If a player needs a certain seed to be seen as MVP they aren't really MVP
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NBA 2016-2017 Season |OT| What do the Liberty Bell and Ben Simmons have in Common?
- Thread starter Jarate
- Start date
If a player needs a certain seed to be seen as MVP they aren't really MVP
Hyperactivity
Banned
Rockets are currently giving minutes to Bobby Brown, Isiah Taylor, Troy Williams, will probably be giving Chinanu Onuaku (meaning underhanded free throws) by the end of the game. Playing them with Harden.
hahahaha
Also, Ryno is fucking amazing
hahahaha
Also, Ryno is fucking amazing
ryutaro's mama
Member
Nothing is a given, friend.
Dirk picked up his MVP in a hotel banquet room and honestly, I would be surprised to see Harden in the conference Finals when the gate keepers are the Spurs and the Warriors.
Gully State
Member
I feel like the NBA fandom would completely burn if this happened...
So yes...let's do that..
Hyperactivity
Banned
46 wins man.
I'm not saying it's a given.
I'm saying I wouldn't be too surprised, and same with many others, if Rockets make WCF. No one sees the Thunder getting that far.
NO.
It's always been that way for the most part. Harden got snubbed over Curry for that exact reason.
Gully State
Member
But Dirk's team that year had 67 wins in the regular season. Historically speaking, winning more games factors significantly in MVP voting.
I think the idea is that being the best player on the best team would be the only argument he really had given the disparity in numbers. Without that, what is the convincing case to be made there?
darkwing-buck
Member
Warriors are quietly steam rolling teams as they won 15 in a row, granted it's still regular season. Personally I think that there is no way they beat the '01 Lakers post record of 15-1. What do y'all think?
Hyperactivity
Banned
There's just too perfect of an analogue in Kobe '06. Worse teammates, ridiculous stats, ridiculous usage rate, 46 wins, 6th seed, loses it to Steve Nash on a 3rd seed 54 win Suns team.
Not only that, but Kobe was 4th in the voting.
Not only that, but Kobe was 4th in the voting.
Not happening.
ryutaro's mama
Member
And that is a problem.
The other awards like DPOY and 6th man rarely depend on overall win output. It takes purely into consideration how great the individual was. LeBron winning MVP on a stacked Miami team weighs more than a player that balls the fuck out and drags his team to a playoff berth they have no business even having without him?
Miss me with all that.
Nobody gives as shit about the regular season. If they lose again this year it will be the greatest 3 year stretch in history to net one title.
Harden generates wins, that's why his team is 3rd seed
He's also having a historic season btw
And yeah LeBron deserved it then, and he probably deserved more
I think they are the best team entering the postseason since that Lakers squad (and they have even more sheer talent), but the combination of 3 point shooting variance from game to game and the higher talent pool across the league means 16-1 is highly unlikely.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Rockets are getting to the playoffs without Harden?
Actually, fuck that.
Bulls getting to the playoffs without Butler ?(they're closer to the Thunder in wins than Thunder are to the Rockets)
Bucks without Greek Freak?
Pacers without Paul George?
Jazz without Gobert?
Trailblazers without Lillard?
Hell, even Spurs without Kawhi? I've been watching the Spurs, they get carried hard by Kawhi quite often.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Gully State
Member
It's odd that I remember that Lakers team squeaking into the playoffs and that the narrative was that they were not playing well at all. But then I look at their record for the last couple weeks of that regular season and they went into the playoffs winning 56 games with an 8 game winning streak.
ryutaro's mama
Member
With Gordon, Ariza, Cabela and Lou Williams (since the AS break) yeah, I would feel confident saying that the Rockets would have more wins without Harden than OKC would have without Westbrook.
Do they make the playoffs? I don't know, but I can definitely say there wouldn't be nearly as much slippage as there would be for OKC.
BlackNMild2k1
Member
it's 14 in a row right now, and I assume 15-1 is playoff off and conference final. not including NBA finals?
yeah that's not how it works
LeBron could probably lead the Thunder squad to 3rd seed if you swapped him with Westbrook
does that make Bron the MVP this season?
the post above you pretty much shows that there a lot of players in this league carrying their teams to playoff spots and good records, doesn't make em the MVP this season
90% of the reason behind Westbrook's MVP candidacy are his stats
his team is still 6th seed and will likely be eliminated round 1
Hyperactivity
Banned
6th man of the year the last few years:
2007 - Barbosa, on the Suns
2008 - Ginobili, on the Spurs
2009 - Terry, on the Mavericks
2010 - Crawford, on a 53 win Hawks team
2011 - Odom, on the Lakers
2012 - Harden, on the Thunder
2013 - JR Smith, on the 54 win Knicks
2014 - Crawford, on the Clippers
2015 - Lou Williams, on the Raptors
2016 - Crawford, on the Clippers (Kanter/Iguodala got robbed)
DPOY for the past few years:
2007 - Marcus Camby, on 45 win Nuggets
2008 - Kevin Garnett
2009 - 2011, Dwight Howard
2012 - Tyson Chandler, 36-30 Knicks
2013 - Marc Gasol, Grizzlies
2014 - Noah, injured Bulls, 48 wins
2015-2016 - Kawhi, Spurs
You're talking out of your ass
Gully State
Member
First rounds back then were 5 game series...
ryutaro's mama
Member
I would look at wins above replacement. Let's say we swapped Dragic for Harden and then for Westbrook?
Ninja Scooter
Member
the 6th man thing could be a total coincidence though rather than correlation or a sign of how writers vote. I mean, how many shitty teams are going to have great players coming off the bench? Most teams would start those guys.
ryutaro's mama
Member
The win totals are all over the road for those players and hardly some arbitrary metric of "this player was on a #3 team vs. a #6 team" that people like to use to say the MVP is Harden over Westbrook.
So yeah...try again.
Would this sway your opinion?
https://twitter.com/clutchfans/status/842788387128049665/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
BlackNMild2k1
Member
that's what I thought, but I didn't want to assume, as that would mean the mean the only way to beat the 15-1 is to completely sweep everyone 16-0 (since you can't win it all in only 15 games). That would be amazing, and I would LOVE to see it, but I doubt that happens.
ryutaro's mama
Member
No because no one making those predictions forsaw the emergence of Eric Gordon and/or Lou Williams getting traded there.
Gully State
Member
I feel like voters pretty much phone it in for 6th man if there isn't an obvious choice. Basically, Jamal Crawford wins it if there isn't a notable candidate (one that averages more than 10 points a game off the bench).
With MVP, historically wins matter. You can make an argument that it shouldn't but historically voters have taken that into heavy consideration.
With MVP, historically wins matter. You can make an argument that it shouldn't but historically voters have taken that into heavy consideration.
Rockets already had a better record(probably all season too) before Lou was traded, so not even sure why that's a factor.
Either way,
excuses
Great players elevate their teammates
Lou Williams hasn't been as effective and he came in while they were still comfortably 3rd seed
make more strawmans tho
ryutaro's mama
Member
Don't spoiler that shit.
No excuses. The proof is in the pudding. If Westbrook had the outside shooting support Harden has, it would be a very different conversation concerning records.
Plus, Olidipo has regressed a bit this year as well and Russ has STILL dragged this team further than they should be.
The Thunder win at a high clip when Westbrook trip dubs. I have no idea what the fuck you are taking about.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Thunder do better, Rockets do worse, Rockets have better record. Oladipo is shooting better. Harden slows his game down, plays more methodical, emphasize getting fouls more. Westbrook excels in D'Antoni system, his rebounds are down because Beverley is probably a comparable guard rebounder, his assists are up, but Rockets shooting is down overall.
Let me help you out there.
Ariza gets gassed with heavy minutes, and plays bad when he's gassed. Wondering what that looks like? Look at him last year, in the playoffs.
Capela benefits from being a big next to Harden. I mean, remember when he got injured, and then Harrell comes in and starts having career stats, not missing a step? Most bigs are going to enjoy being next to him. Capela and Harrell don't experience anywhere near as much growth without Harden.
Gordon starts with Harden out, and with higher responsibility, gets injured. Similar story with Ryno. When those two don't have as much responsibility, they have healthy seasons, and that's not a coincidence.
Lou Williams is a scorer off the bench, but he asides from a few flashes of running the pick and roll, he too often just creates his own shot, not shots for his teammates. He's been shooting 14.8% from the 3 since March 26.
Nene is likely injured without an easy partner in Harden, even if he rests a bunch.
All of our streaky shooters lose games that they won due to Harden being consistent. All of our injury prone players likely get injured without the attention Harden commands. Our young players don't experience nearly as much growth.
The main person who would step up would be Beverley. Watching our bench units, while Gordon and Lou sometimes pass the ball, run pick n' rolls, etc. only Beverley can really come close in running our offensive system.
Don't forget OKC having multiple players ranking better than any of our non-Harden players.
I honestly want OKC to get more talent to see what new excuses they can make for him.
Oladipo is taking a backseat for Westbrook's personal accolades and he's not the only one. His shooting #s I'm sure are career highs.
Hyperactivity
Banned
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/oladivi01.html
Oladipo regressed?
What are you talking about? He's been pretty consistent, asides from shooting better, and went from one of the main ball-handlers in Orlando to secondary ball handler in OKC.
Westbrook's teammates are great defensively. Not only that, but there's nothing to suggest that Westbrook would be shooting better than Harden if they were in the same situation, that he would be more efficient than Harden in the same situation. Looking at their entire careers, Harden has always been more efficient. Maybe Westbrook shoots better, but it's not going to be better than Harden, even though Harden is even more heavily contested on his shots than Westbrook (which is hilarious, given how many shooters the Rockets have overall).
Gordon was injury prone coming into the season. He also had long stretches where he was shooting like shit, and was allowed to keep shooting to get himself out of that funk. Because, y'know, it didn't affect our winning rate that much.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
I wonder why
You said Eric Gordon had a breakout year and that Harden has a better squad than Russ
I'm saying no he doesn't, Harden just elevates everyone around him. And yeah if you're having triple doubles I'd hope you're winning more with them than without them.
Hyperactivity
Banned
The Lakers tank knows no limits:
Tania Ganguli said:
Ninja Scooter
Member
the Suns did their job, now we just have to do ours.
ryutaro's mama
Member
ryutaro's mama
Member
I think we just got trolled.
Even if we manage a clutch L tonight and then against the Kangs, we still gotta contend with GS resting everyone on Wednesday and the Lakers playing "inspired".
friskykillface
Banned
Celtics have been on a huge winning streak since getting destroyed by the Cavs last Wednesday
😎
😎
Ninja Scooter
Member
I'm interested in what would happen if the Celts got the 3rd pick. Josh Jackson is the consensus third guy it seems, but he's got a similar projection/skillset to Jaylen Brown. Wonder if Danny would instead go with more of a scorer like Monk or Tatum.
I think Ainge drafts BPA looking at his history. So it's going to be Smith Jr.