Naughty Dog Responds to the Last of Us Part II Leaks (this is NOT a spoiler thread)
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Blue_Barry
Member
Yeah also coming to the same conclusion.
B-universe
Banned
Your implicit assumption is that there can never be a legitimate storytelling reason to ask for a protag in a sequel not to have this or that characteristic - in this specific case, being a lesbian. This, of course, is a purely arbitrary and entirely political decision.
There can be lots of reasons why a request for a protag not to be a lesbian, or not to be short, or not to be white, can indeed be at the very least debatable and not an exercise in mindless bigotry. It can be rooted in consistency, internal logic, foreshadowing, thematic congruence, etc, not irrational disdain for homosexuality.
I'm not saying people making the argument are right in the case of TLoU2. I'm saying you're wrong in assuming everyone calling for Ellie not to be lesbian is necessarily a homophobe/misogynist.
That's why I asked you to quote the OP.
And you declined.
PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
Amateur hacks belong on Steam Greenlight at best, or gtfo of our industry.
leo-j
Member
Also you don't know how those things end up happening, who knows what transpires. It isn't as simple as XYZ. What happened to X that caused Y and why is Z all of a sudden so important?Ten_Fold Edit that spoiler you fuckn moron
The fact the spoiler uses the T term in itself is so hateful. They literally mostly hate the game because Lesbian.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Oh I see what you're doing. You're making ridiculous assumptions. I didn't say no one can ever have a legit reason to ask a character not be made gay or straight. I was asked if anyone considered a character's sexuality significant to their enjoyment of the game so I provided an example of someone who clearly thought the character's sexuality was significant. There was no value judgment on that person for feeling that way in what I did.
It can be, but are you really arguing no one is ever coming from a bigoted viewpoint when demanding characters not be female or gay?
I didn't make that assumption, though. You've made more assumptions about me than I have about anyone else.
B-universe
Banned
Listen, pal. I asked you to quote the specific offending bits in the OP, (or in this thread, for that matter) OP you provided in support of your point people were simply being homophobic.
So far, zilch. Nada.
Rien de rien.
I think we're done here.
It's not your industry.
You don't get to decide,
The guy is ND's vice-president. It's ND's money, not yours. It's their studio, not yours. It's their IP, not yours.
How ridiculous is it for an anonymous poster to tell one of the worldwide industry leading studios higher-ups to, quote, "get out"?
Very, very ridiculous.
Rien
Jelly Belly
Hey hey... keep me out of it!
apocaliptic
Member
For your information the far left agenda is even worst than far right. In far left countries you get shamed, persecuted and incarcerated for being open about your sexuality. I know this very well, because I was born in an ex comunist country. Or you are going to tell me that comunism is not far left?
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I didn't link the OP to show people being "simply" homophobic, I was specifically asked to showcase ANYONE who's view of the game is significantly altered by the fact that someone is gay. It doesn't matter why they feel that way, if they're actually bigoted or if they have a valid reason to feel that way because I WASN'T ASKED FOR THOSE THINGS, I was simply asked to prove that people considered a character's sexuality vital to a game's quality.
The Mad Draklor
Member
By all means, point to where in this comment of mine below where I actually said that the TLOU2 will fall below expectations.
And I don't need to "know" Naughty Dog and their history. I just need to look at the sales data. As of October 2019, TLOU1 has sold over a total of 20 million copies. About 7 million of those sales are the PS3 version. If we are to assume all 7 million of the buyers of the PS3 version double-dipped on the remaster, then for TLOU2 to have met expectations, it needs to sell over 13 million copies. Of course, that's a massive assumption, but I'll assume it's true to give TLOU2 the most favorable scenario.
So yes, TLOU2 can sell 10 million copies and not be considered a success. After all, a sequel is supposed to show growth, not shrinkage.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
And it prob will show growth because the install base on ps4 is bigger than ps3, they have the hype from the first game and most likely will have an uograded ps5 version. All the seeds for success have been planted woth the previous iteration. No one goes into a sequel of a game where the first one was a banger not excited to buy it
The Mad Draklor
Member
The over 20 million sales for TLOU1 was as of October 2019. It has basically already taken into account the PS4's install base.
They're not going to sell a remaster version for the PS5 since the PS5 is backwards compatible with PS4 games. Unless you're expecting Sony to charge money for players to download a PS5 patch, a sale of the "PS4 version" is effectively a sale for the "PS5 version".
And we have seen with media like Birds of Prey, Picard, The Last Jedi/Rise of Skywalker, Game of Thrones S8, Battlefield V, etc. where that goodwill can be easily lost.
siekro1983
Banned
Hoping the game under performs big time.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Those are the worst examples you can come up with, Rise had no nope after people ate the last jedi alive, game of thrones had no book material to work off of so they had to wing it, BFV should have stated it was and else-worlds title instead of accurate to history and the whole "dont like it dont buy it" debacle they created themselves, esp with that dev or creator who said "What would I tell my daughter about women in WWII" I dont know the same people would tell their sons of daughters who by chanve are black and admitting to slavery than lie about it
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Lol it wont, and why? You want people to lose their jobs, livelihoods and have a studio in jeapardy because its doesn't have your politics in it?
siekro1983
Banned
it will still be profitable at 7-8 million which is probably the least it will do but that would be a failure and i'm hoping for those type of numbers, so maybe they can stop with the excessive woke shit.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Why do you care much, dont play it then. Everyone needs to stop being man babies and entitled that they feel every piece of media should be for them and represent them. So what it doesnt align with your beliefs you can still play it and get a different perspective in life just not your own.
Not everyone form of media is for you so people beed to stop feeling entitled that if its for someone else "oh well I want it to fail"
What grown up says that shit? Im Canadian but hate the fuck out of Trump but I sure as hell wouldnt want him to "fail" at being presidrnt because he's all America has right now and prob will win a second term whilst Bidens brain is practicing social distancing from his mouth.
siekro1983
Banned
I'm sorry but i was expecting a sequel to the last of us, i enjoyed the story of joel and ellie trying to survive and post apocalyptic world. i wanted more of it, what were getting here is complete garbage. imagine if breaking bad season 2 started with walter white being killed by his wife and then she became the star of the show, mean while pinkmen struggles to come out the closet. that would piss most fans off because they were expecting the continuation of season one, and not a complete destruction of what made the first season 1 great to begin with.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
We already knew Ellie was gay or Bi due to the dlc etc so this isnt a surprise that she is lesbian or is into girls. They didnt suddenly spring this on you and they didnt change her sexual orientation out of the blue. I could get your point if put of no where Joel turns gay that would be a weird left turn no one would see. So your example to begin with is stupid.
tfur
Member
This is depressing. I have not seen any spoilers other than the cult story from months ago.
Is this a 'get woke' clown world thing? I will absolutely still get the game, but if Druckman bit the SJW apple, he can get bent. I am willing to go in open minded and unspoiled, but if this is pandering echo chamber bullshit, that belongs in its own section of Netflix, I will be pissed.
I have a hard time believing he would ruin the series. Am I over reacting because everyone else is over reacting?
Is this a 'get woke' clown world thing? I will absolutely still get the game, but if Druckman bit the SJW apple, he can get bent. I am willing to go in open minded and unspoiled, but if this is pandering echo chamber bullshit, that belongs in its own section of Netflix, I will be pissed.
I have a hard time believing he would ruin the series. Am I over reacting because everyone else is over reacting?
siekro1983
Banned
we knew she was from the DLC but in part 2 as you can see from the trailer it plays a major role in the story. i can't spoil anything here so you have no clue what you are taking about.
KRod
Neo Member
Yeah, I don't really see anything good coming from this statement. Telling people not to spoil the game for others isn't going to discourage trolls, if anything acknowledging the spoilers as authentic will only encourage them to do so
Fake
Member
My reply was for people on the spoiler thread.
Grinchy
Banned
Yeah I'm wondering the same thing. Is the cult thing that we knew about weeks ago the whole crux of the "problem?" Or are the spoilers that we are avoiding hiding a ton of SJW nonsense? I don't want to spoil the game, but I also want to know if I'd prefer to save my money and not support the mind virus from spreading further.
TheKillerStove
Banned
It's not the cult, but I wouldn't say its politics that ruin it either. There are just a lot of writing decisions that seem purposely divisive. You may like how it plays out, you might not, but I know I'm not spending my money on it.
Jbomb19
Member
Ditto.
vpance
Member
Less woke than woke Netflix but more than woke Amazon Prime.
The Mad Draklor
Member
This is the worst rebuttal you can come up with. To summarize your "rebuttal", it's basically "these examples are not 100% the same. Therefore, these are bad examples." Each of those examples and TLOU2 show a common thread: sacrificing quality in favor for ideological pandering.
Jbomb19
Member
I CANT BELIEVE YOU SHOWED ALL THOSE SPOILERS
NeoGiffer
Member
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Whitesnake
Banned
The absolute state of Naughty Dog lmao
If I had to work with people like this I'd leak everything too
If I had to work with people like this I'd leak everything too
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
How do you know the qaulity is bad without actually playing the game, and spoilers dont count because your only getting 20% of the full picture and judging it based on that. So what if Ellie is gay and it leaks into the story. Sounds good, sounds like something new and a little different. Unless you played the game its fair to say you cant judge it yet much like if tou havent seen a movie you cant judge it either. If it doesnt have the politics you want Im sure other games do. Hell you wana be a white guy that claps a lot of cheeks? Got play Witcher 3
tfur
Member
Oh
My
GOD
Jesus take the wheel.
This dude acquired the woke toxoplasmosis.
Maybe Naughty Dog can hire Bruce back, and let Neil go make Netflix content.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Also the one that really fucks me up about your examples was the last jedi, they had some sjw stuff in their but peoples main problem was because Luke threw away a fuckn toy and the dude was severely depressed from what happened and didnt wana be Luke Skywalker anymore.....but....but my childhood hero.....lol
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
He's big into political parity. From Wiki, which goes with your clip.
Druckmann is a regular advocate of gender equality in video games, citing Anita Sarkeesian as an influence;[64] he presented the Ambassador Award to Sarkeesian at the 2014 Game Developers Choice Awards,[65] and regularly advocated her projects.[66] Throughout the development of Uncharted 4, Druckmann was influenced by concept artist Ashley Swidowski to include more female characters in the game. "She is constantly challenging me and pushing for diversity in our cast", he said.[58] Upon focus testers' criticism regarding the inclusion and portrayal of female characters in Uncharted 4, one of whom was forced to leave due to an outburst, Druckmann expressed "Wow, why does that matter?".[64]
Similarly, Ellie of The Last of Us was initially received negatively in early focus tests. Druckmann is proud that Ellie is a "strong, non-sexualized female lead character", and hoped that other developers would take similar approaches to characters without fear of unpopularity.[3] Druckmann and Straley were surprised by some of the backlash in regards to gender roles in The Last of Us, although Druckmann noted that "the more progress we make, the more those problems stand out".[67] He declared it a "misconception" that female protagonists hinder game sales,[68] evidenced by the success of The Last of Us.[67]
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
The leak about the homophobic cult was fake.
People are outraged for several reasons.
1. There's two things that happen when there's only one. They think the story is ruined at this point and they feel that it's pointless to continue the story.
2. They think this game's story is woke in politics.
3. They're upset about what occurs in the story.
I think 1&2 is what I've seen floating around the most.
MrS
Banned
Go play some Nintendo games if you want an experience where you don't have to use your mind.
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Paracelsus
Member
Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia
That's about the intellectual level needed to like modern "subverted expectations" manure.
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Stooky
Banned
Women are not a minority in population size, but in characterization in entertainment that can be argued, you can break it down by race, age , income, favorite color, favorite weekday etc. You mention clones but if you actually saw the numbers like i have you would be surprised. People are predictable we are repeation machines. Its unflattering to be viewed as block demo but that's how it works. Why things become popular in most cases is not by accident. People get paid a lot money to figure this stuff out for companies. Im a minority and I know what it feels like to be represented. Seeing the smile on my nieces face after watching Captain Marvel means everything, i know what those moments mean for her, that movie was made for her. I get what your saying and I agree to certain point. Ive been at the table where these discussions are made for products and the demogrpahics are viewed as blocks of numbers. For example Straight male is a huge block demo there is content made with that in mind. Almost every project is started as pure artistic vision no compromise. Once you start looking for funding, that artistic view can change. When it comes to blockbuster titles with huge budgets, maximum exposure is needed for max return, demo blocks are used and with in that it gets super granular its pin pointed in same cases to the brand of shoes the main character is wearing . Based off this it is focused tested to hell and back again and again to point by the time the project released the creator has a good idea what the performance is going to be. In most cases that 70% rated game is no surprise when the game is released. The surprise comes when it over performs or super under performs. Thats not the case all time.
Thats why all this agenda crap for the most part is bullshit. Ive seen the questionare sheets for focus groups, the demographic break downs, Ive added specific questions my self. From my experience If the Mortal Kombat team saw that taking out bouncing boobs and short skirts will get them potential 100k in more unit sales, then bouncing boobs are gone. Agenda in that case would be to make more money as in thats the case for most instances. There are caveats all of this, for the most this is how it works.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Sorry, but that's an Appeal to Novelty fallacy. Looks like you're getting way too upset because I find the spoilers of a game that happens to have a lesbian main character laughably bad. The plot is still shit if Ellie is heterosexual. A badly written story is a badly written story. The leaked plot does not stand up to scrutiny in terms of believability.
This is especially true when the VA of Joel has to preemptively tell the audience the "correct way" of experiencing the plot. A good story doesn't need someone to go out of their way to tell others how to watch a movie, read a book, or experience a game. A good story stands on its own two feet.
A college professor has actually been using The Lest Jedi as an example of bad storytelling. That says to me that the problems lie far greater than just Luke throwing his lightsaber behind (RLM does a great job covering the flaws with the Plinkett persona). But even if we just fixate on that, the in-universe explanation as of why he became a hermit is not consistent with his established character from Episodes IV - VI. His change in behavior between VI to VII was not done gradually and as a result, the level of believability is not there.
Storytelling is an exercise of "If... then" statements. The Last Jedi did not do that exercise thoroughly and just quantum leapt from Point A to Point B.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Youre wrong on both counts. There is objectively a SJW agenda and the game won't be materially affected sales wise.
flashfire926
Member
Get fucked Naughty Dog. You treated your employees like complete shit, and now it's come back to bite you in the ass.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Of course it was a jump point JJ left it literally at that and thats what Rian Johnson wanted to do and go with the character which is by far a more interesting direction than giving me ol goodie twoshoes luke frok before, im sure a college professor doing it then oh boy it must be true that the movie was terrible. You want to look at a terrible movie with terrible story instead of this try dissecting something like the room.
I dont care about your opinion on the game, im thr same person who said dont buy it. But im tired of the typical argument "well im not buying it because it doesnt pander to me" do what, not every piece of media is going to pander to you, and just because you read some plot points again doesnt give you thr whole story. Hell people were worried about Endgame because the time travel thing leaked but in the end the majority of people said they wrapped it up pretty well compared to what they read.
Experience the game if you want but I want consistency, I dont like half assed arguments because you read leaks online, context further in the story is given that you may not know about and are judging merely based on a few items.
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Wtf? Sounds like Druckmann most definitely has an IdPol/SJW agenda and that he be perfect as a Mod at the REE asylum.
Stooky
Banned
Im black, i don't run out to see the latest Tyler Perry, I thought "US" sucked, Its not that on point, its just that your more likely to support . If a demo says majority of a Latino males between the age of 25-35 favorite color is blue, and thats the audience im targeting then my main character might have blue shirt on or my movie poster font might be blue. Miles Morales wearing Air Jordan 1 Retro in the movie not by accident. Black Panther over exceeded what Marvel thought it was going to do by a Huge amount. What Marvel didn't calculate was black ppl saying im buying out the theatre and busing ppl to the movie theatre to see this film. A bad movie is a bad movie the demo doesn't help that. There are anomalys, Tyler Perry movies are a good example of that. Hollywood doesn't know what to do with it, they can't recreate it. The numbers show that if you see someone in film/commercial that looks like you, you are more likely to support it. Check out Rough Night Vs Girls Night, tell me who that is targeted towards. These movies were released with in a month from each other. An example there are black targeted Toyota commercials that run on BET and white toyota commercials on NBC, there a specific commercials for every demo. Those commercials will be different just depending on what tv show is currently running in that time slot advertising the same product. There are marketing agencies that specialize in targeting specific demographics and it works very well.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Again with the Appeal to Novelty fallacy. Doing something different for the sake of being different doesn't cut it unless the execution is on point. The shift of Luke's character did not pass the "If...then" scrutiny test.
For someone who doesn't care about my opinion, you sure love to make a whole lot of assumptions of why I find TLOU2's plot to be bogus. I never said anything about TLOU2 not pandering to me. Heck, I'm Asian American of which the game has plenty of characters of that descent, but that doesn't make a story good. I've read the plot and I came to the conclusion that it's as bad as The Last Jedi or Game of Thrones S8. Several people have come to that conclusion, as well. Deal with it.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Sure but then you could say with JJ the definition of insanity by doing what he did in ep VII was the same shit we saw from ep 4. Again the whole "well you changed it doesnt make it great argument" is bullshit to begin with because if people never changed anything we would be in a stagnate industry with no new ideas etc. Does making some different always make it great? No, but its does push new ideas to be tried and eventually polished more than where they started. Again if we dont ever test or push the envelope then gaming as we know it will be the same shit generations to come. One nee idea that you dont find great could spark something completely different that can benefit the gaming industry with gameplay or story telling. Id rather keep evolving than choose to stand still and have nothing that provokes thought and discussion.