OG Shaka Zulu
Member
KDs decision was infinitely worse than Lebron's. Lil B should reinstate the curse on Durant.
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NBA Finals 2017 |OT| Same As It Ever Was
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MegaManTrigger
Banned
Because they (KG and Allen IIRC) were traded to the Celtics? It's not like they had a choice like Lebron and Durant did when they joined their teams. To me, I don't get why people pile on Durant, when Lebron was the one who started this entire bullshit about creating a superteam by committee during free agency. Lebron's move to Miami is what started the paradigm shift in players recognizing that they need more help if they want to be competitive.
I'm tired of the Mavs championship always being asterisked as a Lebron/Heat mistake. Mavs were fire that entire playoff run.
I'm trying to equate the idea that, just like Lebron, Durant did what was in his best interest and best for his career. Thus if such a move is a bitch ass one, then what would have been the better move?
Greatest Ever
Member
Your loss.
The stars had to align across four seasons for this current incarnation of the Warriors to exist.
We're literally watching unique history the likes the league has never seen - and may never see again - and people cannot stand to look because the star power is too blinding.
It's compelling drama to boot.
We're literally watching unique history the likes the league has never seen - and may never see again - and people cannot stand to look because the star power is too blinding.
It's compelling drama to boot.
Exploratory
Banned
You realize he said it's the hardest road because people like you would call him a bitch right? It's way easier to just stay in OKC.
Caddywompus
Member
Super teams were nothing new, it just usually happened at the end of a players career once they had been paid. Lakers with GP and Malone or the Rockets adding Barkley or Pippen. Lebron had an opportunity to take a play cut and collude to create the Super Friends in their prime. That lack of competitive rivalries and buddy buddy nature is what rubbed people the wrong way.
Durant took advantage of an increased cap on a team that had underpaid All-stars from the previous deal. It took advantage in a similarly unique opportunistic cap space but the difference was Durant wasn't trying to build a championship team from the ground up, he was ring chasing in his prime.
Lolol not even close to the same thing. Seriously . Non of those players were kd tire and joining a 73-9 team that just kicked there ass.
People forget it was once LeBron / kd as the best players in the league. Not forgetting curry and kd almost won mvps back to back and joined the same team coming of those seasons.
Elegant Weapon
Member
It's against my superstitions to do too much posting or predictions.
I hate the Warriors but may the best team win
KD is a sucka though
About as delusional as the people defending it
Green is just as valuable to GS as Curry is. He leads their defense and facilitates their offense.
If GS had won last year, Green unquestionably would have been Finals MVP.
Superteams already existed way before, and it's not just because post prime superstars joined forces. GMs that are usually from big markets make it happen with prime superstars team together, like Shaq+Kobe, Jordan+Pippen+Rodman, Kareem+Worthy+Magic, Boston Big 3, etc. The only difference right now is that before, only the best front office and big markets can do those moves, while right now players can control their destination more especially if their former GMs suck at recruiting/drafting.
Exploratory
Banned
Posts like these are why I imagine Reddit created an upvote/downvote system. Omg someone save me...
Hyperactivity
Banned
Green is really fucking valuable, don't get me wrong, and he's more comparable to Curry, especially when Curry struggles a little, than many would think, but
no.
I tried both and had to bail about 20 minutes in. He comes across as whiny and naive. I hadn't even thought about if players buy into the narrative the sport and media are pushing, but here he is saying the fans don't love him as a person in a tone like it's some revelation. Just wait until he learns about Santa Claus.
I'm sure he'll get over it, but for the time being I'm good without hearing KD talk about anything outside of the game.
They're both vital to how GS works. When either goes cold or has issues, GS falls apart. Look at that Game 3 with Portland where Green lost his cool, almost on cue the Warriors start to fall apart.
Caddywompus
Member
None of those teams are considered Superteams except for Boston because those were build via the draft. Shaq signed with LA who had just traded to get the 13th pick in the draft a High School student. MJ and Pippen both drafted by the Bulls, Rodman wore his welcome out in SA and the one team that thought they could handle that nut case was Phil and MJ. Magic and Worthy were drafted onto a playoff team with Kareem and won their first Championship during Magic's rookie year.
GM's have more to do with creating superteams than you're giving them credit. Players can't freely choose to join forces where ever without careful timing.
BadAss2961
Member
Yup. He traded up again in the move back to Cleveland too, but that was disguised by the easy coming home spin.
One thing that turns me off with LeBron is the way every move he makes is calculated around his legacy. He wants both the super team and the hero's respect, whereas Durant doesn't seem to care about the latter at this point or what people think. He's been lashing out at his critics for the last couple years or so and just wants to win now.
But those are still superteams built by the team GMs. The manner in which they were built were different from what we are seeing in some teams right now, but still they were considered superteams. It's not easy for just any team to get and keep a superstar, let alone two or more. I those are not superteams, then their dynasties or decade-long dominance wouldn't have happened.
I did mention the heavy involvement of the front office, so I'm giving them the big credit for those. It's just that right now players have more power while GMs does more of accommodating than actual recruiting.
Greatest Ever
Member
Naive about what? The dude brings up points about fans being whiny as hell because of what they want, not what he wants.
It's easy to say this stuff online, I'm not super happy about his decision, but it's refreshing to hear how it would be if someone tried saying this to his face. KD is a real dude.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Superteams are nothing new, but the difference is that in the past, you had superteams usually because GMs were trading for star players on top of their already established core. In today's NBA, the balance of power (as far as recruiting is concerned) has shifted from the GM to the players. They're the ones who end up buddying up and recruiting other guys to come play for them. Not to say that one is better than the other, because at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter: The GM and the player are both lessening competitive rivalries in order to prioritize winning a championship ASAP.
That's one thing that rubbed me the wrong way. Lebron clearly knew Miami was about to face problems (on top of the whole Riley talks rubbing him the wrong way): Wade was a shell of himself in the 2014 playoffs, and just Lebron and Bosh wasn't going to be enough without a healthy and prime 2 guard vs. tougher Western Conference teams (I can see the hypothetical 2015 Miami Heat losing to Golden State esp with Bosh's health concerns). Going to Cleveland with Irving on the upswing and Love on the way was a smart idea, but at the same time, it was under that superteam mentality as you mentioned that everyone seems to gloss over because he "came home."
Caddywompus
Member
Those are not superteams. By your standard every single Championship in the last 30+ years is a Superteam if they have two or more All-stars.
If Stockton and Malone won a ring, Superteam. If Payton and Kemp won a ring, Superteam. If Nash, Stoudimire, Marion won a ring, Superteam.
Except the players don't control who has the cap space to create these Superteams. Now GMs make multiple moves to create the cap space instead of collecting talent via trade. You're right the players control their destiny more now even with failed Superteams in Anthony and Stoudimire never attracting talent or Howard and Harden losing out on Anthony or Bosh.
Not just all-stars, but superstars and 1st ballot Hall of Famers. Not all, but most NBA champions in 30 years are superteams, and it's pretty much an accepted reality because the NBA is a superstar-driven league.
And there's a reason why those you mentioned never won a ring. Because of the dominance of superteams during their primes.
Caddywompus
Member
Building around an Elite generational talent you drafted is different than building a Superteam with a finite championship window via free agency. They are not both considered Superteams.
If they are not superteams, then what are they? Just good teams who happen to win multiple titles and became dynasties?
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Durant should have gone to Washington.
They'd be really good and he wouldn't look like a dick.
They'd be really good and he wouldn't look like a dick.
Naw KG and Ray did that.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
How? KG and Allen had no autonomy over where they went unlike Lebron and Durant.
Caddywompus
Member
Those are teams who were lucky enough to draft or build around a top 10 HoF. Magic, Bird, MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and Lebron, own 30 of the last 37 championships.
Those are just Championship teams.
No one considers their formation a Superteam outside of Lebron due to the way they were built.
Caddywompus
Member
That's just how people want to define a "superteam", but those teams are still superteams. Built differently, or traditionally as how it was back then, but still the results show for themselves. Hakeem probably is the only one on those you mentioned who won a championship without really having a superteam (he almost had if Ralph Sampson stayed healthy). They may have lucked it out, but those teams still have at least 2 top-level players with strong supporting cast around them.
BassForever
Member
Outside of bullshit concepts of having competitive balance why would you choose to go to any team that isn't Golden State or Cleveland?
mashoutposse
Ante Up
It's ridiculous that KD gets bashed for making exactly the right decision.
He's on an exceptionally well-coached team surrounded by great players with no ego on the court who play the game the right way, with the nucleus in its prime. He enjoyed the winningest regular season of his career followed by a historic playoff run, with his team posting a record 12-0 start going into a Finals series in which he's a heavy favorite. He's playing in a city and for ownership that facilitate incredible off-the-court opportunities. And he gets all of this while being paid all the money.
Durant won. He was right. Every other option was inferior by a wide margin. It's distasteful to pressure this guy into doing something so clearly suboptimal as turning down the GSW opportunity. Moms everywhere instruct their sons to avoid this kind of negative peer pressure.
He's on an exceptionally well-coached team surrounded by great players with no ego on the court who play the game the right way, with the nucleus in its prime. He enjoyed the winningest regular season of his career followed by a historic playoff run, with his team posting a record 12-0 start going into a Finals series in which he's a heavy favorite. He's playing in a city and for ownership that facilitate incredible off-the-court opportunities. And he gets all of this while being paid all the money.
Durant won. He was right. Every other option was inferior by a wide margin. It's distasteful to pressure this guy into doing something so clearly suboptimal as turning down the GSW opportunity. Moms everywhere instruct their sons to avoid this kind of negative peer pressure.
There's no question it was the right move in regards to his chances of winning.
But it was unquestionably a bitch move to move to already the most stacked team in the league that just set the best record in history AND eliminated you in the playoffs.
LeBron formed a super team because he was tired of playing with scrub ass teammates in Cleveland, and he also didn't go to the Celtics who just eliminated him so I don't see why people act like the two decisions are even close.
People are always going to be negative about KD's move because it was a bitch move. He won't care and that's fine, but not many are going to think highly of him because of it.
LyleLanley
Banned
The point of all this, as far as I can tell, is that LeBron should've gone to the Celtics.
beat
Member
Yes, KG was traded to Boston, but he did have some agency in the decision. He was a threat to leave if he didn't like the situation he was traded to. Because his contract was nearly up, he basically had a near-veto power by either agreeing to or not agreeing to an extension, aka a sign-and-trade. (Also, less important, Minnesota felt a little guilty about doing wrong by him by wasting his prime with terrible roster construction.)
https://www.si.com/nba/2015/07/31/b...rnett-danny-ainge-ray-allen-paul-pierce-trade
When superstars get traded, sometimes they have some say in where they go.
DasPenguin
Member
Calling the second Bulls three peat team a super team is laugh out loud funny. Do you mean the team that was at .500 when Jordan returned? The team that traded Will Perdue for Rodman straight up? The same Rodman who was extremely valuable vs the Sonics and a complete no show vs the Jazz two years in a row? Bulls were starting Kukoc even though he couldn't guard a chair. That's how bad Rodman was the last two postseasons.
The same Bulls team was ranked fourth in the Eastern conference before the 72 win season started. It was filled with journeymen that nobody wanted (Harper, Kerr, Brown and Longley, for example). They just happened to be the perfect role players for a perfect system for them. Having the two best perimeter defenders didn't hurt either. But that is in no way a super team. Adding a player to a .500 club doesn't make it a super team, no matter how good that player is.
Also not giving credit for the Mavs is just stupid. They had the perfect players and game plan to shut down LeBron. James has the exact same weaknesses today, but nobody can pull off what the Mavs did. Crowd him outside with an athletic defender who is the same height, funnel him into the shot blocker who is always in the paint and make him shoot jumpers only. The "always in the paint" part is almost impossible to do with the current rules but somehow the Mavs did it.
He had a better run in Miami than he would have had in Boston, did they even have cap room? Not to mention that Lebron + Wade + Miami is way sexier and you know it.
That's as well and succinctly put as I've seen. If Blake and Kawhi are healthy, I think most of the hate is already in the past. If anything, competitive balance is more broken in the East, it just so happens that the Clippers are let down by injuries and poor management and the Spurs' hall of famers are done so it will take them a couple of seasons to revamp.
Have we been watching the same player? Lebron wouldn't post up Kidd and Barrea in that series, wouldn't go by them either. His one on one game has improved enormously since then.
Of course the Jordan-less Bulls team is not a superteam, but as soon as he came back it returned to that form. Isn't that how we defined that Heat team to be a superteam? Bum knees Wade playing .500 basketball that added LeBron and Bosh and a bunch of old dudes that nobody wanted.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
no he isn't. There is no system for the warriors without Curry, at least at elite level. Facilitating their offense is passing on 4v3s sonce the guy running the show is double teamed from half court. Dray would be nowhere near as good if he went to 28 tes other than Cavs, Curry would chnage the entire team the second he'd step on court.
It's starting to get cringeworthy how underrated Curry is post 16 finals. Clear second best player on PS and noone talks about him.
SyenceLabb
Member
Curry makes the Warriors a regular season threat. Green makes them a playoff threat. That's honestly how I see it. He's the heart and soul of that team and fills so many gaps that would otherwise be weaknesses.
That's why he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. Anyone that knows the mathematics of the salary cap knew that the warriors were in the unusual position of severely underpaying their MVP allowing them to grab another recent former MVP for max. That would never happen in history. People criticizing Durant for making the right decision are out of their minds and just stirring up conflict.
No question he decimated the thunder and the western conference finals competitiveness but his personal decision has nothing to do with that. If anything it's the leagues fault for such rules.
I adore the '08 Celtics "superteam". All these great players, who in earnest gave a shot at leading their teams to a championship, and failed. All still performing at a very high level, and seeing in each other the team of skilled players they may have been lacking their entire career.
They got to quickly put it together and see for themselves how to win. But on their own...none of them were a Lebron/Kobe/Shaq. They needed each other and complemented each other's skillset well.
The way I look at the "superteams", in any sport on the schoolyard in a simple way, you pick the best players/leaders. They select their team. There's an element of "who do you pick", but there's also an element of it should be relatively even. Allowing the team captains to be the essential difference makers of who wins. If with their first pick, they just picked each other, that wouldn't sit well with anyone. It wouldn't be any fun. Superteams just betray those schoolyard principles.
Durant choosing golden state is a basketball euphoria choice, but it's not a competitive choice at all. We can enjoy the all-star game, but we don't want to see it year round. Durant made his life good, but it seems to show some essential lacking competitive gene in him, not to want to best his peers. There was nothing sitting with him all summer, saying "God, we should have beaten Golden State".
But to be fair to Durant, his situation was poisoned by Russell Westbrook. There was no moving him, or establishing your identity in OKC separate from him. And Golden State were the antidote to that selfishness, unintelligent style of play. KD intellectually sided with GS, and he is very right on that one.
In Lebron's case, the front office surely would have done whatever Lebron wanted. He was the undisputed leader of his team, his city, etc. He could have dictated the style of play, and generally did. But there was no talent around him. What's odd is Lebron could attract talent as well as anyone in the league today. Why couldn't he then?
It seemed to be a decision influenced by the public scrutiny also, waiting on him to win his first one. Nitpicking his game, the moments, debating Lebron's legacy night to night. Making it essentially joyless after awhile. For him to fantasize "let me go to Miami where life's nice, let me play with some olympic-level talent, and absolutely crush competition. Then tell me why I'm not great" had to be real tempting.
Its also unique pressures you didn't face in Jordan's day, this social media/internet era. He probably doesn't leave in the 90's in that way. Not to mention, there were no hold outs who didn't think he was great, it was just a cold question of "how great?". Our idea of pushing greatness is to hold impossibly high expectations. Especially for someone called "The Chosen One" and wearing #23.
The superteams in essence say "stop judging me", "take the spotlight off me". They'll chip into winning championships, but they don't have to deal with any obligations during crunch time.
What I think makes Lebron so much more likable for his last championship, is there was no more hiding. He was winning for the right city, he was undisputedly the leader and difference for a team that wasn't expected to win. Very different from the hoopla of Dallas/Miami. The block was very exposed, and under the spotlight.
Anyway. My expectations for these finals are either 4-game sweep by GS...or possibly a 7-game underperformance on GS's part. The thing I'd hate to see most is underwhelming performances from Curry and KD, and them crying in game 7 when they "pull it off". And the media talking about what champions they are.
If GS plays up to level, its probably a sweep. At most 5 games. But it will be fun to watch what Lebron does these Finals regardless.
They got to quickly put it together and see for themselves how to win. But on their own...none of them were a Lebron/Kobe/Shaq. They needed each other and complemented each other's skillset well.
The way I look at the "superteams", in any sport on the schoolyard in a simple way, you pick the best players/leaders. They select their team. There's an element of "who do you pick", but there's also an element of it should be relatively even. Allowing the team captains to be the essential difference makers of who wins. If with their first pick, they just picked each other, that wouldn't sit well with anyone. It wouldn't be any fun. Superteams just betray those schoolyard principles.
Durant choosing golden state is a basketball euphoria choice, but it's not a competitive choice at all. We can enjoy the all-star game, but we don't want to see it year round. Durant made his life good, but it seems to show some essential lacking competitive gene in him, not to want to best his peers. There was nothing sitting with him all summer, saying "God, we should have beaten Golden State".
But to be fair to Durant, his situation was poisoned by Russell Westbrook. There was no moving him, or establishing your identity in OKC separate from him. And Golden State were the antidote to that selfishness, unintelligent style of play. KD intellectually sided with GS, and he is very right on that one.
In Lebron's case, the front office surely would have done whatever Lebron wanted. He was the undisputed leader of his team, his city, etc. He could have dictated the style of play, and generally did. But there was no talent around him. What's odd is Lebron could attract talent as well as anyone in the league today. Why couldn't he then?
It seemed to be a decision influenced by the public scrutiny also, waiting on him to win his first one. Nitpicking his game, the moments, debating Lebron's legacy night to night. Making it essentially joyless after awhile. For him to fantasize "let me go to Miami where life's nice, let me play with some olympic-level talent, and absolutely crush competition. Then tell me why I'm not great" had to be real tempting.
Its also unique pressures you didn't face in Jordan's day, this social media/internet era. He probably doesn't leave in the 90's in that way. Not to mention, there were no hold outs who didn't think he was great, it was just a cold question of "how great?". Our idea of pushing greatness is to hold impossibly high expectations. Especially for someone called "The Chosen One" and wearing #23.
The superteams in essence say "stop judging me", "take the spotlight off me". They'll chip into winning championships, but they don't have to deal with any obligations during crunch time.
What I think makes Lebron so much more likable for his last championship, is there was no more hiding. He was winning for the right city, he was undisputedly the leader and difference for a team that wasn't expected to win. Very different from the hoopla of Dallas/Miami. The block was very exposed, and under the spotlight.
Anyway. My expectations for these finals are either 4-game sweep by GS...or possibly a 7-game underperformance on GS's part. The thing I'd hate to see most is underwhelming performances from Curry and KD, and them crying in game 7 when they "pull it off". And the media talking about what champions they are.
If GS plays up to level, its probably a sweep. At most 5 games. But it will be fun to watch what Lebron does these Finals regardless.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Curry improves the warriors far more than any player on that team. Every statistical analysis shows that he has an insane level of improvement on his team. Drays offensive game for example would be garbage in any other team, because absolutely noone would leave completely open to shoot 3s while the 2 best off the ball players in the league run all around the court making massive amounts of spacing issues on a reg basis. When Curry is on the floor, % of his teammates shooting skyrockets. Lebron who every slobers on the idea that he makes everyone better (he does), is second. Want to take a wild guess who number 1 is? Curry and he raises their % by almost twice as much as Lebron.
Dray offers a ton defensively and covers a lot of little holes, ie screens, switching, pass, reb, block, steal. Of course a great player will raise a team's chances for the ship, Kyrie also turns the Cavs into a much more dangerous weapon. Doesn't mean he is anywhere near Lebron. Frankly comparing Green and Curry's impact is straight up insulting. People have forgotten that Curry's the only player in like 7 years that legit dethroned Lebron for a bit for the best player until he got injured. I kinda wish Curry would go to another team next summer just to show what kind of insane impact he has as a player and on the other hand show how much people are overrating the shit out of his teammates.
I'm also excoted what a fit Curry is going to do to Kyrie in these finals now that he's actually fit. People who think they will even out are going to be disappointed of they're rooting for the Cavs
ryutaro's mama
Member
This guy continues to get it. Best LeBron poster since The Chosen One.
I await his comments should the Warriors win.
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