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[Raging Spaniard]

I mean, the basic plot of BoF is fine, its just the execution that felt really poor and that can be Watanabes fault just as much as Toriyama.

It was also weird that during BoF Vegeta becomes "stronger thank Goku" (according to the plot synopsis and the movie) without actually becoming SSJ 3

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Honestly, sometimes I wish other writers wrote DB while Toriyama came up with all the fights, art, and characters.

"I want Goku to fight this guy because... give me a reason, other writer guy!"

The thing is other writers have been given a try, and we got the 13 original movies and that newest Bardock special.

Honestly, I'll take AT over any of that any day.

Especially since in the original script Beerus was going to be lizardlike and was the cause of the Saiyans turning evil until AT stepped in and changed it.

 

[Big One]

So its just bad writing then. A power that could only be achieved through a ritual can then be accessed 5 minutes later by himself.

Pretty bad.

Dragonball has had bad writing since chapter 1 brother. The entire series is made up on the fly pretty much and full of asspulls, inconsistencies, plotholes, and the like. And I'm speaking of the manga, the anime is even worse.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I feel like if Oda wrote, and Toriyama drew, they'd make some good stuff together. I mean, OnePiece isn't without its flaws, but I'd argue he's a better writer than Toriyama.

Honestly, sometimes I wish other writers wrote DB while Toriyama came up with all the fights, art, and characters.

"I want Goku to fight this guy because... give me a reason, other writer guy!"

For all the retcons, inconsistencies, asspulls, character shafting, and the fact that early dragonball is basically unreadable because the perv jokes can get REAL uncomfortable...

GODDAMN do I love Toriyama's art and paneling. Everything from the first Jackie Chun fight onwards is some of the best looking fighting I've seen in comics. The masterful use of motion blur and speedlines, the raw impact of the punches and kicks, the shading of the ki blasts, it's just so good.

 

[NeonZ]

Really? Didn't know about that part. Gotta love Toriyama retcons. So dude goes onto murdering sprees wiping out entire galaxies, gets tired and sleeps on earth. Wakes up and does the same. Dude existed since the beginning of time, so he clearly did this quite often. Never destroyed the earth in billions of years. Then in actual canon Super Boo reverts to Kid Boo (original Boo), who hesitates all about 5s before blowing the earth up. B-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l

Kid Buu isn't the "original Buu" either according to Toriyama's retcon though. Buu originally wasn't evil, but he absorbed mankind's evil during his hibernation periods, leading to the insane Kid Buu that we get in the series itself.

The thing is other writers have been given a try, and we got the 13 original movies and that newest Bardock special.

Technically, all previous 13 movies were done by a single writer. There weren't multiple teams there.

The new Bardock special, really, I don't see how it could end up much better considering the constraints. The original story were 3 manga chapters where they had to write some way for Bardock to become a SSJ. That's really not enough for a proper build up and fight, doesn't matter who they got to write it.

So its just bad writing then. A power that could only be achieved through a ritual can then be accessed 5 minutes later by himself.

Pretty bad.

Keep in mind that the previous Super Saiyan God was nowhere near Goku's level. He'd be at best around Saiyan Saga Nappa without the god boost. Like most Saiyans, he likely couldn't even sense ki. Goku was just on a completely different level. Anyway, Goku managed to sense/understand the power and tap into some of it afterwards even without the ritual, although, like shown in RoF, he's still training to master that new power. Vegeta in RoF is also going through the same training.

 

[Sheroking]

Kid Buu isn't the "original Buu" either according to Toriyama's retcon though. Buu originally wasn't evil, but he absorbed mankind's evil during his hibernation periods, leading to the insane Kid Buu that we get in the series itself.

This retcon just gets dumber and dumber,

 

[ChouGoku]

I mean, the basic plot of BoF is fine, its just the execution that felt really poor and that can be Watanabes fault just as much as Toriyama.

It was also weird that during BoF Vegeta becomes "stronger thank Goku" (according to the plot synopsis and the movie) without actually becoming SSJ 3

I mean it does kind of make sense for Vegeta, probably 1 of the 2 things he cares about gets injured and he gets much stronger. Goku goes crazy when Kuririn gets killed (granted he gives no fucks when he thinks his son is dead).

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Goku goes crazy when Kuririn gets killed (granted he gives no fucks when he thinks his son is dead).

Well he's known Krillin longer. That's how I think Toriyama would justify that

 

[Big One]

Kid Buu isn't the "original Buu" either according to Toriyama's retcon though. Buu originally wasn't evil, but he absorbed mankind's evil during his hibernation periods, leading to the insane Kid Buu that we get in the series itself.

Source? Never heard of this whatsover. Kid Boo is supposed to be Boo's purest form aka Boo without any absorbs.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

According to Toriyama, Buu's always been on Earth. He'll pop up and rampage for a bit, and then go back to sleep. It bugs me that Toriyama retconned his original origin of "Bibidi made Buu," because to me it's a bigger issue that Bibidi made a magical incantation about a creature that just pops up, does shit, and then goes back to sleep on its own.

I dunno why, but it does.

I feel like if Oda wrote, and Toriyama drew, they'd make some good stuff together. I mean, OnePiece isn't without its flaws, but I'd argue he's a better writer than Toriyama.

I don't know where you're pulling Buu always being on earth since that wasn't stated anywhere. The manga explanation still fits that he got sealed in the ball which was conveniently placed on Earth.

The only retcon was that Buu wasn't created by Bididi like the manga stated and has existed since the beginning of time .

 

[rrc1594]

Kid Buu isn't the "original Buu" either according to Toriyama's retcon though. Buu originally wasn't evil, but he absorbed mankind's evil during his hibernation periods, leading to the insane Kid Buu that we get in the series itself.

The more you know!

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Source? Never heard of this whatsover. Kid Boo is supposed to be Boo's purest form aka Boo without any absorbs.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/

the fourth question

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Dragonball has had bad writing since chapter 1 brother. The entire series is made up on the fly pretty much and full of asspulls, inconsistencies, plotholes, and the like. And I'm speaking of the manga, the anime is even worse.

I disagree on the overall. On the fly writing is not a bad thing per se, many good plots can come out of that. Many stories with super pre planned storylines are shit. For the vast majority (and Ive been reading and watching Dragon Ball since The early 90's) I think it has a great story full of awesome moments.

The movies were never good and once Gohan stopped being the main character in the middle of the Buu saga (editorial pressure, no doubt) i think the writing lost its edge, but as a whole I think the manga is a super fun romp with a good story.

 

[hamchan]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/

the fourth question

Seems to say that he was always a rampaging monster from the start.

 

[Big One]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/

the fourth question

That does not state that Kid Boo isn't the original form of Boo. It's explicitly stated in the manga and any other source that Kid Boo IS the OG Boo.

All that says is that Majin Boo's evil grows in hibernation, not that Boo is only evil because of mankind's evil.

 

[NeonZ]

All that says is that Majin Boo's evil grows in hibernation, not that Boo is only evil because of mankind's evil.

It says that he absorbed mankind's evil during the hibernation and became steadily more violent.

 

[Big One]

It says that he absorbed mankind's evil during the hibernation and became steadily more violent.

Ok? This doesn't mean that Kid Boo =/= Original Boo. Nothing in that quote suggests that. Nor does the quote suggest that Boo wasn't originally evil.

 

[ChouGoku]

Well he's known Krillin longer. That's how I think Toriyama would justify that

Loool right, he would probably say since he has trained with Kuririn more he has a deeper bond with him. I mean he was dead for most of Gohans life, he doesnt really know him lol

I disagree on the overall. On the fly writing is not a bad thing per se, many good plots can come out of that. Many stories with super pre planned storylines are shit. For the vast majority (and Ive been reading and watching Dragon Ball since The early 90's) I think it has a great story full of awesome moments.

The movies were never good and once Gohan stopped being the main character in the middle of the Buu saga (editorial pressure, no doubt) i think the writing lost its edge, but as a whole I think the manga is a super fun romp with a good story.

To be fair, Gohan has always been a terrible character, living up to his hype only 1 time

 

[NeonZ]

Ok? This doesn't mean that Kid Boo =/= Original Boo. Nothing in that quote suggests that. Nor does the quote suggest that Boo wasn't originally evil.

You're right that it doesn't say he was good at the start, my mistake. However, the Kid Buu that we saw still was tainted by mankind's evil though. So, now we basically have never seen the actual pure uncorrupted form of Buu.

Cycles of hibernation and destruction don't necessarily mean evil. That same description could be used for Beerus. And obviously there was some difference due to all that otherwise why even mentioned that it absorbed mankind's evil and became more violent?

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Technically, all previous 13 movies were done by a single writer. There weren't multiple teams there.

The new Bardock special, really, I don't see how it could end up much better considering the constraints. The original story were 3 manga chapters where they had to write some way for Bardock to become a SSJ. That's really not enough for a proper build up and fight, doesn't matter who they got to write it.

Well, there is GT too, but I didn't want to become a broken record about it but regardless different writers have been given shots at the series, and most were far worse than AT ever was. I don't really see this as a George Lucas situation which alot of people like to imply.

AT knows his work better than anyone which is why I tend to enjoy when he comes back and writes it.

Though I do admit, I wouldn't mind if someone else did the designs for some of the new transformations and characters.

 

[KHlover]

Kid Buu isn't the "original Buu" either according to Toriyama's retcon though. Buu originally wasn't evil, but he absorbed mankind's evil during his hibernation periods, leading to the insane Kid Buu that we get in the series itself.

Lmao, this retcon gets dumber the more I know about it. In Chapter 446 it's stated that it's Bibidi who brought Boo to Earth, when "humans just learned to walk upright". Which is AFTER Boo had already destroyed like half the galaxy once. At this point a rerelease of the Boo saga with updated canon might be a good idea, this is confusing as hell

 

[ChouGoku]

Lmao, this retcon gets dumber the more I know about it. In Chapter 446 it's stated that it's Bibidi who brought Boo to Earth, when "humans just learned to walk upright". Which is AFTER Boo had already destroyed like half the galaxy once. At this point a rerelease of the Boo saga with updated canon might be a good idea, this is confusing as hell

Humans did not learn to walk upright at the beginning of time tho, he had plenty of time to "turn evil" before hand

EDIT: Actually the quote says nothing about Boo not being evil at the beginning

 

[BKatastrophe]

I don't know where you're pulling Buu always being on earth since that wasn't stated anywhere. The manga explanation still fits that he got sealed in the ball which was conveniently placed on Earth.

The only retcon was that Buu wasn't created by Bididi like the manga stated and has existed since the beginning of time .

Didja read my post after that one saying I misread it and why I misread it that way?

 

[GaimeGuy]

I don't have much choice in the matter, listening to dragon ball in Japanese literally makes me physically ill. I get a headache after about 5 minutes and start getting nauseous after about 10. I've never pushed it farther.

Goku's voice is just that grating to me in Japanese (a number of the other voices don't help either... poor krillian).

But Krillin is Luffy. And Luffy is Krillin.

 

[Lulubop]

Honestly, sometimes I wish other writers wrote DB while Toriyama came up with all the fights, art, and characters.

"I want Goku to fight this guy because... give me a reason, other writer guy!"

I wanna see Urasawa's take on the Boo saga just because.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Lmao, this retcon gets dumber the more I know about it. In Chapter 446 it's stated that it's Bibidi who brought Boo to Earth, when "humans just learned to walk upright". Which is AFTER Boo had already destroyed like half the galaxy once. At this point a rerelease of the Boo saga with updated canon might be a good idea, this is confusing as hell

Like I said, toriyama can't be trusted when it comes to his old material. He legitimately forgot that SSJ2 existed, among other things

 

[NeonZ]

Lmao, this retcon gets dumber the more I know about it. In Chapter 446 it's stated that it's Bibidi who brought Boo to Earth, when "humans just learned to walk upright". Which is AFTER Boo had already destroyed like half the galaxy once. At this point a rerelease of the Boo saga with updated canon might be a good idea, this is confusing as hell

I don't think it clashes too much. He clearly thought that Bibidi had created him, which is supposed to be wrong now. So, Bibidi could have picked Buu from Earth, unleashed him in space, and then brought it back and sealed it on Earth afterwards.

Of course, if it somehow could absorb mankind's evil without even needing to be on Earth then it wouldn't need to actually originate there at all.

Like I said, toriyama can't be trusted when it comes to his old material. He legitimately forgot that SSJ2 existed, among other things

He forgot about SSJ2 after not reading the manga for years in the period he didn't write/draw anything DB related for years, and it was Toriyama himself that pointed out he had forgotten that while preparing himself for the new material. It's not like it was someone else pointing out a mistake from him.

Anyway, the new Buu stuff has nothing to do with forgetting material. It's a deliberate retcon.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/

Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Lmao, this retcon gets dumber the more I know about it. In Chapter 446 it's stated that it's Bibidi who brought Boo to Earth, when "humans just learned to walk upright". Which is AFTER Boo had already destroyed like half the galaxy once. At this point a rerelease of the Boo saga with updated canon might be a good idea, this is confusing as hell

Don't see how this contradicts anything since Saiyans and other races are technically humans too according to Dragon Ball logic.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13915

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I wanna see Urasawa's take on the Boo saga just because.

Hey, Urasawa made fucking Astro Boy a serious and dramatic story so why not

 

[Lulubop]

Hey, Urasawa made fucking Astro Boy a serious and dramatic story so why not

Exactly why

 

[Darknight]

By far.

Mario Castañeda, Laura Torres, Carlos Segundo, René García, Gerardo Reyero, Ricardo Brust, Jesús Colin (Q.E.P.D.), Rosy Aguirre, Eduardo Garza.... And many, many other MAGNIFICENT voice actors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Cpm9wHsLM

Yes sir that was awesome!

 

[KHlover]

Don't see how this contradicts anything since Saiyans and other races are technically humans too according to Dragon Ball logic.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13915

Source for his translation? "human" and "person" are the same word in Japanese and not even everyone in that threat agrees with OP's interpretation. It's definitely not something based on an official statement if what you presented is the only evidence of that logic.

 

[Blader]

I have to assume this means Buu/Uub is going to end up factoring into Super somehow. Otherwise why is he going out of his way to retcon this?

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Source for his translation? "human" and "person" are the same word in Japanese and not even everyone in that threat agrees with OP's interpretation. It's definitely not something based on an official statement if what you presented is the only evidence of that logic.

It's from Kazenshuu, and it came from Herms the same person who translated that interview that you were using.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Ew, so many misconceptions about Buu.

So, to summarize:
- Buu was not always on Earth.
- Additionally, Toriyama calls all humanoids "humans", including Earthlings, Saiyans, even mutants like Ginyu if I recall correctly. Humans specifically from Earth are called Earthlings.
- Finally, "time immemorial" doesn't mean "from the beginning of time". It's just means a very far date in the past. We always knew that Bibidi summoned Buu 5 millions years before Goku's era. That was very far in the past even before the retcon.

I don't see why people hate this retcon so much. It doesn't contradict much and is probably a setup for something in DBSuper.

 

[Kyleripman]

Nah he said May 9th. He used the word kokonoka which stands for the 9th of a month.

Weird, the dub definitely says 13th. Chalk it up to a mistake I suppose!

 

[munchie64]

I find Toriyama's writing to mainly shine through in dialogue and that's true for Battle of Gods as well.

Of course as mentioned before, his biggest strength is drawing and fight choreography. His framing is also exceptional, at times looking like a really well done storyboard. There is not a single moment where I was confused about what's going on in a Dragon Ball fight, because everything flows so smoothly from one panel to another.
This translates well to the show, and some of the best fight moments on Dragon Ball/Z come straight from the manga.

 

[manzoman96]

Well this is a thing
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2015-05-09/may-9-officially-recognized-as-goku-day/.87998

Goku Day.
But Piccolo already told us

I share my birthday with both Goku Day and Piccolo Day!

 

[Takao]

THE SAIYANS ARE A TRUE WARRIOR RACE

DON'T UNDERESTIMATE USSS!!!

brilliant
demonic
iconic

 

[Winterfang]

I mean, the basic plot of BoF is fine, its just the execution that felt really poor and that can be Watanabes fault just as much as Toriyama.

It was also weird that during BoF Vegeta becomes "stronger thank Goku" (according to the plot synopsis and the movie) without actually becoming SSJ 3

Is not that weird, it just show that Vegeta has potential when he lets it all out. As proud and stupid as Vegeta looks, in a fight his head is cloudy, he is always thinking, maybe too much.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Ew, so many misconceptions about Buu.

So, to summarize:
- Buu was not always on Earth.
- Additionally, Toriyama calls all humanoids "humans", including Earthlings, Saiyans, even mutants like Ginyu if I recall correctly. Humans specifically from Earth are called Earthlings.
- Finally, "time immemorial" doesn't mean "from the beginning of time". It's just means a very far date in the past. We always knew that Bibidi summoned Buu 5 millions years before Goku's era. That was very far in the past even before the retcon.

I don't see why people hate this retcon so much. It doesn't contradict much and is probably a setup for something in DBSuper.

I like the idea of Buu being a living weapon as opposed to a secret evil, is my thing. It's a weird thing to retcon. But also: how old is that interview? Like a year old, right? How long as DBS been in the works?

 

[I-hate-u]

brilliant

Never watched the dub, and I am glad I didn't. This is some bullshit.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Never watched the dub, and I am glad I didn't. This is some bullshit.

The Kai Dub and maybe the Buu saga are really the only English dubs worth watching.

 

[zulux21]

But Krillin is Luffy. And Luffy is Krillin.

I actually didn't know that
to be fair I haven't seen much of dbz in japanese, I just recalled krillin's voice being odd. Quite frankly even if the voice is exactly the same for the two it wouldn't feel right at all for krillin, one of the main reasons I can stand luffy is because one piece in general is a lot more cartoony and thus over the top voices aren't nearly as bothersome.

 

[Crocodile]

Is Hironobu Kageyama still singing or did he retire? Most of the new DBZ Kai openings and endings have been shitty - Toei is obviously more interested in advertising girl bands than finding "appropriate" theme songs for Dragon Ball.

For better and for worse, I'm pretty sure Drummond's Vegeta has some of the most memorable lines the character has ever spoken.

I don't know where it ranks of the "iconic" tier list but, "I've become the Prince of all Sayians once again" (though Sabat voices Vegeta at that point) still sends chills down my spine. So good <3

 

[Jigolo]

Never watched the dub, and I am glad I didn't. This is some bullshit.

What the hell.. Is that?

That definitely isn't the funi dub

 

[GaimeGuy]

So basically Kid Buu has been retconned into being some kind of cross between Janemba and a God of Destruction. He absorbs evil, sleeps, and destroys shit.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I actually didn't know that
to be fair I haven't seen much of dbz in japanese, I just recalled krillin's voice being odd. Quite frankly even if the voice is exactly the same for the two it wouldn't feel right at all for krillin, one of the main reasons I can stand luffy is because one piece in general is a lot more cartoony and thus over the top voices aren't nearly as bothersome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Bwzk1p_Xs

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

What the hell.. Is that?

That definitely isn't the funi dub

It was the Ocean dub and the first broadcast English dub of Z. Funimation eventually redubbed it with their own cast in 2005 with a script that was directly lifted from the Ocean one with some various changes.

 

[BKatastrophe]

It was the Ocean dub and the first broadcast English dub of Z. Funimation eventually redubbed it with their own cast in 2005 with a script that was directly lifted from the Ocean one with some various changes.

Harmony Gold was technically first, I think, but that was just DB and not DBZ.

I think it was, anyway. I'm feeling lazy.