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National debt grows $1 million a minute

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goodcow

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_go_ot/nation_in_debt_4

National debt grows $1 million a minute
By TOM RAUM, Associated Press WriterMon Dec 3, 6:55 AM ET

Like a ticking time bomb, the national debt is an explosion waiting to happen. It's expanding by about $1.4 billion a day — or nearly $1 million a minute.

What's that mean to you?

It means almost $30,000 in debt for each man, woman, child and infant in the United States.

Even if you've escaped the recent housing and credit crunches and are coping with rising fuel prices, you may still be headed for economic misery, along with the rest of the country. That's because the government is fast straining resources needed to meet interest payments on the national debt, which stands at a mind-numbing $9.13 trillion.

And like homeowners who took out adjustable-rate mortgages, the government faces the prospect of seeing this debt — now at relatively low interest rates — rolling over to higher rates, multiplying the financial pain.

So long as somebody is willing to keep loaning the U.S. government money, the debt is largely out of sight, out of mind.

But the interest payments keep compounding, and could in time squeeze out most other government spending — leading to sharply higher taxes or a cut in basic services like Social Security and other government benefit programs. Or all of the above.

A major economic slowdown, as some economists suggest may be looming, could hasten the day of reckoning.

The national debt — the total accumulation of annual budget deficits — is up from $5.7 trillion when President Bush took office in January 2001 and it will top $10 trillion sometime right before or right after he leaves in January 2009.

That's $10,000,000,000,000.00, or one digit more than an odometer-style "national debt clock" near New York's Times Square can handle. When the privately owned automated clock was activated in 1989, the national debt was $2.7 trillion.

It only gets worse.

Over the next 25 years, the number of Americans aged 65 and up is expected to almost double. The work population will shrink and more and more baby boomers will be drawing Social Security and Medicare benefits, putting new demands on the government's resources.

These guaranteed retirement and health benefit programs now make up the largest component of federal spending. Defense is next. And moving up fast in third place is interest on the national debt, which totaled $430 billion last year.

Aggravating the debt picture: the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimates could cost $2.4 trillion over the next decade

Despite vows in both parties to restrain federal spending, the national debt as a percentage of the U.S. Gross Domestic Product has grown from about 35 percent in 1975 to around 65 percent today. By historical standards, it's not proportionately as high as during World War II — when it briefly rose to 120 percent of GDP, but it's a big chunk of liability.

"The problem is going forward," said David Wyss, chief economist at Standard and Poors, a major credit-rating agency.

"Our estimate is that the national debt will hit 350 percent of the GDP by 2050 under unchanged policy. Something has to change, because if you look at what's going to happen to expenditures for entitlement programs after us baby boomers start to retire, at the current tax rates, it doesn't work," Wyss said.

With national elections approaching, candidates of both parties are talking about fiscal discipline and reducing the deficit and accusing the other of irresponsible spending. But the national debt itself — a legacy of overspending dating back to the American Revolution — receives only occasional mention.

Who is loaning Washington all this money?

Ordinary investors who buy Treasury bills, notes and U.S. savings bonds, for one. Also it is banks, pension funds, mutual fund companies and state, local and increasingly foreign governments. This accounts for about $5.1 trillion of the total and is called the "publicly held" debt. The remaining $4 trillion is owed to Social Security and other government accounts, according to the Treasury Department, which keeps figures on the national debt down to the penny on its Web site.

Some economists liken the government's plight to consumers who spent like there was no tomorrow — only to find themselves maxed out on credit cards and having a hard time keeping up with rising interest payments.

"The government is in the same predicament as the average homeowner who took out an adjustable mortgage," said Stanley Collender, a former congressional budget analyst and now managing director at Qorvis Communications, a business consulting firm.

Much of the recent borrowing has been accomplished through the selling of shorter-term Treasury bills. If these loans roll over to higher rates, interest payments on the national debt could soar. Furthermore, the decline of the dollar against other major currencies is making Treasury securities less attractive to foreigners — even if they remain one of the world's safest investments.

For now, large U.S. trade deficits with much of the rest of the world work in favor of continued foreign investment in Treasuries and dollar-denominated securities. After all, the vast sums Americans pay — in dollars — for imported goods has to go somewhere. But that dynamic could change.

"The first day the Chinese or the Japanese or the Saudis say, `we've bought enough of your paper,' then the debt — whatever level it is at that point — becomes unmanageable," said Collender.

A recent comment by a Chinese lawmaker suggesting the country should buy more euros instead of dollars helped send the Dow Jones plunging more than 300 points.

The dollar is down about 35 percent since the end of 2001 against a basket of major currencies.

Foreign governments and investors now hold some $2.23 trillion — or about 44 percent — of all publicly held U.S. debt. That's up 9.5 percent from a year earlier.

Japan is first with $586 billion, followed by China ($400 billion) and Britain ($244 billion). Saudi Arabia and other oil-exporting countries account for $123 billion, according to the Treasury.

"Borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars from China and OPEC puts not only our future economy, but also our national security, at risk. It is critical that we ensure that countries that control our debt do not control our future," said Sen. George Voinovich of Ohio, a Republican budget hawk.

Of all federal budget categories, interest on the national debt is the one the president and Congress have the least control over. Cutting payments would amount to default, something Washington has never done.

Congress must from time to time raise the debt limit — sort of like a credit card maximum — or the government would be unable to borrow any further to keep it operating and to pay additional debt obligations.

The Democratic-led Congress recently did just that, raising the ceiling to $9.82 trillion as the former $8.97 trillion maximum was about to be exceeded. It was the fifth debt-ceiling increase since Bush became president in 2001.

Democrats are blaming the runup in deficit spending on Bush and his Republican allies who controlled Congress for the first six years of his presidency. They criticize him for resisting improvements in health care, education and other vital areas while seeking nearly $200 billion in new Iraq and Afghanistan war spending.

"We pay in interest four times more than we spend on education and four times what it will cost to cover 10 million children with health insurance for five years," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "That's fiscal irresponsibility."

Republicans insist congressional Democrats are the irresponsible ones. Bush has reinforced his call for deficit reduction with vetoes and veto threats and cites a looming "train wreck" if entitlement programs are not reined in.

Yet his efforts two years ago to overhaul Social Security had little support, even among fellow Republicans.

The deficit only reflects the gap between government spending and tax revenues for one year. Not exactly how a family or a business keeps its books.

Even during the four most recent years when there was a budget surplus, 1998-2001, the national debt ranged between $5.5 trillion and $5.8 trillion.

As in trying to pay off a large credit-card balance by only making minimum payments, the overall debt might be next to impossible to chisel down appreciably, regardless of who is in the White House or which party controls Congress, without major spending cuts, tax increases or both.

"The basic facts are a matter of arithmetic, not ideology," said Robert L. Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, a bipartisan group that advocates eliminating federal deficits.

There's little dispute that current fiscal policies are unsustainable, he said. "Yet too few of our elected leaders in Washington are willing to acknowledge the seriousness of the long-term fiscal problem and even fewer are willing to put it on the political agenda."

Polls show people don't like the idea of saddling future generations with debt, but proposing to pay down the national debt itself doesn't move the needle much.

"People have a tendency to put some of these longer term problems out of their minds because they're so pressed with more imminent worries, such as wages and jobs and income inequality," said pollster Andrew Kohut of the nonpartisan Pew Research Center.

Texas billionaire Ross Perot made paying down the national debt a central element of his quixotic third-party presidential bid in 1992. The national debt then stood at $4 trillion and Perot displayed charts showing it would soar to $8 trillion by 2007 if left unchecked. He was about a trillion low.

Not long ago, it actually looked like the national debt could be paid off — in full. In the late 1990s, the bipartisan Congressional Budget Office projected a surplus of a $5.6 trillion over ten years — and calculated the debt would be paid off as early as 2006.

Former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan recently wrote that he was "stunned" and even troubled by such a prospect. Among other things, he worried about where the government would park its surplus if Treasury bonds went out of existence because they were no longer needed.

Not to worry. That surplus quickly evaporated.

Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com, said he's more concerned that interest on the national debt will become unsustainable than he is that foreign countries will dump their dollar holdings — something that would undermine the value of their own vast holdings. "We're going to have to shell out a lot of resources to make those interest payments. There's a very strong argument as to why it's vital that we address our budget issues before they get measurably worse," Zandi said.

"Of course, that's not going to happen until after the next president is in the White House," he added.
 

HomShaBom

Banned
Cool another one of these threads.

Let's see:
-Bush sucks
-America sucks
-Economy sucks, dollar lol
-War in Iraq/Afghanistan

what I miss
 

Gaborn

Member
Karma Kramer said:
hardly... bush is practically a democrat when it comes to spending. He is certainly not small government.

What's the Republican Congress's (except for my boy Paul, Jeff Flake, and one or two others) excuse?
 

Zyzyxxz

Member
So in the time it took me to post this message the debt grew by 20 million USD...


Damn I could have used that to build a hosue of Jello and by science make it so it never melt.
 

Phoenix

Member
HomShaBom said:
Cool another one of these threads.

Let's see:
-Bush sucks
-America sucks
-Economy sucks, dollar lol
-War in Iraq/Afghanistan

what I miss


Nothing, your comment is a chilling reminder of why Americans don't care that the country is going down the shitter.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I piss wine that sells for more than $1 million. So I'm doing my part.
 
HomShaBom said:
Nope, we don't care. Not at all.

We don't care enough. It's easy enough nowadays for people to "take action" by simply complaining and debating on an internet forum.

We're kind of like the abused woman in a relationship who keeps coming back. We don't like the uppercuts or getting the belt, but we are just used to it being the way it is and don't know who or where to turn to to make it better.

The "power of the people" is being focused on complaining online and through incensive bumper stickers that make "protest" an easy afterthought.

Not that I blame people for being this way. It doesn't really feel like there's anyone positive to really look to that has a remote chance of making any kind of change. I've nearly given up on reading anything regarding politics anymore, because I just feel powerless and frustrated when I do.
 
debt.JPG
 
MassiveAttack said:

Strangely appropriate: my sister e-mailed me this story of two acquaintances she recently went on a trip to Montreal with:

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20071203_LIVING_LARGE.html

20071203_dn_g3cam03c.JPG
20071203_dn_g2scam03c.JPG


THE BOOK, quite telling, was found amid the newly purchased Ikea furnishings and the latest electronic appliances inside the tony Center City apartment.

Its title - "The Art of Cheating: A Nasty Little Book for Tricky Little Schemers and Their Hapless Victims" - may have said it all in the case of Jocelyn Kirsch and Edward K. Anderton.

The scheming, the trickery, the artistry described in the title, may have been used by the couple to defraud local businesses, credit-card companies, and their neighbors at the Belgravia House Condos - apparently all in the name of a lavish lifestyle.

Philadelphia police began to unravel the finely tuned scheme over the weekend.

Kirsch, 22, and Anderton, 25, both of Chestnut Street near 18th, were arrested Friday on charges of stealing some of their neighbors' identities and establishing credit lines in their names.

When the phony $1,700 check for hair extensions was refused, someone at the salon tried to contact Kirsch by phone, then with a text message, to which Kirsch allegedly replied:

"Hello. You don't know my name, but I know yours. I also know your nice place on . . . Street and how you get home at night. You're the one who should be worried."

The couple also had copies of the mailbox keys of every resident at Belgravia Condos, 1811 Chestnut, and copies of door keys to about 30 percent of the building's apartments, the police source said. Police also found a picklock set.
 

MoxManiac

Member
Zyzyxxz said:
So in the time it took me to post this message the debt grew by 20 million USD...


Damn I could have used that to build a hosue of Jello and by science make it so it never melt.

It took you 20 minutes to type that post?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
We pay in interest four times more than we spend on education and four times what it will cost to cover 10 million children with health insurance for five years," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "That's fiscal irresponsibility."


WOAH!!!!!
 

ZAK

Member
"We pay in interest four times more than we spend on education and four times what it will cost to cover 10 million children with health insurance for five years," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "That's fiscal irresponsibility."
Paying interest is fiscally irresponsible. Gotcha.
 
The Democratic-led Congress recently did just that, raising the ceiling to $9.82 trillion as the former $8.97 trillion maximum was about to be exceeded. It was the fifth debt-ceiling increase since Bush became president in 2001.

And like the 50th since the 1940s.


"We pay in interest four times more than we spend on education and four times what it will cost to cover 10 million children with health insurance for five years," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "That's fiscal irresponsibility."

The idea that she's trying to lay all the blame for our current mess on the GOP is utterly LOLz-worthy.
 
siamesedreamer said:
The idea that she's trying to lay all the blame for our current mess on the GOP is utterly LOLz-worthy.

Agreed. Although you could make the case that the Iraq war was the fault of the Bush administration, even though the decision was nearly a unanimous vote in Congress.
 
siamesedreamer said:
The idea that she's trying to lay all the blame for our current mess on the GOP is utterly LOLz-worthy.

True but they haven't exactly tried to improve the situation, and it has happened on their watch.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Jefferson said we need a revolution every 20 years! It's time to revolt and get rid of government waste!
 

Odrion

Banned
There was a discussion about social services and the conversatist group brought up how France's obsessively large amount of social services may badly effect their children's children!

I'd rather have that then going broke from unnecessary wars.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
It's not just Bush's fault...it's also Reagan's, and the elder Bush's...maybe some of Carter's too. But the brunt of the damage to the debt was done under Ronny and Dubya afaik. It makes sense. They both endorse Reaganomics as a viable economic principle. PEACE.
 
worldrunover said:
True but they haven't exactly tried to improve the situation, and it has happened on their watch.

The national debt was $5.7 trillion when Bush took office. It went up almost $2 trillion under Clinton.

Bush's major miscalculation was the tax cuts that were based on the utterly laughable stance that the capital gains tax revenues that fueled Clinton's surpluses would continue on for a decade+. Shortly after the cut was enacted, the capital gains tax revenues fell off a cliff. Add the massive expansion of government (DoHS), entitlements (Medicare PBD), and the Iraq war with a tax cut that does not have limitations, and you've got the formula for a shit-tastic fiscal record.

All they had to do was have certain stoppers in the tax cut and things would be drastically different. Everyone who's interested in this stuff should read Greenspan's book.
 

Gaborn

Member
siamesedreamer said:
The national debt was $5.7 trillion when Bush took office. It went up almost $2 trillion under Clinton.

Bush's major miscalculation was the tax cuts that were based on the utterly laughable stance that the capital gains tax revenues that fueled Clinton's surpluses would continue on for a decade+. Shortly after the cut was enacted, the capital gains tax revenues fell off a cliff. Add the massive expansion of government (DoHS), entitlements (Medicare PBD), and the Iraq war with a tax cut that does not have limitations, and you've got the formula for a shit-tastic fiscal record.

All they had to do was have certain stoppers in the tax cut and things would be drastically different. Everyone who's interested in this stuff should read Greenspan's book.

No, Bush's major miscalculation was, and remains NEVER VETOING A SINGLE SPENDING BILL and never fighting for major spending cuts.
 

Kabouter

Member
Gaborn said:
No, Bush's major miscalculation was, and remains NEVER VETOING A SINGLE SPENDING BILL and never fighting for major spending cuts.
I very much doubt such behaviour is unique to Bush. Politicians everywhere behave like that, sometimes to the same degree as Bush.
 

Gaborn

Member
Kabouter said:
I very much doubt such behaviour is unique to Bush. Politicians everywhere behave like that, sometimes to the same degree as Bush.

I never said it was unique behavior to Bush. It is, however, somewhat unusual for a Republican. Even if he is closer to Wilson in his foreign policy and LBJ in his profligate spending.
 

Solaros

Member
Kestastrophe said:
Agreed. Although you could make the case that the Iraq war was the fault of the Bush administration, even though the decision was nearly a unanimous vote in Congress.

It was mostly unanimous but there should of been a counsel formed to make sure that what is happening over there is what the congress voted for.

Mr. Banana Grabber said:
To play the devil's advocate: How long until this affects me directly?

Do the math and realize that you are making LESS money every single minute that one million dollars is created. Check out Money as Debt to know how it all works. No conspiracy bullshit, just how the system started and how it will eventually end.
 

Solaros

Member
siamesedreamer said:
The national debt was $5.7 trillion when Bush took office. It went up almost $2 trillion under Clinton.

Bush's major miscalculation was the tax cuts that were based on the utterly laughable stance that the capital gains tax revenues that fueled Clinton's surpluses would continue on for a decade+. Shortly after the cut was enacted, the capital gains tax revenues fell off a cliff. Add the massive expansion of government (DoHS), entitlements (Medicare PBD), and the Iraq war with a tax cut that does not have limitations, and you've got the formula for a shit-tastic fiscal record.

All they had to do was have certain stoppers in the tax cut and things would be drastically different. Everyone who's interested in this stuff should read Greenspan's book.

This one?

Thanks for the reccomendation too.
 

Phoenix

Member
I just don't understand why Greenspan was more worried about where the government would allocate the surplus than he was on getting the debt actually paid in full. The national debt is as huge a threat to national security as a nuclear weapons program - just that on the later it may never impact us whereas the former has been fucking us for years.
 

Solaros

Member
Phoenix said:
I just don't understand why Greenspan was more worried about where the government would allocate the surplus than he was on getting the debt actually paid in full. The national debt is as huge a threat to national security as a nuclear weapons program - just that on the later it may never impact us whereas the former has been fucking us for years.

But the Weapons of Mass Destruction. Kind of ironic how we fight something so hard(whether a conspiracy or not) and yet we invite something even more likely to destroy the whole nation by spending so much.
 
Phoenix said:
I just don't understand why Greenspan was more worried about where the government would allocate the surplus than he was on getting the debt actually paid in full.

If I understand the economic theory behind deficits correctly, the total debt isn't as important as the yearly deficit per GDP. The higher the yearly deficit, the more capital that goes into buying government debt instead of investing in the economy.

So, I assume paying down the debt in full was never really gonna happen.

The big problem we face is that this mountain of debt was piled on before we even hit the problems associated with the coming entitlement tsunami.


Rayo said:
How hard is it to predict this stuff? Seriously, who is in charge here?

The most revealing thing I read in the book was how they were predicting surplusses out for over a decade. For a whole government to completely blow a prediction like that shows how difficult it is to predict.
 
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