• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NEOGAF's Official Music Production Thread: calling all producers

Greg

Member
Getting a track to be as loud as possible basically takes no skill at all, Professor Chaos. If you can open a plugin and turn 1 knob, it can be as loud as your heart's content. Trust me, those people aren't doing some secret voodoo plugins or sacrificing virgins to satanic hardware to achieve maximal loudness.

Getting a VU meter to slam all the way to the right when the song starts and stay there until the song ends is not a difficult task.
this comes off as extremely ignorant if you can't recognize that the real experts are able to maintain dynamics (or the perception of them) while maximizing loudness

could you reference the "music production and post production" you do for a living? I think that's important if you're claiming to be a professional

it's one thing to be against the loudness wars when you're dealing with fatiguing audio, but there's more expendable room across the average track than you think, and you don't get it by turning 1 knob
 
@NuclearSpy

Your condescending reply and general ignorance leave me no wish to debate this any further. Welcome to my ignore list.

Hey professor chaos, if it is your opinion that I have a condescending tone with you and that I am generally ignorant, then thats unfortunate. Again, its really sad that people think I'm here to ruffle your feathers without even hearing your side of things or proving my position if you simply asked why I think so. Its no problem at all to show you guys examples if you can't believe it. I have much better things to do and spend my time on then people who feel strongly that their position is right but get too upset over it.

So, you've put me on your ignore list and thats fine. You can't handle dissenting opinions, yet you have no problem calling people ignorant and walk away instead of proving the position you feel is correct. I think people in general are wiser to see what kind of jig this is. If you don't believe me, have a dialog with me and ask me to show examples. Just because I disagree with you does not mean your entire world needs to come crashing down. Let's get a grip here, people. Your skin has to be much thicker then this. Especially on something like music of all things.

Fusebox said:
The suggestion that you can throw a one knob solution (I guess you're thinking along the lines of L1) on the master and compete on a club system with the big guys makes me think you just don't have much respect for dance music production whatsoever.

Not at all, Fusebox. If we are talking about the loudness wars here; I am more then well educated in what that practice entails. No disrespect at all to dance music here. My brother in law's desk is right behind me and he has his whole setup here. He does his dubstep and all that fun stuff here like literally 5 feet behind me as I sit. This does not bother me in even the slightest.

What does bother me is when people spread misinformation; which is spread unintentionally. I can understand why anyone would get defensive if I'm calling you a damn liar. That isn't what I am doing though. I am speaking out on my knowledge and experience on the subject. Just because there is a disagreement does not mean it needs to be the end of the world for anybody. We are either completely misunderstanding each other or somebody is very wrong here. It logically impossible for 2 different views that contradict each other to both be right.

Fusebox said:
And, honestly your posts come across as 'rock engineer tells dance producers they're using their compressors wrong'.

Well, first of all. Sorry that it comes across that way. Second, I don't exclusively work on rock music. A few years ago I did some work for some Sesame street toys. I'm talking about toys designed to play music and voices for children. They have their own opinions on what is acceptable for children and how they go about it.

Again, if you're talking about using compressors as an instrument for your guy's dance music, then thats all good. Somebody wanted to know how to use compressors in a general sense. We even agreed on this. Are we in disagreement here and want to dig that back up after we just settled it?

Fusebox said:
I bet you would pitch a fit and shit your pants if you saw some of Daft Punk or JUSTICEs compressor settings and really, even if there was some good advice buried among your condescending remarks I think you've missed the vibe of the thread altogether.

Fusebox, would you care to elaborate how Daft Punk or JUSTICE compressor settings are? Please go ahead and explain how what they are doing is achieving the loudest tracks. Allow me to clarify what I mean by loudest (hence the loudness war); Loudest as in ON AVERAGE.

Again, let me direct this specifically at you, because this is the 2nd time someone has said that I have a condescending remark here.

What is the vibe of this thread? Please go ahead and clarify for me.
Is this a thread where people can have opinions and when there is disagreements that cannot be reconciled, do we want to figure out who is right?

Or is this a thread where you are allowed opinions as long as nobody is wrong?

If it is the former, I'll be glad to put my opinions in and show why. You guys need to have some thicker skin, though. You cannot take this crap too personally.

If it is the latter, please let me know. If your vibe in here is just no disagreements allowed, then I cannot possibly help without ruining your vibe. I think its unfortunate because thats not a good environment for learning, but if that is what you guys want then I won't ruin the fun for you guys.

Greg said:
this comes off as extremely ignorant if you can't recognize that the real experts are able to maintain dynamics (or the perception of them) while maximizing loudness

Ok, if this is your definition of what the loudness war is, then thats something else. The loudness war in the strictest sense is not maintaining the dynamics of your mix. It is about being the loudest so that your music is noticed. This is not my opinion. This is factual Here, Here, and here. There is plenty more I cannot possibly show you them all.

Greg said:
could you reference the "music production and post production" you do for a living? I think that's important if you're claiming to be a professional

Here is an example of my production work that got unfortunately destroyed in the mastering process. You can hear samples of my mixes destroyed Here.

Greg said:
it's one thing to be against the loudness wars when you're dealing with fatiguing audio, but there's more expendable room across the average track than you think, and you don't get it by turning 1 knob

Again, I think there is a misconception on what the loudness war is as it pertains to this discussion. Here is an example of a limiter where there is 2 knobs. You only need to operate 1 of those knobs and in the matter of seconds you have loud music. Don't believe me? Demo it. Try it.
 

lil smoke

Banned
Looks like a huge semantics battle with some misleading infos.

Back to music. I'm thinking of getting an iPad to mess around with at work. I use Cubase and I know there's a Cubasis app. Anyone familiar?

I want to be able to get the stuff back into my main DAW.

-And.. Sampletank 3? Anyone care? I just want to use the old stuff in a new shell.

-Halion 5, anyone using that?
 

Fusebox

Banned
Back to music. I'm thinking of getting an iPad to mess around with at work. I use Cubase and I know there's a Cubasis app. Anyone familiar?

I want to be able to get the stuff back into my main DAW.

I'm not familiar with the Cubase iPad app but I have tried a few different sequencers and I haven't really found one that transfers multiple midi tracks to my PC but if theres a decent one out there I'd be keen to try it. Surprisingly Garageband was one of the easiest ones I used.

I usually just use the individual synth apps like MS-20, make a cool sound or sequence and then bounce that out as a wav file and throw that in my DAW to play with.
 
Budget? Cheapest that come highly recommended are the Yamaha HS50's.

Thanks. Been shopping around for some new monitors, but im curious as to what everyones speaker setups are like here? Or any preferred setups?

For a few years I worked on a pair of KRK 8s and they worked well. I had to downgrade to a pair of M-Audio BX5as with a mini-sub, and its been a mixed bag on getting an accurate mix.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Thanks. Been shopping around for some new monitors, but im curious as to what everyones speaker setups are like here? Or any preferred setups?

For a few years I worked on a pair of KRK 8s and they worked well. I had to downgrade to a pair of M-Audio BX5as with a mini-sub, and its been a mixed bag on getting an accurate mix.

At the moment I'm using HS80s but I've used the eq switches on the back to roll bass, boost mids and roll highs effectively making them sound closer to an NS10/HS50 speaker response. Because of the way my room responds to bass its way to easy to get booming bass if I don't aggressively cut on my HS80, and that easy booming bass energy never translates onto other systems. Now I have to work to get an energetic, booming bass and I can be fairly confident it's going to sound similar to that on other systems, just gotta keep checking my sub bass in a spectrum analyzer and my headphones.
 
I love Jon Hopkins. I've been listening to Immunity a ton lately. I can definitely hear the influence in this track. Nice work :)

Thanks! I've updated the link in my original post, I've added a little more to the track :)

Immunity is a fantastic album. I wanted to replicate that minimal, glitchy cinematic soundscape he's so great at crafting.
 

Nekofrog

Banned
GAF,

Some of you know I'm currently working on a Final Fantasy remix album. I'm getting close to being done with it, but I'm in need of some help.

Are there any vocalists out there that would be able to lend their talents to a track? It's a remix of "You Can Hear the Cry of the Planet" from FF7 in the genre of progressive-melodic-rock and I'm looking for someone who is similar in style to Steve Wilson (Porcupine Tree), or Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth.

Here's the track for your listening:

http://tindeck.com/listen/dqiq

Thanks.
 

Dreaver

Member
Yesterday I fooled around with Logic a bit. I experimented a little bit and this minimal song was the result. I'm actually quite happy with this result, because my skills in music production are very minimal (no pun intended).

I have one question. Right now the song isn't mastered properly (volume is in red, about +6). What's the best way to stay out of the red zone without changing the balance between the sounds too much? Just lower the master volume until the volume doesn't hit the red anymore (0.00 or negative)?

Feedback is really appreciated!

Zippyshare link to song.
 

neos

Member
Yesterday I fooled around with Logic a bit. I experimented a little bit and this minimal song was the result. I'm actually quite happy with this result, because my skills in music production are very minimal (no pun intended).

I have one question. Right now the song isn't mastered properly (volume is in red, about +6). What's the best way to stay out of the red zone without changing the balance between the sounds too much? Just lower the master volume until the volume doesn't hit the red anymore (0.00 or negative)?

Feedback is really appreciated!

Zippyshare link to song.
I don't believe there is a short answer to your question, first of all be sure your mix is balanced before mastering. In a minimal track you want to be sure that the kick is one of the loudest part, if not the loudest. So check every instrument and be sure none is overlapping it in volume. if lowering the other instrumets makes them disappear, you'll probably need some EQing, or a different approach in arrangement. Once you've done this, your track will surely be better (and clearer, and louder) after mastering.
You also should check the previous page and take a look at the compression\limiting stuff that has been posted.
BTW, your track definitevly miss the kick, almost non-present in terms of impact (mostly towards the end when other instruments kicks in, so you'll probably need better equalisation..Give it some more love (ands i'm not talking about boosting up its volume, lower the rest!)
I usually target the kick at around-8\-10 dB and try to put everything else below, but i really don't know if this is good production or not, it's just what i do.D
 

Fusebox

Banned
Yesterday I fooled around with Logic a bit. I experimented a little bit and this minimal song was the result. I'm actually quite happy with this result, because my skills in music production are very minimal (no pun intended).

I have one question. Right now the song isn't mastered properly (volume is in red, about +6). What's the best way to stay out of the red zone without changing the balance between the sounds too much? Just lower the master volume until the volume doesn't hit the red anymore (0.00 or negative)?

I would do what neos suggested and relevel everything. +6db over at the master is no simple fix.

As a rule of thumb for house music I gain stage my kick so it's bouncing at -6db and all the other parts are peaking at around -12db and then I adjust further from there by turning down anything that seems too loud (instead of turning up any parts that are too soft), that usually gives me plenty of headroom at the master for a limiter to do its work.
 

neos

Member
Sorry! No, just updated again :)
Forgot to fix the link here again.

https://soundcloud.com/axionmusic/carpathians-demo
That's surely a fat bass you have there, i gave the track a quick listen but that seemeded a bit too much present. Just a bit. If you do lower it would you please post the new and keep the old version, so i can hear what's best?
Also at 2'45'' the bass looks to be on a wrong note, or at least it sounded wrong to me.
The piano that kicks in at 3'00 is awesomely beautiful.
Hehe, can definately hear a lot of Hopkins in there. I like what you've done with it.

Something I've made: https://soundcloud.com/k-raw/darth-vati-v2

Was inspired by Darkside but turned out a bit different I think. Still, lots of guitars ;-)
You meanDarksiderS the game because this quite reminded its OST, or what Darksider are you pointing at?
Guitars are nice!But i don't like your bass, i'm sorry. Neither the melody nor the sound. Don't get mad at me, just giving an opinion:/

Where is Whisker gone? This thread feels soulless without him posting:D
 

Xrenity

Member
You meanDarksiderS the game because this quite reminded its OST, or what Darksider are you pointing at?
Guitars are nice!But i don't like your bass, i'm sorry. Neither the melody nor the sound. Don't get mad at me, just giving an opinion:/
Haha, that's OK. Different strokes and all!

darkside that made the psychic album

honestly xrenity your song sounds way better than darkside imo.
Thanks man! Really trying to get production up there.
 

lil smoke

Banned
Just lower the master volume until the volume doesn't hit the red anymore (0.00 or negative)?
That's the fastest way. Just lower it. I would follow the guidelines mentioned, start the mix at lower levels and leave headroom. Gauge your loudest potential hit in the loudest section, ie. kick/snare, and go from there.
These days I'm WAY below 0dbfs, I mix nearly with nearly 20db of headroom.

Inherent things that can make a tune difficult to make 'competitively loud' without clipping or sounding small, are (casually and opinion):

Sympathetic arrangement - every part plays a distinct musical role (kick is one role, bass is another, they do not compete)

Distortion/harmonics - harmonics make sounds perceptually louder by masking the fundamentals (lowest/highest power bass frequencies). Mask is a bad word, but in essence less fundamental, more harmonic, because we are sensitive to higher frequencies. Harmonics by definition are related to the fundamentals by octave, so it is worth some understanding to take advantage of. For sounds that are very powerful (kick, bass, toms) that need to be heard without taking up headroom, you can mix these in much easier without swallowing the tune with too much low end power/headroom

Compression in stages - A little peak reduction at every stage, using appropriate attack and release times is a lot more forgiving than attempting to reduce a peak in one go. Use busses that go into busses, where each stage supports the last. These busses allow you to control signal level from the micro elements to the macro/group elements. This takes practice and organization but it pays off. Especially later when you need to make level corrections. Remember the duty of each compressor in each stage so you can make deliberate adjustments.

Low Shelves - gentler than HPF, these can be pulled down for a much more transparent/subtle power attenuation. You have the slope, frequency and level to balance, it's a softer curve and has less impact on the whole signal, than pass filters. Shelves are a ton easier to go into later and make a tiny adjustment, rather than brutally dragging a 24db up 10hz. With these gentle adjustments, you will be less likely to fool yourself into adding 'bass' because you had your filters pulled in too far.

Get rid of extraneous BS - overlapping drums, bass hitting under a kick, too much happening at breaks, a synth that plays no role other than just being cool, competing frequency ranges, notes that are out of tune, tail on the kick, low end on that snare. If you're making your own tunes, your in your own head. Get out of it and don't fall in love with everything you did. Ask yourself is it really necessary in order to express my idea?

Listening levels - Does the tune hold up when listening at low level with say the AC on? If your bass/kick disappear, if your low level background pad drops off, consider the distortion/harmonic thing rather than the volume fader. Low level monitoring is all about perception of loudness. It may be that the low end and kick are too loud at low level. Check to see if this is caused by fundamentals, or by harmonic distortion. This is very important in assessing potential loudness capability. Fundamentals eat headroom, we should not hear them at low levels. Look up Fletcher Munson.

Mono monitoring - listen to the difference in perceived power between a signal that is duplicated in both monitors, vs 2 similar signals playing back simultaneously. Mono signals are more directional, they register as more forward than stereo signals. When you reference mono you are making everything equal. Anything that wasn't equal (stereo) will be summed and cancelled. Be aware of the difference and make assessments on instrument priority here. If you need it up front and direct, make sure it remains so in mono. If it's to be placed behind, make sure it's not competing in mono. Even if all percussion is mono, they still need be placed for separation. Mono listening (with one speaker) forces you to balance based on actual power coming from cone. Stereo involves listening to a phantom image (area in between the monitors) of instruments that are mono or mono-like. Your brain does the summing, you listening position determines the quality. I can mix drums so much faster in mono, no second guessing, and when done and checking in mono, they are more spacious, wide and deeper than I could ever do with a phantom representation.

Come back later - Finish a tune and let it sit for a week or two, work on something else, separate yourself from that song. You may find that it becomes fresher, things may annoy you that you didn't hear, ugly distortions may be more apparent, the odd loud HH will stick out, the bass may be too loud, all percussion probably needs to go down 2db, you can get rid of more BS and prioritize the elements that you remember were the focus of your expression.

Practice - practice this stuff, gauge your results and apply your findings to the next project. You may find that you're avoiding the previous pitfalls from the start. You might start off my making busses, just because you already know that you needed to compress drums as a group on that last project. You might select some instruments that are mono this time, you may take time to make serious considerations to sound selection and arrangement, maybe you have this time decided that you don't need a bass to sustain under the kicks, maybe this time from experience, that kick did not need 50hz. Last time you may have been trying to EQ and EQ that kick, cutting this and that away from the bass, sidechaining random elements, fighting this and that. Prep your working area in a way that lends you to make deliberate adjustments that do not ruin the balance of your hard work, set yourself up in a way that separates low end from mind range from high end, keeping those processors separate, so adjustments can be fine tuned for perceptual balance...bass too low? OK, work on midrange. Maybe -.05db on that low shelf. Maybe bump up the distortion send. Remember the roles. Be able to control them specifically on micro and macro level.
 

Xrenity

Member
Thoughts? Tear it apart, especially the mixing/mastering

https://soundcloud.com/flightmuzik/high
Sounds really good to me, only I think the sidechain on the kick has a bit of a long release.

I dont really have anywhere to post this so figured id share here. I made this yesterday. I like it. recently started really getting into electronic music and this is one of my first attempts.
https://soundcloud.com/ccret33/hum
Heh, I like your Royals remix.

In this track I feel the drums don't sound as good as they could be. I like what you're doing with the vocals and other sounds though! Keep it up :)

I can recommend the ts808 plugin if that's something you're into. It's free and has a great 808 sound: http://tactilesounds.blogspot.nl/p/tactile-synthesizers.html

Also, from this great list of free VSTs, I love Thrillseeker VBL and IVGI to spice up some sounds. The last one espacially can give software drums some 'rough' edges.
 

BobDylan

Member
Sounds really good to me, only I think the sidechain on the kick has a bit of a long release.


Heh, I like your Royals remix.

In this track I feel the drums don't sound as good as they could be. I like what you're doing with the vocals and other sounds though! Keep it up :)

I can recommend the ts808 plugin if that's something you're into. It's free and has a great 808 sound: http://tactilesounds.blogspot.nl/p/tactile-synthesizers.html

Also, from this great list of free VSTs, I love Thrillseeker VBL and IVGI to spice up some sounds. The last one espacially can give software drums some 'rough' edges.

thanks I appreciate it. the royals remix was something I just cut up and sampled on some pads, nothing special added.

what I did on the drums for the other track was take out a lot of the high EQ. It really softened it and I just liked it for the track. Ive got a ton of vst like waves and what not. I cant remember what drum samples I used but there is a good chance it could have been from an 808 or 909. my job is working on sound for film mainly and every now and then ill record a band other than myself so I work in pro tools mostly. for electronic music I typical run out of reason and rewired into pro tools. sometimes ableton as well if needed.
 

Xrenity

Member
Most important thing of course is that you like it :) I thought it sounded a little muffled.

And there's a lot of 808s available. I used Abletons a lot until I found the other one. It sounds a lot better to me.

/edit
And I'd always EQ every part of the drums seperately and not as a whole.
 
Y'all crazy. I've been "producing" for like 13 years or something and I still don't know a damn thing about mixing. All I care about is composing stuff that sounds neat. I wish I had half the skills and know-how some of you possess, but it makes my head spin.
 

Sadsic

Member
Y'all crazy. I've been "producing" for like 13 years or something and I still don't know a damn thing about mixing. All I care about is composing stuff that sounds neat. I wish I had half the skills and know-how some of you possess, but it makes my head spin.

more or less how i feel except ive only been doing it since like 2007
 

deli2000

Member
Y'all crazy. I've been "producing" for like 13 years or something and I still don't know a damn thing about mixing. All I care about is composing stuff that sounds neat. I wish I had half the skills and know-how some of you possess, but it makes my head spin.

Yeah, i'm still utterly confused about oscilators and eq's and what not. I just stick to presets and samples.
 

Servbot24

Banned
what do you guys feel like is a good daw partner for ableton? i have been using reason 5 with the rewire but i wonder if there are others that people prefer
 

lil smoke

Banned
Y'all crazy. I've been "producing" for like 13 years or something and I still don't know a damn thing about mixing. All I care about is composing stuff that sounds neat. I wish I had half the skills and know-how some of you possess, but it makes my head spin.

I know a lot about mixing and stuff, but I can't produce a god damn beat to save my life LOL.

Know how means nothing.
 

DKHustlin

Member
I know a lot about mixing and stuff, but I can't produce a god damn beat to save my life LOL.

Know how means nothing.

this is how i see it i dont know a thing about mixing i just go for mking stuff that sounds catchy or nice, i say dont overtthink the mixing thing

also anyone here really use samples a lolt? id be down to listen to some of that shit or collab if anyone here also uses samples heavy
 

lil smoke

Banned
These days I guess everyone uses samples some sort of way, but I know you mean from records. I never got into it. I'm from DC and that was a NY thing growing up.
 
this is how i see it i dont know a thing about mixing i just go for mking stuff that sounds catchy or nice, i say dont overtthink the mixing thing

also anyone here really use samples a lolt? id be down to listen to some of that shit or collab if anyone here also uses samples heavy

I'm addicted to beat slicing if that counts.

more or less how i feel except ive only been doing it since like 2007

Your work is incredible. Not entirely far off from how I work. Gave you a follow.
 
what do you guys feel like is a good daw partner for ableton? i have been using reason 5 with the rewire but i wonder if there are others that people prefer

That is a pretty powerful setup already imo. Why do you want another DAW? What features are you after that Ableton and Reason can't provide?
 

Servbot24

Banned
That is a pretty powerful setup already imo. Why do you want another DAW? What features are you after that Ableton and Reason can't provide?

i don't really care either way yet, just got my midi keyboard the other day so starting again after a couple years off and wasn't sure if reason had fallen off or anything
 

Xrenity

Member
this is how i see it i dont know a thing about mixing i just go for mking stuff that sounds catchy or nice, i say dont overtthink the mixing thing
That's how I started, but catchy shit sounds better if the sound/mix is good too.

So been getting more into sound design/mixing and really it's two things I enjoy to do next to eachother. The total package makes it even more rewarding when something´s done. I'm still major amateur at it but every new song sounds a little better I think/hope. Progress is rewarding.

And it's so easy to learn about that stuff nowadays with YouTube. Just learn how stuff works while playing with it!

@Sadsic, dude your music's awesome. You know stuff but just don't think of it as such :p
 

magundah14

Neo Member
Need some feedback on both of these tracks:

https://soundcloud.com/azure-worm/lets-go-to-funnyland/s-ci2W2
https://soundcloud.com/azure-worm/drone/s-NG8Ta

I'm sending them as demos to labels. I can still change things up, so any help would really be appreciated.
Let's hope this works out :)


I've recently discovered a little trick for any fellow electro/dubstep artists:
If you wanna create a metallic lead sound with a lot of breath, try using a flanger and a band reject filter. Then, modulate the flanger's delay time and filter frequency.
Here are some examples of the sounds you can get this way:

https://soundcloud.com/azure-worm/sd1/s-Bpu7Q
https://soundcloud.com/azure-worm/jiggy-here-wip/s-IJQKM
 
Need some feedback on both of these tracks:

https://soundcloud.com/azure-worm/lets-go-to-funnyland/s-ci2W2
https://soundcloud.com/azure-worm/drone/s-NG8Ta

I'm sending them as demos to labels. I can still change things up, so any help would really be appreciated.
Let's hope this works out :)

I'll preface this by saying I'm not into this kind of music at all.

But holy shit man, nice work, especially on Drone. I didn't like the other track as much, it felt a bit busy for my tastes. But either way, solid production on both. I also like your use of guitars.

I've heard far, far worse things in the Beatport top ten.

Gonna listen to drone again.
 

Jarate

Banned
alright, so guys at my music tech class they taught protools

unfortunately, I am not only on a windows computer, but also my brother told me it's essentially trash.

are there any windows programs that are similar to pro - tools?
 

BlueSteel

Member
Name dropping Hammock got me to listen. I'll have to echo the comment on your soundcloud about having this played by live instruments, or at least realistic samples, if you can. It would sound amazing :)

Barf I knowww hahah. If you know any drummers or guitarists who would uh... like to donate their time to making this happen, please let me know :]
 
Top Bottom