I was like this. I told myself "maybe I should play Galdur's Gate before trying more recent CRPGs". As a result, I never finished a single CRPG. I'd suggest you go with the modern ones.
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NeoGAF's Essential RPGs: 2017-2018 edition - Vote open until Oct 13th - Win Free RPGs
- Thread starter kswiston
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I was like this. I told myself "maybe I should play Galdur's Gate before trying more recent CRPGs". As a result, I never finished a single CRPG. I'd suggest you go with the modern ones.
My JRPG to CRPG ratio is probably something like 50:1, and I generally have a hard time getting into CRPGs when I do play them, though I tend to love them eventually. Divinity: Original Sin was different though. I fell in love immediately and proceeded to play for 80+ hours of pure joy.
I've seen so many mechanically mediocre or even outright flawed games rank relatively high, that Demon's being a regular darling despite its deliberate (!) vagueness and aged mechanics is more than fine with me, to be honest.
Still, that's quite the drop in votes, damn. Kinda understandable though, I'm guessing it ranked 5 either the year it released or the next, right? I almost included it in my votes but decided against naming more than one game of the same series, otherwise I'd have voted for 4 Souls games lol.
Also, I've been reading the first few pages, and goddamn, Fiveside's paragraphs on Nocturne were a very insightful read... I never even entertained the thought of the battle system being designed around the themes on the game, but now it makes so much sense. It's incredible how much new appreciation I find for this game every time I read someone else's detailed thoughts on it. Thanks for sharing that!
Still, that's quite the drop in votes, damn. Kinda understandable though, I'm guessing it ranked 5 either the year it released or the next, right? I almost included it in my votes but decided against naming more than one game of the same series, otherwise I'd have voted for 4 Souls games lol.
Also, I've been reading the first few pages, and goddamn, Fiveside's paragraphs on Nocturne were a very insightful read... I never even entertained the thought of the battle system being designed around the themes on the game, but now it makes so much sense. It's incredible how much new appreciation I find for this game every time I read someone else's detailed thoughts on it. Thanks for sharing that!
texhnolyze
Banned
I always try to keep my JRPG to CRPG ratio to 50:50. But in reality, I still prefer JRPG the most and end up with 70:30 most of the time. I couldn't tolerate bad to mediocre CRPGs, but I'd still play JRPGs like every one of Star Ocean and Tales of games.
Just give Divinity OS a try, you'll learn to understand what makes CRPGs.. CRPG.
CRPG is all about freedom, and Divinity gives you exactly that.
Just give Divinity OS a try, you'll learn to understand what makes CRPGs.. CRPG.
CRPG is all about freedom, and Divinity gives you exactly that.
Hmmm...my brother has played that one too so it'd be something to discuss with him.
Also always been interested in its turn-based system and the praise it gets.
I'll have to keep it in mind.
I've made so many plans in this thread lol.
I'm guessing the most likely to pan out are "I will play yet more Atlus" and "I will finish TitS, buy PSIV and play that and CSH."
Although I do think SMT1&2 might be a way to get into my SNES back-catalog (chiefly FE).
Also always been interested in its turn-based system and the praise it gets.
I'll have to keep it in mind.
I've made so many plans in this thread lol.
I'm guessing the most likely to pan out are "I will play yet more Atlus" and "I will finish TitS, buy PSIV and play that and CSH."
Although I do think SMT1&2 might be a way to get into my SNES back-catalog (chiefly FE).
Demon's Souls #5 ranking was indeed in the first version of this thread, which came out in Feb 2010.
It's also worth noting that Kuwabara let people vote for 30 games in his version of the Essential RPG thread (20 regular votes and 10 HMs), which happened to be the last version. As such, I think that most people had room for more repeated franchises, or at threw what would have been HMs this go around into their main lists last time. His sample size of users was also about half of what we got this thread. I don't know if this made much of a difference to the Souls games, but other series had more games than typical break the top 50.
Since I ran the list last (Dec 2014/Jan 2015), there have been two new Soulsborne games, and Bloodborne is going to place well into the upper half of the list this go around.
Original Sin was just the victim of bad timing. OS2 took a handful of votes from it, but OS2 hasn't been out long enough to build up a substantial base of people that had finished the game before voting wrapped up. If we have a 2019 thread, I expect OS2 to do very well.
It's also worth noting that Kuwabara let people vote for 30 games in his version of the Essential RPG thread (20 regular votes and 10 HMs), which happened to be the last version. As such, I think that most people had room for more repeated franchises, or at threw what would have been HMs this go around into their main lists last time. His sample size of users was also about half of what we got this thread. I don't know if this made much of a difference to the Souls games, but other series had more games than typical break the top 50.
Since I ran the list last (Dec 2014/Jan 2015), there have been two new Soulsborne games, and Bloodborne is going to place well into the upper half of the list this go around.
Original Sin was just the victim of bad timing. OS2 took a handful of votes from it, but OS2 hasn't been out long enough to build up a substantial base of people that had finished the game before voting wrapped up. If we have a 2019 thread, I expect OS2 to do very well.
Flying Fish
Neo Member
I picked up Planescape: Torment thanks to this thread, and I pumped up the diplomacy and magic stats for maximum dialogue options. So is this the RPG with the most text in it? I'm digging it.
texhnolyze
Banned
Yeah, that's what I thought and it's fine by me.
Hopefully, more people will be able to enjoy it when it hits console(s) next year. No confirmation yet, but it's logically a lock.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
As someone who skews way more towards JRPGs than CRPGs, I strongly recommend going with something that isn't ancient. One of the PC Shadowrun games or Dragon Age: Origins would be my recommendation. I've also heard really good things about Divinity Original Sin 2 but haven't played it yet.
oh yeah, forgot that voting rules (and maybe point allocations?) weren't even consistent across threads, making year to year comparisons even more off. it just makes more sense to chat about your favorite or least favorite games as they show up rather than trying to extrapolate changes in GAF taste based on whether three more people voted for a game in any given year.
Enjoy. Its the best written game I've ever played.
The 2013, 2015, and this thread all basically have the same rules. Both of those had about 200 participants. This one had about 230.
I added the underrated highlight this go-around, but all recent games, and anything that had ever been in a previous Top 50 were excluded. Dragonfall and Xenoblade Chronicles X were the only two Top 50 games that qualified for that change.
EDIT: I agree that the specific rankings don't matter a ton, especially if we are talking single digit rank changes from last time. They are there just for fun, because I got a request to add them back in the 2012 or 2013 thread. Presumably to save people the hassle of digging through the past threads for comparisons.
There are some general trends of games tapering off over time. Mostly titles released during the PS2 era (or first half of the 00s on PC).
Flying Fish
Neo Member
I can certainly see the foundations for that. I've got my personal answer to "What can change the nature of a man?" that I hope the game lets me pick.
Tomorrow will probably be a 5 banner day. 10 was a bit much today.
Now that the thread introduction is done, the CSH keys are distributed, the votes are tallied, the raffle is in progress, and the Top 50 is well on its way, I think that I would like to start devoting less than 90% of my free time to this project
Even at 5 games a day, we will be on track to have a complete Top 50 by next Tuesday or Wednesday. About a week and a half from the end of the voting period. The last time I did this, it took me about a month to get the Top 50 up.
Now that the thread introduction is done, the CSH keys are distributed, the votes are tallied, the raffle is in progress, and the Top 50 is well on its way, I think that I would like to start devoting less than 90% of my free time to this project
Even at 5 games a day, we will be on track to have a complete Top 50 by next Tuesday or Wednesday. About a week and a half from the end of the voting period. The last time I did this, it took me about a month to get the Top 50 up.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Did Path of Exile get much if any votes? It's such a great ARPG mechanically. Definitely deserves a spot in top 50.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I voted for it and there were like 3-5 other people who did as well, but that's it.
I voted for it, and I know a couple of other people did, but there's very little chance it will make top 50. Hopefully it makes top 100 at least. Considering that Diablo II made it to #47 I hope people who voted for that are at least aware of how great PoE is.
As for which CRPG to start with, there's so many good recent CRPGs that I really don't see a reason to start with the older ones. Original Sin 2 is one of the greatest CRPGs ever made for instance, and is pretty accessible as a starting point. Aside from that there's Dragonfall for something short and easy to get through, Pillars of Eternity if you want Baldur's Gate style gameplay, Might and Magic X for some old school DRPG gameplay and a bunch of other lesser well known, but still very interesting games (like Expeditions: Conquistador).
Morrowind charted higher than i thought it would, Nice! Dragonfall being in the top 50 is amazing. Though it doesn't seem as underrated as i thought it would be, charting that high. Now i think, i should have given my underrated vote to a more unknown game.
At first, i thought of giving that spot to
Vampire The Masquerade: Redemption, seeing as everyone only ever talks about Bloodlines. Oh well.
Fallout 2 in the top 50 is great but probably means that the first didn't make it. Anyway, great that one of the older ones made it.
Seeing Final Fantasy 8 in the top 50 is surprising, as most often i see it mentioned, it is in a negative light. I for one loved it, especially because of its draw system. I loved the freedom it provided. But most fans hated it it seems, as it made the game unbalanced.
At first, i thought of giving that spot to
Vampire The Masquerade: Redemption, seeing as everyone only ever talks about Bloodlines. Oh well.
Fallout 2 in the top 50 is great but probably means that the first didn't make it. Anyway, great that one of the older ones made it.
Seeing Final Fantasy 8 in the top 50 is surprising, as most often i see it mentioned, it is in a negative light. I for one loved it, especially because of its draw system. I loved the freedom it provided. But most fans hated it it seems, as it made the game unbalanced.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Demon's souls just was more willing to do weird ass shit, even moreso than Dark souls. I'd still probably push Dark souls a hair above demon's, but you don't see shit like the old monk and storm king in dark souls. Even stuff like Maiden Astrea was amazing narratively.
The boss battles overall in dark souls was a step down honestly. It made up for it with its world though.
The boss battles overall in dark souls was a step down honestly. It made up for it with its world though.
Dark Souls just took bosses into a different direction - one emphasizing the strengths of Souls combat instead of the weird ass shit. I personally think that's great in a way, since combat is one of the series biggest strengths, but it does mean some of the more unique tings from Demon's Souls are gone.
I felt like Bloodborne was a good compromise - it wasn't afraid of putting in weird "gimmicky" bosses (Witch of Hemwick, Micolash, Rom) and it also drastically improved the more standard, straight up combat bosses. Bosses like Ludwig, Maria, Orphan of Kos and Gascoigne are not only some of the most fun bosses in Souls games, they are some of the most fun action game bosses in general. If abandoning the weird shit is what got us boss fights like these, I can't really complain. It's also the one game in the franchise that has the least terrible/throwaway boss fights, which Souls games have always suffered from.
dancrane212
Member
I enjoyed the first half (third?) of Demon's Souls but the content after defeating the king and those gargoyle creatures felt like a step down. Nothing really stands out to me after from that part of the game, well, aside from getting repeatedly destroyed by that
boss. Definitely felt the hurt from coming to the game years after the fact.
PvP
I always preferred Manus from the DLC bosses. Never really understood why he's not more well liked generally. Artorias is still great though, obviously. He's also quite similar to the direction Bloodborne took the bosses I feel - fast, relentless and very dynamic, which is great.
Rad Shadow
Banned
Ff8 moved up 43 spots, what in the hell... lol
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I would imagine numbers of honorable mentions, highlight and underrated points would done that.
Rad Shadow
Banned
In no way should any main stream final fantasy be considered underrated.
Ah...well. This list sure is odd.
Ah...well. This list sure is odd.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Especially not the worst one with no redeeming values. But hey it has a card mini-game dude! (lol @ the excerpt is literally about that because the game itself is trash)
Nine? Nine. Thanks.
Mr.Deadshot
Member
But there are also many people who consider it the best FF - including me. It's a very divisive game.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
FF9 gets tons of praise everywhere. It's by no means underrated.
Glad you enjoyed the read, Opa-Pa! It really is such an incredible game, mind-blowingly incredible.
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Shame about Demon's Souls. I think its strengths have become even more pronounced now that there are 3-4 games succeeding it which haven't capitalized on several of the truly unique things it did.
Still though, DS1 and BB are above it, so the series did well enough for itself. And it's not at all surprising that BB ended up over Demon's.
Most people seemed to use the "Underrated" vote to prop up a game that they felt needed the extra support. You're basically telling people that it's incorrect for them to like Final Fantasy VIII...
Don't be disingenuous, there are several longer posts detailing the specific things people like about FFVIII. And for the record I beat my entire first playthrough without playing Triple Triad.
My ratio was about 50:50 when I was younger. Over the years I gravitated more towards JRPGs than WRPGs, my ratio now is probably about 75:25 (or I guess those ratios can be reduced to 1:1 and 3:1 technically lol).
What I've always found interesting is that I look back much more fondly on the WRPGs I played when I was younger, than the JRPGs. For instance I love both KOTORs, the second actually made my Top 10 list, but I dipped off of Kingdom Hearts pretty hard over the years.
The real change towards JRPGs was when I got into Final Fantasy in college. That was like 12 JRPGs all at once, counting spinoffs and such at the time.
Then I went back and played the SNES RPGs I missed, after Chrono Trigger and Earthbound my preference for JRPGs was pretty much cemented.
Anyway, I'd also recommend Divinity, maybe play it on Easy if necessary. That Shadowrun: Dragonfall game could potentially be another option given how lean it is, but I haven't played it myself yet.
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Shame about Demon's Souls. I think its strengths have become even more pronounced now that there are 3-4 games succeeding it which haven't capitalized on several of the truly unique things it did.
Still though, DS1 and BB are above it, so the series did well enough for itself. And it's not at all surprising that BB ended up over Demon's.
Most people seemed to use the "Underrated" vote to prop up a game that they felt needed the extra support. You're basically telling people that it's incorrect for them to like Final Fantasy VIII...
Don't be disingenuous, there are several longer posts detailing the specific things people like about FFVIII. And for the record I beat my entire first playthrough without playing Triple Triad.
My ratio was about 50:50 when I was younger. Over the years I gravitated more towards JRPGs than WRPGs, my ratio now is probably about 75:25 (or I guess those ratios can be reduced to 1:1 and 3:1 technically lol).
What I've always found interesting is that I look back much more fondly on the WRPGs I played when I was younger, than the JRPGs. For instance I love both KOTORs, the second actually made my Top 10 list, but I dipped off of Kingdom Hearts pretty hard over the years.
The real change towards JRPGs was when I got into Final Fantasy in college. That was like 12 JRPGs all at once, counting spinoffs and such at the time.
Then I went back and played the SNES RPGs I missed, after Chrono Trigger and Earthbound my preference for JRPGs was pretty much cemented.
Anyway, I'd also recommend Divinity, maybe play it on Easy if necessary. That Shadowrun: Dragonfall game could potentially be another option given how lean it is, but I haven't played it myself yet.
Maybe start with something like Shadowrun: Dragonfall. Its only about 20 hours, linear-tight story with a great group of characters and easy to understand mechanics.
Its the good one that actually manages to have a cohesive comprehensible compelling story AND game and combat mechanics AND minigames AND side objectives.
That's like saying Mother 3 isn't underrated because it gets praise
it doesn't get >enough< praise
decoyplatypus
Member
I don't know if I'd go that far. It's got a pretty good soundtrack (once you get past the overrated "Liberi Fatali"). The junction system deserves some credit for novelty/interest, even if it's broken and not especially fun. Uh... the final dungeon was visually dramatic? ...yeah, I'm kind of coming up empty here.
My devil's advocate position is that FF8 is no worse than FF9, not that it's actually good :/
texhnolyze
Banned
Rad Shadow
Banned
Thanks for all the advice people. As a fan of RPG it is a very real way to broaden my horizons and, presumably, find a lot of new games that I really want to play.
I'm going to try and keep it more in mind this coming year.
...
Also, FiveSide, it is very interesting to read that you came to Final Fantasy later in life. I've had pretty much the exact opposite relationship with Final Fantasy, it being the RPG series that initially pulled me in but which has also dwindled in importance to me drastically since my later teen years.
I'm going to try and keep it more in mind this coming year.
...
Also, FiveSide, it is very interesting to read that you came to Final Fantasy later in life. I've had pretty much the exact opposite relationship with Final Fantasy, it being the RPG series that initially pulled me in but which has also dwindled in importance to me drastically since my later teen years.
Final Fantasy VIII didn't qualify for the underrated vote. Two people voted for it anyhow, but those votes were downgraded to regular votes. FF8 has been in the bottom part of the top 50 several times.
Last year, FF8 had its worst placement by 20 spots. So while 36 is high for the game based on past lists, it's closer to typical than 79 is. Like I said, FF8 has always had its fans, even if it always gets notably fewer votes than the rest of its 6-10 cohort.
Last year, FF8 had its worst placement by 20 spots. So while 36 is high for the game based on past lists, it's closer to typical than 79 is. Like I said, FF8 has always had its fans, even if it always gets notably fewer votes than the rest of its 6-10 cohort.
Woof, some people act like FF8 got them beat up in school. Its one of the most interesting FF games with a lot of customizability of your characters. It did something different at the time and it does deserve some praise. Its not like it bumped the darlings 6 and 7 off the list. No need to act like its some sin against gaming.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
FFIX can considered underrated in the sense that it's surrounded by VII, VIII and X, which are blueprints of "modern FF" while IX was the odd duck that says screw all that, FF is all about princesses, knights and castles!
I think you never played it, so you should really give it a shot. The PC version is really solid and improved the gameplay with the fast forward option.
I was going to respond and basically say this exact thing, but figured there's no point...I've been in the FF fanbase long enough to know that some things aren't worth the keystrokes.
I'll take one potshot for old time's sake though:
Another viable approach is to whine when your favorite entry in a series does very well, but another entry that you hate manages to make the list. PM some of the FF fans and they'll show you the ropes
I think the first Fallout could still be manageable for someone new to CRPGs, but yes overall I'd recommend going with one of the modern games.
My dilemma is that I'm not sure if something like, say, KOTOR is a good gateway game. It's definitely accessible, but it might be a little too different from what we usually associate with CRPGs (i.e. late-90s Infinity Engine).
I'd recommend that people newer to CRPG's (and really just younger) play the modern ones first. Baldur's Gate 1 will straight up kill your interest if you start with it. Fallout 1 and 2 will too.
All of these suffer from, I made my guy wrong and a rat kills me in the cave right outside the entrance syndrome I quit, gameplay flaw.
That being said, I think all of them are fantastic to get into once you get yourself acclimated. Go play something newer, and then come back to them. And then after you're done with BG and BG2, go even deeper and fire up the even harder stuff.
Wow, I got the highlight quote on Dragonfall -- i'm proud. I backed the SR:R kickstarter for 50 bucks , backed the DF one for 90, and then backed HK for 150 (still rocking the leather messenger bag). Dragfonall is a great entry point into CRPG's -- they have the basics down but cut back on a lot of the obscura.
All of these suffer from, I made my guy wrong and a rat kills me in the cave right outside the entrance syndrome I quit, gameplay flaw.
That being said, I think all of them are fantastic to get into once you get yourself acclimated. Go play something newer, and then come back to them. And then after you're done with BG and BG2, go even deeper and fire up the even harder stuff.
Wow, I got the highlight quote on Dragonfall -- i'm proud. I backed the SR:R kickstarter for 50 bucks , backed the DF one for 90, and then backed HK for 150 (still rocking the leather messenger bag). Dragfonall is a great entry point into CRPG's -- they have the basics down but cut back on a lot of the obscura.
Since we are sharing stories... My personal experience with RPGs is quite odd. My whole family played video games from before I was even born, I came into a household that had a Sega Genesis with a lot of games. My mother and my older brother were both already big fans of RPGs. My mom played Shining in the Darkness, drawing her own maps and the like throughout her pregnancy with me and bought Shining Force 1 and 2 both on release day. My older brother was very into playing CRPGs on his best friend's computer like Ultima, and Might & Magic and had also started his lifelong foray into Dungeons and Dragons. So my earliest gaming years included playing Shining games, Sword of Vermillion, Warriors of the Eternal Sun, and the Phantasy Star series with my mom and my brother. They actually taught me to read and do basic math very young so I could play the games on my own (and also join my brother in playing Magic the Gathering and Talisman).
Eventually my dad bought me my first video console of my own, a Super Nintendo. On which I played Breath of Fire 1 and 2 for RPGs but missed out on a lot of the other great ones at the time. My first experience with Final Fantasy was actually when my older brother and I made some money picking pine mushrooms and spent it at a garage sale to buy a NES and an cartridge for FFI. I then had an N64 instead of a Playstation and missed out on a lot of RPGs there. My brother had the Playstation, but he was at the stage where little brothers weren't cool enough to play his console, but I did watch his entire playthrough of Final Fantasy VII and have my mind blown. He gave me the Playstation when he moved out and I played every RPG he had owned, but missed out on a lot of those still. The first generation where I actually played a lot of the RPGs as they came was the Dreamcast/PS2/Gamecube/Xbox generation, where I managed to own all of the consoles as they came. Morrowind owned my life for a while.
Then came the 360/Wii/PS3 generation. I was a teen that thought I was too cool for Nintendo and couldn't afford that ridiculous PS3 price tag, so I got a 360 and started playing mostly shooters, Halo and Gears of War were my jam for a time. I regret how many good RPGs I missed out on at the time, though I did get both a Wii and PS3 later in the generation, by that time my anxiety and depression were at a high and I could barely bring myself to play games.
Six years ago I started university, on a high from getting out of an awful relationship and finally moving out of my parent's house I started going back to all those RPGs I missed. Turns out I greatly prefer the JRPGs to the WRPGs. I haven't stopped since and have gotten to the point where I play almost entirely JRPGs over any other genre. It was only then that I played through the entire Final Fantasy series for which I had only played three or four of before. It was only then that I played Dragon Quest games other than I and III for the first time. It was only then that I experienced games like Persona 3 and 4, Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger, Suikoden, Earthbound, Final Fantasy Tactics, Terranigma, Xenogears, etc. There were other games and genres I played around with too. Beat most of the Zelda games I hadn't, played most of the Metroid games, tried out a bunch of horror games and such. I also spent way too much of my student loans on video games and had to have my parents bail me out, so uhh, I learned to be more careful with my money thanks to RPGs too! It is also through playing all these games, combined with my increasingly programming based research that I have come to realize I want to make games myself and that I have a passion for it that dwarfs anything else I have wanted to do in my life.
Eventually my dad bought me my first video console of my own, a Super Nintendo. On which I played Breath of Fire 1 and 2 for RPGs but missed out on a lot of the other great ones at the time. My first experience with Final Fantasy was actually when my older brother and I made some money picking pine mushrooms and spent it at a garage sale to buy a NES and an cartridge for FFI. I then had an N64 instead of a Playstation and missed out on a lot of RPGs there. My brother had the Playstation, but he was at the stage where little brothers weren't cool enough to play his console, but I did watch his entire playthrough of Final Fantasy VII and have my mind blown. He gave me the Playstation when he moved out and I played every RPG he had owned, but missed out on a lot of those still. The first generation where I actually played a lot of the RPGs as they came was the Dreamcast/PS2/Gamecube/Xbox generation, where I managed to own all of the consoles as they came. Morrowind owned my life for a while.
Then came the 360/Wii/PS3 generation. I was a teen that thought I was too cool for Nintendo and couldn't afford that ridiculous PS3 price tag, so I got a 360 and started playing mostly shooters, Halo and Gears of War were my jam for a time. I regret how many good RPGs I missed out on at the time, though I did get both a Wii and PS3 later in the generation, by that time my anxiety and depression were at a high and I could barely bring myself to play games.
Six years ago I started university, on a high from getting out of an awful relationship and finally moving out of my parent's house I started going back to all those RPGs I missed. Turns out I greatly prefer the JRPGs to the WRPGs. I haven't stopped since and have gotten to the point where I play almost entirely JRPGs over any other genre. It was only then that I played through the entire Final Fantasy series for which I had only played three or four of before. It was only then that I played Dragon Quest games other than I and III for the first time. It was only then that I experienced games like Persona 3 and 4, Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger, Suikoden, Earthbound, Final Fantasy Tactics, Terranigma, Xenogears, etc. There were other games and genres I played around with too. Beat most of the Zelda games I hadn't, played most of the Metroid games, tried out a bunch of horror games and such. I also spent way too much of my student loans on video games and had to have my parents bail me out, so uhh, I learned to be more careful with my money thanks to RPGs too! It is also through playing all these games, combined with my increasingly programming based research that I have come to realize I want to make games myself and that I have a passion for it that dwarfs anything else I have wanted to do in my life.
Older computer RPGs require a lot of patience and investment into the character creation stage. You have to read the manual/digital manual to understand what each of the primary stats does. You have to read each of the class descriptions and understand how each of those primary stats affects a given class. In some of the D&D games, you may want to sit there doing dice re-rolls to prevent yourself from getting a character with a terrible stat-spread (unless you are hardcore and intend to take what you get that first time).
Even after all of that, you can mess up your build the first time through. It's even worse if you have to make an entire party, and aren't familiar with archetypical group builds from other games or MMOs. One of my favorite games is Might and Magic VI. If you want a challenge, start up a game of that with a party of 2 archers and 2 druids.
Even after all of that, you can mess up your build the first time through. It's even worse if you have to make an entire party, and aren't familiar with archetypical group builds from other games or MMOs. One of my favorite games is Might and Magic VI. If you want a challenge, start up a game of that with a party of 2 archers and 2 druids.
I agree, generally. Something like KOTOR feels more like a transition period between the classics age and the modern age. You can see the fork between the more modern games (like TW3) and then a step back to the more party based classic gameplay (D:OS, Dragonfall) happen there. It's not my favorite period, but i do think it's worthwhile to explore -- later, afterwards.
Stop complaining about "why XXX makes the list". You know damn well why any of these games make the list. All of them are popular games with a sizeable fanbase. Also, it's not like you are the only one with all these hot takes. I hate The Witcher 3 ten times more than you hate your worst nightmare, but I won't pretend to be shocked when I see it on the list.
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