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NBA Playoffs |OT| AKA Derrick Rose's family time

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G

Gigglepoo

Member
Marz said:
Irving has one of the nastiest crossovers in the league. I would put it right below Westbrook's and Curry's.

He's definitely not overrated, has one of the better offensive games in the league.
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"Offensive game" goes beyond scoring. For instance, Curry is exceptional at getting his teammates involved so even if his shot isn't falling, he's still contributing on the offensive end. There are other players, like Westbrook, who is a great rebounder. Or others, like Wade, who are excellent defenders.

These players all help in ways other than scoring. But Kyrie? He's worthless when his shot isn't falling. Saying he has one of the better offensive games is ignoring everything related to offense outside of scoring.
 
D

DJwest

Member
Marz said:
Irving has one of the nastiest crossovers in the league. I would put it right below Westbrook's and Curry's.

He's definitely not overrated, has one of the better offensive games in the league.
Click to expand...

Really, below? Kyrie has the best handles in the league imo.
 
M

Marz

Member
Gigglepoo said:
"Offensive game" goes beyond scoring. For instance, Curry is exceptional at getting his teammates involved so even if his shot isn't falling, he's still contributing on the offensive end. There are other players, like Westbrook, who is a great rebounder. Or others, like Wade, who are excellent defenders.

These players all help in ways other than scoring. But Kyrie? He's worthless when his shot isn't falling. Saying he has one of the better offensive games is ignoring everything related to offense outside of scoring.
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I dont see what Wades defensive ability has to do with me talking about Irving's offensive game lmao but ok.

His ability to penetrate at will against the majority of defenders opens up defenses and creates ball movement. So while he may not always get the assist on plays, a lot of times his penetration led to an open shot. He's definitely not "worthless" when his shot is off. I know the Cavs just lost and this is a Neogaf NBA thread, but try to keep the hyperbole to a minimum.

He has the ability to hit big shots and take over games. Not a lot of players in the league can do that.
 
T

Two Words

Member
Marz said:
Uh nah. His crossover is nasty combined with how quick his first step is.

That slight hesitation crossover he does in the open court is literally unguardable.
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It just doesn't compare to the handles of Steph or Kyrie. I mean, he still has no problem getting his shots.
 
G

Gigglepoo

Member
Marz said:
He has the ability to hit big shots and take over games. Not a lot of players in the league can do that.
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I never doubted his ability to score, just his ability to do anything else. It's amazing that he can open up the offense by driving but doesn't get assists, isn't it? Guys like Curry and Westbrook get teammates wide-open baskets when they drive. Funny how that works.
 
M

Marz

Member
DJwest said:
Really, below? Kyrie has the best handles in the league imo.
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They could be interchangeable, all three of them do stuff with the basketball that I haven't seen since Iverson and Marbury.


Gigglepoo said:
I never doubted his ability to score, just his ability to do anything else. It's amazing that he can open up the offense by driving but doesn't get assists, isn't it? Guys like Curry and Westbrook get teammates wide-open baskets when they drive. Funny how that works.
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If he didn't have to share point guard duties with Lebron 50% of the game he would have higher assist totals. Lebron dominates the basketball a lot of the time (deservedly so) so Irving slides into a pure scorer role.

Lebron even brings the ball up on a lot of possessions.
 
Lionel Richie

Lionel Richie

Member
Marz said:
If he didn't have to share point guard duties with Lebron 50% of the game he would have higher assist totals. Lebron dominates the basketball a lot of the time (deservedly so) so Irving slides into a pure scorer role.

Lebron even brings the ball up on a lot of possessions.
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Irving averaged 5.8 APG before playing with Lebron. He was young as fuck, but I'm not sure he showed anything to make you think he'd be that much better passing the ball without Lebron.

Plus, Lebron is a legendary passer for his position, but he sure as hell shouldn't be playing point on any team. He just never had to play with a great passer. I don't think anyone thinks Irving isn't a very good player, but he isn't as good as the really best guys. Curry, Westbrook, Paul and Lillard are all IMO clearly better than him. No shame in being in the Top 5-ish though.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Marz said:
They could be interchangeable, all three of them do stuff with the basketball that I haven't seen since Iverson and Marbury.




If he didn't have to share point guard duties with Lebron 50% of the game he would have higher assist totals. Lebron dominates the basketball a lot of the time (deservedly so) so Irving slides into a pure scorer role.

Lebron even brings the ball up on a lot of possessions.
Click to expand...

Assist totals don't mean jack. Russell routinely has high assist totals. Hell guys like Marbury or Steve Francis would average like 8 or 9 assists a game. Didn't mean they were efficient on offense, or that they had good vision or were good playmakers, all it meant is that they dominated the ball. Kyrie is in this same mold.
 
A

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
Well if you call Kyrie a bad finisher I have to imagine you haven't seen him play much if at all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
J

J2 Cool

Member
CherryWoodFuton said:
Who better complements Lebron? Kyrie or Wade?
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Healthy Wade..undoubtedly Wade. Much better passer and would impact the games in a number of ways. Kyries just like a loose force of nature. Hopefully its affecting you positively and doesnt get injured.

These playoffs thus far his energy seems to be aimed in the right direction.
 
M

Marz

Member
Lionel Richie said:
Irving averaged 5.8 APG before playing with Lebron. He was young as fuck, but I'm not sure he showed anything to make you think he'd be that much better passing the ball without Lebron.

Plus, Lebron is a legendary passer for his position, but he sure as hell shouldn't be playing point on any team. He just never had to play with a great passer. I don't think anyone thinks Irving isn't a very good player, but he isn't as good as the really best guys. Curry, Westbrook, Paul and Lillard are all IMO clearly better than him. No shame in being in the Top 5-ish though.
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His second year in the league at the age of 21 with nobody to even pass the ball to? Let's not forget those Cleveland teams he had no help. Yea that's pretty good. Curry averaged the exact same number his second year in the league.

Ninja Scooter said:
Assist totals don't mean jack. Russell routinely has high assist totals. Hell guys like Marbury or Steve Francis would average like 8 or 9 assists a game. Didn't mean they were efficient on offense, or that they had good vision or were good playmakers, all it meant is that they dominated the ball. Kyrie is in this same mold.
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I'm aware of that but the post I was responding too was questioning why Irving doesn't get assists.

Irving is 23, his ceiling is huge.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Marz said:
His second year in the league at the age of 21 with nobody to even pass the ball to? Let's not forget those Cleveland teams he had no help. Yea that's pretty good. Curry averaged the exact same number his second year in the league.



I'm aware of that but the post I was responding too was questioning why Irving doesn't get assists.

Irving is 23, his ceiling is huge.
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I'm not so sure it is. The issues he has are not related to his physical ability. He just is a terrible defender and an incredibly inefficient scorer. If he doesn't give a fuck about those things now, when he is in his physical prime, not sure why it's going to get better.
 
J

J2 Cool

Member
Marz said:
Irving is 23, his ceiling is huge.
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All depends on health and ability to adapt his game. He has a shot, even if its wavered in recent seasons, but he plays recklessly. He had about every skill you would want coming in, but he hasn't evolved his understanding of the game much.
 
O

OpinionatedCyborg

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
I'm not so sure it is. The issues he has are not related to his physical ability. He just is a terrible defender and an incredibly inefficient scorer. If he doesn't give a fuck about those things now, when he is in his physical prime, not sure why it's going to get better.
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His efficiency is good as a scorer, actually. Whether his impact on offense is good or great is another question entirely.

I'm not bullish on Iriving making large improvements. He's been in the league 5 years and hasn't shown a lot of improvement.
 
Lionel Richie

Lionel Richie

Member
Marz said:
His second year in the league at the age of 21 with nobody to even pass the ball to? Let's not forget those Cleveland teams he had no help. Yea that's pretty good. Curry averaged the exact same number his second year in the league.
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Curry at that time also TS%ed .595, a mark that Irving hasn't reached yet. And that was in a Keith Smart led fuckball monster that featured 2 PGs, one of which being Monta fucking Ellis. It's a miracle Curry even had those APG numbers.

In fact, Irving only surpassed Curry's career low in TS% once and that was last year, a year which ended in an injury because of course it did. Curry is also a much better defender, which isn't saying much because basically everyone in the NBA is a better defender than Irving (except his teammate Love). Who I like very much, but I don't think is ever reaching the conversation for being the best in his position in the NBA. Like I said, no shame in still being pretty good.
 
T

Two Words

Member
Marz said:
CP3 is a loser. Want to talk about overrated this guy does nothing but lose year after year.
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He plays in the West. Everybody but the Spurs, Lakers, Warriors and Mavericks have been losing. Lebron would have made it to the Finals maybe twice in the West.
 
M

Marz

Member
Two Words said:
He plays in the West. Everybody but the Spurs, Lakers, Warriors and Mavericks have been losing. Lebron would have made it to the Finals maybe twice in the West.
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Sure and Paul has been 0 times and will never get there.

Very overrated for a player who has never accomplished anything in the postseason besides lose.

Edit: lol this guy's never even been to the Conference finals.
 
T

Two Words

Member
Marz said:
Sure and Paul has been 0 times and will never get there.

Very overrated for a player who has never accomplished anything in the postseason besides lose.
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Do you think Chris Paul has been the primary reason for this? Do you think he has not stepped up or shrank in the moment?
 
M

Marz

Member
Two Words said:
Do you think Chris Paul has been the primary reason for this? Do you think he has not stepped up or shrank in the moment?
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The great ones eventually get over the hump. It's pretty telling if you can't even reach the Conference Finals.

I remember him having a bunch of crucial errors against the Thunder a couple years back in the semifinals.
 
P

panthapanda

Member
I don't think CP3 is overrated at all. There are plenty of great NBA players that have never won a ring. Steve Nash and John Stockton come to mind.
 
C

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
OKC better be ready because GSW play their best ball in important road games. Can't wait!
 
T

TTG

Member
I want to see Curry play a consistent game tonight. Some behind the back crossovers for the big guys, no rushed shots. No more feast or famine post knee sprain Curry.
 
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