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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

ronito

Member
wow, I really wish Corvo was still around to get his take on that article. I totally agree with it. But then I don't really know what the church is supposed to do about it. I mean they create this sort of chasm.

Baby
Nursery
Primary
Young Men/Young women (no dating until 16, nothing beyond basic kissing and even that should be restrained)
Mission
<Emptyness>
Marriage
Kids
????

Since they can't really drink or party hard or make out or anything most people that age do I don't really know what else they're supposed to do other than act like stunted adults.
 

Westonian

Member
Interesting editorial. I kind of think I was fortunate not do not have to experience my adolescence or young adult life in Utah. The first time I stepped foot in Utah was to enter the MTC and while I lived there while going to school, I was already married.

Our engagement would be considered absolutely bonkers by non-Mormon standards, and is still pretty crazy even then.

I was serving a mission in Moscow, Russia and getting the most craptacular mail imaginable. My companion took pity on my situation and had a friend of his start writing to me. She was a nice girl, attending BYU. After a few letters, where we played the pen-pal version of ask-me-anything, she said that she had a gorgeous, single older sister living in SLC who would love to get a letter from a random missionary. Due to my knowledge of her family from my AMA sessions with her little sister, I wrote a detailed letter to her as though we were long time friends, asking about her siblings and parents, and sharing anecdotes of my family as though she would have any idea who they were. I ended the missive with a short "PS: I really have no idea who you are. Your sister put me up to it."
This intrigued her enough to write back. By this time I only had a few weeks left and I returned home and promptly forgot about her.

After a few months of depressing prospects for dating (pro tip, do not serve a mission with an end date smack dab in the middle of a fall semester, because all of your friends will be away at school when you get back) I remember the girl from the letters and decided to give her a call. She was surprised to hear from me, but we spent the better part of two hours talking on the phone. The letters resumed and led to this new fangled invention called e-mail, more phone calls, and ultimately a trip for me to SLC. My original intent was to travel to SLC to see the homecoming of my best friend from my mission, but priorities had changed. I was smitten completely by this girl I had never actually met. I arrived on a Monday evening with Erica waiting for me at the gate. (I really miss airports pre-9/11.) After a few days seeing the sites, we went on our first real date to a Jazz game. One of my friend's family owned a suite, so I thought I would impress her with my sweet connections. She was impressed, and after the game we went back to her place. We were making out and I stopped and blurted out, "Will you marry me?" She was dumbstruck. Hesitated for a beat and then said, "Yes!" Followed by a "Holy crap this is insane!"

Her parents must have thought the same thing, because they flew up to SLC the next day. We were engaged April 9, 2009, married July 29, 2009, and four kids and fourteen years later couldn't be happier.

And the sex is awesome too.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Interesting editorial. I kind of think I was fortunate not do not have to experience my adolescence or young adult life in Utah. The first time I stepped foot in Utah was to enter the MTC and while I lived there while going to school, I was already married.

Our engagement would be considered absolutely bonkers by non-Mormon standards, and is still pretty crazy even then.

I was serving a mission in Moscow, Russia and getting the most craptacular mail imaginable. My companion took pity on my situation and had a friend of his start writing to me. She was a nice girl, attending BYU. After a few letters, where we played the pen-pal version of ask-me-anything, she said that she had a gorgeous, single older sister living in SLC who would love to get a letter from a random missionary. Due to my knowledge of her family from my AMA sessions with her little sister, I wrote a detailed letter to her as though we were long time friends, asking about her siblings and parents, and sharing anecdotes of my family as though she would have any idea who they were. I ended the missive with a short "PS: I really have no idea who you are. Your sister put me up to it."
This intrigued her enough to write back. By this time I only had a few weeks left and I returned home and promptly forgot about her.

After a few months of depressing prospects for dating (pro tip, do not serve a mission with an end date smack dab in the middle of a fall semester, because all of your friends will be away at school when you get back) I remember the girl from the letters and decided to give her a call. She was surprised to hear from me, but we spent the better part of two hours talking on the phone. The letters resumed and led to this new fangled invention called e-mail, more phone calls, and ultimately a trip for me to SLC. My original intent was to travel to SLC to see the homecoming of my best friend from my mission, but priorities had changed. I was smitten completely by this girl I had never actually met. I arrived on a Monday evening with Erica waiting for me at the gate. (I really miss airports pre-9/11.) After a few days seeing the sites, we went on our first real date to a Jazz game. One of my friend's family owned a suite, so I thought I would impress her with my sweet connections. She was impressed, and after the game we went back to her place. We were making out and I stopped and blurted out, "Will you marry me?" She was dumbstruck. Hesitated for a beat and then said, "Yes!" Followed by a "Holy crap this is insane!"

Her parents must have thought the same thing, because they flew up to SLC the next day. We were engaged April 9, 2009, married July 29, 2009, and four kids and fourteen years later couldn't be happier.

And the sex is awesome too.

Bravo, good sir!

This is what I am talking about. My parents met on a computer date (as they apparently called them back in the 60's) where couples were put together from different wards at a dance. They knew after that one date.

My wife's grandparents got married after one date. They are still together after 55ish years.

Like I said, not everyone knows, but the insinuation that you couldn't possibly know after 4-5 dates is insulting, since it has worked for millions of people, Mormon and non-Mormon.

and I will second the sex is awesome part. So glad my wife and I never did anything too stupid before we were married (I am sure that would make our exmos roll their eyes) and we only waited a year because I was flat ass broke going to college and couldn't buy her a ring, but still wanted to be a traditionalist. Then, after I asked her, her mom volunteered to pay for everything, but said she could only afford to do a reception and all that a few months after we were thinking. :p Nearly 6 years and 2 kids later, still going strong and loving life. My Patriarchal blessing indicated that my wife would always be able to stay home and take care of the kids and we would have enough money for the bills. and somehow, it has always worked out. We have always had enough to go around... :)
 

ronito

Member
I'm glad your guys are satisfied with your sex life. I'm reminded of several mormon couples that extolled how great their sex life was and when I asked about Oral and Anal and other stuff they gave the line that "There are some things you don't do even in marriage."

It really made me sad for them. I get the church pushing for sexual purity before marriage but I do find it ironic that a church that has a core teaching that we came to the world to gain a body and use it would have so many people in it that are like "Yeah except for..."
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Well anal is pretty fowl. Not sure why anyone would want to do anything up there. Definitely wasn't designed for any entrances. :p

But if couples want to do it, it is between them.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Well this is pretty abhorrent.

Daniel C Patterson, mormon apologist and BYU professor posted a picture of lynched black people to make fun of someone who was ridiculing the church's welfare program.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camels...-dead-bodies-of-lynched-blacks-as-a-gag-prop/

If I had posted something like that while I was at BYU as a student I'd be summarily kicked out.

pretty disgusting. To make his stupid point, he should have used a picture of any prisoner hanging, not of the racist, hateful south type.

Dumb person makes dumb mistakes.
 

Westonian

Member
What does anal have to do with birds?


My wife and I are plenty adventurous in the bedroom. I was always taught that what goes on in there is none of the Church's business, but that with all things in marriage the choices should be mutually agreed upon. Luckily neither of us were repressed by our upbringing.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
What does anal have to do with birds?


My wife and I are plenty adventurous in the bedroom. I was always taught that what goes on in there is none of the Church's business, but that with all things in marriage the choices should be mutually agreed upon. Luckily neither of us were repressed by our upbringing.

LOL.

Just disgusting, in my opinion.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
So. Some of you may know that I was married in the Chicago temple 14 years ago. And the experience of getting married in the temple, and the prep for it - namely, the endowment ceremony - put me on the path to becoming inactive. I've been fully inactive - just a few sacrament meeting cameos now and then - for six years now.

My wife and I have a kind of truce where I stay out of the church, the kids go with her, and we both know they'll make their own call one way or the other as they get older. But I don't push them in either direction. That's created a dynamic that the kids, as they've grown, have picked up on.

My older daughter, now 10, did not want to get baptized when she turned 8, which upset her grand parents a great deal. But I told them it was her decision, and I, and they, should respect it. As time has gone on it's evolved into open hostility to church, and I've struggled to justify to her why she has to go when she has (correctly, to my non-believing mind) believes it's "a bunch of nothing" and thus a waste of her time. We're starting to let her pull back, only attending sacrament and coming home with me. While she and I have talked about what I believed now and then, I made an effort not to push her either way. But she's clearly not buying it.

My younger daughter just turned 8, and she couldn't wait to get baptized. I feared her turning 8 for a few years, knowing my hands-off approach would have to come to an end. In the end, I compromised: I asked her grandfather to baptize her, to the delight of both of them. But before the baptism, I explained to her why I wasn't doing it: that it wasn't something I believed in. I told her that a lot of people did, and that it was okay if she did. But it was also okay to not. She cried a bit that I didn't believe in Jesus, but understood. And she was baptized last month. I was one of the official witnesses; I think it was important to me to be involved in some way, so I wasn't just washing my hands of it.

In the end I did what I always said I'd do: let them make up their own minds. But I always hoped that meant they'd both make up their mind and agree with me in the process. But of course, they're their own people, and I can't make that happen. And I think letting the kids make their own decisions is a big part of parenting. But I still can't shake the feeling that I am failing as a parent, because I'm letting my daughter get in deeper with something I fundamentally don't believe in, and I feel I know better than she. A big part of me is just screaming to pull her out before it really gets engrained in her.

But that's tempered with the fact that my wife is still a believer, and still goes to church, and is active. And I respect that. So I can't be in a position where I'm pulling the kids away from what she believes. So in the end, I'll do what I've been doing: stay neutral-ish and let them keep going on their own paths, letting them know time to time about why we are not all on the same ones. It breaks my heart but that's parenting in a nutshell, right?
 
So. Some of you may know that I was married in the Chicago temple 14 years ago. And the experience of getting married in the temple, and the prep for it - namely, the endowment ceremony - put me on the path to becoming inactive. I've been fully inactive - just a few sacrament meeting cameos now and then - for six years now.

My wife and I have a kind of truce where I stay out of the church, the kids go with her, and we both know they'll make their own call one way or the other as they get older. But I don't push them in either direction. That's created a dynamic that the kids, as they've grown, have picked up on.

My older daughter, now 10, did not want to get baptized when she turned 8, which upset her grand parents a great deal. But I told them it was her decision, and I, and they, should respect it. As time has gone on it's evolved into open hostility to church, and I've struggled to justify to her why she has to go when she has (correctly, to my non-believing mind) believes it's "a bunch of nothing" and thus a waste of her time. We're starting to let her pull back, only attending sacrament and coming home with me. While she and I have talked about what I believed now and then, I made an effort not to push her either way. But she's clearly not buying it.

My younger daughter just turned 8, and she couldn't wait to get baptized. I feared her turning 8 for a few years, knowing my hands-off approach would have to come to an end. In the end, I compromised: I asked her grandfather to baptize her, to the delight of both of them. But before the baptism, I explained to her why I wasn't doing it: that it wasn't something I believed in. I told her that a lot of people did, and that it was okay if she did. But it was also okay to not. She cried a bit that I didn't believe in Jesus, but understood. And she was baptized last month.

In the end I did what I always said I'd do: let them make up their own minds. But I always hoped that meant they'd both make up their mind and agree with me in the process. But of course, they're their own people, and I can't make that happen. And I think letting the kids make their own decisions is a big part of parenting. But I still can't shake the feeling that I am failing as a parent, because I'm letting my daughter get in deeper with something I fundamentally don't believe in, and I feel I know better than she. A big part of me is just screaming to pull her out before it really gets engrained in her.

But that's tempered with the fact that my wife is still a believer, and still goes to church, and is active. And I respect that. So I can't be in a position where I'm pulling the kids away from what she believes. So in the end, I'll do what I've been doing: stay neutral-ish and let them keep going on their own paths, letting them know time to time about why we are not all on the same ones. It breaks my heart but that's parenting in a nutshell, right?

Imagine what your wife must feel.

EDIT: To expound on that - it's tough going through that kind of situation whichever side of the coin you fall on.

I am curious though - what do you believe?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Imagine what your wife must feel.

EDIT: To expound on that - it's tough going through that kind of situation whichever side of the coin you fall on.

I am curious though - what do you believe?

Over time, I've become a total non-believer and find all aspects of religion to range from silly to weird. The time we have is the time we are alive. And I'm okay with that. I wasn't bothered by anything before I was born, and I won't be by anything after I go. I just want to make good use of the time I've got. That's life.

To your point, there are two sides of this coin, very true; I can only really comment on mine. Curious, is anyone else here in a mixed belief household? Wondering how common this is. It's not a major part of our marriage, but it's a backdrop I do struggle with.
 
Over time, I've become a total non-believer and find all aspects of religion to range from silly to weird. The time we have is the time we are alive. And I'm okay with that. I wasn't bothered by anything before I was born, and I won't be by anything after I go. I just want to make good use of the time I've got. That's life.

To your point, there are two sides of this coin, very true; I can only really comment on mine.

Thanks for the clarification of your position. While I can't say that I agree, I do understand. It's a position that my brother has recently shifted to.

As for myself, I tended to do what was expected of me though I had my own questions and doubts. That included serving a mission which has left an indelible impression on my perception of God, our relationship with Him, and our relationship with each other. Now these impressions and feelings are just that - and as such are nigh impossible to express properly in this type of setting - but they have served me so well in my life that I am left with no reason to doubt or discard them. But it's not something that can be easily developed or retained. Like the best of any knowledge, it requires an intense desire to acquire and a lot of hard work.

So yeah, it is something that I feel strongly about.

EDIT: Aside from my brother's inactivity, my father was excommunicated some time ago and I haven't really been able to broach the subject. However, he was very supportive of my mission.
 

Thaedolus

Member
Ghaleon, I think you're doing the right thing. I didn't like the fact I was forced to go to church as a kid, and any questioning of it was met with open hostility. The fact that you allow your daughters (truly allow) to make their own choices, either for or against the religion, is the best thing to do. In the end they'll grow up doing what they want to do and not feeling the resentment that comes from being forced. If only we all could be so lucky to have had a father like that...
 

ronitoswife

Neo Member
Article that kind of talks about what has been discussed here.

The Infantilisation of Young Single Adults

http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2013/05/the-infantilisation-of-young-single.html

I think this article was very well written and brings to light what many single adults experience. I remember it all too well. I actually refused to go to a singles ward after I came home from my mission for some of these reasons. I was lucky that my home ward utilized me in roles of leadership(primary teacher, primary presidency, young womens presidency, assistant camp director). I know many single adults in home wards aren't given those opportunities. I find that sad really. I think all family/home wards could benefit by utilizing their single adults without making them feel inferior and/or child like. It's not just with scavenger hunts and blanket forts and cookies for the missionaries. Some may have fun at those activities but how do you really get to know someone while you're scurrying around the mall on a scavenger hunt. I do believe there are unintended repercussions with the ysa program especially with how single adults are treated. In the eyes of society they are old enough to live on their own and begin their careers but they must still be chaperoned by married couples when they have their group activities. I also think that it is a cultural thing within the church that also extends to how they are treated outside of church activities. I remember one time a nurse that would come in to care for one of the residents at the assisted living home I worked for. She and I had started to become friends and she started to let me borrow some books and audio books. One time she started to talk about a certain book( I can't remember the name of it) and that she wanted to lend it to me but then changed her mind because it had parts in the book that really should be read by someone who was married and had experienced that as a married person. I was 28 years old! I was old enough to own my own car, care for elderly with Alzheimers and dementia, live on my own while attending school and pay for all my own expenses but since I wasn't married I apparently wasn't adult enough to read this book. However a younger 20 year old co worker was okay to read the book because she was lucky to be married. I smiled and said that was okay because I knew her intentions weren't to be offensive, but I seriously felt like I was 5 years old after that. I do believe that the strong emphasis of being pure and chaste until married plays a huge role in this behavior and treatment. Some of it goes on without thinking while other times it's very intentional. I was constantly getting "be careful, remember who you are and what you represent" talk every time I would go on a date with a new guy. My mom was always so worried that I wouldn't be able to handle my own emotions. I understand saying something like that when you're 16 but I was in my late twenties. When Ronito and I got married we didn't go through the temple(much to my family's dismay). We needed a clearance from his first marriage. I went in to ask a former bishop of mine if he would be the one to marry us. After I explained our situation he still proceeded to bring out the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet and read the part of chastity to me saying that even though I wasn't getting married in the temple It didn't mean that I no longer had to live by those rules. I still had to follow them. Again I smiled and reassured him that I remembered that I should still follow the rules and that we had set rules for ourselves. I knew he meant well, but I was 29 years old! It was so frustrating and humiliating to be read to from a pamphlet meant for teenagers.

I completely agree with the sentiment that the church and it's members do in fact, whether they realize it or not, treat it's single adults(young and older) like they are stunted adults(as Ronito put it) and are incomplete. This is an issue within the church that many don't even realize it is one or how big of one it is. It's been embedded in the culture for so long that it seems unlikely to change anytime soon. I do hope however, that is will continue to be addressed. It really is something that needs to change from within.
 
Article that kind of talks about what has been discussed here.

The Infantilisation of Young Single Adults

http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2013/05/the-infantilisation-of-young-single.html

Interesting article. I've seen the same issue. I wonder if it's a problem in other cultures, or fairly unique to Mormonism?

The other night I was hanging out with some people (pretty sure they were almost all Mormons). When deciding what to do, they said they wanted to go find a playground and play "the ground is lava". They were completely serious too. Luckily they decided not to, or else I would have been going home. I honestly think it would have been creepy for a bunch of 20-30 year olds jumping around on a playground.

On my mission, I at least felt like I was doing something important and mature, and that I was needed by people. (Although the more missionaries you get together, the faster their maturity level drops. Luckily, I was generally in areas with just the two of us, with the closest missionaries 30+ minutes away or so.) I have plenty of negative to say about my mission and missions in general, but one of the best things was feeling like I had a purpose the entire time, and was generally treated like an adult.

Then I get home, and we're doing silly scavenger hunts and playing dumb games at single's ward FHE's. All the while being told that our progress has essentially stopped until we get married.

Screw that. I've decided that I'm perfectly happy not being married, and that my progress as a human is in no way limited by my being single (might be the opposite, in fact, after observing some people's marriages). If it happens someday, great, but if not, I won't feel any less of myself.
 

Onikaan

Member
Ghaleon, I think you're doing the right thing. I didn't like the fact I was forced to go to church as a kid, and any questioning of it was met with open hostility. The fact that you allow your daughters (truly allow) to make their own choices, either for or against the religion, is the best thing to do. In the end they'll grow up doing what they want to do and not feeling the resentment that comes from being forced. If only we all could be so lucky to have had a father like that...

I agree.

My father never forced me to go to church, and he was always careful never to tell me what I should believe, even though he had gone through a miraculous conversion. Once I was old enough to be at home on my own I told him I didn't want to go anymore, and that was that.

It saddens me that people are shunned by their own family members for making their own decisions. No one can be forced into the Kingdom of God. I am thankful for my dad and that he allowed me to search on my own. I now take great interest in theology without resentment of the idea because it was never something that was forced upon me.
 

Thaedolus

Member
Screw that. I've decided that I'm perfectly happy not being married, and that my progress as a human is in no way limited by my being single (might be the opposite, in fact, after observing some people's marriages). If it happens someday, great, but if not, I won't feel any less of myself.

Bahaha, that was exactly where I was at before I met my woman.

Seriously though, I think part of being an adult is being able to socialize without any dumb activities attached. I don't mind board games or whatever, but even just sitting around a fire in the back yard with or without some cocktails is a good time. My idea of a good date is skiing, hiking, biking or something followed by some dinner and tasty beer. Scavenger hunt? Building pillow forts? Ugh, reminds me of the time I asked out this banging hot girl in my ward and after our date she wanted to watch Peter Pan.

Yes, I'm a 22 year old man and I want to watch Peter f'ing Pan. -_-
 

CorvoSol

Member
wow, I really wish Corvo was still around to get his take on that article. I totally agree with it. But then I don't really know what the church is supposed to do about it. I mean they create this sort of chasm.

Baby
Nursery
Primary
Young Men/Young women (no dating until 16, nothing beyond basic kissing and even that should be restrained)
Mission
<Emptyness>
Marriage
Kids
????

Since they can't really drink or party hard or make out or anything most people that age do I don't really know what else they're supposed to do other than act like stunted adults.

I've read the article and am giving it a thought as I go, which I am learning ever more is a strategy I ought not to employ, my tongue being considerably quicker to move than my brain to think reasonably.

That said, I cannot, completely, agree with the editorial's main point: that the treatment of YSA renders them infantile. I do agree that there is an emotional, mental, whatever we'd like to term it gap into which the post-missionary (or, as is the case for no small number, non-mission-serving) young single adults fall in to. At times, it feels as though the time spent as a YSA is viewed more as an error, than a period in which a young person ought to be figuring themselves out. Make no mistake: I love and feel loved by my Branch Presidency, and my feeling out-of-place in branches has more to do with the fact that I bounce between branches than the organization thereof, but there can be no denying that the YSA period of one's life is viewed as unfortunate in an unspoken sort of way. Which is to say, nothing is said, the days when one was a "menace to society" have by and large faded from my experience, but where the young adult who weds is lauded and the envy of his friends, the single adult is still adrift.

But I'm going off track from what I want to say. I don't agree that it makes one infantile, but I DO agree that the young single adult period does leave one in an awkward, unusual phase that does leave its own scars. It's been my experience that as a YSA more emphasis is put upon doing the "macho" things than the infantile. To have employment, status, and purchasing power, in addition to physique and skill or talent render one more apt to excel in the ring, so to speak. I'm sure those of you familiar with the YSA scene will recall those scenes on Sundays where the one pretty boy or one pretty girl has an entire row of the opposite sex at their beck and call.

I confess I haven't spent a lot of time with young women at school this last year, my fall semester having been dominated by a full schedule, my winter by the great misfortune of only meeting women beneath my age range. What time I HAVE spent with them, though, I would consider normal behavior for people my age: Watching scary movies, participating in sports, sharing meals or what have you. What my roommates who had girlfriends did with them in private is beyond my capacity to say, since, well, I wasn't exactly present.

But there is merit to what is being said. It's been discussed here and is becoming, only slowly, a topic of discussion in Rexburg (usually among the more open-minded faculty) that the population is woefully repressed sexually, and that the faculty literature does nothing to alleviate this. Which is to say, while the Law of Chastity must be upheld, and wisdom cautions that physical contact must have limitations, there is no reason that we ought to call down the puritanical hellfire some members of the faculty launch against the dread scourge of the NCMO or Non-committal Make Out.

I don't think Scavenger Hunts are so bad, but I also like Obstacle Courses and Capture the Flag, so what do I know? Blanket forts, sure, that might be going a bit far. However, I'd like to point out this problem is one I would consider largely characteristic of the American Church. None of my companions in Brazil seemed so puritanical, and to be honest, the first time that anyone in the Church ever spoke frankly to me about sex was on my Mission: which is a failure of colossal proportions to follow through with what is being taught. I have a father, and yes, my father did sit and talk to me and teach me because that's what dad's do, but I think it is only fair to say that a young man requires more than JUST his dad, and when he has so many men he is being told to look to, and they're taking the time to speak about sex on some level, then he is owed, at the very least, a little frankness.

As you can see, I'm not at all very organized with this, so I'll just try and sum up: I don't think the YSA is becoming infantile, since so much focus is being put on growing up, but I concede that the YSA are sort of left hanging out there, waiting to get on a bus either to the SA or the family wards, which is a directionless and unfortunate state. I think that the unwillingness to even discuss sex beyond condemnation of its sinful employ is a major stumbling block the modern American Church must over come, and it does leave the young single adults feeling out of place and odd among their non-member peers.

Above all, though, for me, is the very odd, open-ended nature of the post-mission path for a member of the Church. When I came home from my Mission, I crashed because life was just so different. I felt aimless, forgotten, and completely lost. I'd gone two years in a completely different world, and come home to find that everything was different, the same, and nobody cared after I'd lost my "shine". Those same stares of "Why haven't you left for your mission yet?" were and are replaced with "Why aren't you wed yet?" At least, I felt that way. Getting it back together again was hard for me, if not for others, and it feels indicative of the fact that there is just a big empty space for YSA.

I don't really know how helpful this is, or informative, or whatever. I can only really describe what it is like from my own point of view, that for an RM who has come home, life is a bit disappointing at times. That said, it isn't ALL awful. I've had some good experiences as a Young Single Adult. Some fun at FHE (though I suppose it is juvenile), College is becoming a more enjoyable experience as I learn to make it so, and the like. Some spiritual experiences, too. Life can be frustrating as a YSA sometimes, and the temptation to blame it all on being a member can be big, too, but as I said, there's fun to be had, and not all of it juvenile.

Speaking of people who don't go to single's ward, there was this one girl I met at a dinner awhile back who doesn't go to single's wards because well who needs a good reason. I really out to find a way to run into her again . . .
 
Article that kind of talks about what has been discussed here.

The Infantilisation of Young Single Adults

http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2013/05/the-infantilisation-of-young-single.html

I'm a pre-missionary in my apartment of RMs all over the age of 22, and so you would think being the young guy would show you how immature you are.

Sadly this isn't the case at all, as most of my older roommates are making fart noises and telling the same racist/misogynist jokes that were funny when I was 12.

Also one of my roommates was making puerile sex jokes when we were watching Miyazaki's Castle in the Sky, of all things.

I'm really disappointed by a lot of the YSA here in Rexburg.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
I'm a pre-missionary in my apartment of RMs all over the age of 22, and so you would think being the young guy would show you how immature you are.

Sadly this isn't the case at all, as most of my older roommates are making fart noises and telling the same racist/misogynist jokes that were funny when I was 12.

Also one of my roommates was making puerile sex jokes when we were watching Miyazaki's Castle in the Sky, of all things.

I'm really disappointed by a lot of the YSA here in Rexburg.

I find that a lot of people don't mature until they are either on their own (not in an apartment or dorm with like-aged single people) or married.

I know my buddies and I, post mission, loved our fair share of dick jokes and the like. Now I am married, and those things are not as funny...
 

Fathead

Member
I haven't been a college age single guy in a decade (wow i am old), so I can't speak to what that is like, but I can see the perception in normal wards of "if you aren't married and pumping out babies, you aren't really a grown up". There is a very strong cultural thing about YSAs. Every Elder's quorum ive been in has clearly aligned along married and non married lines, and the single dudes get treated like they are children.

If you get treated like a child, eventually you will act like one.
 

ronito

Member
Man, there's a lot of stuff on this page. I'll get to everything at some point
So. Some of you may know that I was married in the Chicago temple 14 years ago. And the experience of getting married in the temple, and the prep for it - namely, the endowment ceremony - put me on the path to becoming inactive. I've been fully inactive - just a few sacrament meeting cameos now and then - for six years now.

My wife and I have a kind of truce where I stay out of the church, the kids go with her, and we both know they'll make their own call one way or the other as they get older. But I don't push them in either direction. That's created a dynamic that the kids, as they've grown, have picked up on.

My older daughter, now 10, did not want to get baptized when she turned 8, which upset her grand parents a great deal. But I told them it was her decision, and I, and they, should respect it. As time has gone on it's evolved into open hostility to church, and I've struggled to justify to her why she has to go when she has (correctly, to my non-believing mind) believes it's "a bunch of nothing" and thus a waste of her time. We're starting to let her pull back, only attending sacrament and coming home with me. While she and I have talked about what I believed now and then, I made an effort not to push her either way. But she's clearly not buying it.

My younger daughter just turned 8, and she couldn't wait to get baptized. I feared her turning 8 for a few years, knowing my hands-off approach would have to come to an end. In the end, I compromised: I asked her grandfather to baptize her, to the delight of both of them. But before the baptism, I explained to her why I wasn't doing it: that it wasn't something I believed in. I told her that a lot of people did, and that it was okay if she did. But it was also okay to not. She cried a bit that I didn't believe in Jesus, but understood. And she was baptized last month. I was one of the official witnesses; I think it was important to me to be involved in some way, so I wasn't just washing my hands of it.

In the end I did what I always said I'd do: let them make up their own minds. But I always hoped that meant they'd both make up their mind and agree with me in the process. But of course, they're their own people, and I can't make that happen. And I think letting the kids make their own decisions is a big part of parenting. But I still can't shake the feeling that I am failing as a parent, because I'm letting my daughter get in deeper with something I fundamentally don't believe in, and I feel I know better than she. A big part of me is just screaming to pull her out before it really gets engrained in her.

But that's tempered with the fact that my wife is still a believer, and still goes to church, and is active. And I respect that. So I can't be in a position where I'm pulling the kids away from what she believes. So in the end, I'll do what I've been doing: stay neutral-ish and let them keep going on their own paths, letting them know time to time about why we are not all on the same ones. It breaks my heart but that's parenting in a nutshell, right?

I know how you feel man. When I first married my wife I was fairly active in the church but had my doubts. Over the years I went from fairly active, to sorta active, to fairly inactive to no longer active at all. Luckily my wife was great from the get go and constantly held to the belief of "I married you, not the church."

I'll admit that I was very lucky that over the years my wife had her own disaffection and now we're at the same place. But really for us it was just a difference not one that caused a lot of marital strife like other marriages.

I was also worried about my kids if they had stayed. I actually don't think the church does too bad with kids until they're about 11. At least no worse than any other church. It's once they reach their teens that I think it goes from fairly innocuous to toxic. Luckily for me my eldest is much like your eldest, when we stopped going she was relieved. She thought the whole thing was silly and didn't get it at all.

I will say my second eldest, is much like yours. He doesn't miss church so much, but when we talk about how we used to go to church you can see he sorta misses it and wants to believe in something, or at least would if we were to propose something to him.

My advice is the same as I give anyone. Be a good, moral, and happy person. Really that will do more to show your kids how to live with the church than anything else. The church's culture holds that people leave because they've been offended, wanted to sin, or didn't understand it and after they leave they're bitter and miserable. If you show your kids a person who understands the religion, didn't leave because they were offended or wanted to sin and they're happy it'll open their minds to a whole new world of possiblility.

As much as we don't want it to be this way Parenting is a lot like Programming. At your worst you can do a ton of damage but even at your best you cannot assure success.
 

ronito

Member
I've read the article and am giving it a thought as I go, which I am learning ever more is a strategy I ought not to employ, my tongue being considerably quicker to move than my brain to think reasonably.

That said, I cannot, completely, agree with the editorial's main point: that the treatment of YSA renders them infantile. I do agree that there is an emotional, mental, whatever we'd like to term it gap into which the post-missionary (or, as is the case for no small number, non-mission-serving) young single adults fall in to. At times, it feels as though the time spent as a YSA is viewed more as an error, than a period in which a young person ought to be figuring themselves out. Make no mistake: I love and feel loved by my Branch Presidency, and my feeling out-of-place in branches has more to do with the fact that I bounce between branches than the organization thereof, but there can be no denying that the YSA period of one's life is viewed as unfortunate in an unspoken sort of way. Which is to say, nothing is said, the days when one was a "menace to society" have by and large faded from my experience, but where the young adult who weds is lauded and the envy of his friends, the single adult is still adrift.

But I'm going off track from what I want to say. I don't agree that it makes one infantile, but I DO agree that the young single adult period does leave one in an awkward, unusual phase that does leave its own scars. It's been my experience that as a YSA more emphasis is put upon doing the "macho" things than the infantile. To have employment, status, and purchasing power, in addition to physique and skill or talent render one more apt to excel in the ring, so to speak. I'm sure those of you familiar with the YSA scene will recall those scenes on Sundays where the one pretty boy or one pretty girl has an entire row of the opposite sex at their beck and call.

I confess I haven't spent a lot of time with young women at school this last year, my fall semester having been dominated by a full schedule, my winter by the great misfortune of only meeting women beneath my age range. What time I HAVE spent with them, though, I would consider normal behavior for people my age: Watching scary movies, participating in sports, sharing meals or what have you. What my roommates who had girlfriends did with them in private is beyond my capacity to say, since, well, I wasn't exactly present.

But there is merit to what is being said. It's been discussed here and is becoming, only slowly, a topic of discussion in Rexburg (usually among the more open-minded faculty) that the population is woefully repressed sexually, and that the faculty literature does nothing to alleviate this. Which is to say, while the Law of Chastity must be upheld, and wisdom cautions that physical contact must have limitations, there is no reason that we ought to call down the puritanical hellfire some members of the faculty launch against the dread scourge of the NCMO or Non-committal Make Out.

I don't think Scavenger Hunts are so bad, but I also like Obstacle Courses and Capture the Flag, so what do I know? Blanket forts, sure, that might be going a bit far. However, I'd like to point out this problem is one I would consider largely characteristic of the American Church. None of my companions in Brazil seemed so puritanical, and to be honest, the first time that anyone in the Church ever spoke frankly to me about sex was on my Mission: which is a failure of colossal proportions to follow through with what is being taught. I have a father, and yes, my father did sit and talk to me and teach me because that's what dad's do, but I think it is only fair to say that a young man requires more than JUST his dad, and when he has so many men he is being told to look to, and they're taking the time to speak about sex on some level, then he is owed, at the very least, a little frankness.

As you can see, I'm not at all very organized with this, so I'll just try and sum up: I don't think the YSA is becoming infantile, since so much focus is being put on growing up, but I concede that the YSA are sort of left hanging out there, waiting to get on a bus either to the SA or the family wards, which is a directionless and unfortunate state. I think that the unwillingness to even discuss sex beyond condemnation of its sinful employ is a major stumbling block the modern American Church must over come, and it does leave the young single adults feeling out of place and odd among their non-member peers.

Above all, though, for me, is the very odd, open-ended nature of the post-mission path for a member of the Church. When I came home from my Mission, I crashed because life was just so different. I felt aimless, forgotten, and completely lost. I'd gone two years in a completely different world, and come home to find that everything was different, the same, and nobody cared after I'd lost my "shine". Those same stares of "Why haven't you left for your mission yet?" were and are replaced with "Why aren't you wed yet?" At least, I felt that way. Getting it back together again was hard for me, if not for others, and it feels indicative of the fact that there is just a big empty space for YSA.

I don't really know how helpful this is, or informative, or whatever. I can only really describe what it is like from my own point of view, that for an RM who has come home, life is a bit disappointing at times. That said, it isn't ALL awful. I've had some good experiences as a Young Single Adult. Some fun at FHE (though I suppose it is juvenile), College is becoming a more enjoyable experience as I learn to make it so, and the like. Some spiritual experiences, too. Life can be frustrating as a YSA sometimes, and the temptation to blame it all on being a member can be big, too, but as I said, there's fun to be had, and not all of it juvenile.

Speaking of people who don't go to single's ward, there was this one girl I met at a dinner awhile back who doesn't go to single's wards because well who needs a good reason. I really out to find a way to run into her again . . .
Thanks for coming back.

I think the church is caught in a catch 22, some would take them scaling back on the sexual repression as being more permissive about sex. As much as I complain about the church's toxicity about sex I don't really know what they could do to change it without backtracking to some point.
 

ronito

Member
Actually scratch that. The church could start by stopping shit like this
orange.jpg


Oh noes! Spaghetti straps!!
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
I think the church is caught in a catch 22, some would take them scaling back on the sexual repression as being more permissive about sex. As much as I complain about the church's toxicity about sex I don't really know what they could do to change it without backtracking to some point.
Are these really separable, though? If you stop being in denial then you have to readjust to handle the problems you're now acknowledging.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Just caught the latter half of The Truman Show on AMC, and while the setting employed necessitates the introduction of paranoia that doesn't necessarily apply here and it certainly speaks to a range of situations rather than any specific one, no other film better captures the invested exmormon experience.
 

Yoritomo

Member
Wait, as in Moore, OK?

Is that where you live? Are you and yours ok?

No I grew up there. Spent 18 years there graduated from Moore High School and still go back to visit. I lived there long enough and it's a small enough town that I recognized people I knew in the news feeds. 5 or 6 friends have lost their homes but everyone is alive and unhurt. Full set of cousins live in OK still and 1 set of grandparents are in Moore. They're all ok. Regardless of my personal beliefs it fills me with pride to see people I know from my home ward keeping the sabbath day holy by working their asses off helping each other.

I'm only 2 1/2 hours away and they've just removed the checkpoints so I may spend the weekend helping out.
 

ronito

Member
No I grew up there. Spent 18 years there graduated from Moore High School and still go back to visit. I lived there long enough and it's a small enough town that I recognized people I knew in the news feeds. 5 or 6 friends have lost their homes but everyone is alive and unhurt. Full set of cousins live in OK still and 1 set of grandparents are in Moore. They're all ok. Regardless of my personal beliefs it fills me with pride to see people I know from my home ward keeping the sabbath day holy by working their asses off helping each other.

I'm only 2 1/2 hours away and they've just removed the checkpoints so I may spend the weekend helping out.
It sucks that your friends lost their homes but it's good news that everyone's all right.

I think they should replace fast sunday with service sunday, personally.
I don't know. I actually love the idea of taking that money you would've spent on food for those days and putting it to helping the poor in the ward. Of course I don't think the rest of the day should be spent spiritually patting yourself on the back. I think it'd be great to have it be about service. However, logistically having people do hard work on an empty stomach just doesn't seem like a wise idea.
 

Fathead

Member
Then make it the last sunday of the month. Pass the sacrament and then off to service. Serve your fellow man and woman and child.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Then make the last sunday of the month. Pass the sacrament and then off to service. Serve your fellow man and woman and child.

My favorite sacrament meeting ever was the time we all showed up in work gear to help the city out following a huge snow storm.

Never forget.
 

ronito

Member
So supposedly there's some "historic" announcement today ? I guess consensus is that it has to do with missions or something. Anyone know what's up?
 
So supposedly there's some "historic" announcement today ? I guess consensus is that it has to do with missions or something. Anyone know what's up?

Listening right now. So far - the internet is being opened up as a resource to missionaries. Also, meetinghouses will remain open for guided tours.
 

ronito

Member
So less tracting, and using the internet. Not necessarily as earth shattering as everyone was making it out to be. Overall, it was just like blacks and the priesthood, only a decade and a half too late.

Really they should've been doing this for ages now, virtually every missionary I know said that tracting was largely a waste of time. And I'm glad to see that women can sit in councils too. But it'll come down to execution. I mean if they get no say in final decisions then it's just a symbolic move.

I sorta get/don't get the meeting house thing. I was always perplexed at the "Vistiors Welcome" signs on churches because I always wondered how visitors would even know to visit. And even if the church had the hours on the front they wouldn't know where to go or what to do. So I get the whole idea of letting people stop by whenever. However, What's there to really see in a Mormon church? A temple I totally get but in a church? "Here's the cultural hall...yeah.". I also think it'll be one of those things that never get used like bosses that have an "Open door" policy. Sure they make sure EVERYONE knows they can stop by whenever but no one ever stops by.

I do think the church is doing the right thing I think they get that business as usual isn't going to cut it. They either have to fight for their existence or they're done. Frankly I'm surprised it's taken them this long to make any changes like this. Next I think they should knock that 3 hour block down to 2 hours.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
So less tracting, and using the internet. Not necessarily as earth shattering as everyone was making it out to be. Overall, it was just like blacks and the priesthood, only a decade and a half too late.

Really they should've been doing this for ages now, virtually every missionary I know said that tracting was largely a waste of time. And I'm glad to see that women can sit in councils too. But it'll come down to execution. I mean if they get no say in final decisions then it's just a symbolic move.

I sorta get/don't get the meeting house thing. I was always perplexed at the "Vistiors Welcome" signs on churches because I always wondered how visitors would even know to visit. And even if the church had the hours on the front they wouldn't know where to go or what to do. So I get the whole idea of letting people stop by whenever. However, What's there to really see in a Mormon church? A temple I totally get but in a church? "Here's the cultural hall...yeah.". I also think it'll be one of those things that never get used like bosses that have an "Open door" policy. Sure they make sure EVERYONE knows they can stop by whenever but no one ever stops by.

I do think the church is doing the right thing I think they get that business as usual isn't going to cut it. They either have to fight for their existence or they're done. Frankly I'm surprised it's taken them this long to make any changes like this. Next I think they should knock that 3 hour block down to 2 hours.

2-hour church has long been rumored, but who knows. Less passing time and shortened class times would make so much sense.

I don't know of too many missionaries in the last 10 years who have tracted on a regular basis. We only did it at most 10 times in my two years in the mission... Other than that, it was all referrals and service. Better that way.
 
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