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MtF lifter wins international womens competition, raises concerns on Olympics policy
- Thread starter chillybright
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TatteredHat
Member
Actually, wouldn't it in this case be easy to check the effect of HRT on performance?
They were weightlifting professionally before transitioning, so it should be easy to compare the results before and after starting HRT.
They were weightlifting professionally before transitioning, so it should be easy to compare the results before and after starting HRT.
excelsiorlef
Member
This isn't really a fair analogy because here you're getting points added on for reasons... in life it's a genetic lottery, and still yet research indicates a lot of the advantage is weakened by HRT .
Why is the assumption that she's not as good as the women she beat? That the only reason she won is because she's trans, do you assume she just didn't work hard, train hard? This is completely unproveable...
Top athletes in the world will have some level of unfair genetic advantage... why is trans the only one allowed to be argued for disqualification?
Like again I'd be really conflicted if these athletes were so clearly above the rest that there was no competition... but there's still competition... so in the end the genetic advantage is much more akin to luck of the draw (though I'd never say being trans is lucky) than anything else, and the IOC seems to agree... hence why they allow trans athletes to compete and have for 13 years with so far no real issue...
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Feel free to share some of these studies. You know, the ones relating to transgendered athletes that apply to weightlifting.
When did I say I know better than the medical council? You are talking out of your fucking ass at this stage.
This is a discussion board, I brought my thoughts and opinions to the table as respectfully as I could. Too fucking bad if you don't agree. Your attitude in this thread is a complete joke.
Go outside and cool down and try putting forward something worthwhile rather than blindly shooting everyone down and not providing links to the studies you conatantly mention.
Audioboxer
Member
Nothing in the sense that it has happened, and has been won. Debate is coming after the fact
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-...l-Hubbard-achieves-New-Zealand-sporting-first
Opinion is spurring from the last part especially, she competed before transition and it happened in 30's, well after a body matures. I don't think anyone reasonable or compassionate will suggest she isn't female, but debate the realities around biology and the human body, especially when it comes to puberty and male/female differences. Drugs can have a retroactive effect, yes, even hormone therapy, but at the age of 30+ so much has already fully developed and while it can probably regress somewhat, the jury in the medical field will be on how much a body of that age can be "changed".
UncleSporky
Member
I'm not sure if the rarity of them matters, it only takes one person to set all the records. I don't think anyone being honest to themselves and the discussion envisions a world where the high end of the sport is perpetually dominated by a cadre of trans individuals all competing with each other...it's more a matter of if we see one peak trans athlete in each sport every ~20-50 years, and they shatter all the records during their time at the top, which may be literally unbeatable for other women. I don't have a solution to offer, but I believe that is closer to the concern, rather than whether this will become commonplace.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
Well the Dutee Chand case was suspended for 2 years, so that's still out the window at the moment.
"Nevertheless, it is uncommon for people with DSDs to have testosterone levels that cross into the male range, including women with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. Even if a female athlete did happen to have testosterone levels three times higher than the `average' woman (Cooky & Dworkin, 2013, p. xxx, this issue)which would equal approximately 5.25 nmol/lsuch a woman would still qualify for competing with women as her levels would be well below the lower limits for males. Anything above the female threshold but below the male threshold probably provides an advantage."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3554857/
This is the problem I have particularly with the testosterone threshold is that it's set ridiculously high, even for elite female athletes with genetic conditions that will raise testosterone levels. The lower end for males according to established endrocrinologists is more in the ballpark of 6-7 nanomoles, rather than 10. It is probably unfair of me to focus on testosterone in women I admit as we're not entirely sure of the effects yet.
I probably am biased in some form, because I can't come to terms with the fact gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy etc. will somehow completely nullify someone's frame and bone structure. A Division I basketball player isn't suddenly not going to be 6'9'' with huge hands and wingspan because they transition.
The only player ever to be ranked in the men's top 20 after the age of 32 is Roger Federer, who is the greatest tennis player of all-time. I know it's a long time ago but Renee Richards was ranked in the women's top 20 at the age of 45, after only being pro for 2 years. She herself admits if she was younger she would have destroyed everyone.
One we're not talking about genetic variance between women only, are we? Second, I made no claim that she only won because she's trans, but again, that's not an argument that she has no inherent advantage. Why don't you prove otherwise, find a result of her competing as a man and winning New Zealand nationals.
To your last point, the IOC is right up there with the best on corruption and generally not giving a shit. A local competition in NZ could be judged on style points and I doubt they would notice.
EDIT: just to be clear, I'm not separating her based on anything other than her genetic advantage as a female competitor, that's all I meant by "women only."
Sapiens
Member
Of course she has an advantage. To argue otherwise is grasping at straws - but as long as she is competing in organizations where all participants agree to the rules beforehand, their is no issue.
Conor_Fool
Banned
I still haven't had anyone argue why my post is so offensive, just baseless attacks and now apparently attempts to shame me.
As I said earlier, I'm not claiming to be onto some big conspiracy here. I was basing my thoughts on the sonetimes narcissistic culture of high level male sports and the extreme competetiveness that accompanies it.
As I said earlier, I'm not claiming to be onto some big conspiracy here. I was basing my thoughts on the sonetimes narcissistic culture of high level male sports and the extreme competetiveness that accompanies it.
You felt it was unfair that this transwoman is competing with ciswomen.
https://stillmed.olympic.org/Docume..._sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf
https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf Page 7 in particular
http://www.eje-online.org/content/151/4/425.full.pdf
I can get more if you want.
Because it is LITERALLY the same argument people use to say that transwomen should use the men's bathroom and transmen should use the women's. Because what if the cis men abuse it? There should be rules in place for people who abuse it, sure. But that doesn't mean that you should deny trans people things because of shitty people.
This kind of thing is difficult. It feels like there is a line but it's so hard to say where.
In a hypothetical situation where the world's strongest man transitions to female and participates in lifting competitions... it really does seem unfair. And it's unfair to everyone, not just the MtF individual or the competitors that were born with the female sex.
You could say that the MtF person should continue lifting in male competitions, but in another hypothetical situation where someone transitions from a very early age, they are not going to develop the prototypical male body, they are going to be recognized most of their life as a woman, so you can't tell them that they must also compete with men.
In a hypothetical situation where the world's strongest man transitions to female and participates in lifting competitions... it really does seem unfair. And it's unfair to everyone, not just the MtF individual or the competitors that were born with the female sex.
You could say that the MtF person should continue lifting in male competitions, but in another hypothetical situation where someone transitions from a very early age, they are not going to develop the prototypical male body, they are going to be recognized most of their life as a woman, so you can't tell them that they must also compete with men.
excelsiorlef
Member
I mean trans women are women... so in the end yes we are talking about genetic variance among only women.. once we can see that a trans woman can compete and there's still competition then at that point it just becomes training + luck of the genetic draw because again athletes will have inherent advantages, it's not just training and hard work that separates folks.
I;m not going to go looking for her prior record because it's irrelevant...
excelsiorlef
Member
It is a totally genetic advantage, like all genetic advantages people have that are incredibly rare to be born with, like Bolt or Phelps.
It is unfair who people who are not born apt for the sports, but so is not born with any advantage at all.
What is really unfair is treating this advantage as something different just because... Because... I have no idea why are people treating this different.
No I actually do know why =|
It is unfair who people who are not born apt for the sports, but so is not born with any advantage at all.
What is really unfair is treating this advantage as something different just because... Because... I have no idea why are people treating this different.
No I actually do know why =|
excelsiorlef
Member
I actually did a while back...
Your argument was identical to what is said about why trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's bathrooms: That Cis men will do something ridiculous now. In that case dress up as women in this case literally undergo complete hormone replacement therapy (do you think they'd undergo the surgery too?) for something like 2-4 years before even being allowed to compete, keep up the treatment after that and present as women in order to win a medal....
It's not based in any sort of reality... men are just not going to start becoming women and living as women (actually they'd be becoming trans men because they'd still identify as men but pretending to be women) for medals... This is not a scenarios based in logical reality.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
Is there any level of genetic advantage where you would think there's a cutoff point and it's unfair?
Conor_Fool
Banned
Thank you. I suppose a poster did equate it to the bathroom discussion but I guess I just don't see it. And that poster said something along the lines of my post being "a thousand times stupider than that argument," which is why I didn't even bother responding. I'm a supporter of people using whatever bathroom they want, I could give a shit as long as they're comfortable. Saw Glenn Howerton in a pretty sweet "you can pee next to me" shirt at a Pride festival a while back, haha.
Cis men seeking fortune, fame, and a legacy abusing a system to break Olympic records just seems more likely to me than any of the redundant arguments against trans people using their gender's restroom. Not saying it would be some widespread issue, just something I (regrettably) thought of earlier.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Stop making strawman arguments. Your link is not related to the specific discussion at hand
Genetics is relevant for athletes
Genetics is not relevant for bathrooms
Stop conflating people who make arguments specifically about athletics (where genetics have some relevance) to general transphobes who make arguments about things where genetics shouldn't matter (bathrooms)
Also, I really wish you would specifically address the people you want to argue against. Making general statements addressed at no one and everyone or god knows who is not conducive to a good discussion
If the person is born with cybernetic enhancements or they look like the 3rd digievolution of a Digimon
Why would any genetic advantage would be unfair ?
Everyone has the same chance of being born trans !
It is even easier than being born Bolt or Phelps
IISANDERII
Member
"Transgender girls who medically transition at an early age do not go through a male puberty, and therefore their participation in athletics as girls does not raise the same equity concerns that arise when transgender women transition after puberty."
Right there in your own link. The woman in the OP did not transition at an early age, before puberty. Most trans people don't. So your link is actually verifying that transsexuals usually do have an advantage(with the language allowing that they may even have an advantage even if they do transition at an early age).
Audioboxer
Member
Which is why debate will happen, and humanity and sports will need to think everything through and try their best to have fair checks, regulation, testing and decisions. More research may need to be done, I think that's a given. However, like general biological differences in male and female bodies, earlier transitioning will also have an impact on later life by stopping testosterone and other factors from fully developing and shaping the body. Puberty, so teens, and 20's/early 30's is where most development is done in the body. Especially when it comes to sports and any sort of muscle/fitness workouts ~ Bodies tend to be at their peak during those ages and begin to decline into the later 30s, 40s and 50s. Or not necessarily always decline, but are at their peak so major further progress can be limited. Point being, most bodies are shaped and developed at those ages and if you've been weightlifting during them you'll have built up/bulked up and tailored a male body during the most crucial development ages.
Genetic is relevant and is a lottery.
You don't complain about other people who won the genetic lottery, only trans people...
I guess if you want to read the first part of a series of paragraphs and ignore the parts that come after. Or the other links I gave, then sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting
Men consistently snatch about 40kg more than women in comparable weight categories. I think it's fair to consider that when discussing a transgender woman competing in weightlifting.
Men consistently snatch about 40kg more than women in comparable weight categories. I think it's fair to consider that when discussing a transgender woman competing in weightlifting.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
So you would be fine with Phelps or Bolt competing with women after HRT and reassignment surgery? Fair enough, I can't fault your consistency.
Transwomen are not men. Try to understand the effects of transitioning before you go around saying this.
If they came out of the closet as trans women and do all the necessary treatment, why not ?
Pash, I respect you for defending equality and equity for everybody, that is cool, but this has nothing to do with being transphobic. I'm also on the "this is unfair" side. No need to call all of us intolerant transphobics. On average, men are biologically stronger than women that's a fact and so forth this seems unfair to me.
Now a scourge of underachieving men will pretend to be transwomen to win competitions. Starring Adam Sandler, Rob Schneider, and Kevin James.
Honestly, she didn't choose to be trans and that shouldn't diminish her win or mean she compete with only a trans pool of athletes.
We can't have trans athletes competing and be fine with it but when they win be like, "Well that doesn't seem fair."
Honestly, she didn't choose to be trans and that shouldn't diminish her win or mean she compete with only a trans pool of athletes.
We can't have trans athletes competing and be fine with it but when they win be like, "Well that doesn't seem fair."
It is unfair, like any genetic advantage.
WHY EVERYBODY IS SINGLING OUT ONLY THIS GENETIC ADVANTAGE???
yes, but:
HRT can have a SIGNIFICANT impact on muscle mass and fat distribution, often to the point of negating any supposed "advantage"
i just threw up in my mouth bc i can see this happening
excelsiorlef
Member
My exact words were actually a thousand times more improbable... because that's accurate because one boogeyman scenario invokes a man dressing up as a woman for 5-10 minutes (still doesn't happen really)... your scenario involves a man who identifies as a man putting on a charade by faking being trans which includes:
1) Coming out as a trans woman to friends and family
2) Seeking the proper doctors both medical and psychological to to begin hormone therapy
3) Presenting as a woman basically 24/7 and thus being treated as one ll while still identifying as a man
4) Doing this for at least 2 years
5) Then becoming an Olympic athlete to win medals that you aren't even guaranteed to win. Which will take several more years all while still being you know a woman who identifies as a man... literally this is why I linked you to David Reimer... Mind and body and society not all matching is toxic to your health and can actually kill you
So yeah 5 minute dress up which is already unlikely vs a basically rest of your life transition into the gender you are not
And even if it has any advantage... What is the problem???
What do you mean ANY other genetic advantage? This advantage is sex-driven. I'm talking about average.
Audioboxer
Member
The differences WITHIN the sexes when it comes to genetics do not tend to be as large as the gulf in differences of averages BETWEEN the sexes.
Within the sexes in sports we produce categories to try and somewhat cater for genetic variance within males, and within females. The debate here is that the male 60kg body bracket, when compared with the female 60kg body bracket does not show 1:1 similarities. Every time, if not at least consistently a male body of the same mass as a female body will lift more aka be "stronger". So a female who has developed, matured and trained in a male body, then transitions, and gets placed in the weight bracket of females who were born that way day 1, can give forth to debate about if a body which has undergone transitioning, but at such a late age, still harbours genetic benefits from being male through puberty and development (such as skeletal shape/density).
A body which is supplied with female hormones and other drugs will "change" at any age, but the science and debate will be around it happening at an older age meaning a lot of the body is simply developed, and "reversing" change this late may not be as effective as treatment during puberty. Your skeletal structure and bones are very unlikely to undergo major change in shape/mass after they are fully developed.
People also raise concerns when it comes to female athletes with unusally high testosterone levels. A women's division is already a segregation from other people with different genetics (meaning men), so it makes sense to me that people will raise concerns when the lines get muddied.
Winning in sports is never about averages.
It is about women who produce more testosterone than normal and fish people with huge shoulders.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Or how about two and she isn't qualified for either? Compitition is not a human right. We are talking about anomalies, numbers less than 1%.
Would you consider then to take down gender categories in sports then?
KarneeKarnay
Member
At no point in the quoted parts of the article YOU posted, did you show anything conclusive beyond conjecture.
Ketkat post in question
If you wish me to pick apart your evidence I will, but I am not the person with something to prove here. I posted an opinion and I was attacked to the point I felt the need to defend it. The fact that you have failed to point to anything that conclusively says I am wrong, means that my opinion is still just as valid as your own.
....................................wow
This is sort of gross and beneath the dignity of relatively civil conversation.
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