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[DrForester]

Homage to another sitcom is some shitty storytelling imo. I am/was expecting something a lil more... transcendant... with him. Kinda like Kosh from B5, no one really knows who/what he is or does, but when the time is right, ends up being a major player in some way to the grand story arc.



Let me clarify I guess. There's direct time travel, and then stories with secondary time anomalies. I would consider the following additional 'offenders,' as contributing in some way to the bog down. Individually they are ok episodes, I guess it's just these + the alternate dimension + filler dragged some seasons out for me.

Meridian
Visionary
The Sound of Her Voice
The Visitor
Wrongs Darker than Death or Night
Time's Orphan

Wrongs Darker than Death or Night I'll give you.

I wouldn't really call the others time travel episodes. Especially "The Sound of Her Voice", and "Meridian". For the others, time travel just seems a very minor part of the episode.

 

[DrForester]

whoops

 

[TheYanger]

Homage to another sitcom is some shitty storytelling imo. I am/was expecting something a lil more... transcendant... with him. Kinda like Kosh from B5, no one really knows who/what he is or does, but when the time is right, ends up being a major player in some way to the grand story arc.

Wow, you read into exactly the part I said not to, the only 'homage' is the fact that his name is morn, he was just a background barfly character and the name is because of Norm from cheers. His name is a reference, his character is not. The fact that he doesn't talk has nothing to do with that and is purely funny onits own, it's not some weird hook you're missing, you just have no sense of humor
Not sure what is difficult to understand about a character that is a chatterbox that we never see talk.

 

[ChetWilson]

Wow, you read into exactly the part I said not to, the only 'homage' is the fact that his name is morn, he was just a background barfly character and the name is because of Norm from cheers. His name is a reference, his character is not. The fact that he doesn't talk has nothing to do with that and is purely funny onits own, it's not some weird hook you're missing, you just have no sense of humor
Not sure what is difficult to understand about a character that is a chatterbox that we never see talk.

A character shows up 100 times over 7 seasons, everyone talks about him, but he never talks nor plays any critical role, isn't really funny.

It's just wasted potential.

TBH, it's even worse than that. If we take the time travel point into account that someone else is discussing with me... it's like DS9 goes out of the way to avoid moving it's story along, and tries to reach outside it's setting to make its episodes happen.

I'll just make the point with a question. Is DS9 and it's chosen suite of characters so boring that it has to go to great lengths to incorporate time travel, an alternate dimension, and arguably pointless backfiller to pad it's episodes list? I know that sounds heavy handed, and as if I hate the series (I don't, I like it), but if you take a look at the first 6 seasons, you basically had maybe 1 or 2 major story events (both mostly unresolved), and that's... well, that's it.

I would have spent less time with 'the crazy', and more time 'pushing the story along'.

 

[TheYanger]

A character shows up 100 times over 7 seasons, everyone talks about him, but he never talks nor plays any critical role, isn't really funny.

It's just wasted potential.

TBH, it's even worse than that. If we take the time travel point into account that someone else is discussing with me... it's like DS9 goes out of the way to avoid moving it's story along, and tries to reach outside it's setting to make its episodes happen.

I'll just make the point with a question. Is DS9 and it's chosen suite of characters so boring that it has to go to great lengths to incorporate time travel, an alternate dimension, and arguably pointless backfiller to pad it's episodes list? I know that sounds heavy handed, and as if I hate the series (I don't, I like it), but if you take a look at the first 6 seasons, you basically had maybe 1 or 2 major story events (both mostly unresolved), and that's... well, that's it.

I would have spent less time with 'the crazy', and more time 'pushing the story along'.

He's in the fucking background! He's literally an extra that they kept using because a bar needs barflies, who was popular and became more than he ever was going to be. How can it be wasted potential, as if he's like looming over the whole show while we wait anticipating something. That's like saying the avengers sucked because the guy playing space invaders in the helicarrier didn't get an arc or major plot device.

 

[BorkBork]

DS9 is criticized for a lot of things, but I've never heard it said that it had a boring cast of characters.

The mundane is what roots DS9 and gives it a lot of its strength, rounds its characters into relatable people. No show with 176 episodes and 7 seasons can just be focused on the main narrative. Filler is essential. Now whether that filler is good or not, whether it adds to the depth of the universe or not, that's a separate discussion. I personally feels the main arc/filler ratio is pretty good, with episodes always buoyed by actors and writers who have firm grasps on character and universe.

 

[Spider from Mars]

I hope the new trek series is only 13 or so episodes a season. I love Star Trek dearly, but the amount of garbage filler episodes is too much.

 

[ChetWilson]

As I near the end of Season 7 of DS9... I really wish all the seasons prior had such unified, linked momentum as these final episodes do.

I regret the ~13 episodes of filler each 26 episode season had composed of "sisko has a problem, kira has a problem, quark has a problem, jadzea has a problem, obrien has a problem, dax has a problem, lil sisko or nog have a problem, bashir has a problem, odo is a selfish bitch and everyone needs to know it problem, ducat or garrak have a problem, the alternate dimension has a problem, time for time travel problem' that plagued seasons 1-5.

Might have actually given Babylon 5 an actual run for it's money and really sucks they didn't figure out a winning mechanism till it was too late.

 

[Aztechnology]

Oh man. Season 4 of DS9 has been awesome so far. I just watched the episode where Worf is put on trial and the episode preceding it where O'brien is "imprisoned" for twenty years. Both such cool episodes.

Also what I said before about Kira as I've watched the show has become less true. No other character has seen development anywhere near her character. I still think her religious beliefs are often at odds with her ideology so it's a bit silly sometimes. But she is a compelling character without question.

 

[Jackpot]

I just watched the episode where Worf is put on trial

I heavily disliked that one. Aside from bringing up "violent video games made him do it" it also argues that his inherent Klingon-ness is an argument against him, and that all Klingons have the same intrinsic character traits due to their genes.

 

[Aztechnology]

I heavily disliked that one. Aside from bringing up "violent video games made him do it" it also argues that his inherent Klingon-ness is an argument against him, and that all Klingons have the same intrinsic character traits due to their genes.

I enjoyed it because of the filming methods to be honest. I liked the perspective shots of the witnesses testimonies.

 

[TheYanger]

I heavily disliked that one. Aside from bringing up "violent video games made him do it" it also argues that his inherent Klingon-ness is an argument against him, and that all Klingons have the same intrinsic character traits due to their genes.

I mean, that is kind of how genetics work though. Whether it's right or wrong to bring that up is entirely upon the fictional Klingon brain.

 

[Jackpot]

I mean, that is kind of how genetics work though. Whether it's right or wrong to bring that up is entirely upon the fictional Klingon brain.

It opens the door to a species-ist view and completely ignores their actions as individuals. Essentially saying the dick of an ensign who hated Data for having command was right. The argument didn't even make sense within the Trek universe.

 

[TheYanger]

It opens the door to a species-ist view and completely ignores their actions as individuals. Essentially saying the dick of an ensign who hated Data for having command was right. The argument didn't even make sense within the Trek universe.

It's not speciest. If they're naturally predisposed towards aggression and violence that is absolutely something to consider in that circuimstance. It doesn't mean you can't argue that Worf isnt' that way, but it means it'd be an anomaly for him not to be. That's like saying don't assume that a human has an opposable thumb, genetically they mostly do and are going to barring something unusual.

 

[shauntu]

The best part of the episode for me, is when Sisko is convincing Worf to show leadership by showing up at the celebration for him, and when Worf shows that he realizes he did wrong, Sisko menaces Worf into complete submission and tells him that yes, he did indeed do wrong -- but at least he finally realizes it, and got lucky his primal instincts didn't lead to mass murder.

Worf after this episode is a changed Klingon.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

2.26:

Dominion may be more menacing than the Borg.

 

[DrForester]

The best part of the episode for me, is when Sisko is convincing Worf to show leadership by showing up at the celebration for him, and when Worf shows that he realizes he did wrong, Sisko menaces Worf into complete submission and tells him that yes, he did indeed do wrong -- but at least he finally realizes it, and got lucky his primal instincts didn't lead to mass murder.

Worf after this episode is a changed Klingon.

Worf has some great leadership moments in the show. One of my favorites is one that blasts a Star Trek trope. Episode Waltz has Worf commanding the Defiant as they search for Captain Sisko. Time runs our, they get new orders and Bashir tries the old "well, that transmission was so garbled who knows what our orders were" routine. Worf quickly stamps it out, as her orders were clear. Bashir objects, saying Worf's honor isn't worth the Captain's life. Without missing a beat, Worf just cooly orders Bashir off the bridge. Doesn't raise his voice, or go into the usual Klingon rage. Just a simple "You may leave the Bridge, Doctor"

 

[TheYanger]

2.26:

Dominion may be more menacing than the Borg.

It's definitely a good introduction, I don't think they can touch the borg in 'scare' factor overall, but I think that's largely because they do still have to function as a society, so they're a bit more multilayered compared to the zombie-like horde of the borg.

 

[Night Hunter]

2.26:

Dominion may be more menacing than the Borg.

If this is your reaction to 02x26 then godspeed

 

[Apt101]

I only ever liked The Next Generation and the new films. A few of the old films were OK too now that I think about it. I gave the most recent series a real try. Aside from the Vulcan woman being pretty entertaining and hot as the sun, it kind of sucked.

 

[butalala]

2.26:

Dominion may be more menacing than the Borg.

That I could experience it anew once more...

 

[shauntu]

Worf has some great leadership moments in the show. One of my favorites is one that blasts a Star Trek trope. Episode Waltz has Worf commanding the Defiant as they search for Captain Sisko. Time runs our, they get new orders and Bashir tries the old "well, that transmission was so garbled who knows what our orders were" routine. Worf quickly stamps it out, as her orders were clear. Bashir objects, saying Worf's honor isn't worth the Captain's life. Without missing a beat, Worf just cooly orders Bashir off the bridge. Doesn't raise his voice, or go into the usual Klingon rage. Just a simple "You may leave the Bridge, Doctor"

Yeah Worf really grew in his leadership abilities on DS9.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

If this is your reaction to 02x26 then godspeed

How could anyone have any other reaction?

It was one of the best eps of Star Trek ever in which almost every character gets a chance to shine.

I liked all of s2 and whoever said there's a bad stretch, I have no idea what they're talking about. I've loved every episode except one and it was that dumb gambling episode.

I just can't watch often because I'm busy.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

It's definitely a good introduction, I don't think they can touch the borg in 'scare' factor overall, but I think that's largely because they do still have to function as a society, so they're a bit more multilayered compared to the zombie-like horde of the borg.

Nope. Dominion can beam up all the way from the other side of the Wormhole. Borg as a whole are scary, but not individually. The Borg needed direct contact to get Intel on the federation. Dominion already had info. The TNG crew transports onto Borg ships multiple times and no one on the ship gives a shit about them. I feel like a Dominion would be far more merciless. Borg requires better tech. Dominion requires better tech and they're organic life forms (I'm not sure borg are no longer organic). Dominion doesn't give a single fuck and are willing to go further than Borg. Borg has rules. I don't think a Borg ship would kamikaze a Starfleet ship while they were retreating. Don't fuck with the Dominion is everything I got from that episode. The most ruthless villains Star Trek has ever had from my estimation.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

How could anyone have any other reaction?

It was one of the best eps of Star Trek ever in which almost every character gets a chance to shine.

I liked all of s2 and whoever said there's a bad stretch, I have no idea what they're talking about. I've loved every episode except one and it was that dumb gambling episode.

I just can't watch often because I'm busy.

Pretty sure Night Hunter is implying that if you liked that you'll love what's to come. And I agree.

Looking at Season Two eps, there were some standouts (particularly "The Wire","Cardassians", "Necessary Evil","Whispers" & "Blood Oath")
And some clunkers (“Melora”,“Second Sight”,“Rivals”,“The Alternate”,“Profit and Loss”)
Good season overall.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Pretty sure Night Hunter is implying that if you liked that you'll love what's to come. And I agree.

Looking at Season Two eps, there were some standouts (particularly "The Wire","Cardassians", "Necessary Evil","Whispers" & "Blood Oath")
And some clunkers (“Melora”,“Second Sight”,“Rivals”,“The Alternate”,“Profit and Loss”)
Good season overall.

I know what they meant. I'm only saying that it's such a good episode I have no idea how anyone could have any other reaction to it, which hints that not everyone feels the same way I do about the episode and not everyone likes the dominion war.

 

[Htown]

. Don't fuck with the Dominion is everything I got from that episode.

Congratulations, you learned the correct lesson from that episode.

ooooh I get chills just thinking about it

shit gets so real you won't believe it

 

[Sephzilla]

2.26:

Dominion may be more menacing than the Borg.

I think The Borg are still more menacing just due to how foreign and alien they feel compared to the rest of the Trek universe. The Dominion are a close second, though. Man, you're making me seriously think about starting up another DS9 run though.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Hell yes.

3.01

Boom! Bang! Smash! And fucking sneaking mission on a cloaked ship. Even the doctor packs a punch! No more hashing shit out on a stupid table TNG style. Fucking TOS PUNCHING ACTION.

 

[Htown]

I see you just met the Defiant

 

[Karu]

DS9 S1 & S2 as my first in depth contact with Star Trek already were amazing to me back then, but the season finale 2 was just all kinds of motherfucking hype. Couldn't believe what I saw, haha.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I think The Borg are still more menacing just due to how foreign and alien they feel compared to the rest of the Trek universe.

The Borg were a great concept and good antagonists at first. Really menacing. Then TNG went on to ruin them with the stupid-ass "I Borg" episode, and then later with the "Descent" two-parter. I could never enjoy the Borg as villains after that. Those episodes are criminally bad (IMO).

 

[Ophelion]

This thread is really making me feel the need to revisit DS9. I watched the first two seasons in their entirety as a kid, but slowly fell off the show as I got older. Happened partly because my tastes in fiction where changing at the time (for the worse, I assure you) and partly because the rest of my family was more into Babylon 5.

I think I dropped it entirely after season 3. I don't even remember why. I think maybe because we moved that year and just failed to keep up after that? I don't know. It was a long time ago.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I've been introducing my wife to Stat Trek. She wanted to start with Voyager because of a female captain, and I can't blame her, especially considering how sexist Gene was. She loved it for the most part and came to love Seven despite her initially being intended as eye candy.

Then we tried TNG, she couldn't do it. Too stale and inconsequential. She hates the episodic nature of it and I can't blame her. If I didn't watch it as a kid, TNG would be a real slog to get through.

DS9 has been real hit and miss, she hates Quark for being a sexist pig alongside the Ferengi being physically repulsive. She absolutely hates how Quark never has any lasting consequences for his actions. She loves Kira and Odo. She was initially repulsed at the idea of the Trills. She thinks that Benjamin's actor severely over acts. She likes O'Brien. She hasn't been enjoying the show overall yet, though we are only at 3x10. But she'll finish it.

She refuses to watch TOS and ENT, not that I blame her.

 

[Night Hunter]

How could anyone have any other reaction?

It was one of the best eps of Star Trek ever in which almost every character gets a chance to shine.

I liked all of s2 and whoever said there's a bad stretch, I have no idea what they're talking about. I've loved every episode except one and it was that dumb gambling episode.

I just can't watch often because I'm busy.

It is a great episode, I just meant if this is your reaction, brace yourself for what is to come. Shit is about to get realer.

I personally liked the Dominion much more than the Borg. The Jem Hadar had some absolutely fantasic episodes and Rocks & Shoals is one of the absolute GOATs if you ask me.

 

[Sephzilla]

The Borg were a great concept and good antagonists at first. Really menacing. Then TNG went on to ruin them with the stupid-ass "I Borg" episode, and then later with the "Descent" two-parter. I could never enjoy the Borg as villains after that. Those episodes are criminally bad (IMO).

I actually like I, Borg. It's a pretty solid episode that I think explores Picard's feelings on the Borg as well as giving us a sample of what happens to a Borg when it leaves the hivemind. I also feel it kind of executes the entire "Borg regaining it's identity" idea that led to Seven of Nine, except better than Seven of Nine. Descent isn't as good, I'll give you that one. Still I don't think TNG ruined The Borg, I think that happens in Voyager.

 

[melichrous]

Just read through the entirety of this thread, and it's made me want to watch DS9 again. Absolutely loved it, and I haven't watched it in ages.
That specific monologue in season 6 is probably the most memorable moment for me, interested to hear your reaction to it when you get to that point
Enjoy the rest of it!

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Whether or not Benjamin overacts he's still the best captain.

"THE PRICE IS TOO DAMN HIGH!"

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I actually like I, Borg. It's a pretty solid episode that I think explores Picard's feelings on the Borg as well as giving us a sample of what happens to a Borg when it leaves the hivemind. I also feel it kind of executes the entire "Borg regaining it's identity" idea that led to Seven of Nine, except better than Seven of Nine. Descent isn't as good, I'll give you that one. Still I don't think TNG ruined The Borg, I think that happens in Voyager.

"Ruining" the borg is an odd thing, because they were changed almost every episode since their first appearance right up to First Contact - and even their debut was a change from the insects originally intended to be the Borg in "Conspiracy".

Personally, I really liked the indefatigable horde of locusts hungry for tech Q-Who presented us - It also had that really interesting line from Guinan at the end of the episode, where she says:

"Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them. But for now, for right now - you're just raw material to them."

Which suggests that there was more to them, and that maybe it was originally envisaged that races could have alliances or treaties with them. I always thought it a pity we never saw that direction of the Borg fleshed out, and they ended up going down the assimilation/queen route.

 

[Box of Kittens]

2.26:

Dominion may be more menacing than the Borg.

It's a great episode and I love the way they set it up with all these little things throughout the season. The Dominion plays an important role in the plot of "Rules of Acquisition" but they're mostly talked about than and you can be forgiven for thinking they won't be important since it's a Ferengi episode. After that there's a mention here or there, just enough so that if you're paying attention you might start to realize that they will be important. Then you get to the end of the season and you get to see just how big of a deal they really are.

I've always liked Season 2 but the more I think about it the more I'm appreciating just how good it really was, especially that last run of episodes. It's too bad so many people ignore everything that happens before Season 4.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

It's a great episode and I love the way they set it up with all these little things throughout the season. The Dominion plays an important role in the plot of "Rules of Acquisition" but they're mostly talked about than and you can be forgiven for thinking they won't be important since it's a Ferengi episode. After that there's a mention here or there, just enough so that if you're paying attention you might start to realize that they will be important. Then you get to the end of the season and you get to see just how big of a deal they really are.

I've always liked Season 2 but the more I think about it the more I'm appreciating just how good it really was, especially that last run of episodes. It's too bad so many people ignore everything that happens before Season 4.

The build up was nothing short of perfect. Probably the best overall season of Star Trek I've ever seen in terms of writing, character arcs, and storylines.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I also feel it kind of executes the entire "Borg regaining it's identity" idea that led to Seven of Nine, except better than Seven of Nine.

My big problem with the ep is that it attempts to "humanize" the borg. Thus they go from a mysterious, scary, dangerous threat that cannot be reasoned with to just another less-threatening alien faction. I also hate the part in the episode where they say that Hugh could be sent back as a weapon, and of course Picard refuses to do so, instead sending him back hoping that a shred of humanity went back with him to "infect' the others. I find that very lame. For me that ep basically removed the "teeth" from the Borg threat and from then on when they showed up in the shows, I no longer had that "Oh shit!" fear reaction. Descent only cemented that feeling. First Contact was the only Borg-related thing they did after "I Borg" that I enjoyed because they were back to being somewhat scary. Even then, though I liked Alice Krige's acting, I thought the very human-like, emotional Borg Queen was a betrayal of the very concept of the Borg that I enjoyed in the earlier TNG episodes.

 

[Box of Kittens]

I liked all of s2 and whoever said there's a bad stretch, I have no idea what they're talking about. I've loved every episode except one and it was that dumb gambling episode.

You're probably thinking of me. I'll defend the view, though with the qualification that I wouldn't consider it a bad stretch per se, just a relatively weak one. I'd say the opening stretch through "Necessary Evil" and the closing stretch starting with "Blood Oath" are as close to flawless as you'll ever find Trek to be. Really the only episode in either stretch that I'm not a fan of would be "Melora," and I still find that one to be OK.

The stretch in the middle, however, I find most of the episodes to be uneven. They'll work on some levels while falling short on others. There might be some good character development but coupled with a boring plot, or an intriguing idea with flawed execution. I wouldn't call any of those episodes outright bad, and there's even a few that are all-around great (e.g. "Whispers").

In any event, overall Season 2 was a huge (and largely unappreciated) success.

 

[Octavianus]

The Borg were a great concept and good antagonists at first. Really menacing. Then TNG went on to ruin them with the stupid-ass "I Borg" episode, and then later with the "Descent" two-parter. I could never enjoy the Borg as villains after that. Those episodes are criminally bad (IMO).

I like those episodes. It shows what happens to drones when they're severed from the collective. They're no longer borg from that point on.
What (partially) ruined them for me is the borg queen.
I liked them when they felt totally alien because they were nothing more than one hive mind, a single collective without any kind of individuality that was driven by a need to assimilate everything in it's path. And the idea of having a queen at the head of all that, an individual, diminished that sense of 'otherness' for me.

And you know, then Voyager came along..

 

[DrForester]

I-Borg was an interesting look at a Borg cut from the collective.

Descent wasn't a great episode, but as the episode is specifically framed in a way that the Borg in it are just Borg from Hugh's Cube, I don't really see it as bringing down the Borg. it was an isolated group.

 

[TheYanger]

Nope. Dominion can beam up all the way from the other side of the Wormhole. Borg as a whole are scary, but not individually. The Borg needed direct contact to get Intel on the federation. Dominion already had info. The TNG crew transports onto Borg ships multiple times and no one on the ship gives a shit about them. I feel like a Dominion would be far more merciless. Borg requires better tech. Dominion requires better tech and they're organic life forms (I'm not sure borg are no longer organic). Dominion doesn't give a single fuck and are willing to go further than Borg. Borg has rules. I don't think a Borg ship would kamikaze a Starfleet ship while they were retreating. Don't fuck with the Dominion is everything I got from that episode. The most ruthless villains Star Trek has ever had from my estimation.

but that's WHY the borg are scary. You can beam aboard and they don't give a shit because they don't have to. You're an ant to them, and like a hydra you can cut down one cube and you'll just invite 2 more to come and fuck your shit up.

The Dominion are more like if you threw the Klingons and the Romulans into one empire and made them wholly ruthless and imperialistic. Just these extremely cunning and scary mental giants with an elite fighting force all of whom are dedicated to controlling everything.

 

[shauntu]

Nope. Dominion can beam up all the way from the other side of the Wormhole. Borg as a whole are scary, but not individually. The Borg needed direct contact to get Intel on the federation. Dominion already had info. The TNG crew transports onto Borg ships multiple times and no one on the ship gives a shit about them. I feel like a Dominion would be far more merciless. Borg requires better tech. Dominion requires better tech and they're organic life forms (I'm not sure borg are no longer organic). Dominion doesn't give a single fuck and are willing to go further than Borg. Borg has rules. I don't think a Borg ship would kamikaze a Starfleet ship while they were retreating. Don't fuck with the Dominion is everything I got from that episode. The most ruthless villains Star Trek has ever had from my estimation.

Best part is, as the Dominion is explored going forward, they gain a lot of depth and individuality both in the different races that make up the Dominion, but also individual members of those races. And yet, they still never step back from being both ruthless and the greatest villains of Star Trek.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

3.03

Interesting how the after math with the Dominion is affecting DS9 but the Quark storyline was wtf. I wish this episode was entirely about Keiko and Miles. Best Star Trek couple ever.

3.04

What the Christ. This episode is boring as shit. DOMINION. PLZ.

 

[DrForester]

3.03

Interesting how the after math with the Dominion is affecting DS9 but the Quark storyline was wtf. I wish this episode was entirely about Keiko and Miles. Best Star Trek couple ever.

I love House of Quark. Shows more diversity in the Klingons.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Can I just say how much I hated the ending to "The Search, Part II?" You could see the reset coming from how they'd painted themselves into a corner and do I ever hate the reset button.