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[TNT Sheep]

Gamecube games were few and far between late in the gen, so who knows if normal mapping would have been able to be pulled off. You'd have to look at examples on the Wii, but that's obviously not a fair comparison.

It would have been interesting to see more multiplatform games with the gamecube as lead platform, but as far as I know that list is pretty small.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

I guess I never really thought about it, but Starfox soundtrack always belonged on the Genesis.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

oh you can port the games of course just not the whole effects, the dev from burnout3 explained that GC couldnt run the physics simulation like PS2 and Xbox

Matrix path of neo uses a lot of different effects you can port ti to GC but what happens with normal maps all the textures and vertex operations will they be the same?



the author says he would chop his head if the game goes to ps2 as it was exclusive, the game was ported as easier as possible by a different team is not a bad job but there is no reason to take it as a game that uses the PS2 as it maximum as there are games with more complex effects RE4 has a good artistic direction but there are lot of stuff in the game with fake light and not that great/complex effects



good question that is why analisys and technical discussion exist and why its incorrect to say that RE4 uses all the PS2 has or ir capable specially when there are games that present more advanced graphics, sure it not simple or easier as when 2 versions are released who knows for sure the capabilities of each team as well as resources(time money knowledge) on each version and when comparing to different games well... they are different so its even more complicated


who said they are mysterious reasons? they are 20+ years systems there is 2 decades of games and interviews with their developers, the PS2 presented a very powerfull system very felxible as is with redrawing it was difficult to use but devs found ways I/O interactive for example releases a document to use normal mapping in PS2 and they used in their game hitman in a "shader model" as they said how many times you readed that the ps2 couldnt do that? the only think mysterious in PS2 was the ways to use it effectively and program efficiently what you wanted


what constitutes "better"?, you are asking a question about prefference disguised as a technical question what is supposed to be better?

I will do the same as you are doing to present the problem with your question

show me a GC that do this


you can't because I am not specifying anything there is not context what it is to discuss other than your opinion? what if I say oh the PS2 version of RE4 can run full screen without the black bars so its "better" so what? you will then say oh its because the trees and and leon have more triangles? that the cutscenes are not videos? you have to present a context first if you want a technical answer




but what is that game doing? its a game with an excelent and very strict LOD system with frankly terrible third person misions but what else is there? the graphics? what part of them? I have to guess? let see.... is the emboss bump maps mixed with env maps? they look nice but hitman blood moneys has normal maps wich are better, the light? the games is mostly one light as you can see when ships enter tunnels? hitman still comes on top with the light that changes when you move around and per pixel, the huge amount of triangles of the ships? oh well hitman doesnt have a spaceship he has to walk sorry hitman, but the ships dont do anything with their geometrythey are just traslated that means you have a vertex buffer and just thell gpu to draw in the part of the scene you want you dont do anything to the vertex in the buffer like you have to with animated characters(that are not made of parts) you may preffer one or the other there is no reasont to make vertex move in a ship so we cannot blame RS but as complex and amazing as they are is far more compex a scene with huge amount of people like the ones in hitman blood money specially as they have more physics its not a fair comparison really as they are different games but that is part of the problem with making a comparison without context as you ask



like this?


but isnt it better something that explanins what is there and why is impressive, something like this?



both games have similar effect like the grass on malice is similar to the fur shading in fox as well as the ilumination of th scene in both games is similar even if malice abuses bloom that gives a similar aestetic and well they are third person games that is the comparison what else you want to compare? textures? any specific effect? water is very impresisive in star fox for example

Xbox stomps of course is the most powerfull system of the gen

1. What Geometric-Crusher showed with malice is a good example of how they could had figure out a software solution to implement similar physics on GCN, again if there was enough money on the table...I mean for 1 million USD Angel Studios was able to compress 1.2 GB RE 2 on 64 MB N64 Cartidge, for example.

2. which PS2 3D Third person action/aventure PS2 games have better effects than PS2 RE 4 and an overall image quality in denial, with better effects, better textures, better geometry, better lighting, better native resolution (ps2 normally falls down on this one), less aliasing, better fps. Of course we can have games on PS2 that make some of the features im mentining better than for example GCN RE 4, but overall they made all the mentioned features better and look overall better? VIdeo or pictures would be nice.

3. If the trick to make Rogue Squadron 2 look that good (emboss bump map + env maps) is way simple and on PS2´s reach, why is there was non similar game (Star wars or sci-fi ship combat game or at least a airplane game) that had reached that graphical level? Or there was? please show us. About you say on Hitman, can you please post the video of the crowded scene you or some of the folks posted on DC thread for comparison? Looked for it but didnt found it.

While that, i let you this intereseting video of how- RS 2was done

4. With Ikusagami you got a point! That game uses one of PS2 biggest strenght: fillrate and particles to achieve this incredible feat of +65 k enemies on screen. This is clearly something not possible straight on GCN and i´d dare to say even Xbox, at least no without some hardware of software trick.

5. Malice vs Star Fox: wanna compare char model detail (geometry+textures and effects), lighting, geometry, textures, water rendering, folliage rendering. By the way, Fox model has fur shading, and it looks impressive to this day...Why for example never saw something like that on Rtchet and Clank?

 

[Alexios]

Not sure why folks are turning this into a DC vs thread as if reiterating PS2 is more powerful than the weakest, oldest of the generation, that nobody said otherwise, negates valid criticism, but there's more to DC's few JRPGs than some SD model in a close up still set against a more realistic art style. The intro of SOA alone is impressive showing off different scenes and areas and the game casually throws many ace effects whenever it's appropriate as in the timestamp below, while ST4 and its predecessor show attention to detail/art direction/production values are enough for other cool effects (particles, flashes, smoke, motion blur, lens flares, MGS2's optical camo, etc.) to be implemented on a system not famous for it (as if DC had time to be famous for anything but Soulcalibur). Even if they don't top the masters of the genre (who would have topped these on DC too, had they invested half the time and money they did on PS2) they don't look out of place next to the PS2's JRPGs where for every FFXII there's a Tales of or a Persona. But hey, it's funny how folks confuse matured tools, development & art practices beyond the 90s DC basically ran on and the production values of a whole game industry going all in on one platform for a decade with x or y being impossible elsewhere. 80% of the games would have been just fine on a weaker system with or without compromise just as PlayStation 2 had some Xbox & GameCube ports but not others. It wasn't DC's specs but its (lack of) sales.

​

Again, be careful when finding Dreamcast game footage, emulators didn't display all effects until relatively recently/with the right settings, Dreamcast hardware mods to run games off other devices and not the GD-Rom drive can cause issues and some ports to other platforms had downgrades too.

Some more clips of ST4 & 3 with the MGS2 style optical camo effect going off a few seconds in the in-engine cut scene of the former (14:46, maybe slow the playback speed to see it). Small style and fidelity improvements from 3 to 4 are evident. In-engine reverse Sephiroth scene at 21:30 too, heh.

​

PS: lol @ believing shills trying to sell their PS2 games/ports/versions/downgrades as something not lesser but different and in its own way amazing to the other console counterparts, like duh, of course they're not gonna tell Sony fanboys that their version is inferior if they want it to have any sales. Malice has simple environments, characters, textures, encounters, scenarios, lighting, effects, scale & scope. Its "fur shading" doesn't look nearly as complex or good as in SFA, these things aren't on/off bullet points, you might as well say game 1 has characters and game 2 has characters so they're equal. Also the developers were blatant liars showing bullshots and videos that were completely different to the final result up to a few months before release so it's easier if you just don't believe anything outside what your eyes see on a real PS2 playthrough and that's WAY inferior to Star Fox.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

1. What Geometric-Crusher showed with malice is a good example of how they could had figure out a software solution to implement similar physics on GCN, again if there was enough money on the table...I mean for 1 million USD Angel Studios was able to compress 1.2 GB RE 2 on 64 MB N64 Cartidge, for example.

but there is a limit, consoles are finite entities.

5. Malice vs Star Fox: wanna compare char model detail (geometry+textures and effects), lighting, geometry, textures, water rendering, folliage rendering. By the way, Fox model has fur shading, and it looks impressive to this day...Why for example never saw something like that on Ratchet and Clank?

640x480 progressive scan
60fps (solid)
Fur Shading (only cutscenes)
grass shading
Bump mapping on selected surfaces
TEV water (water refraction)
cloth physics
god rays
textures 256x256, 512x256
shadows on all characters and moving objects
Dynamic shadows on the main characters
Fox 3.426 poly
Krystal 4.109 poly
dinosaur 2.442 poly

We have to respect the particularities of each game. Rtchet and Clank is Rtchet and Clank, SFA is SFA.
asks Cloofoo if it can extract SFA Spartan Total war (supposedly 160,000 at 60fps) polygon per frame using the accurate method he discovered.
my Dolphin gives unrealistic numbers.

 

[Audiophile]

From John Linneman on X:

MGS2 (2001) on PS2

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

but there is a limit, consoles are finite entities.

640x480 progressive scan
60fps (solid)
Fur Shading (only cutscenes)
grass shading
Bump mapping on selected surfaces
TEV water (water refraction)
cloth physics
god rays
textures
shadows on all characters and moving objects
Dynamic shadows on the main characters
Fox 3.426 poly
Krystal 4.109 poly
dinosaur 2.442 poly

We have to respect the particularities of each game. Rtchet and Clank is Rtchet and Clank, SFA is SFA.
asks Cloofoo if it can extract SFA Spartan Total war (supposedly 160,000 at 60fps) polygon per frame using the accurate method he discovered.
my Dolphin gives unrealistic numbers.

Great info! Thanks! And about PS2 Malice you have that data to compare?

 

[polybius80]

1. What Geometric-Crusher showed with malice is a good example of how they could had figure out a software solution to implement similar physics on GCN, again if there was enough money on the table...I mean for 1 million USD Angel Studios was able to compress 1.2 GB RE 2 on 64 MB N64 Cartidge, for example.

different problems have different solutions sure its possible to find solutions

2. which PS2 3D Third person action/aventure PS2 games have better effects than PS2 RE 4 and an overall image quality in denial, with better effects, better textures, better geometry, better lighting, better native resolution (ps2 normally falls down on this one), less aliasing, better fps. Of course we can have games on PS2 that make some of the features im mentining better than for example GCN RE 4, but overall they made all the mentioned features better and look overall better? VIdeo or pictures would be nice.

hitman 4 already have better effects, geometry(the game have a crowd system), textures(uses normal maps) and lighting(shader model) and I will add physics as it uses ragdolls compared to the death animations in RE4, hitman4 also uses bigger resolution H4:BM(512x448) vs RE4(512x288) that is internal resolution no matter if you use progressive modes in both games, actually PS2 version of RE4 uses (512x448) as it can run in fullscreen

you average GC game have the same resolution as your average PS2 game, that is 512x448, the reason of this is the memory space GC have dedicated to it(2 MB framebuffer), in PS2 there is more freedom even if usually they dedicate 2 MB framebuffer and 2 MB texture cache, that is why there are bigger res games in PS2 like grand prix challenge( 640X960 internal to 640x448 output), or chammpions of norrat, baldur gate(basically all games from snowblid studio) which uses something like 4xSSAA or 2x SSAA dont remember the correct valu and output sorry, that is not to say there arent GC games with bigger resolutions or that there arent ways to improve framebuffer space in GC if needed by a special tricks or by reducing the z-buffer precision

it was a common mistake at the time to confuse antialias with the anti flicker that some games use

3. If the trick to make Rogue Squadron 2 look that good (emboss bump map + env maps) is way simple and on PS2´s reach,

I never said it was simple, I said is less complex technically, in fact you wont find many games in GC either that use that, as a curious note factor 5 used very clever tricks to pack the emboss texture in the regular color texture of the ship, factor five was a great development team the best graphics in that era required good programmers and those werent abundant, not every game in PS2 uses emboss bump map but there are a few, in fact PS2 is good with redrawing that is why you can see effects like that in games like area51

why is there was non similar game (Star wars or sci-fi ship combat game or at least a airplane game) that had reached that graphical level? Or there was?

I dont know, but I can also ask you, why there arent any similar racing game with effect like burnout3? why there are not similar games that use the effects that hitman 4 or matrix path of neo use?

5. Malice vs Star Fox: wanna compare char model detail (geometry+textures and effects), lighting, geometry, textures, water rendering, folliage rendering. By the way, Fox model has fur shading, and it looks impressive to this day...Why for example never saw something like that on Rtchet and Clank?

I chose malice as it had similar fur effects to what I have seen in starfox even if not in the main character, I could simply said jak3 for a comparison and that is all as it has more triangles but in malice you can find most of starfox effects that is why i prefer to use that for a comparison, why they didnt use fur in R&C? I dont know that is for the dev and their art, fur shading is not that common that gen and most of the time was used in grass like in pirates legend of black kat or malice, in character there is shadow of the colosus and conker I remember another game but I would have to check to see if they used fur shading but i am not sure of the name

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Great info! Thanks! And about PS2 Malice you have that data to compare?

unfortunately, none.
But I saw the Malice model from the PS2 version extracted, but I lost the link

If you want to compare Malice and SFA you first need to know that Nintendo's exclusives in the GCN era were big budget games.
The games in the 2002 lineup started in 2000 (more than 24 months) at a time when making games took 18 months, for example Soul Reaver 2 took 17 months. Secondly, the actual programming of the GC is something like 8 months because it is an easy-to-program hardware, so a game over 18 months on the platform is a sign that the game is very advanced.

Malice took longer cause Argonaut was full of problems however it's just a regular xbox/ps2 game.

On the Xbox the game is more advanced than SFA, a lot of bump mapping, lots of shadows and lighting that only the Xbox could do, high resolution textures, special heat effects with full screen polygon deformation, nice motion blur and shader water rendering.

PS2 version is a typical ps2 game, smooth textures, low res aspect, fog, however there are positive points the lighting sometimes works well, with some stages even more beautiful than their counterpart on xbox , the game, despite being simple, has good rendering , has full screen motion blur powerups an boss battle, in addition to the bump mapping simulation, which in practice is bump mapping of course.

Malice's biggest problem (even on xbox) is the bad art direction, uninspiring environments. It's clear that the devs wanted to show off BM so they sculpted the game that way, perhaps the reason is that Malice was supposed to be among the first or second generation Xbox games
I don't believe the game pushes more than 4M pp/s (maybe it won't even reach 4M) but I believe some simple tech demo for internal use did 260k poly per frame at 60fps but not the final game.

SFA wins because despite having fewer resources it looks better. It's like building a PC, the pleasure is not in choosing the best items but in looking for price x performance.

 

[pepodmc_]

I guess I never really thought about it, but Starfox soundtrack always belonged on the Genesis.

i liked a lot this megaman x track converted to genesis (the last track of the video)

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

The fight against the Xbox was an unequal fight, sword vs machine gun, it was a miracle that people didn't abandon Sony.
At that time, each console had its own strategy and paradigm.

ps1 vs saturn the paradigm was 'polygons'
Sega brings polygons with the Dreamcast, Sony changes the paradigm again, the important thing now was 'post processing, motion blur and particles'. Note that the Dreamcast hardware was ineffective in these effects however for Sony this was the 'future'. Xbox did the same, the Xbox was not just a ''more powerful PS2'' it completely turned the tables, offering basically exclusive effects preventing comparisons. even low quality game had better water, texture, lighting and resolution on the xbox cause the paradigm changed.

So why did the ps2 win?
Xbox failed in Japan, and MS was also slow to break the exclusivity of important games GTA, MGS and FF.

PS2 didn't have graphics to compete with the Xbox, but I felt that people just thought the PS2's graphics were good enough, this made MS's strategy useless, so EE wasn't a lie at all.

 

[polybius80]

The fight against the Xbox was an unequal fight, sword vs machine gun, it was a miracle that people didn't abandon Sony.
At that time, each console had its own strategy and paradigm.

ps1 vs saturn the paradigm was 'polygons'
Sega brings polygons with the Dreamcast, Sony changes the paradigm again, the important thing now was 'post processing, motion blur and particles'. Note that the Dreamcast hardware was ineffective in these effects however for Sony this was the 'future'. Xbox did the same, the Xbox was not just a ''more powerful PS2'' it completely turned the tables, offering basically exclusive effects preventing comparisons. even low quality game had better water, texture, lighting and resolution on the xbox cause the paradigm changed.

So why did the ps2 win?
Xbox failed in Japan, and MS was also slow to break the exclusivity of important games GTA, MGS and FF.

PS2 didn't have graphics to compete with the Xbox, but I felt that people just thought the PS2's graphics were good enough, this made MS's strategy useless, so EE wasn't a lie at all.

it is difficult to get a precise reason why xbox failed, we all know it was expensive for MS but maybe there was something in intel and nvidia licensing that could have influenced a premature demise of the system whatever it was MS was more than happy to end the system wich is a shame

you also have to consider that most devs werent really prepared for the things xbox offered, in a way lot of games underused the system speaking of the average game of course it comes to my mind a final fight game tha while not bad never was as appealing as the old ones, another case of a failes transition to 3d?, one of the games i liked a lot from the system was kingdom under fire and the game uses vertex illumination in models its not bad, the game looks very good mainly for its design but there is really nothing in there preventing it from porting as is to the other systems, a PS2 port would have given the devs more money but it is what it is, a lost oportunity for the devs, also remember capcom experimented with an exclusives dino crisis but it wasnt a popular game, I think it was decent but didnt feel like a dino crisis maybe with anohter direction it would have been a good game, in the end its their money and we have to respect what they do even if they do it in a stupid way and make obvious mistakes

 

[K.N.W.]

Was the Emotion Engine overhyped? Is it possible to overhype the first processor available to the masses to bring powerful vectorial calculus, incredible floating point calculations at Pentium 4 levels, the cpu that made common games with realistic looking characters and worlds, advanced lighting and shadows, post processing effects, and even made two nemesis spawn against its own console, GC and XBOX, (both company admitted wanting to challenge Sony's success), the chip that became protagonist of the first console based super computer? Is it possible to overhype that? No, but Sony did it a bit anyway.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

different problems have different solutions sure its possible to find solutions



hitman 4 already have better effects, geometry(the game have a crowd system), textures(uses normal maps) and lighting(shader model) and I will add physics as it uses ragdolls compared to the death animations in RE4, hitman4 also uses bigger resolution H4:BM(512x448) vs RE4(512x288) that is internal resolution no matter if you use progressive modes in both games, actually PS2 version of RE4 uses (512x448) as it can run in fullscreen

you average GC game have the same resolution as your average PS2 game, that is 512x448, the reason of this is the memory space GC have dedicated to it(2 MB framebuffer), in PS2 there is more freedom even if usually they dedicate 2 MB framebuffer and 2 MB texture cache, that is why there are bigger res games in PS2 like grand prix challenge( 640X960 internal to 640x448 output), or chammpions of norrat, baldur gate(basically all games from snowblid studio) which uses something like 4xSSAA or 2x SSAA dont remember the correct valu and output sorry, that is not to say there arent GC games with bigger resolutions or that there arent ways to improve framebuffer space in GC if needed by a special tricks or by reducing the z-buffer precision

it was a common mistake at the time to confuse antialias with the anti flicker that some games use


I never said it was simple, I said is less complex technically, in fact you wont find many games in GC either that use that, as a curious note factor 5 used very clever tricks to pack the emboss texture in the regular color texture of the ship, factor five was a great development team the best graphics in that era required good programmers and those werent abundant, not every game in PS2 uses emboss bump map but there are a few, in fact PS2 is good with redrawing that is why you can see effects like that in games like area51




I dont know, but I can also ask you, why there arent any similar racing game with effect like burnout3? why there are not similar games that use the effects that hitman 4 or matrix path of neo use?




I chose malice as it had similar fur effects to what I have seen in starfox even if not in the main character, I could simply said jak3 for a comparison and that is all as it has more triangles but in malice you can find most of starfox effects that is why i prefer to use that for a comparison, why they didnt use fur in R&C? I dont know that is for the dev and their art, fur shading is not that common that gen and most of the time was used in grass like in pirates legend of black kat or malice, in character there is shadow of the colosus and conker I remember another game but I would have to check to see if they used fur shading but i am not sure of the name

Call me crazy but is beyond me how Hitman Blood Money can look better than PS2 RE 4, not even wonder GCN RE 4.



One thing is that Hitman has some especific features more advanced than RE 4, like the ones you mentionted, but overall,I INSIST, is beyond me how can Hitman can surpass RE 4 on visuals...

Agree with you on Factor 5, they were amazing!...It would have been nice to still have them around and, for example, making some gems for the Switch...probably would had taken it beyond any limit. I mean Rogue Squadron 2 and 3 still looks amazing, specially on 4K playing on Dolphin!

unfortunately, none.
But I saw the Malice model from the PS2 version extracted, but I lost the link

If you want to compare Malice and SFA you first need to know that Nintendo's exclusives in the GCN era were big budget games.
The games in the 2002 lineup started in 2000 (more than 24 months) at a time when making games took 18 months, for example Soul Reaver 2 took 17 months. Secondly, the actual programming of the GC is something like 8 months because it is an easy-to-program hardware, so a game over 18 months on the platform is a sign that the game is very advanced.

Malice took longer cause Argonaut was full of problems however it's just a regular xbox/ps2 game.

On the Xbox the game is more advanced than SFA, a lot of bump mapping, lots of shadows and lighting that only the Xbox could do, high resolution textures, special heat effects with full screen polygon deformation, nice motion blur and shader water rendering.

PS2 version is a typical ps2 game, smooth textures, low res aspect, fog, however there are positive points the lighting sometimes works well, with some stages even more beautiful than their counterpart on xbox , the game, despite being simple, has good rendering , has full screen motion blur powerups an boss battle, in addition to the bump mapping simulation, which in practice is bump mapping of course.

Malice's biggest problem (even on xbox) is the bad art direction, uninspiring environments. It's clear that the devs wanted to show off BM so they sculpted the game that way, perhaps the reason is that Malice was supposed to be among the first or second generation Xbox games
I don't believe the game pushes more than 4M pp/s (maybe it won't even reach 4M) but I believe some simple tech demo for internal use did 260k poly per frame at 60fps but not the final game.

SFA wins because despite having fewer resources it looks better. It's like building a PC, the pleasure is not in choosing the best items but in looking for price x performance.

Agree with that conclusion on Malice vs SFA...

So i can conclude that yes, GCN and PS2 both have their strenghts and weakness against each other, so GCN did some stuff better, PS2 other better---We never saw PS2 with something as cinematic as Rogue Squadron 2 or 3, at least on the same genre of ship/plane combat game, i still don´t think there is a third person action/adventure or survival horror on PS2 on par graphically with GCN RE 4 Yes there are games that can make some specific stuff better, as Matrix Path of Neo or Hitman 4, among others, but overall OG RE 4 manage to look more complex and next gen at the time ...

I mean look!



But you´re right that we also never saw something like Burnout Revenge or GT 3/4 on GCN (But it would be interesting to put F Zero GX vs Burnout 3 or Revenge), and also there are multiplattform which looks better on GCN, like, for example Sonic Heroes, among maaany others, but there are also popular multi franchises like NFS or True Crime which actually looks better on PS2. If GCN would have been the main target plattform to develop, the story would have been different? Probably, but things were as they were and we cannot change it.

And about the OP topic, i still stick to my initial thoughts: PS2 and EE overhyped? Yes at the beginning of the lifecycle, because they couldnt deliver what was promised even against Dreamcast by 2000, despite some of its stellar lauch games had some features above to what DC could do, but overall PS2 and EE coudnt deliver the Sony´s promised exaggerated hype of a generational leap even above the best DC could offer, like Soul Calibur or Shnemue... BUT ALSO NOT Overhyped on the rest of its lifecycle, because by 2001 onwards it could finally deliver and even compete with more powerful systems like Xbox and PC, or systems more efficient in some areas like GCN, and also was capable to deliver games unthinkable at the beginning of its lifecycle and when the next gen was already launched, like Black, Burnout Revenge or God of War 2.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

If GCN would have been the main target plattform to develop, the story would have been different? Probably

why ?
for example if the GameCube was the main plattform would this make - who knows - the games would be over 1.5GB ? more than 648 megapixels/sec? what would change in your opinion ?

 

[polybius80]

Call me crazy but is beyond me how Hitman Blood Money can look better than PS2 RE 4, not even wonder GCN RE 4.


One thing is that Hitman has some especific features more advanced than RE 4, like the ones you mentionted, but overall,I INSIST, is beyond me how can Hitman can surpass RE 4 on visuals...

how a game looks is part of appreciation that is not something that has much to discuss let alone when talking about tech as that is not something that can be compared or measured, ultimately a game is more than the tech involved if you have a popular character or a good art direction that can be more important than the tech involved for most people, tech involved allows a game vision and artwork to materialize but all the technology wont save your product if its not appealing, RE4 is a huge game in terms of popularity, way more than hitman 4 thats for sure

I talk about tech and compare it what is involved but if RE4 looks more appealing to you then that is true after all that is part of the visuals, its perfectly fine to say "RE4 have better visuals" as in "it looks better to me" the problem comes when that concept wants to be moved to technology territory and try to dictate what a system is capable or nor based in the "looks of it" rather than the complexity of what is involved and the capabilities of the system because a less appealing game can be harder to run because it uses more complex effects even if it doesnt look as good, what a more complex effects game shows is that with another direction or a team more prepared it is possible to make a more appealing and good looking product lets say "a RE4 with better graphic effects" because the system was actually more capable but that is not going to happen o better said it didn't happen(we are talking 20+ years systems here)

hitman 2 and 3 could have the effects present in hitman 4 but at the time the devs didn't know how to make them in that system, a curious case was when splinter cell chaos theory was developed ,the team in charge of PS2 version couldn't do normal mapping like the Xbox version was using so instead they made a tessellation tech they called "geotexturing" to create complex meshes as an LOD system specifically as a sort of replacement, they did that because they didnt know how to use normal mapping, but then later someone at I/O figured how to make normal mapping in PS2, if the splinter cell team had that knowledge they probably would have used that in the PS2 version of chaos theory instead of "geotexturing" and probably we would have a better looking PS2 game of chaos theory apparently they never added that as there was another game that doesnt seem to use it but they apparently didn't want to invest further in the engine and instead focused on the new gen

Agree with you on Factor 5, they were amazing!...It would have been nice to still have them around and, for example, making some gems for the Switch...probably would had taken it beyond any limit. I mean Rogue Squadron 2 and 3 still looks amazing, specially on 4K playing on Dolphin!

they were great developers but I think they had problems with direction, lair in PS3 for example is very impressive technically but it had lot of trouble with how fun the missions are(happens with some RS missions too), the art and how interesting is the lore I mean the last mission makes no sense at all, there is not a feeling of accomplishment when you finish the game, who knows what happens with the world but who cares? , with games based in starwars movies there is an idea of what the game has to include and what has to be involved with missions, but a story by themselves wasnt a good idea even if the concept of dragon riders in big battles was actually a very good one, its very unfortunate but that is the way industry works

and about the pictures you posted, it depends the place you take the image too, there are places in RE4 that doesnt look good and its ok, not every part in a game will look great but yet there are details to look at, for example the enemies in RE4 have blob shadows while the shadow in the guard in hitman 4 have a proper shadow sure the scene in RE4 looks more appealing and fun but if we are going to compare techwise it is what it is, matrix path of neo characters are not well desgined in their looks, the models are ok but nothing fancy nothing at the level of RE4 character models, in fact they look funy at times and with certain movements, the best part in that game about characters its how they react with physics its very impressive how they react to the punches and kicks in slowmotion as the game has dynamic moves so your attacks dont look repetitive

 

[Fafalada]

But can anyone show me a PS2 game which actually looks better than RE 4, at least to PS2 RE 4?

The list would be shorter if we stick to games that 'aren't' better looking than PS2 RE4. I know though this would trigger half of the people on this board and the 'better looking' is absolutely defined differently by every poster on here, so there's no common ground to discuss this from anyway.

Ports are primarily illustrative of 'how easy' converting things was between different systems.
Eg. it's akin to taking Wreckless on GCN/PS2 as an example of 'peak car game' because they started from the high baseline of XBox version, and the port even targets 60fps over the 30fps of the original. But reality is - the result was still an objectively ugly game - regardless if you compare it to PS2 or GCN library.

And in the end - what we got commercially isn't an equivalence of what was possible on given hardware.
Eg: there was never a real attempt at Doom3 port to PS2/GCN - and yet I maintain both systems were capable of a respectable version of it, no matter how much PCMR would find that difficult to cope with.

3. If the trick to make Rogue Squadron 2 look that good (emboss bump map + env maps) is way simple

Not sure I'd call it simple - It plays to particular set of strengths of GCN GPU - emulating it on other hw wouldn't necessarily be the best way to get results. The game also had fantastic art-direction - for instance very few people notice that all the dynamic lighting is done per-vertex, because it's done so well (much less obvious than say - in Silent Hill games).
But we're talking about the period in history where Space shooter genre effectively died out - there were no comparable games on any system - not XBox, hell - not even the PC (no - modded to hell versions of stuff that came years later don't count). Commercially these games themselves did quite poorly despite the SW license - and it wasn't the system they were on that caused that.

The closest we got on PS2 to space-ship genre were individual sections of Ratchet games - and that's hardly comparable (not to mention the artstyle was completely different).

 

[K.N.W.]

For what concerns the fur shading debacle, PS2 could definitively do that, Arthur and the Invisibles uses that extensively on character hair, grass, plants, giant pollen balls, and many secodary characters and insects even use that Fur Shading more extensively. The game also features big luscious environments, very detailed characters, bloom lighting, detailed textures, pseudo bump and normal mapping. Really great looking game.



Also shadow of the colossus features giant creature full of Fur, watch this video from the 3:16 minute mark:

 

[squidilix]

But can anyone show me a PS2 game which actually looks better than RE 4, at least to PS2 RE 4?

I don't think RE4 PS2 is a good example of good port and here's why..

1st : The release date, the game was originaly developped for GameCube, the PS2 was never considered until end of 2004 when they announced the port of the game because Capcom know it was flopping on GameCube (and because cost many money).

2nd : The PS2 port was never dev by Capcom Studio 4, but by Inafune team (wich they developped Seperate Ways too)

3rd : One of main curious thing is RE4 PS2 port running 480i 24 bits color instead of 16bits colors with gradient. Prooving that the PS2 have enough bandwitch for running better fx / texture / lightning at 480i. (PS: 480p running indeed on 16 bits color with gradient, but this isn't a big deal bc even the 480i version was enough clean).

4th : The PS2 version have better resolution than the GameCube version. GameCube version running at "640x360" resolution style (or maybe lower, so with black bars cutting resolution), no widescreen support.
Instead, the PS2 version running at 512x448 stretched and widescreen support (then flattened for 4/3 screen). Once again, the PS2 have more pixel on the screen than the GC version for some reason.

5th : Texture was never converted in a good way. Maybe bc memory issue and needed released the game in a short time. The devs needed more time for optimise the engine for the PS2 architechture. But this is basic texture conversion than you can cleary see in bad port at 2000.

6th : Another curious thing is the cut-scene. We all know cut-scene was in real-time on GameCube and not on PS2. Why ? Because more faster way and no difference ? Yes, this is one of reason. The PS2 was a MPEG2 Decoder can be used in a game, and this is one of reason why FMV looks better on PS2 than a GameCube / Xbox in so many games.

But for Resident Evil 4, even if the FMV looks pretty ok on CRT (and way better than the trash PC 2007 version), if you remove the FMV from the PS2 Data disc, curiously, the game still running the cut-scene. Of course with no characters models and no sound. But area and camera works is still there with PS2 assets. So this prooving cut-scene are still hardcoded on the PS2 version. The FMV technique is just a way to render faster for the release time and no needed optimisation models / texture works.

So no, RE4 is not a perfect port and if you know a bit the PS2 hardware, you wondering why devs not push PS2 to limit...
For me, this is purely timing question.
I'm still pretty sure PS2 can do much more on RE4 instead what we've got (not a perfect 1:1, bc you can't with the hardware difference, even a game like Crash Wrath of Cortex run like shit on GameCube, but a least a more impressive port)
Still RE4 PS2 port is impressive, but is not as polished like other Capcom title in the same support (or other AAA PS2 title)


This, is Haunting Ground on PS2 a Capcom title

This one is God Hand, still Capcom

Devil May Cry 3, still Capcom + 60fps (so if you cut framerate, you can push more)

Resident Evil Outbreak is not bad at all too for a "low budget" Resident Evil and all background is full 3D (Wich is clearly better than Code Veronica)

Even Resident Evil Dead Aim is a curious thing (Gun Survivor 4), have some interesting visual and it's running at 60fps.

This prove PS2 can handle way more better thing than people suppose

 

[SkylineRKR]

I liked RE4 on the PS2, to me it didn't look bad on CRT, and the game had full screen and even widescreen support. Separate Ways was included and rather meaty, it tied into the main game well. I never expected the game to hit PS2, let alone so fast (same year as GC even). Even Mikami assured the game wouldn't be ported, and hes not a lying douchebag. This was likely greenlit and ported really quickly.

 

[Audiophile]

The question is, did you feel Emotion?

 

[Esppiral]

From John Linneman on X:

MGS2 (2001) on PS2

What it is supposed to be so incredible about this picture? This environment is super low poly and everything is backed in to the textures (light, shadows, ao) and the reflection is a low poly version of the environment behind a transparent texture. From all the cool things the PS2 can do he chooses the one that can be replicated without issues on any 6th gen console... This is an example of good and clever art direction not a prove of power .

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

What it is supposed to be so incredible about this picture? This environment is super low poly and everything is backed in to the textures (light, shadows, ao) and the reflection is a low poly version of the environment behind a transparent texture. From all the cool things the PS2 can do he chooses the one that can be replicated without issues on any 6th gen console... This is an example of good and clever art direction not a prove of power .

dreamcast cannot exactly replicate this scene

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

dreamcast cannot exactly replicate this scene

And this is made by a single person, using an indie engine called Simulant.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

And this is made by a single person, using an indie engine called Simulant.

My Zeus, man look again at the image captured by John Linneman.

Understand this scene made by homebrew MGS2 is not ''MGS2'' the tech demo of RE2 on Sega Saturn is not ''RE2'' the tech demo of Ocarina of Time on PS1 is not ''ocarina of time'' it's just a cut. doesn't prove anything except that this game is too big for the Dreamcast,

You still haven't answered me

Analysis - Retro - MVG: Was the PS2 "Emotion Engine" over hyped?

Gamecube games were few and far between late in the gen, so who knows if normal mapping would have been able to be pulled off. You'd have to look at examples on the Wii, but that's obviously not a fair comparison. It would have been interesting to see more multiplatform games with the gamecube...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Esppiral]

dreamcast cannot exactly replicate this scene

This specific scene is super simple, what makes you think the Dreamcast can't replicate it? It's just a corridor with plain transparent textures, and low poly geo to fake reflections, Maken X and Head Hunter to name a few do the exact same thing on Dreamcast, please don't challenge me I don't want to waste my time proving you the obvious.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Back in the late 90's and 2000's, CPU and GPU (accelerator) technology was advancing so fast that you could buy a new PC one year and have it obsolete two / three years later (because two generations of CPU/GPUs were released in that time and each generation was something like 2x times faster). Because of this, there was nothing Sony could do to compete with the high-end PC hardware, and very soon the PS2 hardware was outdated as well. The PS2's greatest strength was its talented developers. They used interesting tricks to make you think that the graphics on the PS2 were better than they really were.

For example GT3 (PS2) vs (PGR2) Xbox.

PGR2 on xbox had much supperior car models (fully modeled interiors, ultra detailed reflections), the road surface was using bumpmapping, and I also remember pixel shader water and razor sharp dynamic shadows (shadow buffer shadows?).

Polyphony however cleverly masked imperfections in GT3, such as using darker windows to hide missing car interiors, using worse car reflections, and using specular reflections on the road surface that sometimes look similar to bump mapping.

I was more impressed with the GT3 graphics, simply because it seemed more realistic to my eyes. I know it was just an illusion because from technical point of view PGR2 was more detailed, but it worked very well.

I still remember how blown away I was when I saw his TV commercial for GT3, the graphics looked like CGI to me back then. I was so impressed that I sold my PC just to buy a PS2 console + GT3 and I have never regretted it.



I think we see a similar trend in modern games. Console games usually use clever techniques to render graphics, and for example TLOU2 looks better to my eyes than many games that use raytracing.

 

[mansoor1980]

Back in the late 90's and 2000's, CPU and GPU (accelerator) technology was advancing so fast that you could buy a new PC one year and have it obsolete two / three years later (because two generations of CPU/GPUs were released in that time and each generation was something like 2x times faster). Because of this, there was nothing Sony could do to compete with the high-end PC hardware, and very soon the PS2 hardware was outdated as well. The PS2's greatest strength was its talented developers. They used interesting tricks to make you think that the graphics on the PS2 were better than they really were.

For example GT3 (PS2) vs (PGR2) Xbox.

PGR2 on xbox had much supperior car models (fully modeled interiors, ultra detailed reflections), the road surface was using bumpmapping, and I also remember pixel shader water and razor sharp dynamic shadows (shadow buffer shadows?).

Polyphony however cleverly masked imperfections in GT3, such as using darker windows to hide missing car interiors, using worse car reflections, and using some fake specular round reflections that sometimes look similar to bump mapping.

I was more impressed with the GT3 graphics, simply because it seemed more realistic to my eyes. I know it was just an illusion because from technical point of view PGR2 was more detailed, but it worked very well.

I still remember how blown away I was when I saw his TV commercial for GT3, the graphics looked like CGI to me back then. I was so impressed that I sold my PC just to buy a PS2 console + GT3 and I have never regretted it.



I think we see a similar trend in modern games. Console games usually use clever techniques to render graphics, and for example TLOU2 looks better to my eyes than many games that use raytracing.

also PGR2 was only 30 fps compared to 60 fps gt3

 

[Esppiral]

also PGR2 was only 30 fps compared to 60 fps gt3

Also one car in PGR2 renders more polys than an entire frame of GT3.

 

[mansoor1980]

Also one car in PGR2 renders more polys than an entire frame of GT3.

 

[PeteBull]

I was there day1 for tekken tag tournament, it was crazy quality, well above arcade version, every1 on the block made pilgrimages to see it, and i myself went to buddies houses with my ps2 to show them the true glory of next gen, think massive co-op sessions with my school buddies xD

 

[MadchesterManc]

It's almost as if there's no correlation between having more polys per frame to work with when halving the framerate.

 

[squidilix]

This specific scene is super simple,

This specific scene needed a lot alpha texture (reflection, explosion, water), running at 60fps with his own lightning system.

Dreamcast cannot replicate this three at the same time, or you need to sacrifice many thing, like 480p/VGA output to a 480i render, maybe framerate, maybe alpha texture... and with all this... MGS2 doest not look "MGS2" on Dreamcast.
Even Original Xbox have slowdown on MGS2.

 

[Esppiral]

This specific scene needed a lot alpha texture (reflection, explosion, water), running at 60fps with his own lightning system.

Dreamcast cannot replicate this three at the same time, or you need to sacrifice many thing, like 480p/VGA output to a 480i render, maybe framerate, maybe alpha texture... and with all this... MGS2 doest not look "MGS2" on Dreamcast.
Even Original Xbox have slowdown on MGS2.

No one is saying that the Dreamcast could handle the game like the PS2 does, that specific scene though? Well yes.

 

[sono]

Whatever it was it was a giant

 

[The Stig]

*Me in 2001 watching Gran Turismo 3 playing the demo in HMV*

Hell NO.

 

[PeteBull]

*Me in 2001 watching Gran Turismo 3 playing the demo in HMV*

Hell NO.

Indeed, gran turismo 3 at launch looked basically photorealistic.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

My Zeus, man look again at the image captured by John Linneman.

Understand this scene made by homebrew MGS2 is not ''MGS2'' the tech demo of RE2 on Sega Saturn is not ''RE2'' the tech demo of Ocarina of Time on PS1 is not ''ocarina of time'' it's just a cut. doesn't prove anything except that this game is too big for the Dreamcast,

You still haven't answered me

Analysis - Retro - MVG: Was the PS2 "Emotion Engine" over hyped?

Gamecube games were few and far between late in the gen, so who knows if normal mapping would have been able to be pulled off. You'd have to look at examples on the Wii, but that's obviously not a fair comparison. It would have been interesting to see more multiplatform games with the gamecube...

www.neogaf.com

I think Esppiral explained better about MGS 2.

About your question, sorry for the delay, but the answer for what would happened if GCN would have been the target console, because in some multiverse it nailed commercially over PS2? Probably games like Burnout Revenge, Black, Matrix or Hitman, among many others that were released for ps2 and xbox, but not for GCN, would have been released on it and of course taking most advantage of hardware as possible...So probably those games would look cleaner tan PS2´s, may be with some changes in lighting, probably very similar to what we saw...may be with some cutbacks in particles, physics, crowds, but also with improvements on areas GCN is stronger or more efficient, that you can name better than me. About disc size? PS1 was the main console of it´s gen and multi disc was common, probably same with GCN? Also, i don´t know, if profit was a real possibility, then better compression tech to put more data without losing that much quality on up to 1,5 GB? Also, if even games like GTA 3 on PC could fit on a CD, why not make the same trick on GCN Mini DVD which holds double the size of a CD ROM? I don´t know, what you guys think?

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

I was there day1 for tekken tag tournament, it was crazy quality, well above arcade version, every1 on the block made pilgrimages to see it, and i myself went to buddies houses with my ps2 to show them the true glory of next gen, think massive co-op sessions with my school buddies xD

Eternal love for TTT! For me, always gonna be more impressive (tech wise, not gameplay wise) than Tekken 4 and Tekken 5.