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NBA 2017 Playoffs |OT| WE DID IT
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Gully State
Member
If you're a star player, the team system is pretty much built to maximize your talents... I don't know why this only applies to the Spurs... Pop and the Spurs get props because they transitioned from a system revolving around Tim Duncan to one around guard play and 3 point shooting triggered by TP when he was in his prime.
Shamrock7r
Member
Exacly. A lot of people forget or don't know that the early 2000 Spurs, the 2007 championship team, 2011-14 team, and the current team all play very differently.
Caddywompus
Member
Sure you can say that for role players which Tony Parker would be on any other team. There's a ton of all-star we've seen under various systems so saying only 3 is just wrong and you know it.
Nah not saying that either, in his limited time people extrapolated his numbers if he would be a starter. He got a ton of praise for being another diamond in the rough find but he plateaued in development once he left the Spurs.
Shamrock7r
Member
I'm not wrong. So let me ask you. What specifically is the Spurs system and how specifically is it the only reason "role player" Parker was an All Star in his prime? I want to read your breakdown.
Can you even define the Spurs system from 2000 to now?
Gully State
Member
It's odd to see people discount Parker's talent. He was playing pro ball already at the age of 16 and came into the league at 17. World class speed and agility at the PG position.
Shamrock7r
Member
It's just a regurgitation of the lazy saying that's been used by a bunch of lazy people, used most recently on Kawhi Leonard.
What's funny is the dude's been throughly rebuked but of course he doesn't want to be wrong. Prolly looking up "what is the Spurs system" in google as we speak for his rebuttal lol
True Savior
Member
Parker gets no respect cause he was not born in US. Dude was amazing.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
But why would you not want to optimize his talents? What coach would do that? That makes no sense.
Gully State
Member
You take any star player and put them in a sytem that doesn't optimize their specific talents and they're not the same player. I don't know what point you're trying to prove here. Every team has a system in place to optimize their best players' talents. That's basic basketball coaching.
Because that's how real men play basketball, chump. You don't join a good team in free agency, you don't pass up the last shot, and you sure as shit don't optimize or analyticize or whatever you call it. What you do is stick out your tongue and dunk it on the other dude's face, what's so hard to understand?
Guys like Parker should be used to it, that's the little bit of blow back you get for spending your entire career with an organization and coach everyone in the basketball world is falling over themselves to praise harder than the next guy. It's not such a high price to pay.
MushroomSamba
Member
Now I'm curious...I'm trying to think of a player that has reached superstar status in spite of the team not trying to optimize their talents.
Caddywompus
Member
Parker barreled to the basket and perfected those tear drop floaters. That's why he nearly shot 50% throughout his career because he got lay ups. He did this at top speed and could get away with it because he was fast enough and had the most versatile PF in the history of the game and a variety of shooters around him to back him up if he didn't get fouled.
Like a said earlier he would be similar to Kemba Walker. He'd be forced to take more jumpers and expected to create more offense on another team. But he's not your prototypical PG nor is he a SG that could carry a team in scoring. He lacked a 3pt shot most of his career maybe he develops differently under a another team. Could you build a team around that play style somewhere else and have the equivalent success without being a champion? Maybe, I don't know.
If Kemba Walker was hitting clutch shots in the finals for a decade on a championship level team don't you think his career would be vastly different? So why is it unreasonable to expect TP be a different player if you took that away? How would you built a team around TP 's talent, what would it look like that results in the same all-star praise?
True Savior
Member
Jordan. Doug Collins system was to give the ball to him. Then Phil Jackson came. But I imagine he was a superstar already.
He kind of did, at least from the public eye.
But people who actually watch basketball know how good he is, how good he was in Indy and how baller he's been in Utah
Caddywompus
Member
But we see this all the time in the NBA. Look at how poorly constructed OKC is around Westbrook or how INDY just threw talent together in Teague, Young and Ellis and hope it would work out for George.
You can't just snap your fingers and have a team specifically designed around one players talents.
Those guys rise above poorly constructed rosters and shine. I personally don't think Parker would. He'd be a perpetual allstar snub that would only be mentioned when he hit clutch shots.
You think Kawhi is top 4 though...
No George Hill is way better than Tony Parker.
Hitta hot takes. Kawhi ain't that good. Blake is a top 10 player etc..
Most people do
Caddywompus
Member
SAC did it's best to ruin Cousins, if you want the most recent example.
Jacksonless Lakers and Kobe? Although you could argue a shitty team was exactly what Kobe needed. I don't know, there are plenty of superstars every year with a shitty supporting cast. Was anyone trying to optimize for Cousins over in Sacramento? Would you call this optimization:
Umm the public eye is the only reason Kawhi is considered the 2nd best NBA player.
Thinking for yourself is cool.
Almost literally everyone thinks this
Being contrarian is not equivalent to being smart. In fact it's usually really stupid.
Caddywompus
Member
Shamrock7r
Member
You took a lot of words to say that the Spurs system is "they played to his strengths". Come on man lol
Cornbread78
Member
I'd agree with this..
Just because everyone says something doesn't make it true either. I personally think Xbox One is better than PS4, but I'm not going to stop those who believe Sony has the better console. I challenge everything for the most part, I don't want to be spoon fed info and take it at face value.
Gully State
Member
The teams you just mentioned are designed around their best players' talents... I dunno a single team where this isn't the case. Other than Sac...speaking of sac, I still chuckle at the fact the Vivek got rid of the one coach that got Boogie to play hard.
Tell me more about the flat earth.
Caddywompus
Member
Westbrook definitely is not. He's surrounded by one dimension players. Your defensive stopped can't hit FT so he's a liability in the 4th so swap him out for McDermott who can't play D but can hit 3's. Adams and Kanter are the inverse of one another. One plays D and the other is there for Offense. Oladipo's talent is being wasted there and unless he develops a consistent shot this off season you need to move him before that potential label wears off.
They tired to bring in a PF that can step out in hit a long jumper in Gibson. Sabonis may be that for in the long run.
But part of that is on Westbrook. When he gets his team involved there every bit as good as other West Conf teams but when they struggle and he takes over he looses trust in them and never goes back.
I was just thinking how does OKC improve this team after the HOU series? I would move Oladipo but I'm having trouble thinking of someone available that could stretch the floor for Westbrook but not be a liability on D.
His own poll he created to back his bullshit up
"Thinking for yourself is cool" lmao being a fucking contrarian for the sake of being a dumbass ain't thinkin for yourself
There is no poll, which is again going with public opinion.
From what I watched Kawhi isn't much better if at all, than Klay or Paul George. Public opinion will tell you Kawhi is top 2-5 depending who you ask while the other two are barely pushing top 10.
I honestly believe you can put a ton of players in Kawhi's role offensively where the Spurs wouldn't miss a beat. As great of an individual defender he is, for the Spurs to get somehow better defensively(statistically) when Kawhi sits tell me his defense isn't that valuable again unless the opposing team has an elite scorer to worry about.
This is such an idiotic world view, to keep it completely real.
I think the Spurs really do make it difficult to assess a player's value, because they put their players in the best position to succeed. Tony Parker's prime was similar to Mike Conley this season. He wasn't going to carry a team anywhere, but he was great. I think he would have been pretty similar anywhere in the league
Kawhi is a top 4 player on the Spurs. But if you put him on OKC does he make Durant level impact? Is their a dramatic change to the Pacers or Bulls records if you replaced George/Butler with him? Hard to say, because the Spurs have been so smart and so effecient about his role and allowing it to grow. They also have had to give him a constant greenlight to take on a bigger role, do more. He was never going to do so at the expense of the team. Which is what also makes him unique.
Kawhi is a top 4 player on the Spurs. But if you put him on OKC does he make Durant level impact? Is their a dramatic change to the Pacers or Bulls records if you replaced George/Butler with him? Hard to say, because the Spurs have been so smart and so effecient about his role and allowing it to grow. They also have had to give him a constant greenlight to take on a bigger role, do more. He was never going to do so at the expense of the team. Which is what also makes him unique.
What that's nuts
I'm sorry what
It's basically what people who think the earth is flat say.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Fucking REALLY? Wow
Wow. That's pretty big.
There is no poll saying "Is Kawhi only consider "XYZ" because he plays for the Spurs?" For as small market a team like the Spurs are, they are heavily promoted through the media. This conversation is going in circles, but as I've stated countless of times, to go along with that very mediorce FMVP he won, it's easy to say some nonsense like Kawhi is top 5.
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