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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

exwallst

Member
And I thought WoW was a good business! Assuming rough equivalency with the U.S., that's $2B+ in revenue, tax-free. Surprised the salaries are so low, kudos to them for that.

Do I understand the previous posts correctly, the Mormon president said masturbation is one of the top three worst things a person can do? Where did picking one's nose rank? Do the majority of Mormons really believe that? I know most every religion has some nutty things but, as a moral code, no one really puts eating pork on the same scale as legitimate things. If the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, that doesn't strike me as very evolved spiritual guidance.
 

ronito

Member
PROVO — In Utah County, where Mormon meetinghouses number in the many hundreds, the construction of yet another LDS Church building attracts little attention.

But a sign at the corner of 900 East and 300 North in Provo is drawing double takes — it's announcing a new structure for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that will serve 48 wards.

Say what?

To understand the incredibility of a 48-ward ward building among the LDS faithful, one must understand the typical meetinghouse in Utah generally houses from one to three wards (or congregations), with some larger buildings also accommodating administrative offices for stake leaders, who oversee five to a dozen-plus wards.
Meetinghouses are used by each ward for a three-hour block of worship and instructional meetings on Sundays, with various additional activities, administrative meetings, interviews and other gatherings conducted throughout the week.

And scheduling the overlapping meetings and activities of wards sharing the same building can be challenging.

"When everybody hears '48 wards,' they ask, 'how do you circulate 48 wards in just one building?" said Terry Cano, section manager in the Architecture, Engineering and Construction Division of the LDS Church's Meetinghouse Facilities Department.

It's because the new building is not so much a meetinghouse for regular Sunday worship, but rather a dual-purpose "facility" — one, a site to hold stake conference meetings where upwards of 2,000 can be accommodated at one time; and two, a four-pod configuration to house leadership and clerk offices and interview rooms for four stakes and 48 wards of BYU student and young single adult LDS members.

In some parts of Utah, the LDS Church has built large buildings shared by up to eight student/young single adult wards. The massive meetinghouses are complete with two chapels, a shared large cultural hall, administrative offices for eight wards and fewer but larger classrooms, since there's few if any children's classes and no youth classes to worry about.

But this building is even bigger — in size and in the number of units served.

"It's the very first one of its kind," said Cano, admitting the building plan hasn't been given a design name, unlike most meetinghouse plans. "We don't know if it will ever be built again."

But it could be feasible in similar areas of high LDS student concentrations near a church campus, such as BYU-Idaho or BYU-Hawaii

The new 48-ward facility measures a whopping 53,000 square feet. By comparison, the typical three-ward meetinghouse in Utah is 17,000 square feet, while a stake center may reach 23,000 to 24,000 feet. The Provo Utah Temple's total area is just less than 131,000 feet, but that's spread over three floors, including the basement.

For more than a half-century, BYU student wards have meet in campus buildings for their Sunday meetings, with ward leaders using department offices and professors' offices scattered across campus for stake presidency and ward bishopric meetings and interviews.

Church leaders approached facilities architects with the desire to have a centralized location for a good chunk of the student/young single adult ward leaders.

Original concepts called for a multi-story, multi-chapel, multi-function building for four stakes; the design was eventually scaled back to the current administrative/conference facility.

"It allows all the students to come to one location, rather than going to look for a bishop on one floor (on campus) and a stake president on another," Cano said.

Campus locations will still be used for Sunday meetings. But the new facilities will provide more personal — and personable — accommodations for the leaders in four stakes and a meetinghouse-like atmosphere for stake conferences of those and many more stakes.

The 48-ward facility's chapel can seat 500-plus — that's two to two and a half times the chapel size of a typical meetinghouse.

With chairs set up in the overflow/assembly area, the conference crowd can increase to upwards of 1,600. Another several hundred can watch a stake conference via video broadcast from a secondary assembly room at the far end of the building.

Each of the four stake areas feature a stake president's office, a stake clerk's office, a high council meeting room, 12 bishops offices, six shared clerk offices, a half-dozen interview rooms and several waiting areas.

What the building doesn't have are classrooms and a basketball court/hardwood gymnasium. The large overflow/assembly area can be divided into quarters — each with its own serving area — for simultaneous activities.

Cano said the project is currently out to bid, with construction expected to start next month and the facility to be finished in the summer of 2012, just in time for the start of BYU's fall semester.

48 wards?! That's insane.
 

McLovin

Member
Is the Mormon religion the one where if you live a good life you get your own planet to rule or something like that? Thats pretty bad ass as far as afterlifes go.
 

ronito

Member
exwallst said:
Do I understand the previous posts correctly, the Mormon president said masturbation is one of the top three worst things a person can do? Where did picking one's nose rank? Do the majority of Mormons really believe that? I know most every religion has some nutty things but, as a moral code, no one really puts eating pork on the same scale as legitimate things. If the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, that doesn't strike me as very evolved spiritual guidance.
I think you'd have a hard time finding a mormon that wouldn't agree that sexual sins are second only to murder or denying the church.

Now the question of if they put masturbation in as a sexual sin is less definite. Certainly the past prophet Spencer W. Kimball thought masturbation definitely was in that level. That sorta coasted through to Ezra T. Benson after that the church has done a pretty good dance around it. On one hand they have the writings of prophets and Kimball that take a hugely hard stance on masturbation (Kimball wrote that masturbation would either lead you becoming gay, a rapist, a serial killer, or a pedophile or any combination of those) . And you wont be a member in "good standing" (meaning you can't go to the temple, which in turn means no heaven for you) if you admit to masturbating. But they've stopped kicking people out of church for it. And you'll only incur church discipline against you if you chronically do it.
 
Mormons really do get around. I went to Guatemala recently and the family I stayed with had recently converted to the religion. The missionaries really stick out, white guys walking around in dark slacks, button up white shirt and a tie, even when it is 80+ degrees outside. The natives seem to have gotten used to their presence.

How are the Mormon's sense of humor? For instance, what do they think of their depiction in pop culture? (South Park comes to mind), or are they buffered from it?
 

ronito

Member
well re-reading it, it looks like that 48 ward monster is mainly for stake conferences and bishop offices? Could be the new tabernacle?
 
There is a building in Bountiful, Utah that is used for some of those combined stake conferences that holds two or three stakes at once. Maybe it's something like that and is just able to do 3-4 stake a week?
 

ronito

Member
soldat7 said:
Of course Mormons have a sense of humor. I did find this interesting though: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...musical/2011/04/14/AFiEn1fD_blog.html#WeighIn
I found this to be a particularly poor write up.

He spends half the time telling us "Parody and Satire is ok and we shouldn't squash it." then spends the other half telling us why he's squashing it out of his personal life. I especially like where he talks about "strength of character" to turn the other cheek. But I'd say it takes far more "strength of character" to see what others think about you even if in parody.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
People with more fundamentalist beliefs typically have a harder time understanding satire, and you see this pretty often with staunch mormons.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
johnsenclan said:
There is a building in Bountiful, Utah that is used for some of those combined stake conferences that holds two or three stakes at once. Maybe it's something like that and is just able to do 3-4 stake a week?

The combined 3-4 stakes thing is regional conference. It's once a year. They also hold stake conferences in there. It's a nice building.
 

ronito

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
The combined 3-4 stakes thing is regional conference. It's once a year. They also hold stake conferences in there. It's a nice building.
Does every region do a regional conference? We didn't do it in Washington or California or if we did it wasn't an every member thing. Certainly heard of it but never attended.
 

ronito

Member
The end of tracting?
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/51672010-180/tracting-church-lds-mormon.html.csp

A report that the LDS Church was discontinuing its long-standing tradition of sending missionaries from door-to-door “tracting” — cold calling on people to share the Mormon message — has percolated across the Mormon blogging world.

Rusty Clifton recently heralded the purported decision online, saying that it was starting in the United States.

“If true, it wouldn’t surprise me,” Clifton wrote. “I mean, it’s always been far, far down the list of effective ways of finding people to teach and I imagine it’s only gotten worse over time. Missionaries hate doing it and people hate it being done to them. It’s embarrassing, awkward and dreaded. But the worst part about it? The baptisms that have come from it. Seriously. Those very, very, very few successes have led to more bad missionary work, in terms of quantity, than any bad mission president or program.”

Several commenters defended tracting, including Tom O., who wrote, “I’m grateful for tracting….it’s how my family met the missionaries and was brought into the [LDS] Church, which we had never heard of prior to that first contact.”

Others chimed in with Clifton, adding their own criticisms of tracting, which derives from the early Mormon practice of handing out “tracts,” or pamphlets describing LDS beliefs.

“Through knocking on doors [in the Bible Belt], I’ve met hookers, bikers, a Wiccan, a published anti-Mormon authority, night shift girls looking for company, a moonshiner and an army private who flushed his contraband because he thought we were CID,” wrote David T. “Unfortunately, I don’t think many seeds were planted during those encounters.”

David did opine that the end of tracting might be regional, as the missionaries in his area were still doing it and felt that it
wouldn’t end anytime soon because “it works well in the Spanish-speaking and Korean (and other) communities.”

Well, David is partially correct. Tracting is not ending at all.

“There are no proposals before [LDS] Church leaders to eliminate tracting,” church spokesman Michael Purdy told the Salt Lake Tribune this week.

It was obviously a so-called “faith-promoting rumor” along the lines of the repeated claim that the LDS Church is about to do away with Sunday school, or reduce the time of worship services from a three-hour to two-hour block.

Or maybe, it was just wishful thinking by those who didn’t enjoy that traditional element of Mormon missionary work.
it wouldn't the first time I've heard of it and lately the rumors have been more prevelant. remember talking to a mission pres who predicted tracting would be gone in 10 years because its so inefficient. I personally think its not effective at all but I dont see it ever going away
 

ronito

Member
Today's bit of irony brought to you from Washington.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/to...ng-target-of-anti/s4EvOFbd3UmFMIHejnUqmA.cspx

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – Michael Young is now the target of vicious anti-Mormon slurs in the state of Washington.

The outgoing University of Utah president will soon take the same job at the University of Washington.


But in that state's biggest newspaper, Young's LDS religion has sparked a fierce debate among readers.

Let's be clear about this.

A lot of people in Washington are saying a lot of nice things about Michael Young.

But too many are also saying some shameful things about his Mormon religion.

Even before Young's official appointment, negative comments started appearing in the Seattle Times.

One reader wrote,

"Any leader who professes a strong belief in religious hocus-pocus...are not fit to be leaders."

Another thinks that,

"...Jon Krakauer's book ‘Under the Banner of Heaven’ should be required reading for incoming students."

This is in stark contrast to what Young told ABC 4's Brent Hunsaker Monday.

ABC 4: "How do you think you're going to be received up there?”

Young: “Well, I hope warmly."

But one Seattle Times reader focused in on the LDS Church and polygamy,

"...the Mormon beliefs and practices concerning their daughters and wives are as bigoted as it gets."

Others focused on the LDS Church's relationship with gays and blacks,

“All Mormons support bigotry. Michael Young is a Mormon. So, Michael Young supports bigotry."

However, Michael Young is no dummy and knows what he has to do to win over Washington,

"You have to prove yourself and I think that's probably true everyday almost anywhere you are and
I don't think that will be that different."

Now, many Washington readers rallied to Young's and the LDS Church's defense.

One wrote simply, "He obviously is the best man for the job. I have many Mormon friends and am blessed to do so."
 

Teflar

Member
ronito said:
a mission pres who predicted tracting would be gone in 10 years because its so inefficient. I personally think its not effective at all but I dont see it ever going away

LDS is still pretty young. Give it time, you'll have reform and orthodox and they can fight over the need for tracting ;)
 

Barrett2

Member
Tracting should go away. It's a horrible waste of time and energy, and practically nothing productive comes of it.

Honestly, so much missionary work is spent on unproductive stuff simply out of a respect for tradition / romantic notions of what it is to be a missionary.
 
lawblob said:
Tracting should go away. It's a horrible waste of time and energy, and practically nothing productive comes of it.

Honestly, so much missionary work is spent on unproductive stuff simply out of a respect for tradition / romantic notions of what it is to be a missionary.
My wife was nearly killed in a car accident with a couple of missionaries. They were in the wrong lane going around a curve. Her steering wheel shattered both her jaws, requiring multiple surgeries and thousands of stitches. While she lay there, almost bleeding to death, they reached in through the bloody, broken windshield and lay hands on her and gibbered in prayers. Her small-town incompetent attorney was frightened of your big bad lawyers, which is why we don't own substantial property in Utah. It gave me some modicum of pleasure to slam my door in their faces when they ignorantly came calling. I will miss that.
 

ronito

Member
So, this wont matter to believing mormons and it wont matter to non-mormons but John Delhin has announced he's left the church.

The guy was the main figure in the "Yeah the church might not be true but stay anyway." movement culminating in the "stay lds" website.

http://www.staylds.com/

And also the mormon stories podcast

http://mormonstories.org/

He was very influential in the mormon "bloggernacle" (blogosphere) and a bastion for people that have a crisis of faith and decide to stay in the church.

The fact that he's left the church is not only surprising but puts a huge damper on the "stay lds anyway" kind of movement.

I'm biased as I made the decision to leave but while a lot of people are worried about what this will do to the "stay anyway" idea I think it's overall a good things for both the church and the ones in a crisis of faith. The church doesn't need people that believe halfway or stay because of traditional/familial reasons despite their doubts. These people will only speak about their doubts to others and will start others down the path. The church needs people that really believe, not just play at it. As for those in a crisis of faith the "stay anyway" thing to me was something that could not ulitmately be sustained. It's not like being catholic or baptist. The LDS church requires a ton of time and effort. Eventually you find yourself trying to live up to a standard you not only can't attain but don't believe. And you'll wonder why you bother.

Like I said most will not care, but it's pretty big news.
 

diehard

Fleer
adamsappel said:
My wife was nearly killed in a car accident with a couple of missionaries. They were in the wrong lane going around a curve. Her steering wheel shattered both her jaws, requiring multiple surgeries and thousands of stitches. While she lay there, almost bleeding to death, they reached in through the bloody, broken windshield and lay hands on her and gibbered in prayers. Her small-town incompetent attorney was frightened of your big bad lawyers, which is why we don't own substantial property in Utah. It gave me some modicum of pleasure to slam my door in their faces when they ignorantly came calling. I will miss that.
So when 2 individuals make a stupid mistake and your wife gets injured, they gave her a blessing? Because of this you wanted to sue the church? And now you take pleasure in slamming the door in front of said religious people when they come do your door?

Yes, clearly they are the ignorant ones, and clearly they are classless people.
 
dIEHARD said:
So when 2 individuals make a stupid mistake and your wife gets injured, they gave her a blessing? Because of this you wanted to sue the church? And now you take pleasure in slamming the door in front of said religious people when they come do your door?

Yes, clearly they are the ignorant ones, and clearly they are classless people.
Stupid mistake? A stupid mistake is locking your keys in your car. THEY WERE DRIVING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD! Why wouldn't you sue someone who nearly killed you through negligent driving? Why, when your jaws have been shattered through your skin and blood is pouring through the wounds, would you want them laying hands on you and praying RATHER THAN GOING FOR HELP? The Mormon church's policy and method of proselytizing nearly killed my wife, don't expect me to greet them with hugs and kisses. (By the way, I was using "ignorant" as "unaware.")
 

bluemax

Banned
SUPREME1 said:
I've mentioned this before:


A childhood friend of mine who married into the Mormon culture/religion invited me to join their summer basketball league several years back. The people were as nice as can be, probably the ideal people you'd want to be your neighbor (religion aside).

Well, it took me several games to really get my vulgar language under control. For instance: after a missed gimme shot, I'd shout off "FUCK!" or somethign similar, as if I was at the park with a bunch of street dudes. I'd get looks of shock, but nobody said anything or tried to correct me. And I appreciate that. My friend would look at me though and shake his head laughing. He knew I wasn't doing it on purpose and so it was cool with him.

Wait what? This doesn't sound like any LDS basketball league I ever participated in. When I used to play in them, foul language and threats of violence were practically commonplace. It's practically a universal Mormon joke about how the priesthood goes out the door once the games tip off.

ronito said:
Instigator: Only one of my mormon friends watched starship troopers. And I know he found it "cool". BTW, you still have the best avatars on GAF.


I find my parents getting less and less "mormony" as time passes actually. As well as my wife's parents.

My parents I think mainly because they saw the church as a way to raise their kids. Now that we're all out of the house and made our own lives I think they're now on auto-pilot.

As for my wife's parents. They stumbled onto this whole "new-age" thing that's going around in Utah called "Impact" so they're into crystals and all this crazy stuff on top of still being sorta mormon.

My parents are so atypically Mormon. But I guess this is to be expected of people who somehow managed to get married in the temple despite my mom being pregnant at the time.

ronito said:
So, this wont matter to believing mormons and it wont matter to non-mormons but John Delhin has announced he's left the church.

The guy was the main figure in the "Yeah the church might not be true but stay anyway." movement culminating in the "stay lds" website.

http://www.staylds.com/

And also the mormon stories podcast

http://mormonstories.org/

He was very influential in the mormon "bloggernacle" (blogosphere) and a bastion for people that have a crisis of faith and decide to stay in the church.

The fact that he's left the church is not only surprising but puts a huge damper on the "stay lds anyway" kind of movement.

I'm biased as I made the decision to leave but while a lot of people are worried about what this will do to the "stay anyway" idea I think it's overall a good things for both the church and the ones in a crisis of faith. The church doesn't need people that believe halfway or stay because of traditional/familial reasons despite their doubts. These people will only speak about their doubts to others and will start others down the path. The church needs people that really believe, not just play at it. As for those in a crisis of faith the "stay anyway" thing to me was something that could not ulitmately be sustained. It's not like being catholic or baptist. The LDS church requires a ton of time and effort. Eventually you find yourself trying to live up to a standard you not only can't attain but don't believe. And you'll wonder why you bother.

Like I said most will not care, but it's pretty big news.

I've never heard of this guy before. As someone who stopped believing in the church but kept going for a short while its totally unsustainable. There's just no way to regularly participate in LDS services without being really into it/committed for a long time. But I guess people fake their way through other stuff, so eh.
 
ronito said:
So, this wont matter to believing mormons and it wont matter to non-mormons but John Delhin has announced he's left the church.

The guy was the main figure in the "Yeah the church might not be true but stay anyway." movement culminating in the "stay lds" website.

http://www.staylds.com/

And also the mormon stories podcast

http://mormonstories.org/

He was very influential in the mormon "bloggernacle" (blogosphere) and a bastion for people that have a crisis of faith and decide to stay in the church.

The fact that he's left the church is not only surprising but puts a huge damper on the "stay lds anyway" kind of movement.

I'm biased as I made the decision to leave but while a lot of people are worried about what this will do to the "stay anyway" idea I think it's overall a good things for both the church and the ones in a crisis of faith. The church doesn't need people that believe halfway or stay because of traditional/familial reasons despite their doubts. These people will only speak about their doubts to others and will start others down the path. The church needs people that really believe, not just play at it. As for those in a crisis of faith the "stay anyway" thing to me was something that could not ulitmately be sustained. It's not like being catholic or baptist. The LDS church requires a ton of time and effort. Eventually you find yourself trying to live up to a standard you not only can't attain but don't believe. And you'll wonder why you bother.

Like I said most will not care, but it's pretty big news.
He always seemed anti-LDS most of the time anyway when he said he tried to keep things balanced. Not really surprised.
 

ronito

Member
Shalashaska said:
He always seemed anti-LDS most of the time anyway when he said he tried to keep things balanced. Not really surprised.
Yeah he was. But I was surprised because he kept that facade going for YEARS. Poor guy mormons didn't like him because they felt he was anti. Non mormons didn't like him because they felt he was being disingenuous. He caught it from both sides.
I was in that camp for a while trying to not believe but still going to church and try to "change" the church. That was a waste of time for both me and the church. Although I still keep up with mormon news and stuff like that. It's how I was raised. I find it interesting.
 

ronito

Member
Orson Scott Card did another write up for Mormontimes.

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/20739/Hiding-from-archaeologists
Archaeology began with a strong bias toward exploring the lives of the ruling class in ancient civilizations. Archaeologists are aware of this bias and try to compensate for it and work around it.

Many of them continue to assume, however, that the evolution of a society from "chiefdoms" to "states" involves the development of an elite social class. The site at Çatalhöyük, in Turkey, one of the earliest cities ever found, has proven to be a challenge precisely because there are no elite markers. The whole site is like one enormous apartment building, with the houses right up against each other and doors only in the roofs. The houses are all modest, a pattern that is also seen in some early sites on the Pacific coast of South America.

Because elite markers eventually developed much later, it is tempting to speculate that these societies may have been communal or otherwise egalitarian. I certainly had no trouble fitting a version of the law of consecration into what I learned about Çatalhöyük in a class I recently took from the Great Courses.

But that's just guessing — fun but not significant. Still, the Mormon perspective does help us break out of assumptions that are common to most people who don't have the advantage of knowing about other ways to organize a prosperous high-population society.

When there are no markers of high status, archaeologists find it hard to recognize a social pattern that we would call a "state," if only because we know of no historical examples of an organized state that doesn't have people of high rank who clearly distinguish themselves from common people in their dress, housing, property or burial.

How can you have a state without a ruling class?

My mind immediately jumped to Mormon life today. While we partake of all the social status markers of the societies we live in, the fact is that within our highly organized LDS life we have almost no status markers.

That's because we rotate our leadership positions. How could you distinguish a bishop from a Sunday School teacher or a clerk, a Relief Society president from a camp counselor or Primary teacher, if you didn't have something written down?

The Book of Mormon, as a historical record, may very well be showing us a society that would be almost unrecognizable to archaeologists. The dates of the Book of Mormon are very clear, and with the recently acquired ability to translate Maya writings, we have solid information about some aspects of the history of Maya cities contemporaneous with portions of the Book of Mormon.

Before those earliest Maya writings, though, a pivotal event took place: the merger of the people of Nephi with the people of Zarahemla. Amaleki, writing in the book of Omni, tells us that Mosiah I (father of Benjamin) was warned by God to flee from the land of Nephi.

Led by the Lord, the Nephites came upon the people of Zarahemla, who claimed Israelite ancestry, though they had lost their language. Then something truly astonishing happened:

The people of Zarahemla, or Mulekites, though they outnumbered the wandering Nephites, accepted them so completely that they learned the Nephite language and accepted the Nephite king, Mosiah I, in place of their own king, Zarahemla (Omni 12-19).

The two peoples retained their separate identities for at least two generations: Under Mosiah II, "all the people of Nephi were assembled together, and also all the people of Zarahemla, and they were gathered together in two bodies" (Mosiah 25:4). This separation may be at the root of many other events in later years. Who were the King-men, for instance, if not (perhaps) descendants of the old ruling family or ruling class of the Mulekites? After all, the Mulekites had previously been torn by "many wars and serious contentions" (Omni 17), and many later Nephite problems may have had their origins in Mulekite history.

Why did the majority Mulekites learn Nephite language and accept the Nephite king?

It seems that the people of Zarahemla behaved very much like what the archaeology and history of Mayan cities show us: frequent war between groups, with occasional civil wars and coups within the ruling class.

The rich and powerful were clearly marked in Mayan culture, and perhaps in Mulekite culture also. Maybe this is why King Benjamin felt it so important to address his people — Nephite and Mulekite alike — and point out to them that he was just like them (Mosiah 2:10-11).

He reminds them that he has "not sought gold nor silver nor any manner of riches of you" (Mosiah 2:12) — no elite markers for the king, and no tax structure!

He has not imprisoned anyone, or allowed slavery to exist; in fact, as he catalogues the things he has not done, he is also listing things that were common in Maya city-states, and probably in Mulekite culture before the coming of the Nephites.

When Benjamin reminds them that he has labored with his own hands, instead of taxing them, he may be telling us exactly why the Mulekite people embraced Nephite leadership!

Then, as part of the gospel of salvation, King Benjamin lays out a set of social rules based on providing for and sharing with others (Mosiah 4:16-19, 23-26).

Through the rest of the Book of Mormon, we see a constant struggle against the development of elites. When the people become wicked in their prosperity, it almost always takes the form of the rich persecuting the poor. One has only to think of money-loving Ammonihah and the elitist Zoramites to get the point — these cultures were distinct from the Nephite people who were actually living the gospel, but they no doubt would look perfectly ordinary to archaeologists of today.

When the gospel is lived in its perfection, elites disappear entirely (4 Nephi 3, 16-17). The end of the golden age is marked by the reestablishment of distinctions between the rich and poor (4 Nephi 24-26). In other words, when Nephites are at their best, they would virtually disappear as a state from the archaeological record.

Add to that the fact that "none other people knoweth our language" (Mormon 9:34), which may refer only to the language in which they kept their records, and we might find that Nephite culture does not show up in any distinctive way to archaeologists. Nephite culture overlaps with Mayan history only in the era right before Mormon's own time, after the collapse of the egalitarian golden age that began with the coming of Christ. At that time, the great city of Teotihuacan in Mexico ("the land northward"?) imposed its power over one of the greatest Mayan cities of the time, deposing a king and replacing him with a puppet.

At that time, the "Nephites" (remember that this term no longer had its pre-Christ meaning) had close connections in the land northward; it was in the land northward that Ammaron had hidden the ancient records that he entrusted to Mormon.

Might it not be possible that, like the ancient Israelites in Egypt during the Hyksos era, the Nephites had become closely tied with a foreign ruling class?

When Mayan kings threw off the rule of Teotihuacan and drove them back into the "land northward," might that not be a part of what we're seeing in the life of Mormon?

The Nephites might have taken refuge in the land northward, where they had allies; but by the time they tried to retake their southern homeland, Teotihuacan might have been so reduced in power that the Nephites had only themselves to rely upon as they were ground up under the conquering king Jacob of the Lamanites.

Once the Nephites ceased to exist as a nation, their memory would be expunged from Mayan history as if they had never existed — there are precedents.

The politics of the various Lamanite cities would have been meaningless to Mormon; he was telling the history of the Nephites and their relationship with God. My point is merely that it is easy to fit known Nephite history into Maya history during the few centuries when they overlap.

A society whose ideal was to keep even their kings from being distinguished by wealth, and which then proceeded to replace kings with ordinary citizens elected to judgeships, is one that is not going to show up very easily in the archaeological record. Particularly if they otherwise looked like everybody else — using the same tools, agriculture, and building patterns.

And yet it is precisely that cultural difference that Mormon and Moroni stress for our benefit in their abridgment. "Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing," says Moroni (Mormon 8:35), and this may be the reason Mormon made sure we were told again and again how destructive it is when the rich become puffed up in their pride.
So his argument is the reason that archeologists haven't found much to verify mormon claims is because they were living the gospel and as such didn't have elites. Not sure if I buy any of that. I mean sure you need jars and tools whether you're rich or poor. Further you don't get to the level of sophistication detailed in the book of mormon without leaving artifacts elites or no.
 

ronito

Member
Interesting write up about the concept of "Heavenly Mother" in the LDS church

http://www.religiondispatches.org/d...venly_mother_making_a_comeback_in_mormonism_/
It’s a little-known fact: according to Mormon tradition, God is not an old man but rather a male-female couple: a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. Yet for most of the twentieth century you could go a month of Sundays in most Mormon congregations without hearing Heavenly Mother so much as mentioned—a taboo that may finally be waning.

The Mormon doctrine of a Heavenly Mother was articulated in 1845 by the Mormon author and thinker Eliza R. Snow, in the lyrics to a hymn:

In the heavens are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I’ve a mother there.

During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, at the height of Mormon speculative theology, Heavenly Mother was referenced frequently by both male and female LDS Church leaders. Since that time, an agglomeration of folk tradition and anti-feminist retrenchment made talking about Mother in Heaven virtually taboo. Growing up, I heard various unsatisfying explanations for the absence of Heavenly Mother from Mormon discourse, including the canard that Heavenly Father didn’t want us to talk about Her lest someone sully Her name.

In the early 1990s, Mormon feminists challenged the taboo with an outpouring of creative and theological works dedicated to Heavenly Mother. In 1991, LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley responded to the heightened visibility of Heavenly Mother by cautioning Church members against praying to Her. President Hinckley’s cautionary address, along with excommunications and firings of prominent Mormon feminists, renewed the perception among mainstream conservative Mormons that Heavenly Mother should not be talked about. In 1996, Brigham Young University Professor Gail Houston was fired for publicly describing her personal relationship with her Mother in Heaven, including her use of “meditation” and “visualization” to deepen that relationship. Houston’s case brought BYU under censure from the American Association of University Professors.

But new evidence suggests that the taboo might finally be easing. Research funded by the BYU Women’s Research Institute and published this year in the journal BYU Studies reviewed more than 600 references to Heavenly Mother in Mormon discourse since 1844. ”Most Mormons believe that discourse about Heavenly Mother is forbidden or inappropriate,” write study authors David Paulson and Martin Pulido, a misperception the authors soundly dispel by demonstrating that it has no basis in Mormon history or doctrine.

LDS women’s advocacy groups are also making notable efforts to heighten awareness of the female divine, and some Mormons are reporting an uptick in Mother-in-Heaven references over the pulpit last weekend—it being Mother’s Day, and all.

Is Heavenly Mother making a comeback in Mormonism? Here’s hoping.
I keep hearing from women authors/bloggers (like this one) that Heavenly mother is getting more and more accepted. But I really don't think so. You can still be excommunicated for praying to her or teaching about her. To me it's just hopeful conjecture to think that the church is getting more accepting about a "Heavenly Mother". Perhaps that's just me.
 
Just completed the Krakaeur book 'Banner Under Heaven'. For those of you who are still LDS what is your take on the book? Like others have said to me the LDS is one of if not the most fascinating of the religions. Truly the first world religion since Islam and the only one that was born in the U.S. (Scientology doesn't count).
 
Just finished listening to the Book Of Mormon Broadway play and loved it!

this is coming from a member, most members will ignore it or freak but they need a tougher skin.
 

ronito

Member
LovingSteam said:
Just completed the Krakaeur book 'Banner Under Heaven'. For those of you who are still LDS what is your take on the book? Like others have said to me the LDS is one of if not the most fascinating of the religions. Truly the first world religion since Islam and the only one that was born in the U.S. (Scientology doesn't count).
It's been largely deemed as an "Anti-Mormon" book. So a huge majority of members will not even touch it.

JBP: I really need to see it. I heard someone say how the Book of Mormon musical was a sign of times because it was persecuting the church.
 
ronito said:
It's been largely deemed as an "Anti-Mormon" book. So a huge majority of members will not even touch it.

JBP: I really need to see it. I heard someone say how the Book of Mormon musical was a sign of times because it was persecuting the church.

everything is the sign of the times for most baby boomer LDS faithfull.. get over themselves!

its not persecuting the church, it has a good message, sure it pokes fun of the goofiness of our religion but at least they got it all right.
 

mrpoopy

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I remember just being shell-shocked. My mom was there and told me in the car after that she was proud of me for not sprinting out of the room halfway through. (She was active, but was aware of the absurdity of it.) I refused to do the gestures or chants, just stood there like a deer in headlights.

And yeah, the thought that I had joined a cult of some sort hit my mind. What I really thought was, "So THIS is why they keep all this so secret." The clothing! The old dude touching me with a wet finger when I'm naked and terrified! The weird videos.

I honestly think that experience traumatized me. I get rattled just thinking about it.

??????????
 

Barrett2

Member
ronito said:
Orson Scott Card did another write up for Mormontimes.

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/20739/Hiding-from-archaeologists

So his argument is the reason that archeologists haven't found much to verify mormon claims is because they were living the gospel and as such didn't have elites. Not sure if I buy any of that. I mean sure you need jars and tools whether you're rich or poor. Further you don't get to the level of sophistication detailed in the book of mormon without leaving artifacts elites or no.


That's good and all, Orson, except for a few things: (i) Brigham Young said that at least some of the big battles / events of the BOM took place in upstate NY, where nothing has been discovered. (ii) Not a single shred of evidence for the 'Reformed Egyptian' language has ever been discovered, and (iii) didn't DNA-related work long ago prove that none of the Native American / Latin American peoples have any Semitic DNA markers in their blood?

I don't know. Obviously I am an atheist and very reductionist with this stuff, but I always find it so bizarre when LDS people will perform mental gymnastics to go to such strained lengths to reinforce their beliefs, but in order to do that have to simply ignore the 100 much simpler and more damning pieces of historical evidence that should be addressed before we delve into "elites" and cultural markers of Nephite cultures...blah blah blah...
 

ronito

Member
Fascinating write up on By Common Consent on the leadership of the church

http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/06/20/general-authority-stats/
At the recent Richard Bushman symposium (June 18, 2010) in honor of his 80th birthday, I noted that Armand Mauss was going to speak to “Rethinking Retrenchment: Course Corrections in the Ongoing Campaign for Respectability.” I was planning to be there for his talk, but arrived late. But before that, I had decided to read through his 1994 book “The Angel and the Beehive” since the title of his talk is related to issues discussed in the book. While looking at some the analysis in the book related to General Authorities of the church, I became curious about certain details regarding the current group of GAs – GOs (General Authorities, General Officers (Aux.)).

So on the Friday evening prior to his talk, I compiled a few stats just to see how things may have changed, or not. In any case, I thought some of you might be interested in such things, so here you go. (Data taken from church provided material.)

At first I was mainly interested in education and profession data, but collected a bit more than that.

First, there are 128 persons represented in the “survey.” These include the First Pres., Q12, Prescy of 70, 1st Quorum of 70, 2nd Q of 70, Presiding Bishopric, Primary Prescy, Relief Soc. Prescy, Young Women Prescy, Sunday School Prescy, Young Men Prescy.

Among GAs, the youngest group on average was the 1st Q of 70 at ~59 (not counting prescy of 70). The prescy of the 70 averaged a little higher at ~62. The 2nd Q of 70 was fractionally older than the prescy of 70 (about 6 months). On average the Presiding Bishopric came in at a surprising (to me) ~73. Apparently they don’t get the boot at 70. The Q12 was ~76 and the First Pres. mean age was ~78.

Youngest GA: 46. Oldest: 89.
I should note that I did not consider birthdays, so some ages may be a year off. No age data was readily available for the GOs.

Now for some of what I had originally wanted to know: education.

Only 101 people indicated a higher education field of study, so the remaining 27 may have a college degree of some sort but either did not indicate that or simply did not provide information on field of study. Most every “respondent” did indicate some form of college whether they finished or not.[1]

Terminal Degree Field (out of 101 respondents)

Business (includes finance, etc.): 54
Law: 23
Medicine: 9
Accounting: 8
Education (I mean degrees like Ed.D): 7


There was a scattering of other degrees like international relations, English, Phys Ed, Sport science, a couple of engineers, etc.

There was one who had a degree in the humanities (Jeff Holland -wrote a dissertation on Mark Twain and Religion or something – it was pretty good as I recall).

There were 7 Ph.Ds, 4 of these in business, the other 3 were non science degrees, one in “instructional psychology” which is probably education but I have no idea what it means.

There was a dentist.

Out of the 101 respondents, 19 had MBAs. These were from a variety of schools.

Among GAs, last place of employment: 26 worked for the church, 16 of those in CES.

A large proportion of GAs were in some field of business before beginning service, if one counts law firms, something well over 70%.


So what did this mean re Mauss’ data from his 1994 book? It is not clear that the post Benson years have really pushed back against the “Clark men” who ran the church from the 40s until the mid 90s except in certain ways. One of these is a distinct relaxation over early Mormonism’s history. Another is the new church generated publicity. Taxi-hats indeed!

Conclusion: if you are bucking for GA, head for business school![2] Seriously, this is the same trend noted by Mauss. As he points out, science was a represented field among GAs until mid-20th century when it dropped out of sight as retrenchment was starting to take hold. Church expansion meant increased challenges in finance and administrative pressures.

I predict, based on the data, that we are unlikely to see theological fun from Salt Lake. While the pendulum may be swinging back from “retrenchment” in some respects, it seems unlikely that we are going to see church leaders drawn from disciplines of basic science or history, etc. You guys, don’t count on that office suite at 47 East. (grin) There is not going to be any engagement with, well, thorny stuff from religious studies and so on. (See Mauss pp. 81ff.)

Really interesting. Sorta drives home the disconnect I've been talking about between the leadership of the church and the young membership. Never trust what an octogenarian has to say about sex, was one of the better bits of advice I've gotten.

Also only one fine arts major in all of that. I remember when there were the openings for the two latest apostles my mom (a staunch mormon) said, "I don't know who the next apostles are going to be, but I do know they will be some rich white guy that's a rich business man or lawyer."

The lack of hard science majors is also troubling.

Further given the old age of the vast majority, no wonder change is so slow to come to the LDS church. Especially when you think that Joseph Smith was prophet in his late twenties/early thirties.

some interesting comments from BCC:
Thanks for this information. Keeping in mind that both Jesus and Joseph were the Lord’s choice in their thirties I think aged leadership is the single largest problem the church faces. Seniority succession without term limits insures that only the oldest generations are represented at the top.
If we look at where the church spends its resources, it seems increasingly clear to me that theology is simply not a priority. Most of the energy is spent on practical jobs like helping families or youth programs. It’s unclear to me whether the leadership has pushed this trend or reflects it. Probably both.

I also think that members of certain professions (generally the most time-sucking ones) get chosen for leadership roles at the ward level and thus get put on a “leadership” track.
Interesting, this is a marked contrast to some other similarly-structured religious institutions, like the Catholic Church, where the current pope publishes complex theological exegesis, both before and after he became pope. To be a Catholic priest, you have to attend seminary, where you study all the skills one supposedly needs to be a priest – giving a homily, confession, saying mass, and of course, theology.
 
Seeing how this thread not only informs people about mormonism, but definitely paints it in a less flattering light... Is there a special kind of Mormom hell for giving the brutal truth non-Mormons are not supposed to know, Ronito?
 

ronito

Member
Instigator said:
Seeing how this thread not only informs people about mormonism, but definitely paints it in a less flattering light... Is there a special kind of Mormom hell for giving the brutal truth non-Mormons are not supposed to know, Ronito?
what's less than flattering?

edit: nvm
 
ronito said:
Interesting write up about the concept of "Heavenly Mother" in the LDS church

http://www.religiondispatches.org/d...venly_mother_making_a_comeback_in_mormonism_/

I keep hearing from women authors/bloggers (like this one) that Heavenly mother is getting more and more accepted. But I really don't think so. You can still be excommunicated for praying to her or teaching about her. To me it's just hopeful conjecture to think that the church is getting more accepting about a "Heavenly Mother". Perhaps that's just me.

I've taught and been taught about a heavenly mother for a long time, you won't get excommunicated. It's commanded that we pray to God the Father and not her, which is why we don't pray to a heavenly mother. It only makes sense that if God was once like we are now that he too would have a wife that is his eternal companion. It's common knowledge in the church.

ronito said:
And yes, there's a special hell for me. The worst sin you can do is to leave the church.

And no. The worst sin is denying the divinity and power of Christ after receiving perfect knowledge of who he is and what he has bestowed to you, which is pretty much impossible to do unless you're a prophet.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
The Heavenly Mother thing is in the Hymn book, for crying out loud. You don't pray to her, just like you don't pray to Jesus, The Holy Ghost, prophets, or deceased family members. You pray to the Father only.
 

ronito

Member
bluerei said:
And no. The worst sin is denying the divinity and power of Christ after receiving perfect knowledge of who he is and what he has bestowed to you, which is pretty much impossible to do unless you're a prophet.
Well, to be fair I should've qualified.

There was the blood oath in the temple. That's mainly what I was getting it. I haven't shown anyone what happens but if I did that's pretty damn bad. Also Brigham Young once said that anyone that left the church was worse than a murderer. Of course it was Brigham Young and he's said a bunch of crazy stuff.

But technically, you're right. Just leaving the church isn't that bad, so long as you don't take BY's word for it. I apologize.
 

ronito

Member
bluerei said:
I've taught and been taught about a heavenly mother for a long time, you won't get excommunicated. It's commanded that we pray to God the Father and not her, which is why we don't pray to a heavenly mother. It only makes sense that if God was once like we are now that he too would have a wife that is his eternal companion. It's common knowledge in the church.
Now this really interests me.

I've had friends that have gotten in trouble (as in meeting with Stake Presidency) over teaching about a heavenly mother "to excess"

What exactly have you taught about a Heavenly Mother? I've certainly heard there is one. Which always bugged me because if polygamy was a requirement for celestial-ness earlier in the church doesn't that mean that we'd have Heavenly Mothers?

The whole idea never really "jived" for me. Yeah I get it, if we have a father we have a mother. But, then how does that work with the original church doctrine and all that? If you only take modern doctrine then it all works out, but original it's a little more difficult.
 
Instigator said:
Here's a tricky question. I know Mormons don't usually watch R-rated stuff, but in case some are more liberal on this issue, did they find the Port Joe Smith (and its aftermath) reference funny or cute in Starship Troopers?

StarshipTroopers_03.png

I was in the theater in Provo watching this, probably 90% Mormons there. We all died laughing.

Comedy exaggerates all the time in order for the joke to work. Even though it is inaccurate, doesn't mean it's not funny and we shouldn't laugh at it, even if it's directed at us.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Well the oath breaking thing is different than leaving the church, but it's still not "the worst sin" out there. If you truly don't believe in the religion any longer, it's your right to share those things or not, but it's still breaking a promise you make.

It would basically be like leaving any organization and then revealing their inner workings or the stuff that they like to keep in-house. You're no longer any obligation to do so, but I think it comes down to whether or not you decide to keep your word beyond that obligation to do so.
 

ronito

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
Well the oath breaking thing is different than leaving the church, but it's still not "the worst sin" out there. If you truly don't believe in the religion any longer, it's your right to share those things or not, but it's still breaking a promise you make.

It would basically be like leaving any organization and then revealing their inner workings or the stuff that they like to keep in-house. You're no longer any obligation to do so, but I think it comes down to whether or not you decide to keep your word beyond that obligation to do so.
Yeah you're right I misrepresented. I'll edit. Apologies.
 
ronito said:
The whole idea never really "jived" for me. Yeah I get it, if we have a father we have a mother. But, then how does that work with the original church doctrine and all that? If you only take modern doctrine then it all works out, but original it's a little more difficult.

The best explanation I got for this is that just like any good mother, pure and loving, no husband wants to put his wife in the spotlight to be ridiculed, cursed and mocked the way some do to God himself. Which is the reason He has revealed very little about a Godly mother in the scriptures, out of respect for her.

I know my dad gets upset if I or anyone says anything bad about my mom. I'm sure God is the same way in some aspect.
 
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