I guess playoff success doesn't matter?
It's pretty clear the top 6 is LeBron, Leonard, Durant, Curry, Harden, and Westbrook in some order.
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NBA 2017 Playoffs |OT| WE DID IT
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I guess playoff success doesn't matter?
It's pretty clear the top 6 is LeBron, Leonard, Durant, Curry, Harden, and Westbrook in some order.
You don't think CP3 deserves to be in the HoF??????
We'll see. Durant just missed 2 games and is coming back from a knee, their coach is out. Utah and the Spurs are still out there, Clippers were taken out by injury, not fright of the super team. And if they do coast this year, I take that over a field of match ups like OKC/Rockets. Actually, I might take badminton over that.
What playoffs have you been watching? Si senor.
I was right there with you a couple of years ago. Then he beat the Spurs in game 7, but was sort of injured in the Rockets collapse. Last year he's hurt again, this year Blake is out. I'm starting to shift blame onto Glenn Rivers and Blake. Chris Paul is really annoying and kind of an asshole, but he shows up. Look at game 1 and last night against Utah, lost both but was great in the clutch.
He's been ahead of them all year in my estimation, this is just the latest evidence. If we're talking about ability anyway, not who is having a better year.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Magic Johnson
Nick Van Exel
Derek Fisher
Tyronne Lue
Chris Paul
Checks out. I'll allow it.
He probably does. I just don't buy that he's been the best point guard for the last decade.
I bet those other four players you have alongside him have had much more success in the playoffs. Probably just bad luck, right?
I'd say from 2008-2015 it was undisputed, maybe last year Curry took over though.
PGs can't carry teams deep into the playoffs. He had shitty supporting casts in New Orleans and it seems like every year the Clippers are dealing with some sort of injury in April. Not fair to blame it on him, he is usually fantastic in the playoffs.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
CP3 should take a pay cut and go the Warriors to win one
Just send everybody to the Warriors, if you lose to them, they take your best player next year
Just send everybody to the Warriors, if you lose to them, they take your best player next year
Actually yes? He had zero support in New Orleans and Clippers have had horrible injury luck most of his time there.
Playoff success are about the best overall teams in the league that year, you can't use that to deflate how great a player is. JR Smith won a title last year, does that mean he was the better player than Chris Paul was last year?
For example:
Pistons beat Bulls year after year after MJ went into superstar mode in the late 80's up until 1991. MJ was better than every player on the Pistons in the late 80's, he was entering his prime (he was better in the late 80's than his late 90's championship runs). It wasn't till his team got a lot better that they overcame the Pistons.
I'd take 1989 MJ over 1998 MJ any day, but 1998 MJ had better playoff success. You can't determine playoff success for a single players overall talent. Playoff success is determined by full rotation of players.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Hayward in four games this series without diarrhea.
26.5 pts, 8.3 rebs, 3.25 asts, 49% FG, 48% 3p, 96% FT
26.5 pts, 8.3 rebs, 3.25 asts, 49% FG, 48% 3p, 96% FT
Remember when New Orleans signed James Posey as the missing piece for CP3 and Tyson Chandler? He had just won a ring in Boston and that winning spirit was going to take them over the edge. Brilliant.
OKC/Rockets was a first round series. Most first round series aren't going to be great. What you're probably going to get because of super teams is very anti climactic conference finals matchups. At least last year one of the two conference finals was terrific.
Utah is a nice story but they simply aren't capable of winning more than 1 or 2 games against the Warriors with or without Durant. The Spurs simply do not have enough offensive firepower to keep up. If the Warriors are fully healthy, there's simply no team that can challenge them.
I would take Houston's chances against the Warriors over the Spurs or the Jazz because they are capable of keeping up with Golden State offensively. But even they don't have near the defensive talent the Warriors have.
I was really just referring to his NBA career. Neither the Nuggets nor the Knicks were/are in a position to win the title. Obviously you cannot blame him for that.
Edit:
I will admit though, I totally forgot about the 2003 title.
Nash? Nah.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
He's way better than Kidd.
Melo at his best was a star who people dismissed because he didn't have the ability to drag a bunch of role players to the finals like LBJ did. Out of that draft class, he was always going to be in Lebron's shadow, D Wade got a ring early and Melo was like well I'm probably the best 1 on 1 player out of us 3, but I've almost nothing to show for it.
I don't know how many good years he's put together though. He got old and hurt a long time ago.
Why can't you buy that he's been the best point guard for the last 10 years? Most of the best point guards in today's game were not even in the league 10 years ago. You can make the argument that Curry and Westbrook are better than him right now, but 10 years ago? 9 years ago? 8 years ago? 7 years ago? Even 6 years ago? No way. He's consistently been one of the top 5 point guards and was the best point guard in the league from 2008 thru 2011.
I don't think saying he's been the best point of the last decade is remotely controversial.
Cornbread78
Member
He gambled away all the ballots.
trash talking's gotta count for something!
Actually you CAN blame him for his teams not being good. Instead of signing with the Knicks in the off-season and letting them keep their young talent, he wanted to get paid and demanded a trade. New York gave away all their talent that they could have put around him to acquire him via trade, and therefore killing their chances of ever competing.
He also signed up for the max with New York when he could have taken less money to play for a contender. He made those choices, because money and playing in a big city was more important to him than winning.
As much as I love Stockton, if CP3 can maintain his current level or close to it for another couple of years, he'll easily pass Stockton.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Chris Paul should go play with LeBron.
friskykillface
Banned
Kyrie + shumpert for CP3 x someone
Love + someone for #3 pick + Bradley + Crowder
I think LeBron would have made those moves happen had they lost 4-1 against the Warriors
CP3 and I will finish with the same amount of NBA championships 😎
Love + someone for #3 pick + Bradley + Crowder
I think LeBron would have made those moves happen had they lost 4-1 against the Warriors
CP3 and I will finish with the same amount of NBA championships 😎
Ninja Scooter
Member
Why should he have to take a pay cut just for them to compete? That to me is a sign of an incompetent front office. Saying he should have taken less money just to prove to me or you or anyone else how much he cares about winning will always be flawed logic to me. Players have limited earning windows, I'll never blame them for taking every cent offered, I'll blame the teams for being dumb enough to offer it.
You're right. He's been really good for a long time. I don't think he was the league's best PG that often (especially recently) but he's been the only guy in the league (other then Williams) that entire stretch.
But I'd definitely rather have peak Rose, Curry, Harden, than CP3.
Cornbread78
Member
Ok, which one of you bastards got WEEI talking about the Lebron vs. MJ debate? Dammit, I want quality radio on my drive home..
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html
CP3 is very underrated. He has the highest career Ortg in history. His playoff career has been an enigma but he does seems to always show up at least.
CP3 is very underrated. He has the highest career Ortg in history. His playoff career has been an enigma but he does seems to always show up at least.
I'm not blaming Melo for taking the most amount of money possible and wanting to live in New York. If that's what is important to him it's his life. But you can't sign a max deal with a terrible roster and convince me you care about winning.
And how is it flawed logic when there have been examples of players taking less for their teams benefit? Tim Duncan comes to mind.
Here's all the pity I have for the Knicks:
Ninja Scooter
Member
It's flawed because a player shouldn't have to do it. That's some bs the owners pulled to get fan perception on their side. The decision should not be money or winning, and I don't think its fair to hold players to that. Melo should be able to take what he is worth and hold up his individual end of the bargain. He's not the owner or the GM or the president of the team, is the roster around him stinks that falls on them. They pay him to play basketball.
It's actually not particularly enigmatic, despite the media narrative, when you look at it more closely. His numbers throughout his career are slightly better in the playoffs than in the regular season, and there really is only one season in which his team should have advanced to the Conference Finals (2015).
So I'm going to go through the last 10 years and give you my top point guards list.
2007-08 season - Chris Paul (First team all NBA)
2008-09 season - Chris Paul (Second team all NBA, no point guards on first team)
2009-10 season - Deron Williams (Paul missed half the season due to injury).
2010-11 season - Derrick Rose (Paul third team all NBA behind only Rose and Westbrook)
2011-12 season - Derrick Rose (This was Paul's worst season.
2012-13 season - Chris Paul (First team all NBA)
2013-14 season - Chris Paul (First team all NBA)
2014-15 season - Stephen Curry (Paul Second team all NBA)
2015-16 season - Stephen Curry (Paul Second team all NBA)
2016-17 season - Not out yet but Paul will definitely be on one of the all NBA teams.
So out of last 10 years, he's been the best point guard 4 times, 2nd or 3rd best point guard another 3 times and in the top 5 another 3 times. Nobody can come close to competing with that resume over the last decade.
But he also had a choice as a free agent to leave the Knicks. They are an incompetent organization, and he chose to stay there. He also had a choice when he was in Denver to play out his contract and join New York as a free agent. He chose to demand a trade and the Knicks gave up all their assets. Now you can say the Knicks were dumb to do that and I agree, but if he cared about winning he could have gone where he wanted without ruining their roster.
MugiwaraCole
Member
What does any of this have to do with his performance on the court?
Nothing.
My point is he has made decisions that show winning is not that important to him.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I'm not saying he didn't have a choice, I'm just not going to hold it against him. I'm not going to feed into the ridiculous expectation that players should have to take less money (as if they aren't already making less than their true value, even on max contracts) in order to make the team better. That's not his job. He is paid to play, and I don't think anybody would argue that the Knicks haven't gotten exactly what they signed up for from Melo since signing him. He's held up his end of the bargain, they haven't held up theirs.
My assertion is that equating him taking the money he is worth with how much he cares about winning is ridiculous. Why didn't KD sign with Golden State for the league minimum so they could free up money to sign other guys too? Does he not care about winning? That's the road you are going down.
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