Laurentius
Member
I've heard a few people equate Star Wars to the gospel before...apparently the Force == the Priesthood, Midi-chlorians == the Spirit, etc.
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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts
- Thread starter ronito
- Start date
I've been seeing the "Don't judge someone because they sin differently than you" signs posted in a few chapels. Don't know if this is an actual thing or a coincidence, but I've seen it in like 3-4 different chapels now out in the foyer or on announcement boards. It's never been in anything other than a simple font taking up a whole page, so it's not official church material, but it's weird that I've seen it in two different cities now.
This neatly falls under "do not test God".
Edit :/ Sorry
Yeah but the Prodigal Son came out 2000 years ago. It's okay to spoil that. I can't go and see Jesus tell that live. This movie isn't out of theaters yet.
I used to think that, but let me tell you, since coming to BYUI I have met people who think that Disney is terrible. My world view and view of US Mormon Culture has expanded significantly since starting here, haha.
Which is a fair point. I mostly want people to actually argue on this issue instead of unilaterally declaring that nobody shall talk about anything without redacting like we're in the CIA. :/
Why would you do this? This is bad, man.
I remember when I was 12, my uncle on my dad's side of the family was battling cancer. This uncle was not a member of the church, but he asked for a priesthood blessing. My other uncle (from my mom's side of the family) was in town, and my dad asked him to come help with the blessing. His prognosis looked positive, but he was nervous about a phone call he was waiting on from his doctor about recent tests. My two uncles did not know each other at all, but my (mom's side) uncle did the actual blessing, my dad the anointing.
Several times my uncle tried to say that he would be made whole and healed. He started the sentence multiple times and his voice would just halt. It was like, "we bless you with the ability to rec--, to be able to be hea--" and then he finally just said, "to be comfortable throughout this process and a continued blessing to your family."
The phone call came a couple of days later and the cancer had spread to his liver. My uncle died a few months later. We asked uncle that gave the blessing about that day, and he said that he could vividly see images that told him that my uncle would not live, but that his passing would be peaceful. These two didn't know each other, but I have no doubt that his blessing was given through guidance from the Spirit.
My uncle did die peacefully. He was at home with hospice care, but 100% alert until he died. He even turned to my aunt and asked her if she was ready for him to go, and she told him to let go and that she would be ok. He talked to his son one last time, who was 6 years old, and explained what was happening. After that, he said, "ok, it's time for me to move on," and he died almost immediately after. No coma, nothing dragged out. He just relaxed and died.
I've also seen the other side of it where an actual and miraculous healing happened, but that's a deeply spiritual experience and I don't really want to share that so openly here.
You know, I've heard this from others as well. I think it's got to do with the whole "new order mormon" /"Stay mormon" thing that Dehlin and his followers have been pushing so hard the last few years.
People thinking they can change the church from within if they just persist/push enough. I get the desire to do this. Hell, I used to be one. But it's really an untenable position that hurts and you want very much to believe that you can stay if things would just change a little. But really the changes you're asking for a huge and they're just not going to happen.
I think that the whole "NOM" thing should be like a halfway house to help people deal with the grief of leaving. instead people have treated it like a destination an end journey. Stay in and stay forever. I don't think that's anymore feasible than the church's stance of "Sure you can be gay and mormon, just don't act gay."
You're right, I apologize.
still man, you're messing with people's faith. You'd do better just to leave it alone and give them some comfort.
Edit: You're correct.
In hindsight my comments today are pretty aggressive and are going to make believing members really uncomfortable.
If you want I can delete them.
Edit: I editted my comments. It is pretty aggressive and cruel. Having lost my faith but still having everything deep down that used to indicate my faith and knowledge of the gospel while retaining everything that made me a great teacher, evangelist, and spiritual counselor still throws me for a loop.
If you want I can delete them.
Edit: I editted my comments. It is pretty aggressive and cruel. Having lost my faith but still having everything deep down that used to indicate my faith and knowledge of the gospel while retaining everything that made me a great teacher, evangelist, and spiritual counselor still throws me for a loop.
I dunno about blesssings. I've had friends that have had that "This guy isn't going to live." thing happen when they're about to give a blessing, and I trust them. And there's all sorts of unexplained things.
For example my ex's father is an incredibly hardcore mormon (YSA bishop, in the running for being a misssion president that kinda guy) and he used to hometeach an inactive guy who had a serious case of stomach cancer. Well my ex's father gave him a blessing that if he left his life of sin behind and went to church that his cancer would go away, but that he had to stay on the straight and narrow.
The guy agreed and the next check up the doctors said it was a miracle because the cancer went into remission and was barely detectable. This lasted a few months until the guy stopped going to church. And my ex's father (who would take him to church) would stop by his house every Sunday and the guy would say he was too busy, or too tired. And he wouldn't read scriptures or anything. My ex's father warned him about living up to his side of the deal and the guy ignored him. Sure enough the guy's cancer came back with a vengeance and the guy was dead within 6 weeks.
Too strange to be a coincidence, but also it seems so petty I don't want to believe any of it. But there's loads of stuff like that.
For example my ex's father is an incredibly hardcore mormon (YSA bishop, in the running for being a misssion president that kinda guy) and he used to hometeach an inactive guy who had a serious case of stomach cancer. Well my ex's father gave him a blessing that if he left his life of sin behind and went to church that his cancer would go away, but that he had to stay on the straight and narrow.
The guy agreed and the next check up the doctors said it was a miracle because the cancer went into remission and was barely detectable. This lasted a few months until the guy stopped going to church. And my ex's father (who would take him to church) would stop by his house every Sunday and the guy would say he was too busy, or too tired. And he wouldn't read scriptures or anything. My ex's father warned him about living up to his side of the deal and the guy ignored him. Sure enough the guy's cancer came back with a vengeance and the guy was dead within 6 weeks.
Too strange to be a coincidence, but also it seems so petty I don't want to believe any of it. But there's loads of stuff like that.
I was all in man. The few things I recounted, the healings, vision after 5 hours of prayer, deep spiritual connection and power, were rocks to me in my faith. But that spirtual foundation that I built my testimony on inoculated me from actual belief once I deconstructed the spirit.
Fundamentally I do not trust my own experience or conviction in basically anything. I rely on logic and science because the only thing I know is that I can't trust my gut for big decisions.
I guess this could be a good time to share my current experiences with the church. Specially because I have meeting with missionaries tomorrow, and I'm trying to think of things to bring tomorrow.
Last year I started a relationship with this girl, who is a member of the church. Of course, because of being raised on the church, it became her dream to marry a member and be sealed in a temple marriage, so here it comes the problem: I'm an atheist, so this dream can't really be fulfilled without I'm start believing in God and get baptized. Since I consider myself an open person, so I asked myself "Why not?" and started attend the church, to see if they can change my mind.
So, for the last six/seven months, I've been attending the church's stakes near my house, my GF's stake and even in other state and country. I also got weekly meeting with Missionaries. Overall, most of members I met were great people and I never felt uncomfortable in meetings. I could see myself living on this lifestyle, save for not drinking coffee, that can be a bit difficult, but not impossible. (Already pulled two weeks without coffee)
The main problem is that I still don't have a response that can confirm everything I'm being taught is true. And I'm not sure about leaving to my feelings alone to confirm that everything is true. I know that if I want everything to be true, I'll get a positive response. And that is my main problem. If I really want something to be true, I'll get a positive response, even if it is not really true.
As I researched, I found many contradictions about the church that I can't simply let it get a pass just because of a positive feeling confirming a question. And it has been a bit frustrating try to debate these with members, because it always comes to "you need to have faith and ask god". I just wish I could talk with a member about these issues without being told "stop believing everything they say on the internet" or "You need to look at the scriptures, not material from outside the church if you want a confirmation".
I want to have a confirmation, but a genuine one. One that I can be pretty sure it is from the Holy Ghost, and not wishful thinking from my part. I can't simply change my way of thinking to please everyone that wants me to join the church. Sometimes I feel more pressure to baptized from missionaries and other members than from my GF. (Save for very few times, she doesn't push me to much on getting baptized or doing church activities).
Last year I started a relationship with this girl, who is a member of the church. Of course, because of being raised on the church, it became her dream to marry a member and be sealed in a temple marriage, so here it comes the problem: I'm an atheist, so this dream can't really be fulfilled without I'm start believing in God and get baptized. Since I consider myself an open person, so I asked myself "Why not?" and started attend the church, to see if they can change my mind.
So, for the last six/seven months, I've been attending the church's stakes near my house, my GF's stake and even in other state and country. I also got weekly meeting with Missionaries. Overall, most of members I met were great people and I never felt uncomfortable in meetings. I could see myself living on this lifestyle, save for not drinking coffee, that can be a bit difficult, but not impossible. (Already pulled two weeks without coffee)
The main problem is that I still don't have a response that can confirm everything I'm being taught is true. And I'm not sure about leaving to my feelings alone to confirm that everything is true. I know that if I want everything to be true, I'll get a positive response. And that is my main problem. If I really want something to be true, I'll get a positive response, even if it is not really true.
As I researched, I found many contradictions about the church that I can't simply let it get a pass just because of a positive feeling confirming a question. And it has been a bit frustrating try to debate these with members, because it always comes to "you need to have faith and ask god". I just wish I could talk with a member about these issues without being told "stop believing everything they say on the internet" or "You need to look at the scriptures, not material from outside the church if you want a confirmation".
I want to have a confirmation, but a genuine one. One that I can be pretty sure it is from the Holy Ghost, and not wishful thinking from my part. I can't simply change my way of thinking to please everyone that wants me to join the church. Sometimes I feel more pressure to baptized from missionaries and other members than from my GF. (Save for very few times, she doesn't push me to much on getting baptized or doing church activities).
Brianemone
Member
Brickhunt, just make sure that whatever you do that it is for yourself and not for the relationship. I realise that there might be a temptation to "convert" and play along for a while, but do not do her or yourself the disservice of being anything less tha 100% open and honest.
If you want to get baptized do it in your own time and for yourself. Spirituality isn't something that you need to put a timeframe on so don't rush something that is quite literally life changing. (I assume you know about how intensive being a Mormon is once you are commited to it)
If you want to get baptized do it in your own time and for yourself. Spirituality isn't something that you need to put a timeframe on so don't rush something that is quite literally life changing. (I assume you know about how intensive being a Mormon is once you are commited to it)
Dude, you sound just like me a few years back.
I started having that praying earnestly for an answer stuff back when I was 11-12. All my friends that were moving into priesthood knew and I would pray and pray and came back with nothing because I was just like you. Thinking "If I will it to be answered positively it will be so I have to be careful about that."
Honestly this went on for nearly 20 years. I'd pray and I'd get no answer. I'd study and look for better answers to my questions than "Just have faith." And there were none. I'd always look as my not getting an answer or finding a better answer to my questions as faults of mine. Perhaps i wasn't looking hard enough or perhaps I wasn't holy enough or I wasn't trying enough. After 20 years and a whole bunch of studying/talking to people I realized that the problem wasn't me.
There wasn't a positive affirmation from praying because there wasn't going to be one. There weren't better answers than "Just have faith" because there just isn't a better answer. No there's no deep spiritual reason for the ban against blacks. Yes, Joseph Smith did threaten 14 year old girls with eternal damnation if they didn't marry him, and yes, he sent married women's husbands to missions so he could marry their wives while they were gone, why? Because he wanted to. Yes, they haven't found a single sword or piece of armor in the Americas in the time period given in the BoM. Why? Well you're just gonna have to take it in faith. Honestly, the mormon church would be the easiest church to prove correct of any in the world. A simple plant, animal bone, weapon, or piece of writing to match what was in the Book of Mormon's description and timeline that didn't match archeological expectations without some logical gymnastics would be more than enough. But, there's no smoking gun proving it's true and it's not because people just aren't looking hard enough.
Sure you have apologists out there that like to pretend Tapirs or Deer are interchangable for horses, or that the population of the Nephites/Lamanites was so small that they left no trace (not to mention that Zarahemla would've been around the size of Athens). Or that the book of Abraham is universally praised as well translated. But even when I was a mormon those arguments require some very hefty suspensions of logic/belief.
Sorry man, there's just no better answer than "Just take it on faith." Because that's the only answer that works. You'll have to decide if that's enough for you or not. For me, it ended up not being. For plenty of people that's a perfectly OK answer. I just want to warn you up front, don't think that there's someone out there that has all the answers in a way that would make a skeptic see the light of day. There's just not. You're gonna have to have faith, or not. I've shared this story here but it bears repeating. I had an older member of the church that I felt had a rock solid testimonyof the church and when I doubted I looked to him as an example of faithfulness, when I told him about my issues with the church he said "Oh I have doubts from time to time too." When I asked him what he did when he had those doubts he said he looked at another member of the ward, brother Y who had such a strong testimony. So I knew brother Y, I went and asked him if he ever had doubts and he admitted as such and when I asked him what he did when he had doubts he said that he looked at the example of his mom who had a strong faith in the church. Pretty sure if you could talk to the guy's mom, she would've said she looked at someone else. I totally came to believe that 90% of the membership WANTS to believe, more than actually believe.
A bit more advice. I was in a slightly similar situation as you are with your gf. When I started dating my wife, she knew I was in the church as was she but I told her I was sorta unsure about whether I believed or not, that there was a lot of stuff rumaging around that just didn't make much sense and I was busy trying to put it all together. She said she understood and that she was marrying me and not the church. That was such a wonderful blessing. I know that a temple marriage is part and parcel of a mormon girl's dreams of marriage. But make sure what's important to her if you intend to get serious. Some women are married to the church instead of their mates. Heaven knows, I've seen plenty of women settle for a worse guy because he was mormon than a better guy who wasn't. Also being converted is the easy part. If you intend to be temple worthy it's a huge investment, at least 1 year of time after you baptize, 10% of everything you make, no coffee, smoke, drinks, sex or anything like that. Keep in mind as well you don't know what the future will bring. Who knows, maybe you'll convert and be one of those golden converts that goes way up in the church and is faithful until the end. Or maybe you'll join and your GF will leave. Or maybe you'll join and find that your doubts never went away and you couldn't live with them and end up leaving. I read somewhere recently that the global activity rate is about 30%. That means that statistically speaking there's an almost 3 in 4 chance that you or your GF will stop going. People change. The important thing is your GF should accept you as you are now with no changes.
I started having that praying earnestly for an answer stuff back when I was 11-12. All my friends that were moving into priesthood knew and I would pray and pray and came back with nothing because I was just like you. Thinking "If I will it to be answered positively it will be so I have to be careful about that."
Honestly this went on for nearly 20 years. I'd pray and I'd get no answer. I'd study and look for better answers to my questions than "Just have faith." And there were none. I'd always look as my not getting an answer or finding a better answer to my questions as faults of mine. Perhaps i wasn't looking hard enough or perhaps I wasn't holy enough or I wasn't trying enough. After 20 years and a whole bunch of studying/talking to people I realized that the problem wasn't me.
There wasn't a positive affirmation from praying because there wasn't going to be one. There weren't better answers than "Just have faith" because there just isn't a better answer. No there's no deep spiritual reason for the ban against blacks. Yes, Joseph Smith did threaten 14 year old girls with eternal damnation if they didn't marry him, and yes, he sent married women's husbands to missions so he could marry their wives while they were gone, why? Because he wanted to. Yes, they haven't found a single sword or piece of armor in the Americas in the time period given in the BoM. Why? Well you're just gonna have to take it in faith. Honestly, the mormon church would be the easiest church to prove correct of any in the world. A simple plant, animal bone, weapon, or piece of writing to match what was in the Book of Mormon's description and timeline that didn't match archeological expectations without some logical gymnastics would be more than enough. But, there's no smoking gun proving it's true and it's not because people just aren't looking hard enough.
Sure you have apologists out there that like to pretend Tapirs or Deer are interchangable for horses, or that the population of the Nephites/Lamanites was so small that they left no trace (not to mention that Zarahemla would've been around the size of Athens). Or that the book of Abraham is universally praised as well translated. But even when I was a mormon those arguments require some very hefty suspensions of logic/belief.
Sorry man, there's just no better answer than "Just take it on faith." Because that's the only answer that works. You'll have to decide if that's enough for you or not. For me, it ended up not being. For plenty of people that's a perfectly OK answer. I just want to warn you up front, don't think that there's someone out there that has all the answers in a way that would make a skeptic see the light of day. There's just not. You're gonna have to have faith, or not. I've shared this story here but it bears repeating. I had an older member of the church that I felt had a rock solid testimonyof the church and when I doubted I looked to him as an example of faithfulness, when I told him about my issues with the church he said "Oh I have doubts from time to time too." When I asked him what he did when he had those doubts he said he looked at another member of the ward, brother Y who had such a strong testimony. So I knew brother Y, I went and asked him if he ever had doubts and he admitted as such and when I asked him what he did when he had doubts he said that he looked at the example of his mom who had a strong faith in the church. Pretty sure if you could talk to the guy's mom, she would've said she looked at someone else. I totally came to believe that 90% of the membership WANTS to believe, more than actually believe.
A bit more advice. I was in a slightly similar situation as you are with your gf. When I started dating my wife, she knew I was in the church as was she but I told her I was sorta unsure about whether I believed or not, that there was a lot of stuff rumaging around that just didn't make much sense and I was busy trying to put it all together. She said she understood and that she was marrying me and not the church. That was such a wonderful blessing. I know that a temple marriage is part and parcel of a mormon girl's dreams of marriage. But make sure what's important to her if you intend to get serious. Some women are married to the church instead of their mates. Heaven knows, I've seen plenty of women settle for a worse guy because he was mormon than a better guy who wasn't. Also being converted is the easy part. If you intend to be temple worthy it's a huge investment, at least 1 year of time after you baptize, 10% of everything you make, no coffee, smoke, drinks, sex or anything like that. Keep in mind as well you don't know what the future will bring. Who knows, maybe you'll convert and be one of those golden converts that goes way up in the church and is faithful until the end. Or maybe you'll join and your GF will leave. Or maybe you'll join and find that your doubts never went away and you couldn't live with them and end up leaving. I read somewhere recently that the global activity rate is about 30%. That means that statistically speaking there's an almost 3 in 4 chance that you or your GF will stop going. People change. The important thing is your GF should accept you as you are now with no changes.
Hey, I'm right there with you that Spoilers are crazy out of hand, especially on GAF, but on the other hand somebody in the Persona Community thread posted a picture that spoiled part of P4G's ending. They also spoiled me on a character's gender. The former upset me and the latter did not because the former was something I think everyone should say "Gee I shouldn't spoil the ending to this game that's currently out in stores" and the latter was basically "but everybody KNOWS Aerith dies."
Well, to be fair man, everyone knew that Kanji was a dude.
Brickhunt, I gotta echo the others on this. Don't join for this girl. If you really feel like you believe it, then great. But don't do it because you care for someone else.
I spent over 30 years in the church and I was a pretty firm believer until I recently searched out the facts and the church's true history, and it's not the fairy tale they lead you to believe. Just do your homework beforehand and check out some of the things ronito mentions.
Dig a little deeper before you make your decision, and don't make your decision because someone pressured you to.
I spent over 30 years in the church and I was a pretty firm believer until I recently searched out the facts and the church's true history, and it's not the fairy tale they lead you to believe. Just do your homework beforehand and check out some of the things ronito mentions.
Dig a little deeper before you make your decision, and don't make your decision because someone pressured you to.
I have no idea how I did not know.
If you don't get a definitive, "holy crap I can't deny this" type of answer, do not get baptized. I say this as a fully active member, but the last situation you want to find yourself in is 10 years down the line, inactive and with 2-3 kids and your wife walks in and puts her foot down saying, "either you start living in a way that blesses this home with the power of the priesthood, or it's over."
People want you to get baptized because they want you to be happy, and they genuinely feel like this will make you a happy person. Unless you're sure of your decision and are sure that you can live those promises for the rest of your mortal life, it will do the opposite.
Good luck, whichever way you decide to go. I hope whatever decision you do make that it leads to nothing but increased happiness and peace in your life.
Believe me. When Jeff-DSA and I agree, you need to listen to Jeff.
Here's that article I read that talked about church activity being 30%
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/01/13/new-almanac-offers-look-world-mormon-membership/
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/01/13/new-almanac-offers-look-world-mormon-membership/
While serving in Chile, it as really hard for youth to be active members of the church but still be full participants in their schools and activities. The Catholic church runs a huge portion of the schools down there, and lots of the rites and rituals of the Catholic church are just part of going to school. There's immense pressure for the kids to take part in these things from fellow students, teachers, and administrators. There's basically very little separation between church and state in day to day life, though legally there is.
I imagine it would be similar here in Utah if the LDS church ran a good portion of the public schools. You would have prayers in the classroom, talks about getting baptized at 8, and activities that surrounded students being baptized or getting mission calls.
The church has a hard time changing the culture of a few when traditions are so deeply rooted in the majority and have been for generations.
Another new temple video? Nothing for 20 years and then within a year there's two new ones?
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865594237/LDS-Church-begins-using-another-new-temple-film.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865594237/LDS-Church-begins-using-another-new-temple-film.html
Has anyone seen this new-new one? My parents are temple workers and they thought the old new one was too melodramatic/slow paced. Wonder if this is just a quicker cut, or an entirely new video.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
I'll third this. I can't count how many stories I've seen about how a spouse losing their faith and the marital difficulties that follow...it's tough. It was tough for me dating Mormon girls who wanted me to be their "project," meaning they were trying to reaconvert me or get me back to going to the temple. It sucks. It's hard because the church isn't just some social club where you can decide to go...it's a belief system, it's real to people.
My parents literally think I'm rejecting eternal life with the family. If my wife felt the same way I have no idea how we'd manage. Luckily she's never been Mormon, however that causes other issues because we have completely different backgrounds. Really I think the whole thing is just damaging and needs to end
Purple Cheeto
Member
Date em, dunk em and drop em is a pretty common thing.
If you can't get on board with the church 100%, do NOT get baptized. I was an atheist, who fell for a Mormon from a family of Mormons. My family was LDS when I was growing up, but I wasn't active or a believer. I tried really, really hard to make it work, but in the end I slowly rejected the church to increasing degrees over the years.
It actually started with our marriage in the temple which freaked me out so hard it was the beginning of the end of my faith. Soon I stopped going to classes, then skipping sacrament now and then. I stopped payting tithing in 2008 and refuse to give the church any more of my money.
My wife is still active, but church is a struggle with our kids as they see the gap between us on it. We've found a happy middle - I go to sacrament now and then, and pick up our older daughter after it, as she refuses to go to classes after. It took a few years but church is largely a non-issue now and our 14 year marriage has never been better.
But if my wife were more devout/hardcore, or if we didn't weather some very tense transition periods as I drifted away from the church, it would not have ended up in this place.
And the thing is, I had misgivings all along. But I really, honestly tried to overcome them. One of my brothers told me straight up before I got married, I wasn't going to stick it out if I wasn't a true believer going in. He was right.
If you play along and put off your unease about the church to marry the girl you love, it will bite you in the ass. It might not doom your marriage, but expect it to be a lifelong issue if you go down that road.
Actually, come to think of it, absolutely, it is. I've known plenty of girls that make a project out of a non-mormon guy get him baptized and then dump him.
I'm late to the party, too, but yeah, do not get baptized until you have a genuine confirmation. The missionaries'll push you, but that's just cuz they're sort of pushy by nature. In honesty, speaking as someone who served as a missionary, I really, really wish I had taken the time to listen more to what my investigators told me, and cared more about them and their needs.
So yeah, don't join just for her, or for the Elders. Join only after you get a confirmation for yourself. I would, if I were you, take the chance to tell the Elders that that's what you want: is to be sure and to get that confirmation. Doubt never goes away entirely, but you'll be much happier joining if you're sure its what YOU want, than if you didn't.
My situation was different. I was hardcore. Mormon through and through. Testimony founded on the spirit and personal revelation.
My wife was much more relaxed and less adamant about strict obedience to anything but the word of wisdom really. Her organizational skills, meticulous nature, and ridiculously bubbly demeanor however make her a perfect fit for the mormon social scene.
I swung from it's all true to it's all false faster than you could blink after deconstructing the spirit. My disaffection has actually allowed her to relax quite a bit (our relationship is better than it has ever been) but presenting a false front to family does bother her a bit. She's more honest and open than I am.
My wife was much more relaxed and less adamant about strict obedience to anything but the word of wisdom really. Her organizational skills, meticulous nature, and ridiculously bubbly demeanor however make her a perfect fit for the mormon social scene.
I swung from it's all true to it's all false faster than you could blink after deconstructing the spirit. My disaffection has actually allowed her to relax quite a bit (our relationship is better than it has ever been) but presenting a false front to family does bother her a bit. She's more honest and open than I am.
Laurentius
Member
Yeah, I agree. I also wish I had listened more and really tried to understand better. I did that at first, but that kind of gets squashed out of you after bit of being on the mission.
It doesn't help that the mission program pushes baptisms so hard. There was a huge push during my mission to commit EVERYBODY to baptism at EVERY lesson. First, second, third lessons, doesn't matter. We were literally supposed to ask them to be baptized every lesson.
In fact, during one zone conference one of the AP's told us that we should commit every single person we see to baptism. Random dude on the street, teller at the gas station, our mailman, etc. I ended up being his companion later, and I was nervous that he was going to actually try and enforce that on me. Turns out he wasn't some hardass like I thought he was going to be, and we didn't follow that at all. He even admitted that he got too carried away during that zone conference. Ended up being my favorite companion.
I find it strange that Hinckley was so concerned about retaining converts at the same time moving away from the discussions format to quicker faster mini lessons. Seems to me if you spent more with investigators, sure you'd have less overall baptisms, but the people you'd baptize would be more likely to stay.
Unless the church thinks that the 25-30% retention rate is a given and will always be that way. In which case yeah, baptize more and let the 30% that stay, stay.
Unless the church thinks that the 25-30% retention rate is a given and will always be that way. In which case yeah, baptize more and let the 30% that stay, stay.
Laurentius
Member
Well, I'd say the Preach My Gospel lessons are somewhat better in that they're designed to not be rigid, and to lead to more actual "discussions" then the old "discussions". But in practice it doesn't seem to work out very well -- mostly because 18-21 guys aren't generally any good at teaching. Or listening.
On the other hand, the lessons aren't supposed to go over 30 minutes or something like that. Doesn't really give time to really delve into any actual issues -- generally just enough to regurgitate the info you memorized.
I have no idea what statistics are like, but a 30% activity rate is probably good for any Western religion.
I dunno. I think it's a bit different in the mormon religion. For example, if you go to church once a month as a catholic you're still pretty active that's fairly devout, even if you go once a quarter they'd still consider themselves active catholic.
However, if you're a mormon and you only go to church once a month out of choice? You're a project at best. If you go once a quarter, you're dead to them. The level of activity required to qualify as "active" in the mormon church is vastly different than almost any other church I know. I wish they had stated how they determined "Active" in this study. If that's 30% active by mormon standards, that's pretty damn good. If that's 30% by normal religion standards. That's really bad.
Just saw the girls who do this referred to as a sect-ubus.
I just recently got a new calling. I'm a Teacher's Quorum advisor, which coincides with Varsity Scout coach. We've got summer camp in June, and I'm beginning to realize how big of a sacrifice it is for leaders to do all these campouts, especially the multiple night ones. You use up most of your vacation time each year to take these kids out and hope to reach them on a level that benefits them as they continue to grow and mature. Makes me a lot more appreciative of the leaders I had now that I have seen for myself how you need to juggle your days off to accommodate.
Oh, and I'm also their basketball coach, which starts Saturday. I'm shooting for fun and everybody getting a chance. I hope they understand why and don't whine when certain kids get more time than their skills would normally demand.
Oh, and I'm also their basketball coach, which starts Saturday. I'm shooting for fun and everybody getting a chance. I hope they understand why and don't whine when certain kids get more time than their skills would normally demand.
Not mormon here.
So it just happens that my boss and I(just us two in our department) live in the same ward. Turns out he was made bishop last year. It's been a little awkward. All the phone calls at work, having to leave for funerals and other stuff, He always invites me to ward parties and stuff though he used to do that even before he was bishop. He told me he was not going to try to convert me. In an indirect way I think he still does.
I get to hear some of the ward "stories", some of the things that are going on. Sometimes he likes to explain how things work in the church so I understand his stories. This going to get old pretty quick.
So it just happens that my boss and I(just us two in our department) live in the same ward. Turns out he was made bishop last year. It's been a little awkward. All the phone calls at work, having to leave for funerals and other stuff, He always invites me to ward parties and stuff though he used to do that even before he was bishop. He told me he was not going to try to convert me. In an indirect way I think he still does.
I get to hear some of the ward "stories", some of the things that are going on. Sometimes he likes to explain how things work in the church so I understand his stories. This going to get old pretty quick.
I've had those callings (well except basketball coach, if I had been called as basketball coach I would've known right then and there the church was false).
For us most of the campouts were on the weekends to it wasn't so bad. Depends on the region, my bro-in-law is in Utah and he spends most of his vacation for campouts. My friends in California spend maybe 1 or 2 days and that's it. Personally, I'm STILL shocked that the church has anything to do with the BSA.I think the duty to God award does just as good a job. Don't get why they stay with an outside org.
He's on a spiritual high. Let him enjoy it. And honestly, if something sounds fun, go and do it. I still do trunk or treat and if they invite me to something that sounds fun I do it. I've made it clear to them where my stance is. I view it as a win/win. I get to take the fam out for something fun, they get to learn that there can be good people that have no interest in the church.
Brianemone
Member
The church pitches it's self as the ultimate truth, I don't think it's unfair to make sure you are %100 on board before buying in.
Also, "the part of us that wants to do good"? Getting baptized isn't an act that will benefit anyone, being good and being a part of the church aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not sure if that's what you were pitching but that's how it came across to me.
Because it's the honeymoon period.
If at your honeymoon you have a shadow of a doubt as to whether or not you love your spouse, chances of those doubts coming up and being bigger are fairly high.
Purple Cheeto
Member
The term Scoutmaster's widow doesn't exist for no reason.
Bishop arrested for luring a 17 year old boy. Porn made him do it, I'm sure.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/2...n-bishop-arrested-in-mesa-for-luring-teen-boy
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/2...n-bishop-arrested-in-mesa-for-luring-teen-boy
Laurentius
Member
So this article called "Stop it with the R-Rated Movies Thing" has been making the rounds:
http://thisweekinmormons.com/2014/01/stop-it-with-the-r-rated-movies-thing/
The basic premise is that the church never drew a line in the sand about R-Rated movies, and that you shouldn't base what you watch on ratings given by the MPAA. Basically, the whole "if it's a 'bad' movie, don't see it even if it's just PG-13". This is not a new thing, and I've known plenty of Mormon families that either don't even watch PG-13 movies, or are very selective about what ones they allow.
I honestly don't care if anybody refuses to watch movies based on a rating or content, but I'm forever perplexed by how much moral weight Mormons seem to place on movies in the first place. It's just so odd, especially in contrast to the many actually important moral issues that get very little discussion time.
http://thisweekinmormons.com/2014/01/stop-it-with-the-r-rated-movies-thing/
The basic premise is that the church never drew a line in the sand about R-Rated movies, and that you shouldn't base what you watch on ratings given by the MPAA. Basically, the whole "if it's a 'bad' movie, don't see it even if it's just PG-13". This is not a new thing, and I've known plenty of Mormon families that either don't even watch PG-13 movies, or are very selective about what ones they allow.
I honestly don't care if anybody refuses to watch movies based on a rating or content, but I'm forever perplexed by how much moral weight Mormons seem to place on movies in the first place. It's just so odd, especially in contrast to the many actually important moral issues that get very little discussion time.
I find it a bit disingenuous to say that the church never drew a line on R-Rated movies. General conference was generally filled with admonitions to not watch R-Rated movies and searching general conference stuff for R-Rated and you'll pull up a bunch of talks telling people not to watch R-Rated movies.
I remember Hinckley once saying that he and some of the brethren only watched G-Rated stuff in an interview (even PG was out).
This is why I don't like the NOM stuff. They like to say "Oh no, no one ever said that!" Well, no that's wrong, they did say that. Quite a bit actually.
I remember Hinckley once saying that he and some of the brethren only watched G-Rated stuff in an interview (even PG was out).
This is why I don't like the NOM stuff. They like to say "Oh no, no one ever said that!" Well, no that's wrong, they did say that. Quite a bit actually.
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