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New Clinton postmortem of campaign includes criticism of Sanders policy promises

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royalan

Member
wow so why would hillary have said he's not a democrat and she wishes he was? like what point was she trying to get at, if your assertion is correct?

it just underlines how disingenuous that statement by hillary was. b worked closely with the dems cause thats what you need to do in politics, but his ideals, which got widespread coverage during the primary, are what has improved the dems
What? Do you know the politician you're defending?

Bernie ISN'T a Democrat. He's a registered Independent. And he DID register as Democrat to run in the primary and disrupt the party. Those aren't Hillary's words, that's straight from him. Bernie is VERY clear about why he ran.
 
I will say that while arguing and identifying which policy positions and strategies the Democrats should focus on going forward is useful, centering the electoral blame game on the personalities of Bernie and Hillary is pointless cause neither of them are ever going to run for president ever again.
 
So not wanting to die bankrupt from medical bills is a child wanting a free pony now?

Fuck off I regret voting for this piece of shit.

She championed UHC in the 90s. She championed a public option later on.

Now all of a sudden you are suggesting she never did?
 
wow so why would hillary have said he's not a democrat and she wishes he was? like what point was she trying to get at, if your assertion is correct?

it just underlines how disingenuous that statement by hillary was. b worked closely with the dems cause thats what you need to do in politics, but his ideals, which got widespread coverage during the primary, are what has improved the dems

Did you not read the actual quote because she literally says "That's not a smear, that's what he says" and then goes on to say he had a lot of good points and that she wishes he would stand up and own being a Democrat.
 
Lol, obviously exaggerated for humor, but the basic point is not that far off-base.

Bernie (and to a much larger degree, Trump) were celebrated for offering sound bites and grandiose promises. Meanwhile Clinton tried to be the adult in the room and suffered for it.

And I think it was just as dishonest to promise America a free lunch without specifying how it's going to be paid for as it is for Trump to promise coal miners he was going to bring the coal back. It takes zero political courage to tell voters you'll give them everything for free and make some unspecified evil rich person foot the bill. That's not noble or brave or anything else - it's ignoring the reality of the budget and insisting that anyone who points out the truth just hates the poor and is in the pocket of wall street.

If they want me to celebrate someone for speaking truth to power, fine, let me see them get up in front of a crowd and say, "The federal government literally doesn't have the money to come to everyone's rescue. Here's the hard reality of the situation."
 

Cranster

Banned
So not wanting to die bankrupt from medical bills is a child wanting a free pony now?

Fuck off I regret voting for this piece of shit.

tyTc1Nl.jpg
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
She championed UHC in the 90s.

Now all of a sudden you are suggesting she never did?

I'm as happy to talk about what Clinton did in the '90s as the next person, but in the 2016 primary, Clinton refused to back the public option, and Sanders had to drag out his campaign to the bitter end to get her to incorporate it into her presidential platform. Is the public option an unattainable pony?
 
This is all dumb as hell and literally contradictory of your original valid idea.

if i didn't word it properly, while in the senate bernie worked closely with democrats and functionally was a democrat. while on the campaign trail he was able to highlight the differences in ideals between himself and democrats in general, and they were well received, got positive media coverage, helped him with advancing in the primary, and ultimately forced the democratic party to adopt some of his ideals, which improved the party

is that better?

Did you not read the actual quote because she literally says "That's not a smear, that's what he says" and then goes on to say he had a lot of good points and that she wishes he would stand up and own being a Democrat.

disingenuous. he's not going to own being a democrat because he is not a democrat. he is, once again, a politician, and politicians make compromises when they must, and generally speaking that's what is entailed by working with the democratic party in the senate.
 

whitehawk

Banned
Democrat blames everyone but themselves for their failure. News at 11.

Maybe Sanders was overly optimistic, but at least he actually tried. She seems content to mostly just let things stay as they are, because "republicans will block it so why try?"
This is one excerpt from the book. I believe other parts dontalk about how she feels she let down America.
 

aeolist

Banned
What? Do you know the politician you're defending?

Bernie ISN'T a Democrat. He's a registered Independent. And he DID register as Democrat to run in the primary and disrupt the party. Those aren't Hillary's words, that's straight from him. Bernie is VERY clear about why he ran.

yes and all of that is very good

democrats needed to be disrupted and so far it's worked wonders, the party is gradually shifting to the left as it should
 
I'm as happy to talk about what Clinton did in the '90s as the next person, but in the 2016 primary, Clinton refused to back the public option, and Sanders had to drag out his campaign to the bitter end to get her to incorporate it into her presidential platform. Is the public option an unattainable pony?

Uhh... she backed the public option:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/brie...fordable-health-care-for-everyone-in-america/

Her Campaign Website said:
Third, consistent with her previous proposals on public options, Hillary will pursue efforts to give Americans in every state in the country the choice of a public-option insurance plan, and to expand Medicare by allowing people 55 years or older to opt in while protecting the traditional Medicare program.
 
You know, I would've been much more interested in a Clinton postmortem book on her failed 2008 bid. Did she publish one?

I guess this book could also be interesting, as well.


NeoGAF Post: Obama on DACA:

1 post per minute
105 views per minute

NeoGAF Post: Clinton Rehashing an Old Campagin:
4 posts per minute
167 views per minute

Think about those stats for a second

It saddens me that more people are putting their interest and effort in rehashing a campaign tainted more by Russians who hacked the election and gave us Donald Trump rather than put that time and effort into pushing progress forward.

How about we fight back instead of fight amongst ourselves?

A large part of this is because there's actually 2 sides of discussion/debate to be argued in this thread. The DACA thread, like most Trump threads, are basically everyone agreeing how horrible his administration is.
 

pigeon

Banned
if i didn't word it properly, while in the senate bernie worked closely with democrats and functionally was a democrat. while on the campaign trail he was able to highlight the differences in ideals between himself and democrats in general, and they were well received, got positive media coverage, helped him with advancing in the primary, and ultimately forced the democratic party to adopt some of his ideals, which improved the party

is that better?

There are no differences in ideals between Bernie and Democrats in general. There are differences in means they consider plausible or appropriate.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member

ApharmdX

Banned
Those are all things Hillary Clinton chose to do! She may have believed, in each case, that there were good, solid reasons. But she still needs to own the consequences of having done so.

The Democrats made a huge mistake in 2016 -- they sent up one candidate, without a real backup plan. Not to be grim, but Hillary literally collapsed during the campaign. She's old as hell. She could have died! What would we have done then? It was incumbent on them to actually have a candidate they liked running besides Hillary. Then, once it became clear that the email investigation was going to be a major problem, she should've passed the nomination off gracefully.

They own that. Hillary owns her record. Bernie can only be held responsible for himself.

Well said. I mean, this was a candidate who had a hundred self-inflicted wounds. Clinton could have maybe not had done any one of those things that you list and be president today. The cost to the American people, and the world, from this election will be high. So I'm still angry about the kind of campaign that Hillary ran, how she presented her message, and the decisions she made in the years before the 2016 race.

In my opinion, the Democratic Party will define itself and move itself forward with an engaged and focused base. That can't happen if the base is fighting amongst ourselves. These threads are not real issues that Americans are facing everyday. We should be talking about action for DACA, Medicare-For-All, equality, election reform, etc.

This is no different than the entertainment-style news questions reporters would ask Sanders where he would admonish them for creating an Us vs. Them mentality or asking questions that don't cover the real issues that everyday are a part of our lives.

We need to move on and take action on the goals we want to see enacted.

I agree with you as far as taking action on future goals, and I'd also like to see more of a focus on 2018 (critical that we take back enough of Congress to make Trump a lame duck!), but in 2020 we need to decide what kind of candidate the party puts forward. We'll see lots of candidates in the 2020 Dem primary, some from the Clinton/Obama wing and some from the Sanders wing. If we haven't learned from our mistakes in 2016 we could very well be stuck with 4 more years of Trump controlling the executive branch.
 

Crosseyes

Banned
I still think Bernie's vision was more promising and is what America needs to keep them off the path of fascism that Trump is selling.

Hillary does have a point that some of his promises were unrealistic even assuming he had a Democrat congress but we just didn't have the luxury at the time to give a more grounded vision up against Trump's populism.

Now we have a government that we need to have people running it killed just as bad as defeated politically and they hold all the power to keep moving legally towards doing it to minorities and the other most vulnerable first.

When dealing with a government where the baseball practice shooter had legitimately good ideals at heart, unrealistic promises in the name of good seems a far lesser evil than, well actual nazi evil.
 
I'm as happy to talk about what Clinton did in the '90s as the next person, but in the 2016 primary, Clinton refused to back the public option, and Sanders had to drag out his campaign to the bitter end to get her to incorporate it into her presidential platform. Is the public option an unattainable pony?

this is a flat out lie
 
yes and all of that is very good

democrats needed to be disrupted and so far it's worked wonders, the party is gradually shifting to the left as it should

You're overselling it, because not only did Bernie and Clinton lose, Democrats, including the ones Bernie has gone in support of, keep losing special elections.
 
yes and all of that is very good

democrats needed to be disrupted and so far it's worked wonders, the party is gradually shifting to the left as it should

Worked wonders, we have Trump as POTUS.

Clinton would have maintained the gradual shift that had occurred under Obama.
 

royalan

Member
Again, you've done a remarkably good job of telling me what Clinton did in the '90s and in 2008. I'm talking about 2016, where Clinton refused to back the public option and publicly criticized Sanders for doing so. Is the public option a free pony?

I messed up the link. It's fixed. The article is from February 2016.

So again. Lies. Deceit. Taylor Swift.
 
I feel like that's what we have been doing and it's obviously not working. It isn't working on the state level, it isn't working on the national level, and it isn't working on the presidential level. The vast majority of the electorate does not care to hear the message after it comes out of the democratic 'policy machine'. That is where we've been fucking up. For example we take the 'dream' of a $15 minimum wage run it through the 'policy machine' and figure out that it can only realistically be a $12.53 minimum wage. We then go and try to explain the complex reasons why to an electorate that doesn't care.

Instead promise the $15 minimum wage. Get your ass elected into office then work like hell to make it happen. When it comes back as being only $12.35 fuck it we did our best and it's progress.

We have to dumb the message down. We have to start making popular promises without running them through the machine. Back in the primaries I didn't support Bernie because he did this. Now I'm realizing that it's the reason he had such a loud and supportive base.

We've tried the rational and policy oriented path. It's boring it doesn't excite the base. It's not a winning strategy. Time to try something else.

The part of the equation your missing is that pie in the sky promises promote the concept of party purity. The GOP shot themselves in the foot with the repeal as an example. The HFC, like the far left, gets voted in based on this rigid stance. Then when 12.53 is on the table, like the HFC, the ultra left fucks up moderate progress because it's not good enough
 

kirblar

Member
I'm as happy to talk about what Clinton did in the '90s as the next person, but in the 2016 primary, Clinton refused to back the public option, and Sanders had to drag out his campaign to the bitter end to get her to incorporate it into her presidential platform. Is the public option an unattainable pony?
Alternative facts: Crab edition.

Single Payer was not supported by Clinton. The Public Option was.
 

pigeon

Banned
Well said. I mean, this was a candidate who had a hundred self-inflicted wounds. Clinton could have maybe not had done any one of those things that you list and be president today. The cost to the American people, and the world, from this election will be high. So I'm still angry about the kind of campaign that Hillary ran, how she presented her message, and the decisions she made in the years before the 2016 race.

I understand where you're coming from here, but in the end I don't fully blame Hillary. She's obviously going to be the person she is and always was. We knew she was a snake emoji before we took her in!

The fault lies with the Democratic Party in general (and individuals in the party) for not recognizing her weaknesses and the need for a credible, broadly acceptable backup plan and coming up with one. To a degree, this is probably because Hillary convinced them to go all-in on her. But it still represented what I've come to think of as the complacency of hope. They put their trust in Obama, in a generational and demographic shift, and in the inevitability of progressive victory. This was a mistake. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves.
 

Ogodei

Member
The "pony" comments are more because the diehard Berners had some among them who would rather sit out the game if they weren't going to get exactly what they wanted as a prize. There's a sense of purity testing on the hard left that simply isn't there on the hard right, which is more fear-based and will gladly vote for a non-optimal candidate like Trump because any Democrat is 1000x worse, whereas hard leftists feel that if the Democrats aren't standing for the change they want, then there is no difference between the twain.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Again, you've done a remarkably good job of telling me what Clinton did in the '90s and in 2008. I'm talking about 2016, where Clinton refused to back the public option and publicly criticized Sanders for doing so. Is the public option a free pony?

Show receipts. She criticized Medicare for all as untenable, she's supported a public option for a long time.
 
She championed UHC in the 90s. She championed a public option later on.

Now all of a sudden you are suggesting she never did?

Nothing Hillary did ever counts because Goldman Sachs, Milionayahs and Billionayahs, hot sauce, free weed, Cenk said so, Bernie is the king of birds, blah blah blah.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
this is a flat out lie

No. Again, you can look through Clinton's campaign statements, most of them are archived. Prior to the 9th of June, 2016, when she came out for a universally available public option, she was only offering to expand Medicare to the over-50s and to 'empower states to pursue the public option', which is meaningless nothings since states can already do that.
 

KHarvey16

Member
No. Again, you can look through Clinton's campaign statements, most of them are archived. Prior to the 9th of June, 2016, when she came out for a universally available public option, she was only offering to expand Medicare to the over-50s and to 'empower states to pursue the public option', which is meaningless nothings since states can already do that.

Stop confusing Medicare for all and the public option.
 
Yes because we all know that the primary spot was deemed hers to begin with. How dare someone more popular challenge her and the DNC?!

Anyways, she's just fueling Trump with this shit. She needs to stop.

how was sanders more popular when clinton vastly beat him in primary votes 🤔
 

aeolist

Banned
Show receipts. She criticized Medicare for all as untenable, she's supported a public option for a long time.

medicare for all has majority support in the american electorate and overwhelming support in the democratic base.

this is the kind of thing that leads people to believe she care more about what industries like health insurance and pharma companies want than the people voting for her. is she accountable to her base or not?
 

KHarvey16

Member
medicare for all has majority support in the american electorate and overwhelming support in the democratic base.

this is the kind of thing that leads people to believe she care more about what industries like health insurance and pharma companies want than the people voting for her. is she accountable to her base or not?

You seemingly prefer to be lied to.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
I mean, shouldn't you be criticizing Bernie Sanders too then? He lost to the person who lost to Trump!

I did criticize Sanders during the primary and continue to do so. His messaging was too single issue, being my main point. Sanders' positions on social issues were really good but Hillary articulated hers better. He also failed to raise his profile early among black voters, and ignored black voters, which cost him. On foreign policy he was just lost.

In 2020 I would like to see a candidate emerge with Sanders' focus on economic justice (also with his ability to thrill the base!), but with superior grasp of other issues. Also, younger, lol.

I understand where you're coming from here, but in the end I don't fully blame Hillary. She's obviously going to be the person she is and always was. We knew she was a snake emoji before we took her in!

The fault lies with the Democratic Party in general (and individuals in the party) for not recognizing her weaknesses and the need for a credible, broadly acceptable backup plan and coming up with one. To a degree, this is probably because Hillary convinced them to go all-in on her. But it still represented what I've come to think of as the complacency of hope. They put their trust in Obama, in a generational and demographic shift, and in the inevitability of progressive victory. This was a mistake. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves.

Well, it was ultimately the voters to blame. They elected a racist and sexist to the presidency. But Hillary's share of the blame is still high.

Agreed on the problems with the party. I know I thought, "well the demographics favor us immensely, we'll win for sure!" That isn't what happened. And lately, with the number of young whites being radicalized by the alt-right, I'm not sure that America is heading left. Certainly I'm not sure that it is inevitable.
 

aeolist

Banned
You seemingly prefer to be lied to.

i want a politician to tell me what they stand for, what they will fight for. i am an adult and understand that sometimes things don't work out, but not even trying to make good things happen ensures that they never will.
 
i want a politician to tell me what they stand for, what they will fight for. i am an adult and understand that sometimes things don't work out, but not even trying to make good things happen ensures that they never will.

Sorry bro, that isn't how it works.

If it worked like that Obama wouldn't have lied about marriage equality.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Alternative facts: Crab edition.

Single Payer was not supported by Clinton. The Public Option was.

You're not right.

For example:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/hillary-clinton-health-care-bernie-sanders-219643

A new version of Clinton's campaign website suggests she won't try to push the public option through Congress, but instead will work with governors using existing flexibility under Obamacare "to empower states to establish a public option choice." That may be a reference to a waiver program taking effect in 2017 that lets states assert greater control over their health care systems.

This is from the 22nd of February, and was the first time in the 2016 primary Clinton mentioned the issue. She does not back a federally backed public option. Her policy was to, as it says, 'empower states to establish a public option choice'. This is a meaningless policy, since they already have the power to do so and have had for decades; the reason they do not is because it would not be feasible to provide a public option that was not federally backed.

Clinton did not switch to supporting a federally backed public option until the 9th of July, 2016, after copious pressure had been placed on her.

Stop confusing Medicare for all and the public option.

I am not; see the above.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
If you're continuing to support the WWE there's no good excuse besides ignorance.

They're an organization that helped promote Trump's image during their events over several decades.

They refused to condemn Trump at all during the campaign. Now Linda McMahon is in charge of the Small Business Administration of the executive branch.

Both Linda and Vince also donated large amounts of money to Trump's sham of a charity organization.

And neither of them have bothered to criticize Trump, instead they're taking photo with him in the oval office.
T'was a joke, mon cheri. Mostly everyone in WrassleGAF hatewatches it anyway.
 

KHarvey16

Member
i want a politician to tell me what they stand for, what they will fight for. i am an adult and understand that sometimes things don't work out, but not even trying to make good things happen ensures that they never will.

She said what she stood for and why and tried to make good things happen.

If I can choose between a likely good thing or a very unlikely great thing, guess which I'd pick?
 

Cipherr

Member
Isn't this what _you_ are doing here? You're treating the electorate like children in assuming they won't grasp that republicans hold the house and whatever you promise, it won't mean a damn thing unless you win midterms in 2018 as well? Going by your argument anything beyond status quo is 'pie in the sky'...

I don't even understand what you mean here. You are acting as if Not holding the other branches of government completely nullifies you politically. It does a number on you for sure, but it does not render you completely impotent. We need only look at Obamas accomplishments despite unprecedented opposition to prove this.

You absolutely can achieve progress even without holding the other branches, just less of it. Theres also the big ass elephant in the room that is Supreme Court assignments that will guide the nation for the next few decades. A court that has leaned Conservative for a LONG time and that had a chance to finally lean the other way.... Painting that as "Status Quo" is ridiculous. There are promises and goals you can set that are progressive and realistic. You are NOT forced to sell wolf tickets. Neither of them had to. Yet both did to some degree, Bernie more than Hillary, but I don't give her a pass for her BS either.

Edit: Its also impossible not to mention the demonized status quo that people so terribly feared would be a dream come true right now as Nazi riots kill people, Travel bans have to be stopped by the Judicial Branch, LGBT discrimination finds its way back into the military, possible War with NKorea looms, and the EPA starts referencing right wing lunatic websites while attacking the media. Being so afraid of standing still that you take steps backwards is some serious, serious nonsense.


Vision versus execution. A watered down vision leads to people only guessing as to what you're about.

No.. As I said, I don't assume the electorate are children. I assume they can work this stuff out. When someone says I want 12$ minimum wage, when its currently $7.25, I assume that person (that's of voting age) is smart enough to realize that the reason we are pushing for that politically is to protect employees and keep up with inflation. I think its really weird to think that people will look at someone pushing for $12 an hour and be confused as to why I would want it, but then look at someone pushing for 15$ and completely understand why they were pursuing it. This is an extremely odd situation especially because its not the last time minimum wage will be addressed. Its by default a moving bar.

We also don't need to guess what Hillary or Bernie are about really. Both of them have such long political histories that I feel like if you don't know anything about their views, its a choice not too. Their histories and views over the decades were easy to access.


It's actually an attempt to separate them. Vision, or the end goal, or most desirable solution, whatever you want to call it, shows where you actually stand. The short term goals are merely speculation, there are too many factors. Besides, with Republicans in control, there are no short term goals. The only short term goal would be 'win mid terms'.

I dont understand classifying the short term goals and the things they make up (Party Platforms are a version of this) as being too complex and full of speculation, while claiming that your "end goal visions" for humanity as otherwise. It's actually inverted. I would like to see UBI, 80%+ penetration of electric vehicles and the end of fossil fuels hit the nation by the time I left the earth assuming I lived to be 90; but there's SO much that can happen or not happen that its really hard to gauge that stuff that's so far off.

Establishing a more liberal supreme court, cementing LGBT rights across the board (military included) and $12 an hour minimum wage nationwide is much easier to plot, and focusing on them for the short term doesn't dictate that I abandon my long term wishes either. Theres also the fact that I can't nail down what you mean by "Vision/End Goal". Just about everyone wants a Utopian world. I don't need to hear you say that on your campaign. That's just weird. Talk about imminent change and improvements, things I can expect to see you achieve while you are in office should you get there. Your visions for the country 30 years out are perhaps better placed as answers to questions in one of the debates; but the media is so incompetent that they want to talk about nonsense, so.
 

aeolist

Banned
She said what she stood for and why and tried to make good things happen.

If I can choose between a likely good thing or a very unlikely great thing, guess which I'd pick?

the part of her platform that addressed economic justice only existed because of the sanders campaign's clout at the convention, and her representatives fought it every step of the way and watered it down as much as possible.

she didn't believe in shit, and it was obvious.
 
Look at the date. This is after her public concession to Sanders. Before that, she had refused to back the public option for the under-50s. Which is exactly why I'm asking: was the public option a free pony? If yes, why did Clinton back it anyway? If no, why didn't she start off backing it?

Also from the article:

Politico said:
Clinton supported the public option in her 2008 presidential campaign

Politico said:
The Clinton campaign did not respond to requests for comment before this story first published. A spokesperson later told POLITICO that Clinton has supported the public option since the 2008 campaign.
 
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