach regarding sex within the church. The analogies of the licked cupcake and chewed up piece of gum have got to go. I get the "winter coat" analogy. Like you said it's not perfect but it's better than shaming someone for having a sex dream.

 

[Thaedolus]

The guilt and feelings of impurity affect boys too...In fact, I think the church's stances on "sexual purity" set me back years in my development.

That's one reason why, in a reason conversation with my mother, when she asked if I'd want to have my dad give my (potential) future children baby blessings in the church, it was all I could do to not blurt out "HELL NO!"

Instead I said "I don't think so mom..."

 

[ronito]

The guilt and feelings of impurity affect boys too...In fact, I think the church's stances on "sexual purity" set me back years in my development.

That's one reason why, in a reason conversation with my mother, when she asked if I'd want to have my dad give my (potential) future children baby blessings in the church, it was all I could do to not blurt out "HELL NO!"

Instead I said "I don't think so mom..."

I do have to say that it's a bit different from guys to girls.
Yes I spent decades in guilt and was set back too in my development due to the anti-sex stuff. But you can't really put a lid on male sexuality, it will continue and lurk behind the scenes no matter what. But with women you can put a lid on it and shut it up. I've met many mormon women that have severe sexual dysfunction because they put such a tight lid on it that it's done them severe harm.

 

[Thaedolus]

Oh I agree that it's different, and probably more harmful to women than men, I'm just pointing out that it affects us both. Even to the point of a man having to let go of the idea that his partner is "chewed gum," even if that same standard doesn't apply to him. It's so stupid to think of it that way, but men raised to think that have to deprogram themselves from viewing women that way too, as well as their own personal feelings of guilt over what they've done.

In any case, I think the church's stance on sexuality is extremely damaging to both genders and there's no way in hell I'd let any of my children be indoctrinated in it. In fact, if we decide to have children, I'm almost certain I'll move out of Utah to rear them in a more "normal" environment.

 

[Hitokage]

Men get into the whole cycle of shame bit, while women have to deny much of their own body.

 

[peaceiscloser]

I remember the "What Would You Do?" episode that was set in Utah and was for the most part pretty much about Mormons. What really made me kinda sad was how realistic a good amount of the situations were even today for what they were testing.

They had this RM-type guy breaking off his engagement to a girl because she had committed sexual sin even though she confessed to the Bishop. and I think a lot of people were cheering him on for his choice.

Disgusting.

 

[ronito]

So the Elizabeth smart thing made it to NPR.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=182597615

 

[Laurentius]

I remember the "What Would You Do?" episode that was set in Utah and was for the most part pretty much about Mormons. What really made me kinda sad was how realistic a good amount of the situations were even today for what they were testing.

They had this RM-type guy breaking off his engagement to a girl because she had committed sexual sin even though she confessed to the Bishop. and I think a lot of people were cheering him on for his choice.

Disgusting.

Reminds of that seminary video where the same thing happens. (With a young Aaron Eckhart as well.)

 

[Yoritomo]

To be fair males share the same pressure but instead of virginity it's "going on a mission" which due to the raising the bar standards can also be about virginity and more depending on the bishop.

Hell Bednar recently suggested that women should ask men if they've ever looked at pornography and if they say yes to never date them.

The church heavily ties your self worth and worth to others romantically to pretty strict conformity. It's a heavy risk to venture outside of that conformity.

 

[Hitokage]

Hell Bednar recently suggested that women should ask men if they've ever looked at pornography and if they say yes to never date them.

Not even sought out or perused, but just looked? Never? So much for the miracle of forgiveness.

 

[ronito]

To be fair males share the same pressure but instead of virginity it's "going on a mission" which due to the raising the bar standards can also be about virginity and more depending on the bishop.

Hell Bednar recently suggested that women should ask men if they've ever looked at pornography and if they say yes to never date them.

The church heavily ties your self worth and worth to others romantically to pretty strict conformity. It's a heavy risk to venture outside of that conformity.

Yeah I guess that's true. Certainly as a guy who didn't go on a mission but attended BYU I can tell you from experience that being 20 years old at BYU back in the early 90s was one of the loneliest things I've ever gone through.

And what the hell Bednar? It reminds me of that thread I made about the woman who divorced her husband because he was surfinporn and then after she divorced him and was getting serious with another guy she found his stash too.

Like I've said so many times, the church has a terribly outdated and naive way of looking at sexuality

 

[Yoritomo]

Not even sought out or perused, but just looked? Never? So much for the miracle of forgiveness.

Here's what I can find of the quote.

Once you have dated a young man 4 or 5 times and you think he might be the one, pull him aside and ask him this question. Do you now or have you ever viewed pornography? If he even flinches a little bit, run away.

Ignoring the porn part I find it even more fascinating that he thinks you might know someone is "the one" after 4 or 5 dates.

 

[Hitokage]

Ignoring the porn part I find it even more fascinating that he thinks you might know someone is "the one" after 4 or 5 dates.

I agree. It speaks to the massive pressure to marry during college.

 

[Westonian]

I feel like this must be a Utah thing, like those weirdos that think drinking hot chocolate is against the Word of Wisdom.

When I asked my wife to marry me, she felt the need to confess things from her life, and I cut her off and said I didn't care what she did, I only care about what kind of person she is now.

The entire message of the Gospel is hope. Hope for better things, and God Himself has promised that He will forgive your sins and remember them no more. Clinging to or judging people by past mistakes seems counter to everything I've ever been taught about repentance.

 

[ronito]

Here's what I can find of the quote.



Ignoring the porn part I find it even more fascinating that he thinks you might know someone is "the one" after 4 or 5 dates.

There are just so many things wrong with that quote. So. Many. Things.

 

[Thaedolus]

Once you have dated a young man 4 or 5 times and you think he might be the one, pull him aside and ask him this question. Do you now or have you ever viewed pornography? If he even flinches a little bit, run away.

My response had I read that 8 years ago:

 

[AlteredBeast]

Here's what I can find of the quote.



Ignoring the porn part I find it even more fascinating that he thinks you might know someone is "the one" after 4 or 5 dates.

Eh, my parents dated once.

My dad proposed after two weeks. I never saw them fight or argue once in my entire life until my dad passed away. They were married 40 years at that point.

I don't see how that could be strange at all. I knew with my wife after a few dates that we would get married and, after one year, we did.

 

[Thaedolus]

Eh, my parents dated once.

My dad proposed after two weeks. I never saw them fight or argue once in my entire life until my dad passed away. They were married 40 years at that point.

I don't see how that could be strange at all. I knew with my wife after a few dates that we would get married and, after one year, we did.

While I don't deny your anecdotes, to use them to project as the norm is a little bit shaky don't you think?

 

[Yoritomo]

Well shit.

Looks like Zion IS in Missouri

http://www.house.mo.gov/billsummary.aspx?year=2013&bill=HB+436

 

[AlteredBeast]

While I don't deny your anecdotes, to use them to project as the norm is a little bit shaky don't you think?

I just think that it is unreasonable to think it is asinine that someone could know. I know many people mormon and non-mormon who would say otherwise.