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MtF lifter wins international women’s competition, raises concerns on Olympics policy

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If they came out of the closet as trans women and do all the necessary treatment, why not ?

Because it would cause the ruination of their respective sports forever. Destroying the #1 universal value of sports, which is competition, would absolutely destroy a sport's credibility. If a low Div I male basketball player with zero chance of even getting in the D-League transitioned and was drafted in the WNBA, they'd average 50. You don't see how that would cause resentment from the other women? You already see it in track & field with athletes complaining about competing against DSD and intersex runners. Of course a lot of that can be chalked up to sour grapes, but it's still an understandable emotion for a competitor to feel.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
When humankind collectively came together to separate men and women into different leagues, they weren't separating them based on the gender that they identified as. They separated them based on the physical sex of their body, because there are blatant and proven advantages that come with being born as the male sex, in sports. It's not about what gender you are, it's about what body you were born in.
 

Ketkat

Member
This is sort of gross and beneath the dignity of relatively civil conversation.

Really its gross to bring up the segregated Negro Leagues? Then why is it okay for these people to bring up a segregated league just for trans people?

When humankind collectively came together to separate men and women into different leagues, they weren't separating them based on the gender that they identified as. They separated them based on the physical sex of their body, because there are blatant and proven advantages that come with being born as the male sex, in sports. It's not about what gender you are, it's about what body you were born in.

At least try reading the thread.
 

pashmilla

Banned
When humankind collectively came together to separate men and women into different leagues, they weren't separating them based on the gender that they identified as. They separated them based on the physical sex of their body, because there are blatant and proven advantages that come with being born as the male sex, in sports. It's not about what gender you are, it's about what body you were born in.

But hormone therapy often negates biological advantages?
 

Ethelwulf

Member
When humankind collectively came together to separate men and women into different leagues, they weren't separating them based on the gender that they identified as. They separated them based on the physical sex of their body, because there are blatant and proven advantages that come with being born as the male sex, in sports. It's not about what gender you are, it's about what body you were born in.

Thank you
 

MartyStu

Member
Really its gross to bring up the segregated Negro Leagues? Then why is it okay for these people to bring up a segregated league just for trans people?

Its not. Do not presume to know my position on the matter.

This for example, is not okay:

Or how about two and she isn't qualified for either? Compitition is not a human right. We are talking about anomalies, numbers less than 1%.
 

Audioboxer

Member
When humankind collectively came together to separate men and women into different leagues, they weren't separating them based on the gender that they identified as. They separated them based on the physical sex of their body, because there are blatant and proven advantages that come with being born as the male sex, in sports. It's not about what gender you are, it's about what body you were born in.

Well said.

But hormone therapy often negates biological advantages?

To a varying degree, one such large factor being the age at which one transitions.
 

Kinyou

Member
Really its gross to bring up the segregated Negro Leagues? Then why is it okay for these people to bring up a segregated league just for trans people?
Because one is based on leveling the playing field while the other was based on racial hatred.

Sports are filled with segregated leagues that aim to level the playing field.
 

Ketkat

Member
you and your "often". Do you have studies that prove that hormon therapy diminishes the advantages so we can end the debate? Where are they? Post them.

Jesus christ. I've posted things twice on the last page. You guys are just conveniently ignoring them.

Its not. Do not presume to know my position on the matter.

Well, it was in response to those people, so I don't know how you can say they were being civil.
 

Clockwork

Member
The differences WITHIN the sexes when it comes to genetics do not tend to be as large as the gulf in differences of averages BETWEEN the sexes.

Within the sexes in sports we produce categories to try and somewhat cater for genetic variance within males, and within females. The debate here is that the male 60kg body bracket, when compared with the female 60kg body bracket does not show 1:1 similarities. Every time, if not at least consistently a male body of the same mass as a female body will lift more.

Not only more but a significant amount more.


On top of that people here want to pretend that testosterone would be the only biological factor in this situation that separates male from female.

This is a woman who transitioned at age 30 and previously competed as a male weightlifter. Muscle mass, bone density/structure, size/weight would already have differed greatly. Sure HRT will degrade some of that, but not at the same level as someone who had already seen such development in the first place.

I can't remember the poster (also transexual) who tried to downplay this as not being advantageous by using themself as an example, but it was largely an apples to oranges comparison unless they too were a competitive weightlifter and transitioned at the age/level of development. Statements indicated they weren't anywhere close to that though with consideration to height and build.
 

Ketkat

Member
This is a woman who transitioned at age 30 and previously competed as a male weightlifter. Muscle mass, bone density/structure, size/weight would already have differed greatly. Sure HRT will degrade some of that, but not at the same level as someone who had already seen such development in the first place.

Cite this. You can't make this kind of claim without some kind of backing.
 

Ethelwulf

Member
Not only more but a significant amount more.


On top of that people here want to pretend that testosterone would be the only biological factor in this situation that separates male from female.

This is a woman who transitioned at age 30 and previously competed as a male weightlifter. Muscle mass, bone density/structure, size/weight would already have different greatly. Sure HRT will degrade some of that, but not at the same level as someone who had already seen such development in the first place.

I can't remember the poster (also transexual) who tried to downplay this as not being advantageous by using themself as an example, but it was largely an apples to oranges comparison unless they too were a competitive weightlifter and transitioned at the age/level of development. Statements indicated they weren't anywhere close to that though with consideration to height and build.

It's always like this, sadly. Acknowledging sex differences does not make you an LGBT hater and many here seem to think that way.
 

Platy

Member
The differences WITHIN the sexes when it comes to genetics do not tend to be as large as the gulf in differences of averages BETWEEN the sexes.

Within the sexes in sports we produce categories to try and somewhat cater for genetic variance within males, and within females. The debate here is that the male 60kg body bracket, when compared with the female 60kg body bracket does not show 1:1 similarities. Every time, if not at least consistently a male body of the same mass as a female body will lift more aka be "stronger". So a female who has developed, matured and trained in a male body, then transitions, and gets placed in the weight bracket of females who were born that way day 1, can give forth to debate about if a body which has undergone transitioning, but at such a late age, still harbours genetic benefits from being male through puberty and development (such as skeletal shape/density).

A body which is supplied with female hormones and other drugs will "change" at any age, but the science and debate will be around it happening at an older age meaning a lot of the body is simply developed, and "reversing" change this late may not be as effective as treatment during puberty. Your skeletal structure and bones are very unlikely to undergo major change in shape/mass after they are fully developed.

The difference between the genders is not as big if you consider trans women to be women.

You are using cis standards to try to include trans people.

If you use normal people standards you will have to create a Phelps division.

People also raise concerns when it comes to female athletes with unusally high testosterone levels. A women's division is already a segregation from other people with different genetics (meaning men), so it makes sense to me that people will raise concerns when the lines get muddied.

So people talk about bone density and bone stuff right ... can we measure this ?
Is it possible to measure of anyone ?
Like high testosterone, if found to be bigger can we change it ?
Does it have any LAWS about max bone stuff ?

So if your problem is with bone stuff, make laws to bone stuff.

Would you consider then to take down gender categories in sports then?

What this has anything to do with that I am talking about ?

Unless you think I am saying that trans women having an advantage means that they are less women ... instead of just "luck" women who suffered for 30 years to finaly be themselves.

Because it would cause the ruination of their respective sports forever. Destroying the #1 universal value of sports, which is competition, would absolutely destroy a sport's credibility. If a low Div I male basketball player with zero chance of even getting in the D-League transitioned and was drafted in the WNBA, they'd average 50. You don't see how that would cause resentment from the other women? You already see it in track & field with athletes complaining about competing against DSD and intersex runners. Of course a lot of that can be chalked up to sour grapes, but it's still an understandable emotion for a competitor to feel.

And they already don't do it on their own sports ?

I mean if the bone thing is so unchangeable, what cis women could do is take steroids (which is nothing more like testosterone) in their early teens, change their bone stuff and stop taking testosterone after the changes were made. Then they would be called shitty names, have problem of getting jobs and fit outside of most people's sexual orientation ... but they would have a bonus on the sport they love ! =D
 

Platy

Member
I do not know about anyone else, but if we could come up with really good sub-categories for the unified sport? Abso-fucking-lutely.

If the bone density stuff is more important than anything else than we can create categories based on that ...
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
I do not know about anyone else, but if we could come up with really good sub-categories for the unified sport? Abso-fucking-lutely.

Already have weight classes in boxing and wrestling. Perhaps something akin to this could be developed for sports where physicality plays a distinct role in performance.
 

Bucca

Fools are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.
Pretty interesting to see all the armchair doctors/experts in here comment on this matter. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread and it's disheartening to see people argue over it, especially being someone whose line of study falls within these parameters (Sports and Exercise Science).
 

Audioboxer

Member
Not only more but a significant amount more.


On top of that people here want to pretend that testosterone would be the only biological factor in this situation that separates male from female.

This is a woman who transitioned at age 30 and previously competed as a male weightlifter. Muscle mass, bone density/structure, size/weight would already have differed greatly. Sure HRT will degrade some of that, but not at the same level as someone who had already seen such development in the first place.

I can't remember the poster (also transexual) who tried to downplay this as not being advantageous by using themself as an example, but it was largely an apples to oranges comparison unless they too were a competitive weightlifter and transitioned at the age/level of development. Statements indicated they weren't anywhere close to that though with consideration to height and build.

Yes, it can be a significant amount more. It's important to look at the averages though, not always the outliers, and going on the averages men pretty much always perform better than females in things like weightlifiting if we take two bodies of roughly the same mass/weight.

The difference between the genders is not as big if you consider trans women to be women.

You are using cis standards to try to include trans people.

If you use normal people standards you will have to create a Phelps division.



So people talk about bone density and bone stuff right ... can we measure this ?
Is it possible to measure of anyone ?
Like high testosterone, if found to be bigger can we change it ?
Does it have any LAWS about max bone stuff ?

So if your problem is with bone stuff, make laws to bone stuff.



What this has anything to do with that I am talking about ?

Unless you think I am saying that trans women having an advantage means that they are less women ... instead of just "luck" women who suffered for 30 years to finaly be themselves.



And they already don't do it on their own sports ?

I mean if the bone thing is so unchangeable, what cis women could do is take steroids (which is nothing more like testosterone) in their early teens, change their bone stuff and stop taking testosterone after the changes were made. Then they would be called shitty names, have problem of getting jobs and fit outside of most people's sexual orientation ... but they would have a bonus on the sport they love ! =D

Platy words, meaning terminology, don't negate the whole field of science/biology. You understand gender dysphoria is to be born in the wrong body? Right? It's still a male or female body, but the mind, largely speaking brain, does not associate correctly with the body. That doesn't mean you "escape" what you have been biologically born with because of words you use. It means modern day medicine, science and what we can do can allow you a better QOL, or correct QOL, by attempting to help you transition from male to female, or female to male. The biology is still based around the gender of the body from birth as that is what impacts on puberty, development and a lot of the physical biological traits seen between the sexes. Ergo, depending on the age of the body when transitioning is undergone, some things may be well on their way to being developed, if they aren't already arguably fully developed given what the fields of science know about the ages of puberty and peak body development years.
 

Ethelwulf

Member
Pretty interesting to see all the armchair doctors/experts in here comment on this matter. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread and it's disheartening to see people argue over it, especially being someone who's line of study falls within these parameters (Sports and Exercise Science).

Give us your opinion then, I mean it :) What does sport science say about this?
 
Might need their own division for some pre-determined period of time before being allowed to compete against women from birth.

5 years after completed transition? 10 years?

I know the IoC likes to do things in even numbers. How long does the hormone process take to reduce muscle mass to something more reflective of the new gender?
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Pretty interesting to see all the armchair doctors/experts in here comment on this matter. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread and it's disheartening to see people argue over it, especially being someone whose line of study falls within these parameters (Sports and Exercise Science).

You'd be the perfect person to give an opinion on the matter then.
 

Ketkat

Member
Might need their own division for some pre-determined period of time before being allowed to compete against women from birth.

5 years after completed transition? 10 years?

I know the IoC likes to do things in even numbers. How long does the hormone process take to reduce muscle mass to something more reflective of the new gender?

These are their requirements.

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Docume..._sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

Muscle mass literally starts to go down within 3 months of starting HRT.
 
Cite this. You can't make this kind of claim without some kind of backing.

https://apps.carleton.edu/campus/gsc/assets/hormones_MTF.pdf

"Once your bones have stopped growing after puberty, feminizing hormone therapy won’t change the size or shape of your bones."

Which is clearly a blatantly obvious claim anyway.

And they already don't do it on their own sports ?

I mean if the bone thing is so unchangeable, what cis women could do is take steroids (which is nothing more like testosterone) in their early teens, change their bone stuff and stop taking testosterone after the changes were made. Then they would be called shitty names, have problem of getting jobs and fit outside of most people's sexual orientation ... but they would have a bonus on the sport they love ! =D

No, they don't do it in their own sports. They're the greatest right now, but eventually someone will come along who is better. If they competed in women's sports their records would never ever be beaten by a woman. Only one woman has ever ran under a 10.5, and that was controversial with wind assistance and PED allegations. No other woman since has touched even near the men's WR holders of 100 years ago.
 

Platy

Member
Platy words, meaning terminology, don't negate the whole field of science/biology. You understand gender dysphoria is to be born in the wrong body? Right? It's still a male or female body, but the mind, largely speaking brain, does not associate correctly with the body. That doesn't mean you "escape" what you have been biologically born with because of words you use. It means modern day medicine, science and what we can do can allow you a better QOL, or correct QOL, by attempting to help you transition from male to female, or female to male. The biology is still based around the gender of the body from birth as that is what impacts on puberty, development and a lot of the physical biological traits seen between the sexes. Ergo, depending on the age of the body when transitioning is undergone, some things may be well on their way to being developed, if they aren't already arguably fully developed given what the fields of science know about the ages of puberty and peak body development years.

The "genetic variance within males, and within females" is that some small amount of women are born trans and some small amount of men are born trans.

When those patterns were set as standards, people didn't consider the existence of trans people.

If people transition late, they are already fucked up in other ways of life and more importantly, they are as a woman (or man) as any other people who transitioned in the womb.

No, they don't do it in their own sports. They're the greatest right now, but eventually someone will come along who is better. If they competed in women's sports their records would never ever be beaten by a woman. Only one woman has ever ran under a 10.5, and that was controversial with wind assistance and PED allegations. No other woman since has touched even near the men's WR holders of 100 years ago.

[citation needed] that they would make the exact same WR without any testosterone and with different centers of mass
 

Bucca

Fools are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.
Give us your opinion then, I mean it :) What does sport science say about this?

The problem within the Sports and Exercise community when it comes to this matter is that there simply isn't enough evidence one way or another to FULLY support either side.

A study would have to be done following a child who transitions pre-puberty through their life as they do HRT until they finish development (~25 years), as well as on someone who is past the development stage (again, ~25 years+) who has just started undergoing HRT and would have to be on the same treatment for the same amount of time. Even then, humans are so individualistic when it comes to their biology there may never be a way to fully prove either side's argument.

Biologically, men have denser bones and more muscle mass while females have better use of fat storage. Flat out, that is inarguable fact. The fact that this lifter transitioned at 30 years old (well after the developmental period has ended) is a HUGE factor that cannot be ignored. HRT will not cause this woman to lose significant bone density and muscle mass that she has accrued, most likely even years prior to transitioning from high-load bearing exercises.
 

Ketkat

Member
https://apps.carleton.edu/campus/gsc/assets/hormones_MTF.pdf

"Once your bones have stopped growing after puberty, feminizing hormone therapy won't change the size or shape of your bones."

Which is clearly a blatantly obvious claim anyway.

That was not the claim. The claim was that someone who was already a bodybuilder will not see the same level of muscle degradation as someone who wasn't at that level.

And ciswomen can have different bone structures as well, FYI.

The fact that this lifter transitioned at 30 years old (well after the developmental period has ended) is a HUGE factor that cannot be ignored. HRT will not cause this woman to lose significant bone density and muscle mass that she has accrued most likely even years prior to transitioning from high-load bearing exercises.

HRT is more of an endocrinology field for those of you wondering. Why is it you think that someone who was a bodybuilder will get completely different results from HRT from anyone else?
 

Ethelwulf

Member
The problem within the Sports and Exercise community when it comes to this matter is that there simply isn't enough evidence one way or another to FULLY support either side.

A study would have to be done following a child who transitions pre-puberty through their life as they do HRT until they finish development (~25 years), as well as on someone who is past the development stage (again, ~25 years) who has just started undergoing HRT and would have to be on the same treatment for the same amount of time. Even then, humans are so individualistic when it comes to their biology there may never be a way to fully prove either side's argument.

Biologically, men have denser bones and more muscle mass while females have better use of fat storage. Flat out, that is inarguable fact. The fact that this lifter transitioned at 30 years old (well after the developmental period has ended) is a HUGE factor that cannot be ignored. HRT will not cause this woman to lose significant bone density and muscle mass that she has accrued most likely even years prior to transitioning from high-load bearing exercises.

Thank you! This should be in the OP.
 

Audioboxer

Member
The "genetic variance within males, and within females" is that some small amount of women are born trans and some small amount of men are born trans.

When those patterns were set as standards, people didn't consider the existence of trans people.

If people transition late, they are already fucked up in other ways of life and more importantly, they are as a woman (or man) as any other people who transitioned in the womb.



[citation needed] that they would make the exact same WR without any testosterone and with different centers of mass

No one is arguing that they are or aren't as much of a woman or man as anyone else. People are pointing out biology is biology, and we cannot escape what happens in the body when it comes to genetics and puberty/development in humanity. Medicine and science can try to suppress/change how a body develops, but that is the crux of the argument here, it will be to varrying degrees of success depending on the age it is carried out at. That should at least be worth acknowledging and potentially for more research to be done.
 

Platy

Member
No one is arguing that they are or aren't as much of a woman or man as anyone else. People are pointing out biology is biology, and we cannot escape what happens in the body when it comes to genetics and puberty/development in humanity. Medicine and science can try to suppress/change how a body develops, but that is the crux of the argument here, it will be to varrying degrees of success depending on the age it is carried out at.

And my point is WHO CARES THEY ARE WOMAN SO THEY PLAY IN THE WOMAN DIVISION

It is not mario party, it is sports. If you are born with a genetic bonus you will win. If you guys say an Y chromossome is a genetic bonus so LET THEM WIN
 

BigDug13

Member
And my point is WHO CARES THEY ARE WOMAN SO THEY PLAY IN THE WOMAN DIVISION

It is not mario party, it is sports. If you are born with a genetic bonus you will win. If you guys say an Y chromossome is a genetic bonus so LET THEM WIN

Well then just eliminate all gender categories from sports. Let everyone compete together.

Women have a separate category specifically to avoid Y chromosome based advantages. Otherwise women would rarely ever win at sports. It's also why women have a lower category of physical requirements to be in the military.

Some might view it as another form of affirmative action to have these categories so another gender can feel competitive but that's the reality of things.
 
And my point is WHO CARES THEY ARE WOMAN SO THEY PLAY IN THE WOMAN DIVISION

It is not mario party, it is sports. If you are born with a genetic bonus you will win. If you guys say an Y chromossome is a genetic bonus so LET THEM WIN

Why do you think Women's or any other division in sport exists?
 

pashmilla

Banned
This is apparently hard for some ppl to grasp so:

If a transgender athlete takes hormones, or if the athlete is intersexed and
naturally has higher levels of one hormone, does this give him or her an
extreme competitive advantage compared to naturally-born males and
females? Perhaps surprisingly, the evidence shows that male-to-female
transitioned women have similar levels of testosterone and estrogen as
biological women have.46 Thus, once a male-to-female transgender athlete
has fully transitioned, there should not be much concern over any perceived
competitive advantages.

the evidence shows that male-to-female
transitioned women have similar levels of testosterone and estrogen as
biological women have.46 Thus, once a male-to-female transgender athlete
has fully transitioned, there should not be much concern over any perceived
competitive advantages.
Thus, once a male-to-female transgender athlete
has fully transitioned, there should not be much concern over any perceived
competitive advantages.


sauce
 

Audioboxer

Member
And my point is WHO CARES THEY ARE WOMAN SO THEY PLAY IN THE WOMAN DIVISION

It is not mario party, it is sports. If you are born with a genetic bonus you will win. If you guys say an Y chromossome is a genetic bonus so LET THEM WIN

That's... not how life generally works? Debate and research will always be done on the human body and how it operates, and in regards to sports how can competition appear to be as fair as possible.

By this redundant line of arguing are you for completely eradicating weight categories? Or any sort of class system within the sexes in sports? A complete free for all? I'm pretty certain you'll never see that in sports. The reason it is attempted is to try and have some sort of arbitrary system of fairness where some athletes do not just get to walk all over the rest, and competition can thrive.

Sports are man-made, so so are the solutions to trying to have competitiveness and fairness. So debates have to take place and get mixed with scientific research and studies in the areas of fitness and the body. The responses of some people to simply say no debate, it's to be how I want, are a bit daft considering the reason we've gotten to where we have with understandings on the body and biology is years of research and debate.
 

Ketkat

Member
Why do you think Women's or any other division in sport exists?

To give women a chance in sports. Which is why the multiple studies out there (I've even linked some in this thread!) show that transwomen have no inherent advantages over ciswomen after transitioning. At least not any that are notable enough to make a difference despite what all the armchair doctors think in here.

That's... not how life generally works? Debate and research will always be done on the human body and how it operates, and in regards to sports how can competition appear to be as fair as possible.

By this redundant line of arguing are you for completely eradicating weight categories? Or any sort of class system within the sexes in sports? A complete free for all? I'm pretty certain you'll never see that in sports. The reason it is attempted is to try and have some sort of arbitrary system of fairness where some athletes do not just get to walk all over the rest, and competition can thrive.

Sports are man-made, so so are the solutions to trying to have competitiveness and fairness. Hence the solutions are man-made, so debate has to take place and get mixed with scientific research and studies in the areas of fitness and the body.

Then give a single study that shows that transwomen have an advantage over ciswomen that makes a difference competitively. You keep acting like its a debate, when no one is willing to give evidence from the other side.
 

Platy

Member
Well then just eliminate all gender categories from sports. Let everyone compete together.

Women have a separate category specifically to avoid Y chromosome based advantages. Otherwise women would rarely ever win at sports. It's also why women have a lower category of physical requirements to be in the military.

Some might view it as another form of affirmative action to have these categories so another gender can feel competitive but that's the reality of things.

Why do you think Women's or any other division in sport exists?

Because of testosterone.
It is not Y advantages because if you transition pre puberty there are zero diferences with cis women.

Why eliminate gender categories ?

We are not talking about men!
We are talking about women with women level testosterone.

Even if EVERY SINGLE TRANS WOMAN compete in the same sport, lots of women would still win because trans people are RARE
 

Bucca

Fools are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.
This is apparently hard for some ppl to grasp so:







sauce

Your source link is either broken or not linking to what you're posting (Hein Online page with login?)

The part you posted is also leaving out other biological factors such as age at time of transition, development level at time of transition, type of HRT the individuals are doing, bone density at pre/intra/post transition, muscle and fat mass pre/intra/post transition... the list goes on.
 

Ketkat

Member
Your source link is either broken or not linking to what you're posting (Hein Online page with login?)

The part you posted is also leaving out other biological factors such as age of transition, development level at time of transition, type of HRT the individuals are doing, bone density at pre/intra/post transition, muscle and fat mass pre/intra/post transition... the list goes on.

What do you mean type of HRT?

And muscle/fat mass clearly change. I'll give this link for the third time in this thread. Try actually reading it this time.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/151/4/425.full.pdf

I'm still not sure where you're getting "This person had a lot of muscle already, so clearly they won't lose any"

Does hormone therapy change your DNA? If not its only changing a very small part of your body.
I wasn't aware we karyotyped everyone at the Olympics. Or that your DNA somehow matters in any way in this situation.
 
This is apparently hard for some ppl to grasp so:

People have countered this point several times. This discussion would be much more productive if you would acknowledge other people's arguments, so that we wouldn't talk past each other all the time. Your link cites proof that there is no difference in hormonal levels after transitioning. It (at least the part you quoted and I can't get access to the full paper) doesn't cite any proof that there are no differences in factors like bone density and muscle mass that will be affected by differences in hormonal levels before the transition took place.
 

Audioboxer

Member
To give women a chance in sports. Which is why the multiple studies out there (I've even linked some in this thread!) show that transwomen have no inherent advantages over ciswomen after transitioning. At least not any that are notable enough to make a difference despite what all the armchair doctors think in here.



Then give a single study that shows that transwomen have an advantage over ciswomen that makes a difference competitively. You keep acting like its a debate, when no one is willing to give evidence from the other side.

If you can accept a transwomen has had a male body, then that is part of the evidence. As I said to platy simply addressing things with terminology doesn't negate reality and biology. The transitioning studies do tend to show a reduction in weight mass, as well as testosterone levels reducing, but most of them also admit transitioning younger tends to have more "successful" results. Science isn't at a stage where it completely eradicates the existing body by transitioning. At least not if transitioning happens later in life, after the ages of puberty, and after the stages where it is argued development "stops", or at least decelerates vastly (early 20s).

The physiological differences between men and women are so great that elite male and female athletes rarely compete with each other. These differences generally give men a competitive edge in sports that reward absolute strength, acceleration and speed. However, these differences are easily overstated, and in a few cases, female athletes are the ones who have the advantage over male athletes because of their particular physiological characteristics.

Cardiovascular Fitness

Athletes' cardiovascular fitness is measured by their maximum oxygen consumption, also known as VO2max, which measures their capacity to transport and use oxygen during exercise. This is measured by calculating the point at which an athlete's oxygen consumption remains steady despite an increase in an exercise intensity. Elite male athletes have a higher oxygen carrying capacity than women, which allows them to reach their maximum training peak earlier. According ACSM's Primary Care Sports Medicine reference book, this is probably due to women's lower hemoglobin levels and men's larger body size. Maximum oxygen consumption is directly related to body size.

Bones and Ligaments

Male athletes have longer and larger bones, which provide a clear mechanical advantage over female athletes. The increased articular surface and larger structure of male bones provide them with a greater leverage and a wider frame on which to support muscle. Similarly, the ligaments of female athletes are generally more lax and fragile than those of their male counterparts. This gives male athletes an advantage in sports that involve throwing, kicking and hitting, and explains the higher incidence of musculoskeletal injuries among female athletes. On the other hand, female athletes have a wider pelvis and a lower center of gravity, which provides excellent balance.

Strength

Male athletes have a higher ratio of muscle mass to body weight, which allows for greater speed and acceleration. This explains why female speed records in running and swimming are consistently 10 percent slower than men's, and why, on average, they have two thirds of the strength of men. However, when you factor out the larger muscle mass in men and compare muscular strength relative to cross-section area of muscle, the strength of male and female athletes is nearly equal.

Endurance

Endurance is largely determined by a body's efficiency when converting calories into energy. Female athletes are more efficient than male athletes at converting glycogen to energy. Glycogen is a secondary source of fuel you use when glucose levels drop. This is why female athletes excel in ultra-long-distance sports and rarely hit the wall during long races. It also explains why ultra-running, which includes races longer than a marathon, is one of the few sports where elite female and male athletes regularly compete together, and in which female athletes sometimes win.

Short 101 for some differences: http://work.chron.com/physiological-differences-between-male-female-athletes-20627.html

The field of weightlifting is one of the areas of great contention as it is arguably one of the areas where the differences are at the greatest. As above, there are categories where it is more even between the sexes. Sports tends to seperate males and females in many areas for a reason, it's not just for the hell of it.
 
[citation needed] that they would make the exact same WR without any testosterone and with different centers of mass

They don't need to run the same WR. If the greatest sprinter of all time transitioned, he would just have to stay within the top 5000 all-time of male sprinters to handily defeat any woman who has ever existed. With a 10 nanomole testosterone allowance, I'm pretty sure any good collegiate-level male sprinter could transition and be the best of all-time as a woman.

Only about 5 women ever have dunked a ball in the WNBA. There are 63-year old former NBA players than same height as the taller WNBA players who can still dunk today. The athletic gap between men and women is so large it can't be denied.

It's pie-in-the-sky stuff to suggest that HRT and reassignment surgery alone will put a 25 year old male athlete on a par with women.

This is apparently hard for some ppl to grasp so:







sauce

I'll still take the athlete with much higher bone density and (probably) more muscle mass. There's so many variables to it as well, as the above post indicated.
 

Ketkat

Member
If you can accept a transwomen has had a male body, then that is part of the evidence. As I said to platy simply addressing things with terminology doesn't negate reality and biology. The transitioning studies do tend to show a reduction in weight mass, as well as testosterone levels reducing, but most of them also admit transitioning younger tends to have more "successful" results. Science isn't at a stage where it completely eradicates the existing body by transitioning. At least not if transitioning happens later in life, after the ages of puberty, and after the stages where it is argued development "stops", or at least decelerates vastly (early 20s).



Short 101 for some differences: http://work.chron.com/physiological-differences-between-male-female-athletes-20627.html

Tell me. How does comparing men and women athletes relate to comparing transwomen and ciswomen? Do tell. Do the effects of transitioning just not count in your books?

If it's written in a book, then it must be true. Sorry but that paragraph refers to citation number 46 which is a broken/inexistent ncaa website. Not very convincing.
More reliable than any garbage you say.
 

Platy

Member
They don't need to run the same WR. If the greatest sprinter of all time transitioned, he would just have to stay within the top 5000 all-time of male sprinters to handily defeat any woman who has ever existed. With a 10 nanomole testosterone allowance, I'm pretty sure any good collegiate-level male sprinter could transition and be the best of all-time as a woman.

Only about 5 women ever have dunked a ball in the WNBA. There are 63-year old former NBA players than same height as the taller WNBA players who can still dunk today. The athletic gap between men and women is so large it can't be denied.

It's pie-in-the-sky stuff to suggest that HRT and reassignment surgery alone will put a 25 year old male athlete on a par with women.

The olympic rules disagree with you, but whatever, if you say so ...Awesome then let them win ! =D
 
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