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[not psycho]

I misphrased it at first, lol. I tried to edit it to what I was trying to communicate fast after I realized it, but I guess I was too slow.

I'm not sure you'd agree anymore.

No, I still agree. It isn't up to us to decide if someone else should prefer being murdered or going through a specific kind of torture.

For me, there are some forms of torture I can imagine that I would rather be killed than go through. And there are other forms of torture I would prefer over being killed. I don't expect anyone else to have exactly the same preference as me though.

 

[Kad5]

The amount of islamophobia in this thread disturbs me.

Cultural practices in different parts of the world suck but at one point almost every culture had flaws like this.

Only Persian culture and Chinese culture come to mind where cultural practices weren't like THIS. There are probably others.

Morocco isn't the only one with issues like this.

Culture and Religion are two different things. Although they do tie together at times.

 

[richiek]

Are you trying to spread lies about Christianity, or are you just completely ignorant of it?

That's an ancient Judaic law, you are quoting. It has no more to do with "Christian Law" than the banning of eating "unclean foods." (The fact that for many Christians, eating ham at Easter is a tradition should tell you how far that goes.)

Christians were told by Jesus and the Apostles to be free of the old laws. That rather than being ruled by the old laws, Christians should be ruled by the faithful heart. That following the old law was a fool's errand, and that the old law was a curse on the people. That no foods were unclean, ect. ect. ect. Much of the New Testament's Book of Galatians is a rebuke to people who wanted to hand on to the old laws, he called their desire to cling to the law as a "carnal desire."

The New Testament actually does call the law a curse. It also compares it to a harsh taskmaster or teacher that is no longer needed. It really doesn't get any more plain than that.

Here's a few passages:

Mark 7:19
Colossians 2:16-17
Galatians 3:1-3
Galatians 3:10-13
Romans 6:14
Romans 8:4
Galatians 3:23
Galatians 4:21-31

Try telling that to Christians who use Leviticus to justify their hatred of homosexuals.

 

[BobsRevenge]

No, I still agree. It isn't up to us to decide if someone else should prefer being murdered or going through a specific kind of torture.

For me, there are some forms of torture I can imagine that I would rather be killed than go through. And there are other forms of torture I would prefer over being killed. I don't expect anyone else to have exactly the same preference as me though.

If I knew I'd come out the other end okay, I'd like to think I'd be able to go through it. It's temporary.

This discussion has definitely reached a strange place though, haha. The closest thing to torture I've dealt with personally was second degree burns on my shoulders (perhaps woman issues in college counts too), so most of this opinion is based on documentaries and such.

People who go through torture and come out on the other side of it can typically find themselves able to manage the trauma and find happiness and meaning like anyone else. Shit, some people say they wouldn't give up that experience because it helped make them better people. Weird shit.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I don't understand why she killed herself instead of killing the guy????

She would have probably been stoned to death as a result?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

"According to the newspaper, this type of forced marriage is rooted in local rural traditions to safeguard the honor of girls who are raped."

Bullshit. Fuck this shit.

 

[Socreges]

Sounds more like a Christian Law.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24: 'If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.'

The fuck?

damnit

 

[FrenchToastDisciple]

Guys, we should probably take more care to not make this incident an indictment on Morocco in general. Most countries in this world don't have nearly as centralized or ubiquitous Nation State rule as countries in Western Europe or North America which leads to a lot of situations in which local autonomy is enough so these legal decisions can be made. They might be completely antithetical to national law and policy, but they slip through the cracks because there is less centralized political control. I don't think a lot of people in the West get this, the great variations in legal norms and practices within one country, and they simply assume that incidents like this prove the backwardness of the "Middle East" or "Insert Arab country here." I've seen a bit of that ignorance in this thread and it's troublesome.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Fuck their culture and fuck their traditions. Flush it down the fucking toilet. Fuck it.

 

[mt1200]

Sounds more like a Christian Law.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24: 'If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.'

I'll never understand bible's logic.

Spoiler

Unless they saw marriage as a punishment and way of paying back to the woman for all the trouble

 

[CornBurrito]

I didn't say rape was always worse than murder. I said rape is torture, and torture can be worse than murder.

Not always. But it can be. "At least you aren't dead" is way too simplistic.

I'd never say that to a rape victim. That would be absolutely awful to say.

But I do believe that -on average- murder is worse than rape.

 

[Bombadil]

Islam has many of the same laws as Christianity and Judaism.




Islam is merely an extension of Judaism, much like Christianity. Same god, similar laws, with just a few details changed.

If you want I'll edit my post to say Koran, rather than Bible.

Where in the Koran does it say that the rapist gets off scot-free when marrying the victim?

 

[CornBurrito]

Culture and Religion are two different things. Although they do tie together at times.

Culture encompasses religion.

They don't tie together at times. They are linked all the time.

I view it much like the relationship between the words animal, and dog.

A dog is a type of animal.

Religion is a facet of culture.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

For you self-appointed Christians who take umbrage over my comparison of you with Islam:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29: "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife."

No. Difference. At. All. With.What.This.Judge.Has.Ruled.

Read the thread

 

[Devolution]

This is what happens in cultures where women are essentially property and their sexuality is shameful.

 

[Bombadil]

For you self-appointed Christians who take umbrage over my comparison of you with Islam:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29: "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife."

No. Difference. At. All. With.What.This.Judge.Has.Ruled.

Does "lay hold on her" translate into "rape?"

What was the original wording of that verse, in what language, and what do those words mean in that language?

The law itself is outdated, regardless. But in the past, if two consenting individuals had sex out of wedlock, then the rule was that they would be married, and it would be horrifying a concept than having the rapist marry the victim.

 

[Devolution]

Does "lay hold on her" translate into "rape?"

What was the original wording of that verse, in what language, and what do those words mean in that language?

The law itself is outdated, regardless. But in the past, if two consenting individuals had sex out of wedlock, then the rule was that they would be married, and it would be horrifying a concept than having the rapist marry the victim.

It doesn't make a distinction. When these things were written "rape" didn't even exist in terms of getting a woman's consent honestly, it only existed as soiling a father's or husband's property. That's why Abrahamic religions are pretty awful. So when it says lay onto her it just means fuck her in any sort of way.

 

[Smellycat]

Assuming she could muster enough witnesses, of course.

Well yeah, of course she needs witnesses, and DNA samples (although I think some Islamic courts are reluctant to use that). Rape is very difficult to prove, especially if there are no witnesses. DNA isn't sufficient evidence by itself, because it only proves fornication (99% of the time). A woman could have had consensual sex with a man, and later regretted it. Then she later claimed that the man raped her.

It is very tricky.

 

[Jenov]

It doesn't make a distinction. When these things were written "rape" didn't even exist in terms of getting a woman's consent honestly, it only existed as soiling a father's or husband's property. That's why Abrahamic religions are pretty awful. So when it says lay onto her it just means fuck her in any sort of way.

Another poster earlier pointed out that there is a distinction because the word "forced" is used in another passage within the same book.

"Deuteronomy only gives sentences to adultery/fornication, I don't know why so many interpret it to mean rape. Verses 25-26 clear this up, "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter".

Distinctively, the term "forced" is used here in contrast to the other verses that discuss adultery."

 

[Monocle]

Disgusting and indefensible.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

So......is that how you pick a wife instead of going on dates?

Seriously, dude?

Kind of sad that this doesn't surprise me, though. That entire country is ass-backwards.

 

[Kinyou]

This is what happens in cultures where women are essentially property and their sexuality is shameful.

It literally objectives women. I mean the whole judgment could be translated into "You break it, you buy it"

Another poster earlier pointed out that there is a distinction because the word "forced" is used in another passage within the same book.

"Deuteronomy only gives sentences to adultery/fornication, I don't know why so many interpret it to mean rape. Verses 25-26 clear this up, "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter".

Distinctively, the term "forced" is used here in contrast to the other verses that discuss adultery."

What about this one though?

Deuteronomy 22:23
'If, while in a town, a man happens to meet a woman who is engaged to be married and he has sex with her. Take them both to the gate of the town and stone them to death: the girl, for not having cried for help in the town; the man, for having violated another man's wife. You must banish this evil from among you.'

It talks about cries of help, which obviously implies that the woman was raped. That the rapist might have threatened to kill her if she screams doesn't seem to occur to anyone

 

[QuickSilverD]

What about this one though?

Deuteronomy 22:23
'If, while in a town, a man happens to meet a woman who is engaged to be married and he has sex with her. Take them both to the gate of the town and stone them to death: the girl, for not having cried for help in the town; the man, for having violated another man's wife. You must banish this evil from among you.'

It talks about cries of help, which obviously implies that the woman was raped. That the rapist might have threatened to kill her if she screams doesn't seem to occur to anyone

it just assumes it was consensual, because it was "in the town" so it assumes that if she screams people will help her, if they see the woman as being rape or out of town (far from people) then:

Deuteronomy 25-27
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

Like somebody else said, back in the day sexual purity was a really big fucking deal

 

[CornBurrito]

It literally objectives women. I mean the whole judgment could be translated into "You break it, you buy it"

I wonder if they believe that a husband cannot rape his wife.

 

[Kenshin001]

Really hard to comprehend how this sort of thing goes on in 2012, I mean it's straight out of the Middle Ages. People talk about respecting other's cultures, not interfering in other country's business etc but I think these sort of policies demand pressure from the international community to be stopped. It's just wrong, plain and simple.

 

[water_wendi]

Fuck anyone that supports this. Fucking piece of shit fuckfaces. i hope they get penile cancer.

 

[Lamel]

SO SO FUCKED UP.

Poor girl.

 

[Devolution]

I wonder if they believe that a husband cannot rape his wife.

Spousal rape as a crime is relatively recent even here in the US. Wasn't until the late 70s that it was finally considered to be criminal.

For example, until 1993 North Carolina law stated that "a person may not be prosecuted under this article if the victim is the person's legal spouse at the time of the commission of the alleged rape or sexual offense unless the parties are living separate and apart."

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32701

 

[BoobPhysics101]

This hurts to even think about. That poor girl never deserved any of this. Nobody does.

 

[CornBurrito]

Spousal rape as a crime is relatively recent even here in the US. Wasn't until the late 70s that it was finally considered to be criminal.



http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32701

Jesus christ...

 

[CorvoSol]

I would just say it's the case for any Abrahamic religion since it's a shared law in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam though I believe you're also supposed to pay the father.

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that this comes under the things that were done away with in Christianity when Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law. The debate about WHICH sections of the Law were ended and which ones were upheld is a whole different topic, though.

EDIT: That said, I don't know that Moroccan Law coincides with Mosaic Law? I dunno. I know nothing about Morocco, other than that they once had a famous mole.

And shying away from that horrible joke, my condolences to the family of the girl. This is a very tragic thing.

 

[Bombadil]

It doesn't make a distinction. When these things were written "rape" didn't even exist in terms of getting a woman's consent honestly, it only existed as soiling a father's or husband's property. That's why Abrahamic religions are pretty awful. So when it says lay onto her it just means fuck her in any sort of way.

According to the posts below ours (now above this one), it does make a distinction.

I guess I would argue that the people who came up with those rules thousands of years ago were not AS stupid as we sometimes make them out to be. Pretty misogynistic, nevertheless.

The punishments do not fit the crime. But who am I to say that? If my mother or sister was raped, I would stop at nothing to curb stomp the person who did it.

 

[Baki]

You kidding me?

That is the proper course of action as described in the Koran. They even give the same reasoning.

Don't be an ignorant self righteous twat.

In other news, it seems as though Morocco (especially rural areas) have kept the traditions of their pagan times.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

No, that's absurd.

While logically it's absurd, I would still feel more disgusted upon seeing, for example, "US soldier rapes 16 civilians in Afghanistan" than the reality. The media is to blame, so much murder on screen that I've become desensitized to it while rape is a relative oddity(on screen).

And there are a number of reasons why murder can be justified while rape is remains untenable.
So I don't think it's too absurd to hold his viewpoint.

 

[Mario]

I'll never understand bible's logic.

Spoiler

Unless they saw marriage as a punishment and way of paying back to the woman for all the trouble

The way I read it, it comes across as a punishment and limitation of the freedoms of the rapist, and compensates the father for damage to his "property".

There is no consideration for the woman there.

 

[ThaneKrios]

UPDATE:

Suicide of Moroccan girl reportedly wed to rapist spurs outrage

The suicide of a Moroccan teenager who reportedly had been forced to marry her rapist has spurred calls from around the world to change criminal laws long lamented by Moroccan feminists.

Human rights groups complain that Moroccan law has been interpreted to allow someone who rapes a minor to escape punishment if he marries the victim. Moroccan media reported that was what happened to Amina Filali, a 16-year-old who reportedly swallowed rat poison Saturday.

"It is unfortunately a recurring phenomenon," Fouzia Assouli, the president of the Democratic League for Women's Rights, told the Associated Press. "We have been asking for years for the cancellation of Article 475 of the penal code, which allows the rapist to escape justice.”

The Moroccan government has argued that the law applies only if the victim agrees to marry, but activists say young women can be pressured into marriage to protect family honor. Her father told a Moroccan news website that the courts had pushed the idea, the Associated Press reported.

Activists took to Twitter to spread news of the reported suicide using the hashtag #RIPAmina. "The tragedy of Amina is a disgrace to humanity," Emirati political commentator Mishaal Al Gergawi wrote.

The 16-year-old was not legally old enough to marry: Morocco raised the marriage age from 15 to 18 while reforming its family code seven years ago, according to a U.S. government report last year. But many judges did not agree with the law, and some attorneys didn’t know about the reforms.

Moroccan women are seen as better protected than other women in North Africa because of those and other reforms advanced by King Mohammed VI, according to the Social Institutions and Gender Index.

The new Moroccan Constitution sets up the principle of equality between men and women in all spheres. Compared with other countries in the Arab region, Morocco ranks high in female political representation.

Yet Moroccan women still face laws that are lenient toward husbands who harm their wives, unequal inheritances and other inequities, according to reports from human rights groups. Nearly two-thirds of Moroccan women are subjected to violence in their lifetimes, according to a survey last year.

Story here

 

[BobsRevenge]

Sweet.

 

[Azih]

I wish it didn't take some sort of fucked up horror story going viral to start forcing change.

 

[liger05]

Nowhere in the Koran does it say a rapist can marry the victim to escape punishment or that the victim has to marry the one that raped her.

Also a rape victim does not require 4 witnesses to bring charges against a rapist.

 

[ehaka]

You kidding me?

That is the proper course of action as described in the Koran. They even give the same reasoning.

WRONG

forcing a marriage upon a woman (with anyone rapist or not) is 100% forbidden in islam.

this story is about a stupid and non-human cultural practice and nothing else.

 

[richiek]

UPDATE:

Suicide of Moroccan girl reportedly wed to rapist spurs outrage

Story here

Faith in humanity is restored.

 

[robertsan21]

How can a judge who is suppose to be a smart and educated person, be so stupid that he can not see that he is doing something wrong?

these people cant be so behind on the evolutional scale can they?

 

[Skeyser]

Well now I understand why so many Moroccans immigrate here, what a terrible country.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

I did not realize most murders were painless!

Also people -can- and have recovered from the trauma of rape. Nobody has magically arisen from the dead after a murder.

Well, considering the woman this thread is about murdered herself, I think you got your answer, at least in this case - she wished to be dead rather than live through the pain.

My opinion, let's have less of both torture and death. Whaddya say?

 

[Dram]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/15/morocco-rape-marriage-law_n_1348686.html?ref=world

Morocco on Thursday said it would amend a law allowing rapists to marry their underage female victims after the suicide of a teenage girl raised doubts about the effectiveness of reforms to women's rights in the country.

Sixteen-year-old Amina El-Filali killed herself last week near the northern city of Larache by swallowing rat poison after a six-month forced marriage to the man who raped her.

Local human rights activists say the law violates women's rights and was created to avoid damage to the reputation of the victim's family.

"This is a painful incident... This is an issue we can't afford to ignore," said Communication Minister and government spokesman Mustafa el-Khalfi.

"She was raped twice - once by the rapist and the second time by marrying him... We plan harsher sentences against rapists and we will launch... a debate about law 475 to reform it," he told reporters.

Rape victims in Morocco carry a stigma of shame and dishonour. They are often suspected by police and judges of consent, and little social assistance is given to help them rebuild their lives.

 

[Verelios]

^^^^Fuck. About time they started trying to be progressive.

 

[Warrior_Keoni]

Poor girl, nothing I can say will help with the bullshit that you went through.

 

[Maleficence]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/15/morocco-rape-marriage-law_n_1348686.html?ref=world

Sad that it took her suicide to get shit like this done but at least some good will come out of this situation.

 

[walking fiend]

Assuming she could muster enough witnesses, of course.

eh, no?

1. you don't think to prove rape there should be witnesses? (Maybe you are mistaking it with the terms regarding adultery? That is the one which requires witnesses)
2. Anyhow, this has been proven to be rape one way or another [as this is done to preserve her dignity after being raped]


This tradition is really horrible.

 

[Azih]

Also a rape victim does not require 4 witnesses to bring charges against a rapist.

Yeah that's to prove adultery.