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[Incognito]

"Nothing is in writing and daybreak is a long way away, but it appeared all but certain in early evening Wednesday that House Democrats had secured the support of up to half a dozen Senators to formally challenge the Electoral College slate from Ohio, when the votes are opened before a joint session of Congress tomorrow."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

Of course, since the GOP controls both the House and Senate, this will amount to nothing. Still nice to see, though, especially after the showing in 2001 where no senators objected the even closer vote concerning that of Florida.

John Kerry, however, will not be one of the senators objecting. E-Mail from him today stated that his lawyers on the ground found no overwhelming proof that the election could be swayed his way. Thus, those objecting will be doing so in the spirit of voting reform across the country; especially that of Ohio, where John Coyers finished his 102 page report on the voting irregularaties in the Buckeye state...

It'd be quite the site to see if all 44 democratic senators rose to object.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

It'd be quite the site to see if all 44 democratic senators rose to object.

Oh pretty please!

These desperate shenanigans aren't going to do anything to help the Democratic Party’s image... Why are the only contesting Ohio, a place where their party lost? If it's some broad statement shouldn't it apply to all other states as well?

This is a PR disaster--not for the Republicans though...

 

[Incognito]

Learn to read, PotateMasher. The answer to your "Why only Ohio?" question was in the post above you:

especially that of Ohio, where John Coyers finished his 102 page report on the voting irregularaties in the Buckeye state...

 

[Pimpwerx]

Publicity stunt. Who cares about voter reform, why not protest campaign reform? Oh, that might actually be useful. :rollies: PEACE.

 

[Saurus]

Michael Moore email from yesterday, not sure if this has been posted yet...

Tuesday, January 4th, 2005

Dear Members of the U.S. Senate,

Welcome back! The 109th session of Congress has just begun. I'm watching you on C-SPAN right now and you all look so snap-happy and clean-faced. It's like the first day of school all over again, isn't it?

I have a favor to ask of you. Something isn't right with the vote from Ohio. Seems a lot of people didn't get to vote. And those who did, thousands of theirs weren't counted.

Does that seem right to you? I'm just asking. Forget about partisan politics for a moment and ask yourself if there is a more basic right, in a democracy, than the right of the people to vote AND have ALL their votes counted.

Now, I know a lot of you wish this little problem of Ohio would just go away. And many of you who wish this are Democrats. You just want to move on (no pun intended!). I can't say I blame you. It's rough to lose two elections in a row when the first one you actually won and the second one you should have won. And it seems this time around, about 3 million more Americans preferred to continue the war in Iraq and give the rich more tax breaks than those who didn't. No sense living in denial about that.

But something isn't right in Ohio and more than a dozen members of the House of Representatives believe it is worth investigating.

So on Thursday at 1:00pm, Rep. John Conyers of Detroit will rise and object to the vote count in Ohio. According to the laws of this land, he will not be allowed to speak unless at least one of you -- one member of the United States Senate -- agrees to let him have the floor.

A very embarrassing moment during the last session of Congress occurred in the first week when none of you would allow the members of Congress who were black to have the floor to object to the Florida vote count. Remember that? You thought no one would ever notice, didn't you? You certainly lucked out that night when the networks decided not to show how you shut down every single member of the Congressional Black Caucus.

No such luck this year. Everyone now knows about that moment of shame. Thank you? You’re welcome.

But this Thursday, at 1:00pm, you will have a chance to redeem yourself.

Congressman Conyers and a dozen other members of Congress have some serious questions about how the Republican secretary of state in Ohio (who was also the state’s co-chair of Bush’s reelection campaign) conducted the election on November 2. The list of possible offenses of how voters were denied access to the polls and how over a hundred thousand of their votes have yet to be counted is more than worthy of your consideration. It may not change the outcome, but you have a supreme responsibility to make sure that EVERY vote is counted. Who amongst you would disagree with that?

If you would like to read more about the specific charges, I ask that you read these two links: “Senators Should Object to Ohio Vote” —by Jesse Jackson and “Ten Preliminary Reasons Why the Bush Vote Does Not Compute, and Why Congress Must Investigate Rather Than Certify the Electoral College”. I am asking everyone on my mailing list to send you a letter joining me in this call to you to do your job and investigate what happened before you certify the vote.

It only takes one member of the House and one member of the Senate to stop the acceptance of the Electoral College vote and force a legitimate debate and investigation. Do you know why this provision is set in stone in our nation’s laws? I mean, why would we allow just two officials in a body of 535 members to throw a wrench into the works? The law exists because nothing is more sacred than the integrity of the ballot box and if there is ANY possibility of fraud or incompetence, then it MUST be addressed. Because if we don't have the vote, what are we left with?

C'mon Senators! Especially you Democrats. Here is your one shining moment of courage. Will you allow the gavel to come down on our black members of Congress once again? Or will you stand up for their right to object?

We will all be watching.

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com
mmflint@aol.com

 

[MIMIC]

Speaking of Michael Moore, what ever happened to his plan to monitor election sites with cameras?

 

[Saurus]

Here's some interesting videos:
http://www.thefreespeechzone.net/#ohio

Speaking of Michael Moore, what ever happened to his plan to monitor election sites with cameras?

 

[Pimpwerx]

Speaking of Michael Moore, what ever happened to his plan to monitor election sites with cameras?

He ate it. :lol PEACE.

 

[Che]

Speaking of Michael Moore, what ever happened to his plan to monitor election sites with cameras?

We'll have to wait. I assume that he'll probably reveal a lot of stuff in his next documentary.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Learn to read, PotateMasher. The answer to your "Why only Ohio?" question was in the post above you:

My question still stands... Why would Mr. Conyers--the congressman from MICHIGAN--choose Ohio over Michigan to do his report...

For that matter, why not Pennsylvania? The margin of victory in each respective state wasn't all that different (2.1% to 2.4% IIRC)...

But I say keep going... This is nothing but good news for Republicans...

 

[Incognito]

My question still stands... Why would Mr. Conyers--the congressman from MICHIGAN--choose Ohio over Michigan to do his report...

For that matter, why not Pennsylvania? The margin of victory in each respective state wasn't all that different (2.1% to 2.4% IIRC)...

But I say keep going... This is nothing but good news for Republicans...

What does margin of percentage win have to do with anything? The fact is that major voting problems were rampant in Ohio(thus the investigation) -- not Michigan, not Pennslyvania, and not Florida, Iowa, or New Mexico where margins were also close.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

What about all the voters in states like Ohio where the Democrats faught to keep Ralph Nader off of the ballot? Where do they stand on that?

And I know both sides are guilty of attacking third party candidates--I used to consider myself a Libertarian...

If the Republicans were in the same situation and reacted like this, I'd be more upset than I am now... Keep pulling stunts and see if your vote totals increase in the next election...

 

[Incognito]

Well, the evidence of rampant voter irregularites in Ohio is for all to see via Conyer's 102 page report. There's also been numerous threads at this very forum containing videos of voter suppression in Ohio.

Also, there's a clear and undeniable conflict-of-interest with Ohio's current secretary of state, Kenneth Blackwell, also being the Co-Chair of Bush/Cheney's 04 campaign.

Clearly, Kenneth is pleased with himself -- the latest e-mail he sent out to supporters in Ohio:

As the Co-Chairman of Bush/Cheney '04 in Ohio, I want to say thank you for helping deliver the great Buckeye State for George W. Bush.

Without you enthusiasm, generous support and vote, I'm afraid the President would have lost...

...And an unapologetic liberal Democrat named John Kerry would have won.

Thankfully, you stopped that disaster from happening!

That's why in the late hours of Election Night, I was truly pleased to announce President Bush has won a critical and cliching victory here in Ohio, on the belief it was statistically improbable for senator Kerry to recover.

I have no doubt the strong campaign we helped the President run in Ohio - coupled with a similar effort I helped deliver for State Issue One (the Marriage Protection Amendment) - can easily be credited with turning out record numbers of conservatives and evangelicals on Election Day.

....

 

[Mercury Fred]

What about all the voters in states like Ohio where the Democrats faught to keep Ralph Nader off of the ballot? Where do they stand on that?

And I know both sides are guilty of attacking third party candidates--I used to consider myself a Libertarian...

If the Republicans were in the same situation and reacted like this, I'd be more upset than I am now... Keep pulling stunts and see if your vote totals increase in the next election...

:lol
Unreal.

 

[impirius]

Look, I'm no fan of Kerry, but there were serious voting irregularities in Ohio this election. Whether they affect the outcome of the election or not, they most definitely should be investigated; the legitimacy of our government depends on the legitimacy of the voting process. Everyone should agree on that.

 

[xsarien]

I'm worried for two reasons:

1) Just like the Washington State GOP leaders being painted as whiny, sore losers for not accepting their loss, the members of Congress will be seen in a similar light, and the Democrats are going to have enough problems with a 55/44/1 split in the Senate.

2) If you think Bush's 1st term was seen as illegitimate because he didn't win the popular vote, Kerry would have it even worse, being perceived as someone who "hijacked" electoral votes to win despite not getting the popular vote.


My only glimmer of hope is that the GOP can't possibly go after their base in 2008. All of their strongest candidates for '08 have at least one stance that will immediately make it impossible for the Evangelicals to vote for them.

 

[videogamer]

My only glimmer of hope is that the GOP can't possibly go after their base in 2008. All of their strongest candidates for '08 have at least one stance that will immediately make it impossible for the Evangelicals to vote for them.

What about Frist?

 

[Incognito]

Well, I don't know how the pro-life group can reconcile Frist killing defenseless cats to further his career as MD.

 

[xsarien]

What about Frist?

I have a theory, and for the most part, it's held up over the years. It's also silly; not quite as silly as the Better Hair Theory, but silly nonetheless:

No one with a weird name, an "unpresidential" name will ever win. Gephardt? No. Kucinich? Yeah, right. Dean? Eh, maybe if he didn't scream he could've been a good VP. This doesn't mean that every loser has always had a lesser name, it just means that you can always weed a few people out right away in the very beginning. "Frist?" It doesn't bury the needle, but it's definitely up there.

Besides, isn't Frist at least neutral on the idea of abortion? He's not carrying a placard with a low-res printout of an aborted fetus around D.C., unlike, say, Santorum. Or am I thinking of someone else?

(Oh, God, I'd laugh for days if/when it finally comes out that he's gay.)

 

[Dilbert]

No one with a weird name, an "unpresidential" name will ever win. ... This doesn't mean that every loser has always had a lesser name, it just means that you can always weed a few people out right away in the very beginning.

Well, speaking of weeds -- you don't consider "Bush" a weird name?

 

[xsarien]

Well, speaking of weeds -- you don't consider "Bush" a weird name?

Well, I did qualify it with "for the most part..."

 

[Drinky Crow]

I say the Dems not push to get Kerry in the seat but keep bringing this issue up for the next four years and cover Bush's presidency under a shadow of illegitimacy.

 

[videogamer]

Besides, isn't Frist at least neutral on the idea of abortion? He's not carrying a placard with a low-res printout of an aborted fetus around D.C., unlike, say, Santorum. Or am I thinking of someone else?

It's hard to image a politician being "neutral" on abortion. Anyways, Frist has a 0% from NARAL...... sooo "neutral" isn't exactly an apt term.

I say the Dems not push to get Kerry in the seat but keep bringing this issue up for the next four years and cover Bush's presidency under a shadow of illegitimacy.

The third parties or unaffiliated groups could do that too.

 

[Incognito]

One down...who's next? Senator Barbara Boxer has stepped up to the plate.

Sen. Barbara Boxer (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., signed a challenge mounted by House Democrats to Ohio's 20 electoral votes, which put Bush over the top. By law, a challenge signed by members of the House and Senate requires both chambers to meet separately for up to two hours to consider it. Lawmakers are allowed to speak for no more than five minutes each.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&u=/ap/20050106/ap_on_go_co/electoral_vote&printer=1

First time since 1877 a senator has objected the election. It also should be noted that Boxer was just re-elected and received the 3rd highest vote total in the country behind Bush and Kerry.

 

[videogamer]

One down...who's next? Senator Barbara Boxer has stepped up to the plate.



http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&u=/ap/20050106/ap_on_go_co/electoral_vote&printer=1

First time since 1877 a senator has objected the election. It also should be noted that Boxer was just re-elected and received the 3rd highest vote total in the country behind Bush and Kerry.

She was serious about retiring to spend time with her grandkids and relax but the way that the Republicans were running government made her run again. The LA Times had a really inspirational story about her.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Rumor mill is saying that Barak Obama, Hilary Clinton, and Minority Leader Reid will be joining Boxer and the House reps (Conyers and Kucinich leading there) in the objecting to the Ohio elector slate.

 

[Incognito]

Kerry just altogether skipped the proceeding; he's in Iraq, I believe.

 

[impirius]

Rumor mill is saying that Barak Obama, Hilary Clinton, and Minority Leader Reid will be joining Boxer and the House reps (Conyers and Kucinich leading there) in the objecting to the Ohio elector slate.

Man... I fully support an investigation of Ohio, but it's hard for me to pull for some of these people. It's kinda like watching Benito Mussolini rescue a cat from a tree; you hope he succeeds for the cat's sake, but c'mon, it's Mussolini.

 

[xsarien]

Man... I fully support an investigation of Ohio, but it's hard for me to pull for some of these people. It's kinda like watching Benito Mussolini rescue a cat from a tree; you hope he succeeds for the cat's sake, but c'mon, it's Mussolini.

What the hell is there not to like about Obama?

 

[Nerevar]

I can't believe the attitude people are taking in this thread. Voting is the foundation of our democracy. I'm sorry if some midwestern hicks will view this as some effort by whiny northern and west-coast liberals to overturn the vote in one state, but frankly i don't give a shit what the dumb rednecks in this country think. I don't care if this changes the election or not (which it won't). I just want to know that when people in this country vote their vote will be counted fairly. How can anyone who's not a complete dumbass (or against the free practice of democracy) be opposed to this?

 

[videogamer]

What the hell is there not to like about Obama?

Spoiler

shhhhh... he's a liberal

 

[Incognito]

Seems all the presumed objectors besides Boxer skipped out. Oh well, better than the 2001 showing.

Do you have a senator?

Yes.

Senate is retired...

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

What the hell is there not to like about Obama?

this, I guess.

edit: beaten by Hammy.

 

[impirius]

What the hell is there not to like about Obama?

Some of those people, not all of them. I don't know much about Obama.

Edit: geez, you'd think I said something bad about Nintendo.

 

[MIMIC]

C-SPAN live: http://www.c-span.org/watch/cspan_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

Well, the evidence of rampant voter irregularites in Ohio is for all to see via Conyer's 102 page report. There's also been numerous threads at this very forum containing videos of voter suppression in Ohio.

Also, there's a clear and undeniable conflict-of-interest with Ohio's current secretary of state, Kenneth Blackwell, also being the Co-Chair of Bush/Cheney's 04 campaign.

Clearly, Kenneth is pleased with himself -- the latest e-mail he sent out to supporters in Ohio:



....

honestly, that didn't stop what's-her-fuck in Florida from doing the same thing in 2000 and no one raised any noise about it then and I don't think it will happen now either. Sad, but true.

 

[impirius]

C-SPAN live: http://www.c-span.org/watch/cspan_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS

What I've seen so far:
Democrats: "This is a racial issue!"
Republicans: "This is Congress, we're not supposed to disagree!"

Sigh.

 

[human5892]

From a friend's blog:

For those of you that live in the TV News Cave and don't see anything important, Ukraine held elections some months ago. The current prime minister, Viktor Yanukovich, beat the opposition candidate, Viktor Yuschenko, by a landslide. His campaign tactics included fraud, intimidation, and poisoning his rival with Dioxin (Dioxin is a pretty fucking deadly thing, it was the fun ingredient in agent orange.)

So anyway, after campaigning around the ol' Ukraine with a morphine drip stickin' directly into his spine because of all the pain from the poisoning (second-highest recorded concentration of Dioxin ever) and gettin' all ugly because of the same, he lost the election. But did he pussy out like Bob/John Dole/Kerry? NO.

I suppose he was sitting down to his defeat dinner and somebody said "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" and he said "Yeah, I think so man," and then he went out and told everybody who voted for him to stick up for himself and democracy and principles and stuff. So here's the kicker. They actually did. Thousands and thousands and thousands of his supporters go out to the capital and protest, and they're around for weeks, and they bring the entire country to a halt. From what I've heard, Ukraine is pretty fucking cold, too.

Anyway, here's where it gets fun. In a bizarre turn of events, the like of which hasn't happened in about 70 years, despite the fact that the Cold War is officially over, the U.S. and Russia both decide to back the same guy. Unfortunately, it's Yanukovich. You know, the cheat. Russia liked him because he's part of the current socialist-friendly administration, and the U.S. liked him probably because Bush would just take the entire hypocrisy cake if he said he was behind Yuschenko.

Back to Ukraine, where a couple of weeks, two I think, after the election, more and more protesters are turning out every day, and the high court decides to momentarily reject Yakunovich's win and do a fresh election.

After that I didn't follow the story for a while, but it was in this interim period that Yuschenko was officially diagnosed with Dioxin poising and all sorts of fraud evidence came out.

Flash forward to sometime yesterday- the election is finished, and Yuschenko won with almost 52% of the vote. Yanukovich, the villain of our tale, took 44%. I supppose the other seven went to some Ukrainian pop singing sensation. But that's that.

So it's funny how a former East Bloc nation turned out to be way closer to the democratic ideal than the United States. Actually it's not funny at all. It absolutely kills me. Why are hundreds of thousands - probably more - of Ukrainians willing to stick out their necks for and ideal, while here, two fraudulent elections (my personal belief) are accepted?

So anyway, a lot's happened this year - Bush won again, the Red Sox won finally, Middle East, Scott Peterson, Janet Jackson, blah blah blah, my point is WHO GIVES A FUCK about the bullshit that happens on TV when there are important things going on everywhere else?
I should note that Yuschenko hasn't been officially declared winner with all of the votes in, and he'll have a hell of a lot of work to do if he is, there's hope, and he's proven a strong leader and strong dude this far. So here's to you, Mr. Yuschenko.

 

[MIMIC]

I give up.

Why couldn't we just have 3 million smarter Americans?

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Why couldn't we just have 3 million smarter Americans?

Then it would have been a blowout... The spots of blue throughout this great country would give way to BIG RED STORM!

^ Proof the electoral college is still needed

 

[impirius]

Kucinich! Preach it!

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Kooch getting angrrrrry

 

[MIMIC]

Then it would have been a blowout... The spots of blue throughout this great country would give way to BIG RED STORM!

??

When I say 3 million smarter Americans, I'm referring to these two scenarios:

a) 3 million of the Republicans who voted for Bush voted for Kerry or b) 3 million Republicans stayed home that day.

 

[impirius]

Holy crap... California Rep. David Dreier is saying that this whole thing is giving encouragement to terrorists. Wow.

 

[shoplifter]

Yeah, I'm laffo-ing at that.

 

[impirius]

Just when I thought it couldn't get any better...

Loosely quoting California Rep. Maxine Waters: "I'd like to dedicate my objection to the certification of the Ohio vote to Michael Moore..."

"Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell... I'm ashamed to say, an African-American man..."


Those comments after a Republican accused Michael Moore of manipulating the Democrats. DAMMIT PEOPLE. There is ONE ISSUE here. It is very important. PLEASE STICK TO IT.