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My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
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alternatively, we could just disagree with your assessment.esquire said:
While i wont disagree that an open and vocal culture of acceptance within a community of peers has attracted a large portion of the fanbase, i disagree that the show would not have otherwise stood on its own merits within the usual crowd of enthusiasts.
popularity is a reason to be initially attracted to the show but i don't think its why its stuck with so many people. lots of things can become popular on shock value [in this case, the mlp legacy], but that's not reason enough to stick around. Strike witches exploded out of the niche anime crowd on sheer shock value, but that's all it really had going for it. nobody stuck to strike witches for the plot or characters [except hartmann ofcourse] and most importantly, although its internet popularity was through the roof, its viewership was inconsistent. it just wasn't good enough to solidify a fanbase outside of the diehard enthusiasts, it was a show that just got popular on shock value and became a meme because 'everyone else was doing it so i wont be mocked'.
my little pony was a similar circumstance where at face value it seems something worthy of little more than open derision amongst a mature crowd, but it actually managed to secure and expand its fanbase WITHOUT building on that shock value. friendship is magic does nothing to live up to the stereotypes of previous my little pony products and it is those stereotypes that contrasted against the demographic enough to create the 'brony' culture in the first place.
so going back to appeal to those stereotypes as the source of the shows burgeoning popularity despite their relative nonexistence in the show itself seems like an opinion that can only be formed by watching and reading into the community and not the source material its built around.
Foxix said:
Well if you are a fan of animation you would know that there are a lot of instances in the past where a show finds an unintentional audience (I am a male so I might be biased in noting that it usually seems to be men enjoying things that would otherwise be described as "feminine"). Something similar happened with Sailor Moon, something similar happened with Power Puff Girls and something similar happened with Lazy Town (though not animation, it can certainly be considered under the umbrella of children's entertainment) - the biggest outlier is SpongeBob Squarepants and to a lesser extent Invader Zim - just remembered that something similar also happened with JEM. MLP is interesting because it's happening at a time where social media is so prevalent that it's relatively easy to find fans of the show on the internet. You "bronies" are way too defensive about your like of the show which is funny to me. It's not that big of a deal, really.
Ultimoo said:
LOL, so insecure. Aw man, you need a hug. Pony hugs!
Jintor said:
It's pretty easy to troll male My Little Pony fans because of the male insecurity over liking a "girls" show. The horror.
Pandaman said:
I don't think MLP has been around long enough for you to make the claim that people are sticking around. For example, I never actually watched the show until recently despite knowing about it's popularity on the internet (plus, on an unrelated note, I don't feel okay watching the show on YouTube commercial free where I don't "pay" anything for it via advertising or a cable subscription). I'd say it's popularity is still on the upward swing and a year from now you will know who the actual fans are and who the "hipster" fans are.
Ultimoo said:
I would argue that as long as people watch the show it doesn't matter why they like it.
Totally Spies! is the other one I couldn't remember. I liked Totally Spies, and look, I'm not freaking out if someone questions my masculinity for liking a cartoon with girl characters!
I don't really care one way or another about all the trolls and their weak attempts at trolling us, I think it's actually kind of cute. I don't think I've seen an argument yet regarding the actual quality of the show, just a bunch of ad hominem nonsense and OMG UR WATCHING PONIES LOL
Pandaman said:
Pandaman said:
I just want to defend Lazytown by saying that the songs on the show were actually really good.
The Most Famous Example.
I'd dance to this shit.
Seriously. Quality fucking dance songs.
Although I'm not going to lie and say that irony wasn't a big part of it's popularity.
The comparison to LazyTown isn't completely off the mark. Both shows became memes because of the humor inherent in something good coming out of something that we'd otherwise have the lowest of the low expectations for.
The difference here is that LazyTown didn't have good characters or good plots or anything like that. The quality came 100% through the musical segments. My Little Pony is a good all-around cartoon. I would not be able to stomach watching a full LazyTown episode from beginning to end. But I can easily do so with MLP, and enjoy myself.
Esquire, my thoughts about this show were not so dissimilar to yours that long ago. I watched a few episodes and considered my curiosity satiated and came to very similar conclusions. But I gave the show a second shot and now here I am, sporting a pony avatar.
esquire said:
That's nonsensical because no one had long discussions about the quality of episodes in Lazytown, nor was there a huge real fanbase of people working hard on actual artwork, t-shirts, models, etc to express their love for the show. Lazytown was something everyone was interested in making fun of because it had really crazy scenes which made for excellent animated gifs and little else.
It's obvious that the people who stick with MLP actually watch the show and care about the characters. Even if some of them are doing it just because it's the in-thing now, it's not the same as Lazytown at all. I see the fanbase here as no different from people who are really into Lost, 24, Twilight, Harry Potter, etc. It's actually popular in a meaningful way. That doesn't mean everyone has to like it, or that it's appealing to everyone, but let's not disrespect the people who do.
ZealousD said:
I agree, I mean I don't think it's a "good" show (I can get into why but it's totally off topic) but it's entertaining and cute.
And yes Lazy Town had some good songs!
duckroll said:
But that's nonsensical to compare MLP to those shows. It's one thing to say you like MLP, it's another thing to say it's on par with LOST, 24, etc. I get you guys like the show, but you're getting a little carried away.
lol overly defensive. You say something I think is absurd and you counter "stop getting so offended," if you wanted to talk reasonably you wouldn't insist on reinforcing the fact that you think someone is being oversensitive or being offended by their lack of masculinity, how does that even add anything to the conversation, when you constantly bring it up? Does that somehow invalidate my point?esquire said:
Myke Greywolf
Ambassador of Goodwill
Yeah, the Lost finale is way worse than anything we can imagine MLP:FiM's finale ever being.esquire said:
People like what they like.
Condescending ad hominem marks the line where this whole exchange goes from a legitimate conversation to blatant trolling. This is the last reaction that you're getting out of me.esquire said:
Have another one of my awful drawings, going to try more of this later, drawing something in 10mins to practice, as well as only faces for now.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p220/Menelven/MLP stuff/ajharmonica.png
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p220/Menelven/MLP stuff/ajharmonica.png
Ultimoo said:
But sorry, you aren't really the person I would choose to get into a reasonable debate over this show because you are too emotional over it. Other people have brought up good points, you haven't.
esquire said:
With the exception lazytown most of those developed they're popularity based solely on the quality of series. I know, at least in my case that I grew up watching Sailor Moon despite me being outside of its intended audience, however that was also a time when I had no access to internet and no one I knew as a child watched it either. I will agree that it is very interesting to watch this sort fandom blossom in real time as a result of social media. I don't think most ever got enjoyment lazy town, and I'm not really acquainted with the series as a meme or it's fanbase(if any.)
I'm failing to see where you're going with this. That being said your argument for the most part is heavily circular. We can state the reason we enjoy something and you can state that you understand that however, then go on to state incorrect reasons we enjoy the series. Then any attempt at rectifying your misunderstanding of the fanbase is shrugged off telling us a majority of the fans don't think the same way/we don't fully understand the true appeal of what we're enjoying. Regardless of any evidence and or staying power the property could possibly show it's unlikely that we'll ever get anywhere.
sure i can, because you were nice enough to provide lazy town as a comparison; a show that's popularity literally lived off of one song about baking cake. i dare you to find anything[i/] through dramatica/macrochan/knowyourmeme/4chan/etc from lazytown that didn't happen in the first 12 episodes. and remember, this is a show that was discovered years after it started airing, so this isnt due to a lack of material.esquire said:
lazytowns modern day equivalent would be:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/gimme-pizza
so whats the cut off here, because it seems somewhat arbitrary.
i never finished watching lost, so am i a hipster?
i watched 4 seasons of dexter, so was i real fan or just a hipster?
come to think of it i haven't watched an episode of sienfield in awhile either...
Once again, you attempt to invalidate my points because you find me too emotional? How can you even sense emotion over text? You're quite the psychic. Someone can bring up the exact same point as me but the fact that I said it doesn't make it any less of a valid statement. You're really reaching to avoid arguing.esquire said:
Myke Greywolf
Ambassador of Goodwill
Is this Applejack playing the harmonica?Menmanelf said:
You guys have no trouble shrugging off blatant trolls like Jenga. Don't start getting pissy just because somebody starts making an actual argument.
You guys have to understand that Esquire is still on the "outside" and so there's still a lot he doesn't quite get about this show yet. His perspective is completely understandable and normal. True, that doesn't mean he's right, but he's at least more open-minded than you guys are giving him credit for.
Well geez. Are you saying it isn't? Because it totally is. It goes deeper than that, sure. But it is totally an ironic meme.
You guys have to understand that Esquire is still on the "outside" and so there's still a lot he doesn't quite get about this show yet. His perspective is completely understandable and normal. True, that doesn't mean he's right, but he's at least more open-minded than you guys are giving him credit for.
Ultimoo said:
Well geez. Are you saying it isn't? Because it totally is. It goes deeper than that, sure. But it is totally an ironic meme.
ZealousD said:
Well, he's stated earlier in this thread that he's actually seen some of the episodes, which in my opinion is way further than most people go.
Only time will really tell if the show has any longevity. If this thread is still alive and kicking well into summer all the way into the next season in fall (supposedly), we'll have our answer.
ZealousD said:
What good points has he actually made? MLP is a cartoon like any other cartoon, but he insists on finding reasons why people like it besides good animation and a likable cast. And his rebuttals consist of "don't care, like what you want" and "don't get so mad" so I'm not sure how much of an actual argument that is. Just because he can attempt to eloquently mask his trolling behind walls of text doesn't make it any less trollish.
Myke Greywolf
Ambassador of Goodwill
It certainly is a meme, but the "irony" is just a paper-thin cover double-serving as a lure, under which the un-ironic fandom has their un-ironic fun.ZealousD said:
I had to squint and give it a little thought before I came to that conclusion. How is the tablet working for you?Menmanelf said:
Negator said:
I'm actually kind of hoping we get a second thread for the second season. Unlikely we'll reach OT2 by then but... I dunno it would definitely be pretty great to have a REAL OP and that would maybe help people realize we're actually watching the show rather than people just assuming it's just a meme thread. And I've already started collecting conversation and reaction quotes about the show from this thread so hopefully it goes somewhere.
Ultimoo said:What good points has he actually made? MLP is a cartoon like any other cartoon, but he insists on finding reasons why people like it besides good animation and a likable cast. And his rebuttals consist of "don't care, like what you want" and "don't get so mad" so I'm not sure how much of an actual argument that is. Just because he can attempt to eloquently mask his trolling behind walls of text doesn't make it any less trollish.
Essentially why I'm going to just try and not to pay him much mind anymore. Like I said earlier his arguments are generally very circular and heavily dependent on him shrugging off a legitimate fanbase. It more than likely won't get anyone anywhere so why bother?
no, it was built on an ironic meme.ZealousD said:
shows do not build success around attraction to circumstances of the fanbase or mere premise.
battlefield earth had a good premise.
heroes had a good premise.
lazy town had the oddity of the fanbase.
i can list off a thousand animes that had similar fanbase circumstances to lazytown.
thing is, none of these shows actually had any consistent staying power. people werent willing to watch 24 episodes soloy to be ironic or because the pilot promised more and you just hoped they'd eventually deliver. geez, if people did nothing would ever be cancelled. media is way to over saturated and people have much too little time on their hands for that.
Ultimoo said:
That the show's popularity can be largely attributed to the irony of the whole deal. And that is very much true. Granted, this is not a new point. It's certainly one I made much earlier in this thread when I was much more skeptical.
But you need more than pure irony to create a meme. Lazytown didn't become a meme just because it was ironic. I fucking have "Always a Way" on loop right now because of this thread.
Myke Greywolf said:
I don't know about you, but I'm having both ironic and un-ironic fun here. I like to make the point that Fridays are "motherfucking" pony days, after all.
Havn't really had a chance to use it since I did that Twilight drawing. That was the first since then, and knocked it out in under 7min, so wasn't expecting anything too good, but from my art class found I improved best when doing speedy drawings than slow ones, so going to do a few this afternoon I think, mainly focusing on faces for now.
i think many of us are enterpreting his point to be that the show does not have any staying power beyond that initial popular attraction.ZealousD said:
since the show does nothing to actually further that irony by appealing to classic my little pony stereotypes, i dont really see how that could be possible.
Menmanelf said:
Cool beans, and yeah I find the same is generally true for me too. When I spend too much time trying to hammer out details I tend to get proportions and all sort of other things WAY off. Generally quick scribbles and line work is more fun and sometimes and a great way to get started and get focused on providing more detail. Also I really like your AJ and think it looks great <3
Myke Greywolf
Ambassador of Goodwill
Yeah, I'll confess on double-dipping on both aspects of it. There's something inherently funny about stripping a little of the innocence out of the show, and sharing the laughter with the people who can appreciate it.ZealousD said:
Go too far with your innocence-stripping and I'll rip your fucking throat with my teeth, though.
Myke Greywolf said:
Right. I think my current avatar is a great representation of the idea too. Lots of people go with the innocent or cute avatars. I go with the one of Spike gagging about how sappy a moment has gotten. Even the show's creators know they get pretty cheesy at times.
esquire said:
I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all. I'm talking about how the fanbase reacts to something, and why they do. MLP is a popular show because people like it. It's not a popular show because people want to make fun of it.
OMG Aero said:
I liked parts of it, but the sum of the parts was very lacking imo. It felt like an episode that had a few good ideas and a few mediocre ones, tied together by an unconvincing and rather meh narrative frame.
Foxix said:
Well I think for anything to be enjoyed there has to be some social consensus that it is "okay" to like it.
This is a horrible example but I'm going to use it because otherwise you will never understand what I'm getting at... if I enjoy hunting and I happen to like specifically hunting baby deer society at large might not agree with it. People would say, why don't you hunt adult deer? There are plenty of those and it's not as ethically dubious! But I don't want to hunt adult deer, I like hunting baby deer. I'm all alone in this in my home town, but when I go on the internet I find that there are other people who like hunting baby deer as well! We all agree that the meat tastes better and they are easier to kill for amateur hunters, etc. etc. whatever. Now my point is, had I not found the baby deer killing support group I might start to think, gee, maybe there is something wrong with me and maybe I shouldn't be hunting baby deer. The fact that there are other people that do it makes it okay.
Like I said, horrible example, but that's the best I could do without touching on actual controversial subject and going way off topic.
My Little Pony is not exactly what you would describe as a masculine show, yes? Do you at least agree on that point? When this thread started, I can't remember the original title but the gist of the OP was something like, "I am less of a man for liking this show!" The first couple of pages were people kinda making fun of the OP and people wondering what the hell My Little Pony was (uh, that show from the 80's??). Then as time went on more people came out admitting they liked the show and were proud to watch it (at least here on NeoGAF, this was also coupled with animated avatars from the show). Then maybe around the same time as the show gained some level of acceptance on GAF, this became the official thread for the show. Now people discuss the show openly and enjoy some level of comfort knowing that no one is really going to make fun of them for liking the show despite the fact that the show still hasn't strayed from it's feminine roots (I wasn't making fun of you for liking the show if that's what you are/were thinking - when I came in here my remark was about how this show's popularity reminded me of another show - maybe Lazy Town wasn't the best example but the point is the same with any number of children's shows that enjoyed popularity outside of their core audience). This "acceptance" of the show is what I'm talking about when I say you like it because it's "popular." If people made fun of you for it, maybe you wouldn't be so open about your enjoyment of the show. If people in real life beat you up for liking it, you wouldn't say you liked it in real life (I don't know, do you?). We are all socially conditioned to like certain things and straying outside of those confines can get someone branded as a "werido." The fact that the internet and social media are so prevalent today and that it's so easy to connect with other people over a wide range of interests makes it very much "okay" to like a show like this even if some people may like it "ironically." It is ironic to say this on a video game forum, because there was a time where video games might have fallen under this category too. I'm not sure how clear I'm being as I probably went on longer than I should have, but my point is that something has to be socially acceptable for people to admit that they like it and I'd say that MLP has crossed that threshold of social acceptance because you "bronies" are clearly very defensive over the very questioning of this phenomena at all.
I've missed a lot of replies because I was typing this out as incoherent as it may be, but as to the question of the shows staying power, I personally don't think this show will be that popular a year from now (I feel that is generous but I'm saying a year because I'm sure there will be hype whenever the next season starts). I just think the internet and social media move too fast and something else will come along that steals attention from the viral aspect of this show's marketing; also, the characters won't have the same impact over time because there won't be a lot of evolution in the story telling (all the episodes will start to be the same). I'd be happy to be wrong though but as far as I know most of the fans of this show are "older" kids and I'm not sure if actual children watch the show (I call it the Invader Zim syndrome - and I actually believe older people are more fickle about animation than children).
I actually really like animation (and one of the things I really like about MLP is the animation technique they use), but I refrain from discussing it on the internet because essentially any discussion that goes against the grain gets a hostile reaction [i.e. the last two pages].
esquire said:
You said nothing in there about insecurity. Just "Why so defensive against my withering scorn?"
This is patently untrue. People like a lot of things that it is 'socially unacceptable' to like (some people even like things that it is illegal to like).
That said, if I'm understanding you correctly you're essentially saying "Isn't it amazing that people have found that other people like the show and that therefore they feel alright in expressing that they, too, like the show?" but you somehow managed to crosswire that sentiment with words like "obsession" and "you bronies" and other ways of looking-down-your-nose-at-us. You might perhaps see why we have had this... hostile reaction.
Jintor said:
No it's not. Those people are labeled as "weirdos" and are outcasts of mainstream society. Are you now going to argue that MLP isn't mainstream even though it's all over the internet?
Everything else you said, that's your own insecurity that you haven't gotten over. Nothing to do with anything I said and if you think that, you are reading far too much into my flippant remarks towards certain posters.
Internet popularity =/= wider society, right? MLP may be mainstream in internet terms but does that mean there's a social consensus that it's alright to like it? Only in certain social spheres, I suppose.
Sure, I'm just reading into my own insecurities, nothing to do with what you say at all.
Sure, I'm just reading into my own insecurities, nothing to do with what you say at all.
im saying there's a disconnect when you accuse people riding out mainstream fads of being hipsters.esquire said:
the disconnect being the definition of the word.
Its almost like you used the word for lack of anything more specific and equally disagreeable.
and that's just adorable.
Jintor said:
The way I see it, some people bring up good points and deserve a good response other people bring nothing but insults and are brushed off with a flippant remark.
Pandaman said:
I'm still not sure what this even means. I don't think I'm the one that brought up the "ironic" or hipster aspect of liking this show but I addressed it nonetheless...
Mechanical Snowman said:
Uh you guys keep insulting me and mischaracterizing my position so I'm responding to those insults. Am I not allowed to defend myself?
Mechanical Snowman
Member
Seriously.Jintor said:
Esquire I don't get you; you started off being condescending and then calling the people who argued against you defensive and insecure. Then you made a great post that wasn't assholish and you clearly put a lot of effort into making your argument coherent. Now it seems like you're going back to trying to get a rise out of people.
WHICH IS IT??!
Edit:
Ah. It's a cycle though, pretty sure if you weren't trying to be a little patronising to begin with, people would be much more likely to debate you properly.esquire said:
I don't actually have much to say about your point about "More people admitting to liking it because on the internet other people also admit to liking it" because, well, yeah. That's the internet. That's true. The stuff about whether or not it'll last, all subjective, so no real arguements from me because I doubt I'd be able to change your mind on that (and more to the point, I don't particularly care).
But when you continually call people insecure, or insult people and then call them 'defensive' for... well... defending themselves, or tell people that 'they need to learn to internet'... that's just you. Being a dick. For no reason.
But when you continually call people insecure, or insult people and then call them 'defensive' for... well... defending themselves, or tell people that 'they need to learn to internet'... that's just you. Being a dick. For no reason.
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