Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
sauce is broke
where's the evidence, who is saying that, idk what this post is other than: "Hey idiots, I'm showing you something that isn't as conclusive as I think."
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MtF lifter wins international womens competition, raises concerns on Olympics policy
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sauce is broke
where's the evidence, who is saying that, idk what this post is other than: "Hey idiots, I'm showing you something that isn't as conclusive as I think."
UncleSporky
Member
I think it's specifically because a transition is taking place, even though if life were fair the transition would've been unnecessary in the first place (they would've been born feeling comfortable in their own skin). Unfortunately, a process needed to occur, which changed the competing category this individual found themselves in. Perhaps the idea of a transition as cause for concern is outdated, but I believe this answers your question as to what makes this advantage different.
What garbage?
Source:
It Got too Tough to Not Be Me: Accommodating Transgender Athletes in Sport
Ziegler, Elizabeth M.; Huntley, Tamara Isadora
Journal of College and University Law 39 J.C. & U.L. (2013)
Pages 467-512
Being on the "This is totally unfair!" side without giving a single source to back yourself up while just discounting any evidence given against you. That garbage.
There are lots of women who had bigger than average testosterone trough all their lives.
They had it in puberty, so they also have "bigger bone density" or whatever people are using.
They "transitioned" to accepted levels for competing because otherwise they would get a dopping.
Nobody is questioning them
Then we Chinese will win every time cos we have a sports bureau which will do everything to win. We destroyed lives of cis athletes already with new steroids and such, a couple of 'forced' trans ppl with legit paperwork and so on wouldnt hurt (irony of the word...)
Yep. People are shitty so fuck trans people, right? That makes sense.
TenCentCoast
Banned
We using "bone density" to try and argue this shit now? Oh dear, oh me. GAF's resident transphobes really are on the ropes.
Sigh... read bucca's post.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Just because you say it like it's stupid doesn't mean it is. lol
I can't really get into it online. I'd like to read more about it.
If they fit within the rules ... I don't see how this have anything to do with actual trans women competing
What would make sense :
"they have bigger bone density this is unfair ! Make new categories within gender that is about bone density"
what is happening :
"they have bigger bone density this is unfair ! Ignore they identity and threat this woman like a man"
hydrophilic attack
Member
From the abstract of your source:
So there is still a difference. Not to mention that if there is a significant difference between M-F and F-M, the difference between M-F and cis F would be even bigger.
And they didn't consider bone density.
"b-b-bu hormones"
"actually transgender women and cis women have the same levels of hormones"
"b-b-bu bone density"
ignoring the fact that bone density, muscle mass, etc., can hugely vary between cis women as well... :/
Bucca's knowledge of HRT is wrong. He's not an endocrinologist or a medical professional. Its true, men are stronger than women. But transwomen are not men, and he clearly doesn't get what goes into that.
excelsiorlef
Member
Umm trans people have been allowed in the Olympics for 13 years....
So hasn't happened...
And the part you are citing refers to this study:
Which doesn't look serious to me.
I don't think there is still convincing evidence supporting this. So I'm totally with bucca.
Cool, then don't say I'm posting garbage because what I'm defending is based on common knowledge. Nothing against trans. Read what I said before.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Men have a huge advantage in upper body strength over women. It's just the way it is.
The Marine Corps went so far as to remove the pull up requirement for women because no one could pass it.
so much lofty ideals, so little regard to how the world works at this moment. I am just posting an unfortunate reality.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Once again, you're extremely condescending. It makes it frustrating to discuss anything with you. You're pretty consistent with this.
Bone density is extremely important.
And what do you think creates such advantage ?
The force men make to lift their huge penises ?
And the part you are citing refers to this study:
Which doesn't look serious to me.
I don't think there is still convincing evidence supporting this. So I'm totally with bucca.
The NCAA isn't serious? Even though they have teams of people in the same field as Bucca? But you trust Bucca because he agrees with you? See? Garbage.
Explain what you think about bone density, and how that relates to weightlifting.
excelsiorlef
Member
Except you're not because trans people have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004 and none of what you said happened.
Audioboxer
Member
It would be good if you could point out where I said that.
Of course, they count, the debate spurred from this topic around athletes transitioning when they are at an "older" age. Can we do further research into how much of an effect drugs have on fully developed male bone structure, strength and overall body shape and so on?
I mean cmon, it's biology 101 that we have done many years of research and understanding into puberty, and roughly when bodies stop developing. The same goes for the mass of research into differences between the male and female bodies. Transitioning hasn't been around for that long, and even you should be able to admit the drugs and therapy administered have varying degrees of success on overall changes to a body (physically and internally), especially one which is undergoing treatment at an older age. This has nothing to do with anyone incorrectly associating a gender, I think you'll find most will accept gender dysphoria is a medical condition and it IS more important what a mind thinks/feels, rather than what a physical body shows. However, like it or not, the field of sports has categories and ultimately separated the sexes for a long time and it's born out of understandings around fairness and trying to spur on competition, not have some mass free for all like Platy seems to want.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
It's just genetics. The same way that pain tolerance tends to be higher for women or that redheads experience pain differently.
witchedwiz
Member
some would just stay silent because you know "gotta avoid discrimination", but no..
this is not discrimination...
by transitioning m to f, you're usually gaining an unfair advantage over your opponents...
saying that this is discrimination is being obtuse at best, pushing your own self-righteous agenda at best..
we all want to be able to do what you want, already medicine has made leap and bound and we have the possibility for people to do gender transition, but at the moment we have no way to address the "left-over" in the individual built..
you might not want to like it, but unless we define something like a "median deviation" from "expected form" when m transition to f, I for one, stand for avoiding allowing transgenders from olympics..
some would advocate that some female already deviate so much from the physical standard that they stand in a category of their own (physically serena seems in an all different class from sharapova or most of the athele in her same sport), but that's something they are born with..
while I understand that the reasoning would be "male don't transition to female to get a gold medal", allowing transitioning//transitioned female to compete into the same category as natural born female can easily put at a disadvantage other female athletes for the only reason that they are following only their natural hormonal disposition..
It's pretty much the reason for having a male and female SEPARATED competition, to avoid innate physique perk affecting the competition result, and the sooner people starts to accept it, the sooner we can *start* at least devising some regulation to address this and we might still be able to see transgender people properly integrated into olympics competition... the more people try to ignore the problem that are there with just integrating trasitioned people into their target transition gender competition for physical sports, the more the integration will take..
as simple as that...
ah and since we need to provide "source" for something so empyrical to anyone practicing sports... there you have it:
Eric Vilain"There is 10 to 12% difference between [cisgender] male and [cisgender] female athletic performance. We need to categorize with criteria that are relevant to performance. It is a very difficult situation with no easy solution."
And this Eric Vilain is not exactly the last idiots in the field of genetics applied to sex transitioning: check his website http://socgen.ucla.edu/people/eric-vilain/
usual 10-12% difference rofl..
say that you run something in 10.. and someone runs in 9.. do you have idea of how much is a 10% "freebie" difference in performance for an athlete? because from some replies it seems to me that you're not taking it into consideration, because "integration hurr durr"... olympics are competition, and giving someone a "freebie" in performance because you want to integrate him and giving him tie results with the "top" ranker of female competitor, is unfair to middle-of-the-pack athelete that to increase their performance by 10% have to train and train and train even more... but hey it's disrespectful to transgeder to prevent competition, but making middle-competitor pushed in the backline because what they can MAYBE achieve in 5 years of relentless training to reach a bit nearer to the top is a frreebie for M-->to-->F transgenders, that's perfectly fine right?
Let me reiterate, I understand that transgender want to compete, but the regulation is not mature enough to accomodate for all the situation... how many olympics have we had? and how many trangeder olympics? their "official entrance" (and not via a backdoor) in the sport world, is so new that a straight up integration is not possible..
That's my stance, sorry
Seriously?
Where you pointed it out? I asked for you to give me a source that shows TRANSWOMEN have a direct advantage over ciswomen in competitions. You gave me a link to men vs women.
And transitioning has been around a lot longer than you seem to think.
I mean, its the same content as this.
https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf
edit just ignore what I said I was stupid.😰
hydrophilic attack
Member
Do you want a discussion or do you want an echo chamber?
For the third time, quote posts you have issues with, don't just make general drive-by shitposts at everyone and no-one.
Pain tolerance is not higher for women, that is a myth.
I never heard of that redhead thing ...
What I can say is that my upper body strength after I transitioned went completly away
ScatheZombie
Member
Except this research actually demonstrates exactly what everyone arguing with you is saying. Within their own research, the upper percentile of M-F is still above F upper percentiles.
Their conclusion is that despite this, the relative overlap has adjusted enough that they think F and M-F can compete against each other. I don't think everyone agrees with that conclusion.
For an average person, that conclusion is accurate because there's a clear overlap for the bottom 95 percentile. But Olympic-level athletes are not within the bottom 95 percentile. And the research shows that M-F in the top 5-percentile will, on average, have a significant, measurable physical advantage over F competitors in the same top 5 percentile.
Very well written post that put down words better than I could.
excelsiorlef
Member
IOC and their research has trans women needing to undertake compete HRT for 2 years before being allowed to compete.
ScatheZombie
Member
???
What?
I edited after my dumbass read the graph wrong. Point still remains.
???
What?
YOU SEE THAT ???
Completly unfair advantage that a MINUSCULE portion of the planet that has an even more minuscule sample within that actualy pratice sports to have !
This is less of an advantage than people who are born in the year 2010's have over people who are born in the 1950's
Audioboxer
Member
Because bodies are either male or female? To transition is a force of modern medicine and science, it's "man made". People do not transition out of sheer will or a body doing it itself. Heck, you do not even need to transition, as most will agree what is most important is what is in your brain, not your body. Hence, gender dysphoria correctly identifying a male brain can be in a female body, and vice-versa. However, as I've said a million times human biology is the reality when it comes to physicalities and hormones. It can get a bit frustrating people want to argue feelings around this, rather than science, but okay, I empathise any topic around something like this is full of emotional impact and passion.
No one is suggesting transitioning via modern medicine does not have an impact on the body, it does. Research and reality shows this. Debates in the field of science happen around optimal ages, as these often line up with puberty. An older person transitioning may well not end up with the same kind of results as a younger person, if we're talking getting as close to 1:1 of a female or male body structure internally and externally. In day to day life, it's largely QOL. As I said above even if you do not want to go through drugs, the knife and other transitions you shouldn't need to. What's in your head is what is important. In sports, it's more contentious because of how the sports world tries to set itself up to be as objectively fair as possible.
But it literally doesn't still remain. Transwomen are literally within range of pre-HRT transmen muscle mass. I get that you're saying that their could be someone super strong who is an outlier, but why does that even matter? The average transwoman is only as strong as the average woman.
In sports, you have to literally be medically transitioning. That's why I've linked the Olympic guidelines multiple times.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Nobody is ignoring other genetic advantages. We already divide athletes based on gender, weight class, etc. specifically to try and iron out genetic advantage as much as possible. Floyd Mayweather has a genetic disadvantage that means he would get absolutely curbstomped by most heavyweight boxers, so we don't match him up against heavyweight boxers.
If a MtF athlete does indeed have an advantage (I don't know enough to say either way), then claiming we should ignore it is about as silly as claiming we should eliminate male and female divisions altogether.
This is the part where things get weird for me. What we're talking about is punishing people for having a genetic advantage. But there are genetic advantages in nearly every sport, whether it's the gene combo that allows them to utilize more of the oxygen they take in, or the gene combo that codes for more fast-twitch muscle, or the gene combo that produced Michael Phelps's abnormally flexible shoulders. There are hundreds of genetic variations, maybe thousands, that give individual competitors an advantage.
Are we going to start checking for all of those? Does each one get its own division? Competitors with ACE I/D competing in a different category from those without?
I think people have some weird illusion that Olympic athletes are there solely because of dedication and practice, rather than usually being a mixture of that and a collection of beneficial genetic advantages.
A trans woman fits into gender, weight class and etc.
IF people really are saying bone density shit makes a diference than people should be clamouring for a BONE DENSITY CLASS since cis women who had bigger than average testosterone during puberty (even if only because of polysicst ovaries) will also have bigger bone density, but look how awesome, NOBODY IS DOING THAT HERE.
???
What?
Isn't this only showing that XX before treatment have less muscle mass than XX after treatment? Like a lot?
Audioboxer
Member
I know that, but ask yourself WHY that is the case? Precisely because of the differences between males and females. It's not an area we have tons of research, and quite frankly debate being spurred on will at the very least most likely get more research to be done. Especially around the fact ymmv depending on the age you transition, backed up by puberty and what we know about the bodies optimal years of development.
At the very least there is nothing wrong or immoral for more time and effort to be spent on looking at how bodies transitioning earlier compare to bodies transitioning later when it comes to male/female differences and the worlds of sports. When tied in with the drugs and therapy we currently do have at our disposal.
hydrophilic attack
Member
???
What?
If I'm reading that graph right only some outlier(s) in the F category is above the mean for the M-F category
Based on this graph, competition between M and F-M would be fair while competition between F and M-F would be unfair
Sarcastic Poster
Member
A transwoman with those genetic advantages and the advantage of a formerly male skeletal structure, bone density and increased muscle mass will never be attainable by a ciswoman though, no matter if she hits the genetic lottery or not.
No? It also shows that XY have less muscle mass after losing testosterone. It shows both.
You can literally see the overlap between transwomen on HRT and transmen not on HRT.
Are you sure? I just gave you literal proof that muscle mass is possible. Are you saying that all ciswomen have the same skeletal structures and bone density? Are you sure of that?
Sure, but then a pre-XX competing against post-XX seems unfair based on this graph.
edit: Which is exactly your point I see.
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