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New Metroid Prime 2 Wallpaper
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Mmmmm, colorful.
Shogmaster
Member
It's just hard to take that design seriously.
They should have done more of a thorough redesign from the late 80's cartoony origin when they took her to 3D. I mean that design was meant for sprites, not polygons.
Master Chief Design is so much more suited for today than Samus. And that's not some crappy XB > GC BS, I'm just saying that the character design is much more superior for it's purpose.
Come on Nintendo. Bring your damn characters into the 21st century!
They should have done more of a thorough redesign from the late 80's cartoony origin when they took her to 3D. I mean that design was meant for sprites, not polygons.
Master Chief Design is so much more suited for today than Samus. And that's not some crappy XB > GC BS, I'm just saying that the character design is much more superior for it's purpose.
Come on Nintendo. Bring your damn characters into the 21st century!
Shogmaster said:
The Master Chief design is nothing but a generic space marine in body armor, whose biggest 'innovation' is a mirrored visor that keeps the player from seeing the model's face (which not only helps the player identify himself with the character, but also saves polys.
) The character was modelled and animated well, but don't confuse that with the actual design, which is about as bland as they come. Samus' armor, on the other hand, is quite distinctive-looking, with features like the oversized shoulders and the gun arm giving it an arresting profile in 3D.Shogmaster
Member
Tellaerin said:The Master Chief design is nothing but a generic space marine in body armor, whose biggest 'innovation' is a mirrored visor that keeps the player from seeing the model's face (which not only helps the player identify himself with the character, but also saves polys.
Design doesn't have to hit over the head to be "new". Design can be subtle yet effective and be new. Master Chief certainly fits that.
Samus is just gay. It was gay back in the 90's, and it's super gay now.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Shogmaster said:
I'd have to say that Samus' design is quite good... considering the nature of her character.. Having a bulky suit gives the feeling of a suit designed for long periods of exploring and living in hostile, unknown environments... Giving the feeling of prolonged life support and what not... I think it is very well suited for the theme of the game...And if they would have made is a little bigger I think it would have suited the game ever better... But it isn't bad the way it is now... of course this is just an opinion... but it is mine so that makes it better than yours....
Shogmaster
Member
Blackace said:I'd have to say that Samus' design is quite good... considering the nature of her character.. Having a bulky suit gives the feeling of a suit designed for long periods of exploring and living in hostile, unknown environments... Giving the feeling of prolonged life support and what not... I think it is very well suited for the theme of the game...And if they would have made is a little bigger I think it would have suited the game ever better... But it isn't bad the way it is now... of course this is just an opinion... but it is mine so that makes it better than yours....
I used the term "gay" to express myself thus my opinion is greater.
Shogmaster said:
As far as Samus goes, hey, you're entitled to your opinion, even if I don't agree (and I don't).
Making Master Chief out to be this revolutionary, cutting-edge character from a design standpoint is laughable. There isn't anything 'new' about the character visually, whether you're talking about the underlying concept or the actual design itself. He's a guy in futuristic armor. Generic futuristic armor. As far as personality and distinctiveness are concerned, the Samus design has them in spades, whereas the Master Chief design falls short in both respects. Whether or not you happen to like the way the character looks has no bearing on that.
Shogmaster
Member
Tellaerin said:
See, this is where 99% of the world's problems stem from. Assumptions.
My point wasn't MC's design being "revolutionary". You assumed that. You assumed "revolutionary" = good. Stop it.
My point was and still is, that MC is a better suited design for today's graphics than Samus.
Samus's design stemmed from the graphics of the time: low res 2D. The target resolution on screen was around 320x240. The character probably stood 30~50 pixels high. Because of that, cartoony simple design was necessary. Samus was thus designed to fit the requirements. Made simple enough to be recognizable in the low res. Even the glamour shots of her had to be simple to reflect the look in the game, so even that remained reletively cartoony anime look.
Fast forward to 2002. The target resolution is now minimum of 640x480, and even more importantly, the graphics are now 3D instead of sprites and bitmaps. You can zoom in as close as you want to the characters without clipping the camera into them. High detail is the order of the day. But poor Samus is still stuck based on the design that stems from her low res origins.
If Samus was a brand new dsign without the past, and came to you as it is now, would you speak so kindly about it? Think about that.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Shogmaster said:
I think you answered your own question... with the history you can't completely change the character..because at that point you might as well make another franchise (which is a good thing if you ask me but a different subject).. So with the franchise in tact I think her current design suits the game very nicely!
Shogmaster
Member
Blackace said:
Who's asking for complete change? How about a modern update that go beyond a coat of paint? You could keep a similar coloring scheme, but good grief, a round green cylinder for the gun arm? Spheres for the shoulders? Come on!
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Shogmaster said:
so make the gun like a rifle? I don't really understand your gripe, because any major change like her gun arm, or what not will really change the entire look of the character taking away from the history of the title... I am down for a new character in the same setting... I think that would be great... but you make a franchise on a look... And in 10 years MC will look pretty much the same...
Shogmaster said:
I already have, and the answer is a resounding yes. The basic Samus design is a good one from a design standpoint. It also fulfills an important requirement for designing characters that are intended to be viewed in 3D, namely that it provides a strong, visually-distinctive profile. Samus' armor cuts an unmistakeable figure in silhouette. The ball shoulders, the asymmetry of the gun arm, these design elements translate exceptionally well from 2D to 3D. Master Chief lacks that. The actual 2D concepting just isn't as strong, and that's always the foundation you're building a model on.
What I'd like to know is, what elements of the Samus design make it 'cartoony' to you? Looking at your most recent reply, it sounds like you're equating 'clean' (the lines of the gun arm, the shoulder armor) with 'simplistic' or 'cartoony', which I don't agree with. Clean, bold lines can be more visually striking than ones that are 'busy', and I think this is the case with Samus.
Shogmaster
Member
Blackace said:
That's just BS. You can change the design while retaining the spirit. Look at cars for instance. Corvette has changed alot through the 50+ years, but people know it's a corvette. A Ferrari is instantly recognisable as one be it the Enzo, or 250 GTO LM. It's just Nintendo being chicken shit.
ManDudeChild
Member
Anyone else notice the freakishly huge eyes?
Shogmaster
Member
Tellaerin said:
By that logic, Micky Mouse is a better design than both Samus and MC combined, eh? Look at those ears! unmistakable!
Mickey Mouse is a great character design. Not very appropreate for shooters of 2002 is my point.
There's clean and there's simplistic. I'm a big fan of clean. I try to keep things clean in my own designs (not always successful). Samus is simplistic. It's emabarrassing.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Shogmaster said:
but the two are different things... I don't think the design is outdated, I think it looks quite good. I think that they have brought Samus into the 3D world while keeping her look the same because characters don't really change that much. It happens in movies, and any other form of visual entertainment. And for cars people still like the old ones better!
Shogmaster
Member
Blackace said:but the two are different things... I don't think the design is outdated, I think it looks quite good. I think that they have brought Samus into the 3D world while keeping her look the same because characters don't really change that much. It happens in movies, and any other form of visual entertainment. And for cars people still like the old ones better!
Movies changed designs on more classic characters than Nintendo did with Samus.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Shogmaster said:
How are those two so different? (granted the new batman isn't going to look so different but his car will) Still has pretty much the same design... same looking mask, with longer pointer ears...
I just think a look of a character has to remain very close to its roots... however that is may opinion on the matter...
Shogmaster
Member
MutFox said:
I'm not talking about being original, or ripping off someone. That's what you guys do. It's all you do, like there's some prize in it. Being original isn't everything. Infact, it isn't much unless you get payed for it.
What I've been talking about is how old and outdated Samus design is for the times.
Shogmaster said:By that logic, Micky Mouse is a better design than both Samus and MC combined, eh? Look at those ears! unmistakable!
Mickey Mouse is a great character design. Not very appropreate for shooters of 2002 is my point.
What exactly is it about Master Chief that makes the design so much more 'appropriate for shooters of 2002' than Samus? The character looks like a generic futuristic soldier, some faceless guy decked out in armor that looks like Boba Fett's, minus the personality. Where's the visual 'hook' in that design? Nothing there stands out as distinctive. If that's what you consider 'appropriate for shooters of 2002', then I'll gladly take a more 'outdated' design like Samus instead, a striking one that exudes personality. Those are qualities that don't need to be 'updated for the times'.
It sounds to me like the only real 'flaw' in the current Samus design is that you personally happen to be tired of it.
It is so obviously inspired by such, though, whether you'd admit that or not.
Think for a moment, rather than raising this absurd and supposed requirement for whatever you think consistutes modernity.
MC is simple. Practical. Realistic. Much like the series, which is mostly true to life, despite being so futuristic.
Samus' design is more alien and creative. The shoulders are unnecessary, but that's simply for image. Remove them and Samus suddenly seems less powerful.
They've retained the design [since Metroid II] because it holds up very well. You've done a very poor job in explaining why its necessary to change it. Its a freaking metal suit. And you're the first I've even heard complain about it. In trying to be objective in your complaints, you've raised some very suspect and bizarre complaints. I haven't addressed everything because you've been all over the place in a handful of posts, but maybe my post can push you to express yourself better.
Shogmaster
Member
Tellaerin said:What exactly is it about Master Chief that makes the design so much more 'appropriate for shooters of 2002' than Samus? The character looks like a generic futuristic soldier, some faceless guy decked out in armor that looks like Boba Fett's, minus the personality. Where's the visual 'hook' in that design? Nothing there stands out as distinctive. If that's what you consider 'appropriate for shooters of 2002', then I'll gladly take a more 'outdated' design like Samus instead, a striking one that exudes personality. Those are qualities that don't need to be 'updated for the times'.
It sounds to me like the only real 'flaw' in the current Samus design is that you personally happen to be tired of it.
MC's design has the appropreate complexity and sophistication that fits the theme and locale of the the game. Samus is a mid 80 cartoon fighting in 2002 high detail polygonal sci-fi space shooter. If you dorks put down the nostalgia goggles, you might see this.
And don't even get me started on how non-sensical her suit is....
Shogmaster
Member
Socreges said:
Have you read all of the posts I've made?
Shogmaster said:
Besides that, how about the fact that Samus suit makes no goddamned sense! Forget the stupid ball thing, where does her right arm go in the gun? Is she an amputee? It's a stupid stupid design, no matter how you try to justify it.
TheUnknownForce
Member
Her hand and such goes into her gun. If you played Metroid Prime and used the X-Ray Visor, there it is, right in the middle of the gun. By moving her hand into different poses, Samus can change her gun's power (Plasma, Ice, etc.). Her gun does make sense. As for her shoulders, I think they are heat sinks (that's why they are not in her normal armor but in her Varia Suit, allowing her to go into excessively hot areas) that she needs to survive.
As for remaking her style, I'm sure Retro already has. She looks slightly refined from her artworks in the earlier years. Heck, just look at the Samus artwork you posted and the wallpapers posted. She has been changed. If you want a huge upgrade to look similar to MC, then I don't know. MC is a good representation of a soldier of the future, but Samus is a bounty hunter bound to ancient armor that can upgrade to do special things. Do we know if MC can do all the moves as Samus? No, but one can assume Samus' abilities require a much different suit that cadets in order to do so. Just look at the Space Federation Troops in Aether (the grey soldiers); they have different armor (somewhat like Samus and MC mixed together) from Samus.
I really can't think of what Samus could be remade into to impress today's crowd.
As for remaking her style, I'm sure Retro already has. She looks slightly refined from her artworks in the earlier years. Heck, just look at the Samus artwork you posted and the wallpapers posted. She has been changed. If you want a huge upgrade to look similar to MC, then I don't know. MC is a good representation of a soldier of the future, but Samus is a bounty hunter bound to ancient armor that can upgrade to do special things. Do we know if MC can do all the moves as Samus? No, but one can assume Samus' abilities require a much different suit that cadets in order to do so. Just look at the Space Federation Troops in Aether (the grey soldiers); they have different armor (somewhat like Samus and MC mixed together) from Samus.
I really can't think of what Samus could be remade into to impress today's crowd.
Shogmaster said:
And Master Chief is a boring, boring design, no matter how you try to justify it.
Put simply, you seem to prefer so-called 'realistic' character designs, which is why the generic military SF space marine look of Master Chief appeals to you. Samus' more fanciful, stylized appearance strikes you as 'outdated' because it doesn't hew to this realistic standard (which you somehow seem to equate with being 'modern'), and you feel the character should be redesigned accordingly.
Sorry to break this to you, but not everybody shares your obsession with pseudo-realism. Some of us go into a game prepared to suspend our disbelief, rather than quibbling over the mechanics of the morph ball transformation or how far Samus' hand extends into her cannon. Those points may make the character unappealing to you, but they have nothing to do with the supposed inappropriateness of the design for the current market.
Shogmaster
Member
Tellaerin said:
OK, forget MC. It just seems too tainted in your MS/XBox hate. Instead how about something like Gun Valkyrie design then (think Sega, not XBox..... FOCUS!!!!)? That's not boring, is it? Imaginative as well. And it's certainly a more palatable design for the times then Samus.
Shogmaster said:
*laugh!* I own a GC, an Xbox, and a PS2, and I'm quite fond of all three. I just happen to be a happy Xbox owner who's not a raving Halo fanboy, which I'm starting to think is about as common as an egg without a yolk.
From an artistic standpoint, I just felt that Halo suffered from some really lackluster design work (particularly the Chief himself), though the translation of the concepts into 3D was handled extremely well.Shogmaster said:
I'll agree that GV featured some neat design work. P.N. 03's another game I really like from a design perspective. I don't think that those characters somehow invalidate Samus, though--standing the characters side-by-side doesn't leave the Metroid Prime Samus design looking painfully dated by comparison. Samus is supposed to be a woman in a heavy, imposing-looking armored environment suit--that's the character at the concept level, and the design reflects that. It's not a function of the age of the original character design.
Shogmaster
Member
DSN2K said:
And all I tried to do was make it a Samus hate event..... :sad
Shogmaster
Member
Deg said:
In a battle, I'd rather look like MC than Samus.
Shogmaster
Member
Blackace said:
As much as we disagree about Samus, Shog, can we both agree that a signed Adam West picture rules?
West >>>>> Keaton + Kilmer + Clooney!
Red Dolphin
Member
You know the complaints over Samus being "cartoony" seem to stem from the colour scheme of her suit, not the design. I mean the Phazon suit in Metroid Prime looks awesome does it not?
FortNinety
Member
Count me in as another person who think's Samus looks nice and creative and MC as about generic as they come.
Shogmaster
Member
Red Dolphin said:
Uh.... NO.
Littleberu
Banned
*sigh* They could be arguing for days, it just doesn't go anywhere. He doesn't like Samus' suit, he want to fuck Masterchief' one in the ass, that's it.
God's Hand
Banned
Shogmaster said:
Is there any real reason why you bother living? You're free to have an opinion, as long as it's not as fucking retarded as the one about Samus / Master Chief.
Samus' design is far more pleasing to the eye. It's an example of character design that will not lose its appeal as time goes on. She's unique. Master Chief, however, looks like a carbon copy of these 3D figurines you've been able to find on "20,000 3D OBJECTS CD! for $29.95!" for years and years. In fact, when Halo was first unveiled, many people weren't sure if that Master Chief model was indeed from a "20,000 PROFESSIONAL 3D OBJECTS" compilation, or a real character design.
Now which has the better game(s) is a different story, right?
Shogmaster
Member
God's Hand said:
Shit, I guess none now since it's been questioned by someone calling himself the hand of God. *blows a kazoo*
I read that like 3 times and it still don't make no sense.
clipunderground
Member
How did I know a Halo argument would make it's way into this thread? LOL
Between Shog's use of "gay" as a derogatory adjective and this little gem:
which obviously contains the pot/kettle irony of ANYONE on a videogame forum calling someone else a dork particularly when you're arguing about the FUCKING DESIGN OF SPACE MARINES AND INTERGALACTIC BOUNTY HUNTERS, I think Shog's earned a hard fought ignore - we can still do that on the forum right?
Oh, and for the record, Samus' design kicks MC's ass.
which obviously contains the pot/kettle irony of ANYONE on a videogame forum calling someone else a dork particularly when you're arguing about the FUCKING DESIGN OF SPACE MARINES AND INTERGALACTIC BOUNTY HUNTERS, I think Shog's earned a hard fought ignore - we can still do that on the forum right?
Oh, and for the record, Samus' design kicks MC's ass.
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