Support NeoGAF

[Mattyp]

Druckmann is a regular advocate of gender equality in video games, citing Anita Sarkeesian as an influence;[64]

Alright let's wrap it up folks no more giving ND your money, no need to go any further then this point right here.

 

[Whitesnake]

So here's something I found funny. On reddit the sub /r/TheLastOfUs, full of diehard TLoU fans, is now no longer receiving new posts and is locking the comments of all existing posts, all to avoid spoilers.

The subreddit /r/TheLastOfUs2, full of people shitting on the game and meme-ing it to hell, is placing no such restrictions on themselves.

Meaning that the people who still want the game can't talk about unless they do so in another sub's megathread where their discussion will get buried, or unless they talk about in a space where their precious game will be openly shit on.

oh shit wrong thread lmao

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Sure but then you could say with JJ the definition of insanity by doing what he did in ep VII was the same shit we saw from ep 4. Again the whole "well you changed it doesnt make it great argument" is bullshit to begin with

Aaaaaaand there's the strawman fallacy. I argued that just because you do something differently, it does not automatically make it good. That is what an Appeal to Novelty fallacy is. I further argued that doing something new also required good execution.

because if people never changed anything we would be in a stagnate industry with no new ideas etc. Does making some different always make it great? No, but its does push new ideas to be tried and eventually polished more than where they started. Again if we dont ever test or push the envelope then gaming as we know it will be the same shit generations to come. One nee idea that you dont find great could spark something completely different that can benefit the gaming industry with gameplay or story telling. Id rather keep evolving than choose to stand still and have nothing that provokes thought and discussion.

You're getting way too preachy. Also, if that's the case, then The Last Jedi should've been delayed to further polish Luke's character if we are to go by Mark Hammill's comments on the movie. New ideas only work if the execution is well thought out. Hammill's comments suggested that the execution was poor and the audience determined that to be true once they saw the film.

 

[DForce]

He's big into political parity. From Wiki, which goes with your clip.

Druckmann is a regular advocate of gender equality in video games, citing Anita Sarkeesian as an influence;[64] he presented the Ambassador Award to Sarkeesian at the 2014 Game Developers Choice Awards,[65] and regularly advocated her projects.[66] Throughout the development of Uncharted 4, Druckmann was influenced by concept artist Ashley Swidowski to include more female characters in the game. "She is constantly challenging me and pushing for diversity in our cast", he said.[58] Upon focus testers' criticism regarding the inclusion and portrayal of female characters in Uncharted 4, one of whom was forced to leave due to an outburst, Druckmann expressed "Wow, why does that matter?".[64]

Similarly, Ellie of The Last of Us was initially received negatively in early focus tests. Druckmann is proud that Ellie is a "strong, non-sexualized female lead character", and hoped that other developers would take similar approaches to characters without fear of unpopularity.[3] Druckmann and Straley were surprised by some of the backlash in regards to gender roles in The Last of Us, although Druckmann noted that "the more progress we make, the more those problems stand out".[67] He declared it a "misconception" that female protagonists hinder game sales,[68] evidenced by the success of The Last of Us.[67]

Have to put things in a better perspective.



The entire video tells a more complete story.

14:00
- Neil admits that his designs were sexualized while drying concept art of the Last of Us. Members of his staff didn't like the designs, so he decided to change them.

35:00
- Neil talks about an awakening around the same time Anita's videos started to surface about Tropes vs Women. His inspiration for his design started after the birth of his daughter. He also talks about how we may argue with Anita's point, but we can't argue with the point that a lot of female characters are sexualized (That's not my words, those are his).

44:00
- He talks about sexualized characters. He basically says there's no problem with it, it just needs to have a meaning behind it. He makes reference to Chloe from Uncharted and how she was designed to be that way.

 

[DForce]

So here's something I found funny. On reddit the sub /r/TheLastOfUs, full of diehard TLoU fans, is now no longer receiving new posts and is locking the comments of all existing posts, all to avoid spoilers.

The subreddit /r/TheLastOfUs2, full of people shitting on the game and meme-ing it to hell, is placing no such restrictions on themselves.

Meaning that the people who still want the game can't talk about unless they do so in another sub's megathread where their discussion will get buried, or unless they talk about in a space where their precious game will be openly shit on.

I've seen fans from other platforms post spoilers and shit on the game.

It's going to get bad because now those Sony fans are going to look to spoil Xbox games.

 

[MayauMiao]

The more I hear about the leaks the more I think about Last Jedi.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

44:00
- He talks about sexualized characters. He basically says there's no problem with it, it just needs to have a meaning behind it. He makes reference to Chloe from Uncharted and how she was designed to be that way.

Interesting point considering the majority of lead characters in the games he helps write are usually on the good looking, fit, scruffy/cool side of the scale. I don't see too many normal looking overweight people in his games.

 

[diffusionx]

Why do corporations talk to us like we are children. "We know the last few days have been difficult for you..."

They really haven't. It's a fucking video game story, not cancer. It is not that big of a deal. And the thing is, they ALL do this (as seen by the recent "in these difficult times" ads) which means someone somewhere has done research saying that we want companies baby-talking us.

 

[BadBurger]

I'm not going to spoil myself. I'll wait on the game to release. I bet it's going to go down as another classic.

 

[Lionel Richie]

It's going to get bad because now those Sony fans are going to look to spoil Xbox games.

I've seen this sentiment more than once portrayed as an inevitability, but I don't get it. It isn't Xbox fans spoiling the game, it's retarded assholes doing it. It won't be Sony fans retaliating, it will be retarded assholes as well.

 

[TheStruggler]

Aaaaaaand there's the strawman fallacy. I argued that just because you do something differently, it does not automatically make it good. That is what an Appeal to Novelty fallacy is. I further argued that doing something new also required good execution.


You're getting way too preachy. Also, if that's the case, then The Last Jedi should've been delayed to further polish Luke's character if we are to go by Mark Hammill's comments on the movie. New ideas only work if the execution is well thought out. Hammill's comments suggested that the execution was poor and the audience determined that to be true once they saw the film.

Andddd your whole argument has been a faulty generalization fallacy, you played right into my hands. Again your original claim was they are sacrificing quality for pandering meanwhile you are jumping to a conclusion without actual evidence. You read a few spoilers and decided to make up your mind without actually playing the game. Not even just plot but you jumped to conclusion on even the gameplay which is also part of the game, are you going to assume that even gameplay quality is lower because that pandered to a certain audience? Again you're judging evening based on a few spoilers and coming to a conclusion that the quality is bad yet you have yet to play it yourself. Games after much more than a synopsis of a book, there are more things to judge or by than the words on a page. A game could have a bad story but have amazing gameplay. Hence god of war, the story was lack lustre but the gameplay of said adventure was quality.

don't generalize quality just because you read a few plus points on 4chan.

 

[TheStruggler]

Why do corporations talk to us like we are children. "We know the last few days have been difficult for you..."

They really haven't. It's a fucking video game story, not cancer. It is not that big of a deal. And the thing is, they ALL do this (as seen by the recent "in these difficult times" ads) which means someone somewhere has done research saying that we want companies baby-talking us.

Yeah i never understood that, like times are stupid right now with the pandemic etc and sure it would be nice to play the game without knowing stuff but....i ain't going to die.

however i can agree that to some people maybe this is the one of the few things they have to look forward to so i dont know lol

 

[CatLady]

I've seen fans from other platforms post spoilers and shit on the game.

It's going to get bad because now those Sony fans are going to look to spoil Xbox games.

Glad I don't frequent reddit. I mostly just use GAF and at least if anyone tries that here they'll get perma-banned.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

edit.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I've seen fans from other platforms post spoilers and shit on the game.

It's going to get bad because now those Sony fans are going to look to spoil Xbox games.

Your first bullseye shouldn't be other platform gamers, but the Sony employee spoiling it on the net to begin with.

 

[Paracelsus]

I've seen fans from other platforms post spoilers and shit on the game.

It's going to get bad because now those Sony fans are going to look to spoil Xbox games.

It's a one-way street, nobody cares about Halo spoilers and nobody even knows who Senua is.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

It's a one-way street, nobody cares about Halo spoilers and nobody even knows who Senua is.

If they made a great Halo game again I would, like if someone had spoiled for me that in Halo 1

Spoiler

guilty spark was the villain

I'd be pretty upset.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

One just needs to look at the Twitter replies to Naughty Dog, there are thousands of disappointed fans of the franchise who won't be purchasing the game.

Oh no what will Sony do? Oh no the sales... WHAT A FAIL. WORST GAME EVER. Why are they shoving these minorities in my face. WHYYYYYY THE PAINNN.

If you check everyone complaining they complain about everything Sony.

I love this game. Tell your story Naughty Dog. One thing I do ask is that this game has a PS5 release. Not just a backwards compatible game.

 

[Judd Nelson]

Alright let's wrap it up folks no more giving ND your money, no need to go any further then this point right here.

Because he "is a regular advocate of gender equality in video games"? Oh no, that evil madman!

Oh no what will Sony do? Oh no the sales... WHAT A FAIL. WORST GAME EVER. Why are they shoving these minorities in my face. WHYYYYYY THE PAINNN.

If you check everyone complaining they complain about everything Sony.

I love this game. Tell your story Naughty Dog. One thing I do ask is that this game has a PS5 release. Not just a backwards compatible game.

I know right?!

 

[TheStruggler]

Oh no what will Sony do? Oh no the sales... WHAT A FAIL. WORST GAME EVER. Why are they shoving these minorities in my face. WHYYYYYY THE PAINNN.

If you check everyone complaining they complain about everything Sony.

I love this game. Tell your story Naughty Dog. One thing I do ask is that this game has a PS5 release. Not just a backwards compatible game.

Funny thing also the loudest ones on twitter are the minority. Lots of people are going to cap for this game because the first one was a huge banger

 

[DeadOblivion78]

Anybody betting this game will sell more than FF7 remake in the first 3 days?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Anybody betting this game will sell more than FF7 remake in the first 3 days?

It already beats it on Amazon.com on a daily basis so... sure

 

[DeadOblivion78]

It already beats it on Amazon.com on a daily basis so... sure

Honestly I believe this "internet outrage" will not negatively impact sales whatsover.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Honestly I believe this "internet outrage" will not negatively impact sales. whatsover.

I can actually agree, because I think for every person who cancels their pre-order due to this there's another person who pre-orders for the first time because of this.

Also is it a little weird how many people are claiming they're cancelling pre-orders because a game they cherished is ruined by leaks? Like, if you truly cherished the game/franchise... why did you read and look at the leaks? If I'm super hyped and super into a game/franchise/movie series I'd avoid spoilers at all costs.

 

[Paracelsus]

I can actually agree, because I think for every person who cancels their pre-order due to this there's another person who pre-orders for the first time because of this.

Also is it a little weird how many people are claiming they're cancelling pre-orders because a game they cherished is ruined by leaks? Like, if you truly cherished the game/franchise... why did you read and look at the leaks? If I'm super hyped and super into a game/franchise/movie series I'd avoid spoilers at all costs.

Depends on the spoilers. Over the span of two years you got SW8, GOT8, FFVIIr and now this. These are all spoilers many would've wanted to know.
It seems their tactic is "cover up the spoilers until people are suckered into buying your product, then let the people "super into it" defend it" like "you're not a real fan unless you blindly accept whatever they write for you" or use sales from what's practically a scam as indicator of good storytelling.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Depends on the spoilers. Over the span of two years you got SW8, GOT8, FFVIIr and now this. These are all spoilers many would've wanted to know.
It seems their tactic is "cover up the spoilers until people are suckered into buying your product, then let the people "super into it" defend it" like "you're not a real fan unless you blindly accept whatever they write for you" or use sales from what's practically a scam as indicator of good storytelling.

A well constructed narrative can make you believe a character changes from what they were before though how the story is told, it can make you change your mind about the world even. Taking the significant beats out of that narrative and showing/telling you them without the proper context, build-up and so forth is absolutely going to be detrimental to any narrative, good or bad. Devs don't hide their endings and big twists to "sucker people in", they didn't hide the fact that Bruce Willis was dead the whole time in Sixth Sense to "sucker" you into a film where you expected Bruce Willis to be alive.

 

[Paracelsus]

A well constructed narrative can make you believe a character changes from what they were before though how the story is told, it can make you change your mind about the world even. Taking the significant beats out of that narrative and showing/telling you them without the proper context, build-up and so forth is absolutely going to be detrimental to any narrative, good or bad. Devs don't hide their endings and big twists to "sucker people in", they didn't hide the fact that Bruce Willis was dead the whole time in Sixth Sense to "sucker" you into a film where you expected Bruce Willis to be alive.

That's a strawman because the level of writing isn't even remotely comparable, and not to movies, in general.
If modern writers didn't stink, people would mind spoilers in a different, positive way. This is not "oh no, you ruined the game for me" but "...you wanted to hide this from me?"
They just want to avoid spoilers until the deal ($) is done, then let the fans in sunken cost denial do the defending.

We've already seen this, it's not like TLOU2 is unprecedented.
If you got no spoilers, here's what would happen
- Reviews would praise it (other than for the obvious reasons) because they absolutely hate their audience, and love "subverted expectations" as a replacement for actual writing
- Sunken cost fans would prove their loyalty "fandom" by blindly defending the plot
- Sales that come long before the spoilers would be used as a way to defend the spoilers.

Don't get me wrong, I get it. We've seen it all, so it's hard to write something fresh and good, but this whole "I'll take something old and actually good, take a dump on it and insult you for not liking it" is getting real bad real fast.

 

[Jbomb19]

How do you know the qaulity is bad without actually playing the game, and spoilers dont count because your only

Youre wrong on both counts. There is objectively a SJW agenda and the game won't be materially affected sales wise.

and what is this grand agenda that an entire gaming studio and Sony cares so much about that they designed an entire game to "push" said agenda?

I can actually agree, because I think for every person who cancels their pre-order due to this there's another person who pre-orders for the first time because of this.

Also is it a little weird how many people are claiming they're cancelling pre-orders because a game they cherished is ruined by leaks? Like, if you truly cherished the game/franchise... why did you read and look at the leaks? If I'm super hyped and super into a game/franchise/movie series I'd avoid spoilers at all costs.

Right? If you cherish this series, looking at leaks is a no-win situation. Either you spoil a really cool story that you wish you got to experience yourself or you see plot points/cut scenes you don't like and you get all worked up before the game is even out.

 

[siekro1983]

i Knew this was gonna be shitty after watching this video on youtube months ago. i had a little hope but they blew away my expectations of how shitty it is. honestly abby seems like a forced character just so they push there agenda of bad ass muscular trans female, you could see it in lost legacy and even uncharted 4, no more toxic white straight males in are games, no matter how loved the character is.

 

[DForce]

Your first bullseye shouldn't be other platform gamers, but the Sony employee spoiling it on the net to begin with.

I've seen this sentiment more than once portrayed as an inevitability, but I don't get it. It isn't Xbox fans spoiling the game, it's retarded assholes doing it. It won't be Sony fans retaliating, it will be retarded assholes as well.

It's a one-way street, nobody cares about Halo spoilers and nobody even knows who Senua is.

I've already seen Playstation fans taking down names of Xbox fans who are spoiling the game, and they weren't limiting themselves to just exclusive games.

 

[Azurro]

I've already seen Playstation fans taking down names of Xbox fans who are spoiling the game, and they weren't limiting themselves to just exclusive games.

Dude, some people are console warring children but they are not the majority. Most of the people talking about the spoilers are PS fans, we are simply disappointed with the "trannies vs lesbians, hell yeah!! Fuck white men!! And Christians!!" plot.

 

[DForce]

Dude, some people are console warring children but they are not the majority. Most of the people talking about the spoilers are PS fans, we are simply disappointed with the "trannies vs lesbians, hell yeah!! Fuck white men!! And Christians!!" plot.

I know what's going on. It just means you're going to have more people trying to spoil games. That's it.

 

[Azurro]

I can actually agree, because I think for every person who cancels their pre-order due to this there's another person who pre-orders for the first time because of this.

Also is it a little weird how many people are claiming they're cancelling pre-orders because a game they cherished is ruined by leaks? Like, if you truly cherished the game/franchise... why did you read and look at the leaks? If I'm super hyped and super into a game/franchise/movie series I'd avoid spoilers at all costs.

Because the leaks reveal a shit plot full of SJW agenda? I mean, if what you said it's true, all the woke movies and TV shows would be a huge success and yet they are failing all over the place, so, you are wrong on that.

I do agree that the sales of this game won't tank, most people aren't hardcore and don't follow videogame forums, maybe they'll know of some leaks and that's it. At worst 10 or 20% of the sales will be affected, most people will have the "pleasure" of experiencing the team trannie vs lesbians rumble in the jungle storyline by themselves. The sequel will be the one that gets affected by the shitty plot.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Because the leaks reveal a shit plot full of SJW agenda? I mean, if what you said it's true, all the woke movies and TV shows would be a huge success and yet they are failing all over the place, so, you are wrong on that.

I do agree that the sales of this game won't tank, most people aren't hardcore and don't follow videogame forums, maybe they'll know of some leaks and that's it. At worst 10 or 20% of the sales will be affected, most people will have the "pleasure" of experiencing the team trannie vs lesbians rumble in the jungle storyline by themselves. The sequel will be the one that gets affected by the shitty plot.

Westworld is doing great. Watchmen did great. What shows are failing due to injecting SJW stuff into them?

 

[Azurro]

Westworld is doing great. Watchmen did great. What shows are failing due to injecting SJW stuff into them?

Watchmen was middling, HBO wanted a phenomenon but got decent ratings. Is Westworld woke? I've never heard of anyone complaining about that show and I follow a lot of the people complaining about stuff on all sides of the spectrum (the left is boring though, it's all variations of "orange man bad, nazis everywhere").

All the recent movies and tv shows flopped, off the top of my head:

Terminator Dark Fate
Oceans 8
Batwoman
Harley Quinn
Supergirl
Charlie's Angels
Black Christmas

If you were right, people would just be making every piece of media to be woke, because they'd all be financial successes so that everyone could show how virtuous they are.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Watchmen was middling, HBO wanted a phenomenon but got decent ratings.

All the recent movies and tv shows flopped, off the top of my head:

Terminator Dark Fate
Oceans 8
Batwoman
Harley Quinn
Supergirl
Charlie's Angels
Black Christmas

If you were right, people would just be making every piece of media to be woke, because they'd all be financial successes so that everyone could show how virtuous they are.

HBO has been doing everything in their power to get Damon Lindelof to do a second season because of how well the show did, actually.

Every Terminator film has been a flop since part 3, woke or not.

Your other examples seem to be just "woke means starring women" or something. I'd argue the failure of stuff like the latest Black Christmas had more to do with the film already having been remade, this remake straying too far from the original and it being PG-13, not to mention those awful previews which spoil every plot twist. Most your examples aren't actually good things that simply injected SJW stuff an therefore failed, they are largely fundamentally awful products and the idea that it was just woke/SJW shit that tanked them is dubious.

 

[ZehDon]

Honestly I believe this "internet outrage" will not negatively impact sales whatsover.

It'll storm out of the gate, no question. An amazing first week... but this is gonna have a "The Last Jedi" level drop off once word of mouth kills it. The gaming press is likewise gonna lap this shit up - "10/10" "ND's done it again!" "Finally, a game that's better than movies!" - but holy cow, you better believe the push back from the player base is gonna make the storm thats currently blowing over the Internet look like an afternoon breeze. Player's aren't going to "question everything" - they're going to reject the entire goddamn experience. That level of nihilistism, mixed with the torture porn, is not and will never be palatable to the masses, players included. That first week is gonna blow the doors off... but, my word, the backdraft from the players is gonna leave ND reeling. If this finishes with 60% of TLOU's lifetime sales, they got off easy.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

It'll storm out of the gate, no question. An amazing first week... but this is gonna have a "The Last Jedi" level drop off once word of mouth kills it. The gaming press is likewise gonna lap this shit up - "10/10" "ND's done it again!" "Finally, a game that's better than movies!" - but holy cow, you better believe the push back from the player base is gonna make the storm thats currently blowing over the Internet look like an afternoon breeze. Player's aren't going to "question everything" - they're going to reject the entire experience. That level of nihilistic, mixed with the torture porn, is rejected by virtually the entire population, players included. That first week is gonna blow the doors off... but the backdraft from the players is gonna leave ND reeling. If this finished with 60% of TLOU's lifetime sales, they got off easy.

The Last Jedi didn't just do incredibly well in theaters (and btw it absolutely did incredibly well in theaters, it actually even had decent legs) but it also broke records on blu-ray. These propped up narratives of "get woke go broke" are often very selective or erroneous. Technically The Force Awakens "went woke" by Star Wars standards by starring a female and a black man, but it's to this day the highest grossing film in the US. Nothing even comes close to it. The real formula is "get woke + be bad = go broke"

 

[M1chl]

He's big into political parity. From Wiki, which goes with your clip.

Druckmann is a regular advocate of gender equality in video games, citing Anita Sarkeesian as an influence;[64] he presented the Ambassador Award to Sarkeesian at the 2014 Game Developers Choice Awards,[65] and regularly advocated her projects.[66] Throughout the development of Uncharted 4, Druckmann was influenced by concept artist Ashley Swidowski to include more female characters in the game. "She is constantly challenging me and pushing for diversity in our cast", he said.[58] Upon focus testers' criticism regarding the inclusion and portrayal of female characters in Uncharted 4, one of whom was forced to leave due to an outburst, Druckmann expressed "Wow, why does that matter?".[64]

Similarly, Ellie of The Last of Us was initially received negatively in early focus tests. Druckmann is proud that Ellie is a "strong, non-sexualized female lead character", and hoped that other developers would take similar approaches to characters without fear of unpopularity.[3] Druckmann and Straley were surprised by some of the backlash in regards to gender roles in The Last of Us, although Druckmann noted that "the more progress we make, the more those problems stand out".[67] He declared it a "misconception" that female protagonists hinder game sales,[68] evidenced by the success of The Last of Us.[67]

Then why the fuck is focus on her sexuality do much now.

 

[replicant-]

I've seen fans from other platforms post spoilers and shit on the game.

It's going to get bad because now those Sony fans are going to look to spoil Xbox games.

It is a mess out there. I've seen the spoilers, I was a bit angry at the time as Eurogamer wasn't moderating comments. But I'm free to browse, and I still want to play it.

 

[M1chl]

So here's something I found funny. On reddit the sub /r/TheLastOfUs, full of diehard TLoU fans, is now no longer receiving new posts and is locking the comments of all existing posts, all to avoid spoilers.

The subreddit /r/TheLastOfUs2, full of people shitting on the game and meme-ing it to hell, is placing no such restrictions on themselves.

Meaning that the people who still want the game can't talk about unless they do so in another sub's megathread where their discussion will get buried, or unless they talk about in a space where their precious game will be openly shit on.

oh shit wrong thread lmao

Can you ELI5 why moderators in reddit subs are such shills, I mean in general.

 

[ZehDon]

The Last Jedi didn't just do incredibly well in theaters (and btw it absolutely did incredibly well in theaters, it actually even had decent legs) but it also broke records on blu-ray. These propped up narratives of "get woke go broke" are often very selective or erroneous. Technically The Force Awakens "went woke" by Star Wars standards by starring a female and a black man, but it's to this day the highest grossing film in the US. Nothing even comes close to it. The real formula is "get woke + be bad = go broke"

Sorry, friend, you'll need to check your facts. "The Last Jedi" has the single largest week one to week two drop off in recorded box office history. Heck, even just within it's own franchise, its drop off was the largest ever seen - and that includes all three legendarily bad prequels. It's Blu-Ray sales were decent, sure... but just like the film, it was entirely front loaded; that's just the hardcore stepping in to complete their collections. Ultimately, People saw it, people hated it, and that killed its legs. It was originally projected to cross USB$2b internationally, and it ultimately made about 65-70% of that. It dramatically under-performed, and it also killed the next Star Wars film that followed it. And that's just the dollars from the film; the push back from fans is still going - three years later - and Star Wars merchandising sales are still struggling to recover. That's what a fan base outright rejecting an entry looks like. I won't point out that LucasFilm has been on course correction ever since, either.

So, I'm not sure why you're talking "get work, go broke" - I never touched on that in my post, and it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't think it's a factor here. I'm specifically talking about the leaks, and the game ND has made. Nihilism is the kind of drivel that college kids who discover philosophy for the first time really get in to... for about six months. The majority - the vast majority - reject it virtually entirely and grow up. ND has made a plot that, based on the leaks, gameplay footage, and everything it's Lead Writer, Creative Director and Studio Head has said, is so pointlessly, gutterly nihilistic for the sake of GOT-style empty spectacle, that I'm predicting we're gonna see another "The Last Jedi" style reaction. I predict the player base that loved the first game is going to reject this game outright.

If you disagree, that's cool, why do you disagree?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Sorry, friend, you'll need to check your facts. "The Last Jedi" has the single largest week one to week two drop off in recorded box office history. Heck, even just within it's own franchise, its drop off was the largest ever seen - and that includes all three legendarily bad prequels. It's Blu-Ray sales were decent, sure... but just like the film, it was entirely front loaded; that's just the hardcore stepping in to complete their collections. Ultimately, People saw it, people hated it, and that killed its legs. It was originally projected to cross USB$2b internationally, and it ultimately made about 65-70% of that. It dramatically under-performed, and it also killed the next Star Wars film that followed it. And that's just the dollars from the film; the push back from fans is still going - three years later - and Star Wars merchandising sales are still struggling to recover. That's what a fan base outright rejecting an entry looks like. I won't point out that LucasFilm has been on course correction ever since, either.

So, I'm not sure why you're talking "get work, go broke" - I never touched on that in my post, and it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't think it's a factor here. I'm specifically talking about the leaks, and the game ND has made. Nihilism is the kind of drivel that college kids who discover philosophy for the first time really get in to... for about six months. The majority - the vast majority - reject it virtually entirely and grow up. ND has made a plot that, based on the leaks, gameplay footage, and everything it's Lead Writer, Creative Director and Studio Head has said, is so pointlessly, gutterly nihilistic for the sake of GOT-style empty spectacle, that I'm predicting we're gonna see another "The Last Jedi" style reaction. I predict the player base that loved the first game is going to reject this game outright.

If you disagree, that's cool, why do you disagree?

Dollar drop, not percentage drop. Decent is underselling how well it did on blu-ray and you're also ignoring the legs it had beyond the second weekend. Also how were the blu sales front-loaded? It's number 28 on the all-time blu-ray charts https://www.the-numbers.com/alltime-bluray-sales-chart

I'm going to go ahead and say that arguing TLJ is the reason Solo did bad is kind of ridiculous because Solo was a terrible film.

There are fans who still whine about it, yes. I don't really care about merchandising sales, no one is buying Ellie and Joel figurines en masse either.

Why compare TLJ to TLOU II exactly, then? Wait, you know the new game is nihilistic based on out of context leaks? How was TLJ nihilistic, btw? Yeah, I'm beyond understanding how what we've seen indicates a nihilistic world view.

 

[junguler]

i wasn't going to buy this game as i don't have a ps4 anymore and i think the first game was a complete experience and didn't need a sequel. but even if i was, i know for a fact that i would have been turned off by all the spoilers i have seen/heard_of.
when you put your message before trying to tell a good story it shows and that piece of media suffers from it, we have seen this happening to comic books, movies and now on video games, art should feel natural and coming from your heart and not forced and pandering like how sjws usually want to do it.
i admit left leaning people are better storytellers but only if they decide to respect me as a consumer of that piece of entertainment.
a good story should have something for everyone to enjoy but if they want to make a story only for a minority of people, they then can't complain about misogyny and bigotry just because i don't like what they have to say.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

i wasn't going to buy this game as i don't have a ps4 anymore and i think the first game was a complete experience and didn't need a sequel. but even if i was, i know for a fact that i would have been turned off by all the spoilers i have seen/heard_of.
when you put your message before trying to tell a good story it shows and that piece of media suffers from it, we have seen this happening to comic books, movies and now on video games, art should feel natural and coming from your heart and not forced and pandering like how sjws usually want to do it.
i admit left leaning people are better storytellers but only if they decide to respect me as a consumer of that piece of entertainment.
a good story should have something for everyone to enjoy but if they want to make a story only for a minority of people, they then can't complain about misogyny and bigotry just because i don't like what they have to say.

What? A good story should be made for everyone? Uh... no, disagreed. I'd rather the people behind a project put their own personality into a project and made something person than made something designed to appeal to the most people possible. I don't need my video games dumbed down the way movies have been for decades.

 

[M1chl]

I've seen fans from other platforms post spoilers and shit on the game.

It's going to get bad because now those Sony fans are going to look to spoil Xbox games.

Do you have some proof or is it some persecution complex type of thing.

 

[vkbest]

Honestly I believe this "internet outrage" will not negatively impact sales whatsover.

For this game maybe not, but the next game from ND is other thing.

 

[ZehDon]

Dollar drop, not percentage drop. Decent is underselling how well it did on blu-ray and you're also ignoring the legs it had beyond the second weekend. Also how were the blu sales front-loaded? It's number 28 on the all-time blu-ray charts https://www.the-numbers.com/alltime-bluray-sales-chart

Sorry, perhaps I'm missing your point... because you don't seem to be making one here. Let me go over my point again so you can respond. I believe, based on the information we have about TLOU2, that we'll see a negative reaction to it, similar in style to the negative reaction we saw to "The Last Jedi". As as result of this backlash, I said that I expected to see a drop off in sales for TLOU2 similar in scale to the one we saw for "The Last Jedi". That's my thoughts, and my point. I'm not saying TLOU2 is identical to The Last Jedi - I'm not comparing content. I'm comparing reactions to said content. If that wasn't clear before, I hope it is now.

Your counter-point seemed to be... to talk about how The Last Jedi made money, for some reason? We'll ignore that I didn't say it was unsuccessful - I said it triggered a fan backlash, and that it under-performed. Which, it did. Those are just the facts, not really up for debate.

I'm going to go ahead and say that arguing TLJ is the reason Solo did bad is kind of ridiculous because Solo was a terrible film.

It's certified fresh, and has an audience score higher than TLJ, so no. It bombed because, as JJ Abrams put it: "I don't think that people go to 'Star Wars' to be told, 'This doesn't matter.'" After The Last Jedi, Star Wars didn't matter for a lot of people. Solo was just caught in that wake.

There are fans who still whine about it, yes. I don't really care about merchandising sales..

Yes, there are fans who still whine about it. That's literally my point. And you really should ignore merchandising sales for The Last Jedi - they're very, very damaging to your narrative.

Why compare TLJ to TLOU II exactly, then? Wait, you know the new game is nihilistic based on out of context leaks? How was TLJ nihilistic, btw? Yeah, I'm beyond understanding how what we've seen indicates a nihilistic world view.

I didn't compare the two - as I stated above, I compared what I expect TLOU's fans reaction will be to TLOU2, to what Star Wars' fans reaction were to TLJ. I never said TLJ was nihilistic - JJ Abrams did, though. As for indicating a nihilistic world view, you know I can't provide a complete answer to that without posting spoilers. And this is clearly marked as a no spoilers thread, so I'm not going to be that guy. To be very vague, I'll say that nihilism is typically expressed very plainly as "nothing really matters". After what we've learned, I don't believe there's any other interpretation - Druckmann described it as a game about "hate". And I think TLOU's fans are going to reject the game, and what ND has done, because "hate" - especially the nihilistic version being presented - is a hell of a lot less palatable to a lot of people.

 

[B-universe]

Women are not a minority in population size, but in characterization in entertainment that can be argued, you can break it down by race, age , income, favorite color, favorite weekday etc.

What's your point?
Is anyone being prevented from casting female protags?
No one is owed anything.
If Neil wants to do it, he can, he will and he is. I can then look at the final product and decide whether or not it's me.

I'd say there's fewer gipsy asexual albino bald protags than women. Why is sex more relevant a distinction than height, or IQ? For that matter, you can come up with countless categories less prominently featured than women. If the criterion were universality , women would not be your first choice.

But the real question is this: why should we strive for statistical equality?

You mention clones but if you actually saw the numbers like i have you would be surprised. People are predictable we are repeation machines.

You missed the point entirely.

Its unflattering to be viewed as block demo but that's how it works.

So you think all straight males think alike? All bisexual females vote the same way? All polyamorous non-binary individuals like the same kind of movies, the same desserts, are all pescatarian?

Why things become popular in most cases is not by accident. People get paid a lot money to figure this stuff out for companies. Im a minority and I know what it feels like to be represented.

Representation is intellectual fraud. It necessarily leads to bad fiction. TLoU2 threads provide anecdotal evidence, with some pulling a "How Dare you criticize my religious affiliation? The game is sheit!" and others pulling a "The game has lesbian representation. It must be great!". It's the same flawed process, just with different outcomes.

If you view fiction through the lens of Representation you're always going to end up with inferior cardboard characters. Always. Currently, it seems to be the road to minority Mary Sues and straight white Saurons. One that pendulum might swing back and people who endorse Representation won't be able to say a word agaisnt it.

Seeing the smile on my nieces face after watching Captain Marvel means everything, i know what those moments mean for her, that movie was made for her. I get what your saying and I agree to certain point. Ive been at the table where these discussions are made for products and the demogrpahics are viewed as blocks of numbers.

People who place that sort of importance on fiction instead of on personal real-life achievements have some maturing to do.

For example Straight male is a huge block demo there is content made with that in mind. Almost every project is started as pure artistic vision no compromise. Once you start looking for funding, that artistic view can change. When it comes to blockbuster titles with huge budgets, maximum exposure is needed for max return, demo blocks are used and with in that it gets super granular its pin pointed in same cases to the brand of shoes the main character is wearing . Based off this it is focused tested to hell and back again and again to point by the time the project released the creator has a good idea what the performance is going to be. In most cases that 70% rated game is no surprise when the game is released. The surprise comes when it over performs or super under performs. Thats not the case all time.

Thats why all this agenda crap for the most part is bullshit. Ive seen the questionare sheets for focus groups, the demographic break downs, Ive added specific questions my self. From my experience If the Mortal Kombat team saw that taking out bouncing boobs and short skirts will get them potential 100k in more unit sales, then bouncing boobs are gone. Agenda in that case would be to make more money as in thats the case for most instances. There are caveats all of this, for the most this is how it works.

Neil was very straightforward with what he set out to achieve. There's a video making the rounds where he spells it out. It's their money, their studio, their IP. ND have the right to do it.

But you're conflating two different concepts. One is the claim people of a certain demographic are virtually the same. The other is that they behave in similar fashion with regard to certain basic stimuli. Generally speaking, all heterosexual men like attractive women, just not the exact same kind of women. But not all heterosexual men vote Democrat, not all like cinnamon ice-cream, aren't all fond of How I met your Mother, Season 5.

 

[Jon Neu]

The woke tribe is pretty insane too, I'd say they both have a point (SJW: Racism\discrimination\prejudicism is bad, anti-sjw: The way you do anti-discrimination is vengeful AND discriminatory itself).

Then you have those who just learned that wokeness=bad therefore anything that remotely looks like it is automatically bad... They really care for the long story, and the counter reaction to a reactionary movement is just as bad and hollow as what they are responding to.

The both sides phallacy, how cute.

People who are against cancel culture are as bad as cancel culture guys. Yay!