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New Board Gaming |OT2| On Tables, Off Topic

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
KDM sounds like it should have just been a videogame

Haha yeah, but couldn't you say that about most board games, assuming that you're OK with interacting with a game digitally? There are a lot of unacceptable downsides of that to me though, most prominently that I find the social experience to be greatly compromised. K:DM and games like it also have amazing aesthetics and craftsmanship that you don't get in a video game. Though of course whynotboth.gif
 
Haha yeah, but couldn't you say that about most board games, assuming that you're OK with interacting with a game digitally? There are a lot of unacceptable downsides of that to me though, most prominently that I find the social experience to be greatly compromised. K:DM and games like it also have amazing aesthetics and craftsmanship that you don't get in a video game. Though of course whynotboth.gif

I think it's kind of a bell curve. Super simple things might as well be on mobile or something and super complex things often work better when a computer is handling the calculations/rule adjustments.

Couch co-op can be fine for social interaction. I generally find that social interaction tends to be lacking in really meaty, strategic games which is why I don't tend to play them very often. I prefer games where I can have a beer and get distracted without it mattering a whole lot.
 

Karkador

Banned
Haha yeah, but couldn't you say that about most board games, assuming that you're OK with interacting with a game digitally? There are a lot of unacceptable downsides of that to me though, most prominently that I find the social experience to be greatly compromised.

Most board games I've played? I can't say I've found many boardgames that require so much upkeep and math that they'd be better run by a computer....with the exception of something like Suburbia. Even then, Suburbia is trying to be an abstraction of Sim City. A faithful analog reproduction of Sim City on the table is a fantasy, but completely unfeasible, to say the least.

And you're right that board games benefit from a human factor that computers struggle to replicate.

I mean to say that the way KDM's design is described sounds like it would work better as a "Tycoon" game on my PC more so than a $100(1,000?) board game.

I take it KDM is also trying to abstract a videogame (Monster Hunter), but this is where we maybe don't see upfront how complex and dense with math a videogame really is. If people can swing that, then I guess thats their killer weekend, but "high barrier to entry" only begins to describe what that game looks like to me.


K:DM and games like it also have amazing aesthetics and craftsmanship that you don't get in a video game.

Sure they do, it's called "good graphics" :p
 

Lyng

Member
Couch co-op can be fine for social interaction. I generally find that social interaction tends to be lacking in really meaty, strategic games which is why I don't tend to play them very often. I prefer games where I can have a beer and get distracted without it mattering a whole lot.

It's just a different kind of social interaction. For example the COIN series games really do a wonderful job of putting you into the shoes of the leaders in the given conflicts, and you are forced to work together even if your goals only align partly.
And then after the game you will be discussing the story that you all ended up being a part of, and reflecting on actual historic conflicts.
 
KDM sounds like it should have just been a videogame

Why yes, it would play alot faster than the actual table top game too, which I find to be quite slow.

And it's much closer in complexity to some high end skirmish wargames, and rpg lite rule sets. I don't consider it a board game, it's more complicated system than alot of popular skirmish miniature games even.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
Most board games I've played? I can't say I've found many boardgames that require so much upkeep and math that they'd be better run by a computer....with the exception of something like Suburbia. Even then, Suburbia is trying to be an abstraction of Sim City. A faithful analog reproduction of Sim City on the table is a fantasy, but completely unfeasible, to say the least.

And you're right that board games benefit from a human factor that computers struggle to replicate.

I mean to say that the way KDM's design is described sounds like it would work better as a "Tycoon" game on my PC more so than a $100(1,000?) board game.

I take it KDM is also trying to abstract a videogame (Monster Hunter), but this is where we maybe don't see upfront how complex and dense with math a videogame really is. If people can swing that, then I guess thats their killer weekend, but "high barrier to entry" only begins to describe what that game looks like to me.




Sure they do, it's called "good graphics" :p
There is a middle ground I suppose, which is app-aided like what MoM has officially, and what several other games have on an unofficial basis. Some people get annoyed by this but personally I quite like it. Don't know if that would work with K:DM though, but I certainly don't mind less accounting if it can help me get to the fun decisions faster while still retaining a lot of the appeal of a physical game.
 

Phthisis

Member
Looks great! Academy games are really becomming a force in the introductory war game field.


I just ordered Pax Porfiriana and Pax Pamir. Have been interested for a long while, but finally bought them today when my wife said that she would love to play them.

And non-introductory field if you play Conflict of Heroes, which is a fantastic system.

Speaking of Pax, I actually just read the rules for Pax Renaissance this afternoon; the AI that powers Phil Eklund is increasingly moving outside the realm of human understanding, and I love him for it.
 
KD:M would be great as a video game adaptation, but I disagree with the idea that that's what it "should" have been in the first place.

It's frankly not THAT complex. Is it more complex than Descent? Sure. But that "same complexity level of Descent" niche is already filled by about a million games. Some people want something with a little more heft to it.

Also, you're only ever controlling (at most) 4 survivors at a time. If you're playing with other people, you're controlling even less. The bookkeeping isn't complex; I don't even think it's as bad as Shadows of Brimstone, with its need to constantly track gained XP+money+dark stone after every encounter (and its fiddly Health/Sanity tokens, which I hate in pretty much any game that includes them).

There is a middle ground I suppose, which is app-aided like what MoM has officially, and what several other games have on an unofficial basis. Some people get annoyed by this but personally I quite like it. Don't know if that would work with K:DM though, but I certainly don't mind less accounting if it can help me get to the fun decisions faster while still retaining a lot of the appeal of a physical game.

...that said, yeah, a companion app for KD:M wouldn't be a bad idea at all.
 

emag

Member
And non-introductory field if you play Conflict of Heroes, which is a fantastic system.

Speaking of Pax, I actually just read the rules for Pax Renaissance this afternoon; the AI that powers Phil Eklund is increasingly moving outside the realm of human understanding, and I love him for it.

There are a lot of little details in the Pax Ren rulebook (some of which are in error and resolved in the living rules), but the overall flow of the game is surprisingly understandable. I had hoped to bring it to the table today but we had more players attend than anticipated (no matter -- we gave Imperial 2030 another go and topped it off with a few rounds of Codenames).
 
KD:M would be great as a video game adaptation, but I disagree with the idea that that's what it "should" have been in the first place.

It's frankly not THAT complex. Is it more complex than Descent? Sure. But that "same complexity level of Descent" niche is already filled by about a million games. Some people want something with a little more heft to it.

Also, you're only ever controlling (at most) 4 survivors at a time. If you're playing with other people, you're controlling even less. The bookkeeping isn't complex; I don't even think it's as bad as Shadows of Brimstone, with its need to constantly track gained XP+money+dark stone after every encounter (and its fiddly Health/Sanity tokens, which I hate in pretty much any game that includes them).

...that said, yeah, a companion app for KD:M wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

Shadows doesn't need any of the tokens for play, they just exist in the box. Just print out a campaign character sheet and it has the spaces to write everything down, which is super simple. We've done a campaign for months now, and we haven't touched any of the tokens as you don't actually need them. FFG always also packs in a bunch of tokens in their games that have no actual use, but are meant for players to use for whatever reason or maybe for expansion purposes. So many Last Night on Earth Tokens just have no purpose, but they get packed in the games and expansions. The whole game is super streamlined compared to KD:M, not even same league. Shadows combat is almost too shallow too me.

Again I have no problem with complexity (I play far more chunky rule sets of roleplaying games and wargames), I just think KD:M is boring in the sense that it's trying to be complex, but it's not, it's just got alot of steps and rules. Like they want it to be complex and strategic game, when it just feels drawn out.

Some people like the removal of a dungeon crawl and adventure aspect of the type of game, as it's pretty much a focused boss battle. But that's often one of the biggest turn off in roleplaying games personally, is the overly long drawn out boss battles which encompass one encounter. I like to have stuff happen, surprises, exploration, constantly moving game, so what KD:M did was the opposite by just tossing you right at one big battle with a boss like encounter, then slapped on some economic building rule set to it.
 
Shadows doesn't need any of the tokens for play, they just exist in the box. Just print out a campaign character sheet and it has the spaces to write everything down, which is super simple. We've done a campaign for months now, and we haven't touched any of the tokens as you don't actually need them.

I've actually taken to using red and blue d20s to track health/sanity for the sake of simplicity.
 

EYEL1NER

Member
I missed any news about Airborne Commander actually coming out but I remember seeing the nice artwork for the cards during its Kickstarter last year. I guess the Kickstarter for the playmat wraps up in a day and there is a tier that includes the game. I took a look at some reviews and it becomes pretty easy for people after a couple plays, apparently, but it still sounds good to me. It's a solo deckbuilding game set during the D-Day Invasion where you recruit members of the 101st from a drop zone area to go out and complete objectives against the Nazi deck. I think I may back it for a copy of the game and playmat. $48 doesn't seem to bad at all and it won't cause me to hate myself like if I decide to back KD:M.
 

Lyng

Member
And non-introductory field if you play Conflict of Heroes, which is a fantastic system.

Speaking of Pax, I actually just read the rules for Pax Renaissance this afternoon; the AI that powers Phil Eklund is increasingly moving outside the realm of human understanding, and I love him for it.

Well with the way the scenarios are set up in order CoH Can also be used as a intro, especially if you are used to eurogames. And then it just gets deeper and deeper. Fantastic system indeed :)

Haha yeah when I read he was actually a rocket scientist I wasn't surprised!
 

Ohnonono

Member
I usually use the counters and tokens that come with a game for a few plays and then if they don't help gameplay or provide theme they usually get replaced with dice. Especially when playing solo I can save lots of clutter by not having 20 extra cardboard tokens piled on a card or something.
 

EYEL1NER

Member
Is Star Wars Destiny being held back from release until the new movie comes out?
I thought it was supposed to be out already but I just checked and saw that it is still listed as a pre-order at a lot of places. I guess it's a possibility that it could be a bit delayed until the film releases, since FFG's Wave 10 of X-Wing won't be out in time for the film. They want the U-Wing and TIE Striker to be out by then but I think it's a long-shot. So maybe Disney and FFG wanted to keep Destiny in reserves until Star Wars hype was at maximum levels.
 

Experien

Member
I thought it was supposed to be out already but I just checked and saw that it is still listed as a pre-order at a lot of places. I guess it's a possibility that it could be a bit delayed until the film releases, since FFG's Wave 10 of X-Wing won't be out in time for the film. They want the U-Wing and TIE Striker to be out by then but I think it's a long-shot. So maybe Disney and FFG wanted to keep Destiny in reserves until Star Wars hype was at maximum levels.

It is strange, everyone online is talking about it like it came out a month ago but then pre-orders are still going with a 4 different release dates. Makes it really discouraging from getting into it.
 

Ohnonono

Member
It is strange, everyone online is talking about it like it came out a month ago but then pre-orders are still going with a 4 different release dates. Makes it really discouraging from getting into it.

I think this is a combination of pre-release stuff being sent to outlets, events where FFG sold early stuff to people, and the fact that I am pretty sure someone dumped scans of all the cards (and thus dice,) so people can set up other ways to mess with the game early. For what it is worth I have a FLGS that always gets everything FFG releases and they have never had any yet. In the US FYI.
 
I usually use the counters and tokens that come with a game for a few plays and then if they don't help gameplay or provide theme they usually get replaced with dice. Especially when playing solo I can save lots of clutter by not having 20 extra cardboard tokens piled on a card or something.

Some games are fine, but for games like Shadows of Brimstone, you have waaayyy to much clutter. And you have tokens for stuff that are variables that rarely change, you can be holding the same tokens for multiple campaign meetings. Thankfully the character sheets they made for the game pretty much eliminate the need for alot of the tokens, frees up lot of table space.
 

nicoga3000

Saint Nic
I'm looking at the SoB KS that's about to end. I'm so on the fence because I love the game...I'm curious if they'll be able to actually deliver on time, though.
 
I'm looking at the SoB KS that's about to end. I'm so on the fence because I love the game...I'm curious if they'll be able to actually deliver on time, though.

Why bother? It will be in stores and cheaper once again before the backers get their stuff.

As for the past kickstarter, still not delivered going on 2+ years, and last update they gave us, it looks like its gonna be another 2-3 month delay on getting our stuff.
 

Keasar

Member
Speaking of Shadows of Brimstone, I've heard good things about the game and that Kickstarter might be for me considering how bloody hard the game is otherwise to get at a non-insane price (300 USD for the whole package is a steal compared to how much it might cost in stores, I'll happily take some late packages for that).

What are the opinions on that game here at GAF? I've been looking for a new RPGish co-op dungeon crawler that hopefully wouldn't require one player to be "cursed" to play as the Monsters etc. and SOB seems to fit the bill.
 

Ohnonono

Member
Speaking of Shadows of Brimstone, I've heard good things about the game and that Kickstarter might be for me considering how bloody hard the game is otherwise to get at a non-insane price (300 USD for the whole package is a steal compared to how much it might cost in stores, I'll happily take some late packages for that).

What are the opinions on that game here at GAF? I've been looking for a new RPGish co-op dungeon crawler that hopefully wouldn't require one player to be "cursed" to play as the Monsters etc. and SOB seems to fit the bill.

SoB is a huge game, requires some effort to play and keep track of everything but generally it seems pretty well liked. I personally find other dungeon crawlers fit me better because of set-up and space, but I have never actually gotten rid of SoB. I personally think between Silver Tower, Decent 2nd edition with the app, Mansions of Madness 2nd edition, and probably others I am not thinking of that I most likely wont play it again. There are lots of great options for co-op dungeon crawls now.
 

nicoga3000

Saint Nic
Speaking of Shadows of Brimstone, I've heard good things about the game and that Kickstarter might be for me considering how bloody hard the game is otherwise to get at a non-insane price (300 USD for the whole package is a steal compared to how much it might cost in stores, I'll happily take some late packages for that).

What are the opinions on that game here at GAF? I've been looking for a new RPGish co-op dungeon crawler that hopefully wouldn't require one player to be "cursed" to play as the Monsters etc. and SOB seems to fit the bill.

The game is fantastic. It's basically the original Warhammer Quest without a bunch of bullshit like "The skies open up and rain fire on your party. All of your money and equipment have been destroyed. Go directly to the next dungeon without visiting town" or "The room locks and you all die" or "A group of bandits show up and steal all of your belongings. Also, half of your party members are taken hostage, never to be seen again." Shit like that happened all the time in WHQ - and when it did, you were dead forever. Full on death is not nearly as prevalent in SoB.

The one gripe I have with SoB is that there isn't a good mission or campaign structure. You either have to make it up as you go or play the fan made Hexcrawl variant. It's also a dice fest. If you don't like rolling dice on dice on dice, you probably won't love SoB.
 
Speaking of Shadows of Brimstone, I've heard good things about the game and that Kickstarter might be for me considering how bloody hard the game is otherwise to get at a non-insane price (300 USD for the whole package is a steal compared to how much it might cost in stores, I'll happily take some late packages for that).

What are the opinions on that game here at GAF? I've been looking for a new RPGish co-op dungeon crawler that hopefully wouldn't require one player to be "cursed" to play as the Monsters etc. and SOB seems to fit the bill.

Assume you are out of the US? Game is really cheap here in the US, hence the kickstarter being kind of a rip for others.

The game is good, the "AI" is simple enough, makes it predictable to a point but it works out. Complexity is about on level of something like Descent, though it can be extremely combat heavy. Game essentially has you move into a new tile which is drawn randomly ususually, and boom, army of bad guys suddenly. Then combat can take multiple rounds of play, where another card is drawn randomly, and bam more enemies are spawning. You have alot of combat and numbers to keep track of.

The campaign aspect is one of the most unique things, its quite extensive, the bad though, is that it's super random. It's essentially rolling on one chart after another, and players are at the mercy of randomness. For example you get a mutation, you can go multiple places to get it removed, but you have to roll on a chart.... and you often have a 1 in 6 chance of simply dying.... which is really stupid in a long campaign game you invest months in. Go to town to buy something, oh no random roll.... oh you get murdered.... fun.

It's fun and frustrating... frustrating aspect comes from Flying Frog simply being sloppy. They make fun games, but often feel very loose on play testing and rule questions will be slinging left and right from ambiguous aspects...

The game is fantastic. It's basically the original Warhammer Quest without a bunch of bullshit like "The skies open up and rain fire on your party. All of your money and equipment have been destroyed. Go directly to the next dungeon without visiting town" or "The room locks and you all die" or "A group of bandits show up and steal all of your belongings. Also, half of your party members are taken hostage, never to be seen again." Shit like that happened all the time in WHQ - and when it did, you were dead forever. Full on death is not nearly as prevalent in SoB.

The one gripe I have with SoB is that there isn't a good mission or campaign structure. You either have to make it up as you go or play the fan made Hexcrawl variant. It's also a dice fest. If you don't like rolling dice on dice on dice, you probably won't love SoB.

In campaign play, death happens all the time in SoB, and is just as random at WHQ, it just happened between adventures instead of in the middle of a crawl. Been playing for 3 months a campaign now, the amount of stupid random deaths is ridiculous and worst part of the game. Random encounters and gear that can screw a player over is also ridiculous. Oh cool I got a free item in between adventure.... *draws a soul sucking parasite item which cripples my character and can't get rid of it*. One player rage quitted and started over, he was doing great, but drew an item that because of his stat block, ruined the build and made him a mental cripple, any enemy causing terror (which is alot) would instantly make him unconscious.
 

nicoga3000

Saint Nic
In campaign play, death happens all the time in SoB, and is just as random at WHQ, it just happened between adventures instead of in the middle of a crawl. Been playing for 3 months a campaign now, the amount of stupid random deaths is ridiculous and worst part of the game. Random encounters and gear that can screw a player over is also ridiculous. Oh cool I got a free item in between adventure.... *draws a soul sucking parasite item which cripples my character and can't get rid of it*. One player rage quitted and started over, he was doing great, but drew an item that because of his stat block, ruined the build and made him a mental cripple, any enemy causing terror (which is alot) would instantly make him unconscious.

I thought true "death" was super rare in SoB? And can't you heal most of that shit in the town? Or am I thinking of other things?
 
I thought true "death" was super rare in SoB? And can't you heal most of that shit in the town? Or am I thinking of other things?

In an adventure you are knocked out , so you don't die.

It's in town and in between adventure encounters, where you can die die randomly for no reason, and you can't do anything about it.

It's so stupid, you are in a mine dungeon, fighting hordes of enemies and you get a boo boo. Go to town and try to buy something, oh no random roll you die. And in town when you go get healing? You can die by a random roll while visiting a doctor to heal up some minor thing.
 
In an adventure you are knocked out , so you don't die.

It's in town and in between adventure encounters, where you can die die randomly for no reason, and you can't do anything about it.

It's so stupid, you are in a mine dungeon, fighting hordes of enemies and you get a boo boo. Go to town and try to buy something, oh no random roll you die. And in town when you go get healing? You can die by a random roll while visiting a doctor to heal up some minor thing.

It's been awhile, but I think Necromunda had something similar. Just reading your description kind of triggered me for losing half my gang in between rounds thanks to shit rolling.
 
It's been awhile, but I think Necromunda had something similar. Just reading your description kind of triggered me for losing half my gang in between rounds thanks to shit rolling.
For Necromunda, if at the end of a game a model was Out of Action (removed from the game), it had to roll a D66 on an injury table -- rolls 11-15 are out right death, 16 was multiple injuries, arm would was 23, etc. You could even get captured, have full recoveries, or even survive against all odds with a full recovery and earn extra XP. If a model was Down at the end of a game, on a roll of 1-3 it became Out of Action and had to roll on the injury table, but on a roll of 4-6 it was a full recovery and the model could still collect income and such.

Fortunately, there are no random deaths while in town. Most that could happen was sending a ganger to collecting income from a Chem Pit and rolling doubles which would cause your ganger to fall into the Chem Pit, but they manage to struggle free and are physically scarred from it and now cause Fear.
 

Keasar

Member
Hm, will have to take that into consideration, any chance they might have improved upon the game with this new Forbidden Fortress?
 

Ohnonono

Member
Hm, will have to take that into consideration, any chance they might have improved upon the game with this new Forbidden Fortress?

The one thing I really dont trust Flying Frog with is actually play testing stuff. I would expect it to be VERY similar to SoB. I would also just go in expecting to have to make some rules calls yourself.
 
The one thing I really dont trust Flying Frog with is actually play testing stuff. I would expect it to be VERY similar to SoB. I would also just go in expecting to have to make some rules calls yourself.

Yea it often feels like their games are not properly play tested. And 2 years, they haven't done any official clarifications, faqs, or answering of questions for the original SoB.
 

Ohnonono

Member
Yea it often feels like their games are not properly play tested. And 2 years, they haven't done any official clarifications, faqs, or answering of questions for the original SoB.

Added to that in my very personal opinion I just think in particular Silver Tower has enough similar gameplay stuff (rooms full of monsters, random bad stuff, rounds of combat and rolling dice,) but has improvements imo that mitigate some bullshit and make it just more fun to play for me. Also the miniature in Silver Tower are best in class and SoB CAN look good but holy crap it can take so much work. I put together lots and lots of miniatures and theirs are a pretty rough process to assemble. And if you want to expand Silver Tower they put out comparable rules for some Age of Sigmar models that make it so you can kind of pick and choose what you want.

I own so many dungeon crawlers and zombicide stuff that is so expensive. I asked for A Feast for Odin for christmas from my wife. I kind of want to see what a big budget Euro game like that gets me. It looks really fun even though it is out of my normal gaming comfort zone. I also like Vikings and the theme actually kinda fits it better than most euros I have been confronted with.
 
Yea it often feels like their games are not properly play tested. And 2 years, they haven't done any official clarifications, faqs, or answering of questions for the original SoB.

Flying Frog seems like a really small company (at least that's what it feels like when I see them at conferences). That probably explains a lot of it. I still really want to own Fortune and Glory some day because it looks like a silly sandbox game but it probably isn't very good.
 
Flying Frog seems like a really small company (at least that's what it feels like when I see them at conferences). That probably explains a lot of it. I still really want to own Fortune and Glory some day because it looks like a silly sandbox game but it probably isn't very good.

Kinda, they have huge con presence though, their gencon set ups are huge and such. It kinda feels like a small outfit that kinda blew up faster than they can handle at times, they don't even use their website anymore, it hasn't been updated in a forever.

I actually like Fortune and Glory in some modes (since it plays 3 different ways), and kinda feels like their most straightforward game.

Shadows of Brimstone is alot like One Night on Earth, where they kept putting out content for it and it kept causing rule conflicts. With Shadows it feels worse as the amount of content they made for it is staggering, and with the success of the kickstarter they just been pumping out more. Much of their rules are problems with wording, which creates confusion. They are inconsistent in how they word their rules and abilities, so it creates lot of holes and doubt in how something is intended to be played.
 

AMUSIX

Member
So I had a bit of temporary insanity last night and backed Mythic Battles: Pantheon with a pretty sizable add on...and you know what? I think I'm ok with this.

Aside from figuring out where I could possibly store it all.



Going to have to start giving some games away before the wife gets too frustrated.
 

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
Ah, OK, I think that POD was available for awhile now sadly none of my local stores carry them yet. I will probably wait and get it from Funagain once they got next expansions in.

Don't think my store got it yet at all.

Are you sleeving your cards? Can't decide if I should or not. First time getting into a card game.
 

EYEL1NER

Member
So I had a bit of temporary insanity last night and backed Mythic Battles: Pantheon with a pretty sizable add on...and you know what? I think I'm ok with this.

Aside from figuring out where I could possibly store it all.



Going to have to start giving some games away before the wife gets too frustrated.
I have checked it out once a week or so and your post made me check it again. I thought I might pledge, since I was really interested in playing the original Mythic Battles. After seeing that it will be $500 to get everything for Pantheon, I might go ahead and just pick up the original game now. I'm not one of those "I hate miniatures and always prefer standees, chits, cubes, or anything else" types but I don't particularly need a small-time skirmish game to have minis. I've just started reading the rules for Okko and think I am gonna love it, and it only has standees. A BGG user posted some really cool custom standees for the original game.
 
Don't think my store got it yet at all.

Are you sleeving your cards? Can't decide if I should or not. First time getting into a card game.

No, because there is not a whole lot of shuffling and the cards feel pretty nice. The objectives/locations etc. also doesn't need to be handle all that much so I most likely will keep them naked. I only recently sleeved games that I take to the café and MeetUp group and games that require a lot of card handling.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
I ultimately went with sleeves. You can still see the cards nicely if you use the FFG clear (silver) sleeves. Think there are valid reasons not to though. I just think I'll be playing dozens of games with these so basically I'm sleeving all encounters, and cards used in my builds.
 
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