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[gofreak]

This is, I'm guessing, from a recent issue of EGM, but it's online fully now (as part of a delayed online distribution program? It's on a couple of "article" sites), and is the first time I saw it. Some interesting comments in there about the next-gen systems (and written by Epic's Cliffy B, apparently).

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdegm/is_200508/ai_n14681558

“Neither side should be worried—they both have very nice machines,” says Todd Howard, executive producer of Xbox 360 role-player The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. “The PS3 has more processing power, but the memory is not as nice as the Xbox 360’s.”

Despite a statement from Microsoft claiming that the Xbox 360 is the mightiest system, it seems that Sony’s console will be the most powerful. Developers we’ve spoken with, however, are concerned that harnessing the power of all those SPE cores will be tricky and require a lot more work, especially if they lack tools and middleware to ease the workload. “Sony doesn’t have quite the same heritage of development tools as Microsoft,” says one developer. Even David Kirk, chief scientist with Sony partner Nvidia, admits that “larger studios that have a lot of technical resources where guys can create tools and train their staffs will have a real advantage over smaller studios with just five guys.”

Long story short: Each system has its strengths, and first-generation games on all three consoles will look similar. As this new generation ages, however, we expect the differences to become more pronounced, particularly when looking at PS3-exclusive games.

“I did not expect that Nintendo would come out and talk about their online strategy and say, ‘We’re committed. Every Nintendo product that we produce from here forward will be network connected,’” says Microsoft’s J Allard.

Better still, “we are doing several experiments, including working with the original Super Mario Bros., with the new technology,” says Nintendo President Satoru Iwata. “The game itself and the gameplay shall be identical, but the look will be different—it’s possible that with Revolution, we may be able to see the old games with new looks.”

No developer we spoke to thought we’d see such visuals in the first generation of games (less-sizzling graphics, such as those in Fight Night Round 3—seen on one of the TVs to the left—and Insomniac shooter I-8—also to the left—are more likely). And let’s not forget that the final machine doesn’t exist yet. “No need to panic about the PS3,” says Tecmo’s Dead or Alive mastermind Tomonobu Itagaki. “I plan to say something about it once the machine becomes real.”

Seems from the lack of replies this stuff is old - but as a non-US Member it was new to me, so hopefully it might be new to others too!

Sorry if old!

 

[Izzy]

In fact, Nintendo is pushing the Revolution’s more down-to-earth specs as the main reason smaller developers will embrace the system. “The dirty little secret of the two next-generation systems by our competitors,” says Fils-Aime, “is that to truly flesh out the technology, you’ll have to commit 100-plus-person development teams for a long time to create games. And for that middle-level developer who’s got a fantastic idea but a team of 50 folks, our system will be able to bring it to life and do it in a truly innovative way.”

 

[Kon Tiki]

is that to truly flesh out the technology, you’ll have to commit 100-plus-person development teams for a long time to create games. And for that middle-level developer who’s got a fantastic idea but a team of 50 folks,

"...they will be bought about by a big publisher, leaving us with 1st party games, again."

 

[Calidor]

“we are doing several experiments, including working with the original Super Mario Bros., with the new technology,” says Nintendo President Satoru Iwata. “The game itself and the gameplay shall be identical, but the look will be different—it’s possible that with Revolution, we may be able to see the old games with new looks.”

HOLOGRAMS!! :lol

 

[sonycowboy]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdegm/is_200508/ai_n14681558

Despite a statement from Microsoft claiming that the Xbox 360 is the mightiest system, it seems that Sony’s console will be the most powerful. Developers we’ve spoken with, however, are concerned that harnessing the power of all those SPE cores will be tricky and require a lot more work, especially if they lack tools and middleware to ease the workload. “Sony doesn’t have quite the same heritage of development tools as Microsoft,” says one developer. Even David Kirk, chief scientist with Sony partner Nvidia, admits that “larger studios that have a lot of technical resources where guys can create tools and train their staffs will have a real advantage over smaller studios with just five guys.”

Long story short: Each system has its strengths, and first-generation games on all three consoles will look similar. As this new generation ages, however, we expect the differences to become more pronounced, particularly when looking at PS3-exclusive games.

Wait a second. So, Cliffy B, the guy in charge of Gears of War, which along with PGR is one of the premier Xbox 360 titles, is saying that the PS3 is clearly the most powerful system and that the difference will be "pronounced" when looking at PS3 exclusive games?

I'm surprised this didn't cause a bit more conversation than it has.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

^^^ I mentioned it in the other thread but no one seemed to notice

http://www.new.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=57592

same article referenced in this thread, but I was more interested in the hardware commentary anyway, so I say let's keep this thread for that part of the article.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

i guess nobody wants to talk about it here either.

 

[Gahiggidy]

“we are doing several experiments, including working with the original Super Mario Bros., with the new technology,” ...hint.... says Nintendo President Satoru Iwata. “The game itself and the gameplay shall be identical, but the look will be different— ... hint, hint... it’s possible that with Revolution, we may be able to see the old games with new looks.” ...REALLY BIG HINT.

 

[Pseudo judo]

Wait a second. So, Cliffy B, the guy in charge of Gears of War, which along with PGR is one of the premier Xbox 360 titles, is saying that the PS3 is clearly the most powerful system and that the difference will be "pronounced" when looking at PS3 exclusive games?

I'm surprised this didn't cause a bit more conversation than it has.

Looking at the quote and then at the sections you had bolded, Cliffy B. says it "seems that" the PS3 is more powerful and not "clearly more powerful" as you stated, though such an oversight coming from you isn't overly surprising. He probably isn't ready to make any guarantees because, as he says in the article, ram is an issue and though PS3 appears to have more raw horse power the ram in the 360 is more efficient.

The other thing I got from the article is that only major studios who can create their own tools and the time teach their dev teams how to use them will be able to squeeze out all that extra PS3 power. How many games does that equate to in a given year? IMO you'd be lucky to see 3 such games a year and you'll probably be waiting 2 years into the console life before you see the first of such titles.

 

[sonycowboy]

Looking at the quote and then at the sections you had bolded, Cliffy B. says it "seems that" the PS3 is more powerful and not "clearly more powerful" as you stated, though such an oversight coming from you isn't overly surprising. He probably isn't ready to make any guarantees because, as he says in the article, ram is an issue and though PS3 appears to have more raw horse power the ram in the 360 is more efficient.

The other thing I got from the article is that only major studios who can create their own tools and the time teach their dev teams how to use them will be able to squeeze out all that extra PS3 power. How many games does that equate to in a given year? IMO you'd be lucky to see 3 such games a year and you'll probably be waiting 2 years into the console life before you see the first of such titles.

Do you know what pronounced difference means?

The reference to RAM was by Bethesda, which is interesing as perhaps they are talking about the unified RAM, but from many discussions here and elsewhere, I don't see what about the PS3 RAM configuration would make it any less efficient than the 360's. In fact, many consider the opposite to be true.

Or perhaps it's a reference to the 10MB embedded DRAM for the FSAA.

 

[zork007]

Where exactly is this article on EGMs site??? I cant find it.

 

[Pimpwerx]

I siad it before. PS3 will be more powerful. It seems to have bought that advantage through time. We already see it with Cell be much stronger than Xenon. RSX should be stronger than Xenos as well, although it's yet to be seen how much. It's a given, this argument should be dead by now. The difference should be noticeable, whether small or big. We haven't hit diminishing returns like that just yet. I'd say we can already see it in demos, but I'll give the 360 the benefit of the doubt and wait for PS3 games to materialize in playable form first. PEACE.

 

[Mashing]

Well I still think it'll come down the the development tools. If the X360's power can be more easily tapped than the PS3 then it could easily have games that look just as good if not surpass PS3's efforts.

 

[zork007]

I think most people are really hoping that PS3 is more powerful than the 360, but the reality is more powerful it will be marginal. Its not going to be a generation leap forward in graphics. My god they are basically coming out at the same time(360 in NOV 05 PS3 APR in Japan 06) Whats that 6 months? When did the original PS2 come out 00...then the XBOX was realeased 01 how big of difference in graphics are between the two? There is a difference but not that big..and I think that most of that is due to the increased memory of the xbox. So all you people who think the PS3 is going to blow the XBOX away graphically are delusional. :lol

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think most people are really hoping that PS3 is more powerful than the 360, but the reality is more powerful it will be marginal.

We'll see, I expect the big developers to show us the real difference between the 2 systems and I don't think its going to be marginal either.

 

[Amir0x]

Did the missing E3 Issue EGM truck reappear and finally finish delivering its load to anxious customers?

 

[Pimpwerx]

I think most people are really hoping that PS3 is more powerful than the 360, but the reality is more powerful it will be marginal. Its not going to be a generation leap forward in graphics. My god they are basically coming out at the same time(360 in NOV 05 PS3 APR in Japan 06) Whats that 6 months? When did the original PS2 come out 00...then the XBOX was realeased 01 how big of difference in graphics are between the two? There is a difference but not that big..and I think that most of that is due to the increased memory of the xbox. So all you people who think the PS3 is going to blow the XBOX away graphically are delusional. :lol

When did Xenos (R500) tape out? Has RSX taped out yet? It might not be 6-months, but it's getting there. PEACE.

 

[Wunderchu]

When did Xenos (R500) tape out?

apparently, late last year

ATI has had Xbox 360 GPU silicon back since last November

[source: http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2420&p=6 ]

 

[zork007]

We'll see, I expect the big developers to show us the real difference between the 2 systems and I don't think its going to be marginal either.

Come on SolidSnake, I cant believe you of all people really believe that the PS3 is going to be that much more powerful than the 360. Ive read your post when the XBOX first debuted..yeah you lean towards the Sony camp but you always did seem somewat informed, but your take on this is doesnt seem in step with past post.

What really makes you think that the PS3 is going to be that much more powerful...Cell oh please..When you mention that all I can think of is the great EMOTION ENGINE. Whats going to make it so much more powerful??

 

[zork007]

When did Xenos (R500) tape out? Has RSX taped out yet? It might not be 6-months, but it's getting there. PEACE.

Retail in store

 

[xexex]

I siad it before. PS3 will be more powerful. It seems to have bought that advantage through time. We already see it with Cell be much stronger than Xenon. RSX should be stronger than Xenos as well, although it's yet to be seen how much. It's a given, this argument should be dead by now. The difference should be noticeable, whether small or big. We haven't hit diminishing returns like that just yet. I'd say we can already see it in demos, but I'll give the 360 the benefit of the doubt and wait for PS3 games to materialize in playable form first. PEACE.

as you know, processing power alone does not make a console more powerful than another one. a system is only as strong as its weakest link. Xbox 360 has some key strong-points that should keep it on par with PS3, at the very least. the high-bandwidth eDRAM in Xenos is one of its strongest aspects. the PS3 has no equivalent. also, the unified shader architecture that Xenos has should keep it fairly close to RSX even if RSX has more processing power. Also, Xenos goes further beyond Shader Model 3.0 than RSX does. On the CPU side, the PS3 Cell's higher floating point advantage looks good on paper, but we'll have to wait to see if most of it, all the SPEs working together, can actually be used and show a real difference in graphics and/or gameplay in PS3 games, above and beyond what triple-core Xenon processor can do.

I think that Xbox360 - PS3 games will end up having less difference than PS2-GCN games.

 

[Chiggs]

What really makes you think that the PS3 is going to be that much more powerful...Cell oh please..When you mention that all I can think of is the great EMOTION ENGINE. Whats going to make it so much more powerful??

Perhaps you haven't heard of its unconfirmed memory boost!? :lol

Anyhow, the thing is definitely going to be more powerful than the Xbox 360; whether or not it's noticeable or not is another story. I'm leaning towards later titles... maybe....

What's funny is that when the Summer Playstation Conference was going on and Factor Five had unveiled its Slimy Dragons of the Sky game, and the video of From Software's HDR Robots was being discussed/analyzed, a lot of the Sony fans were jizzing their pants over it - these are the same people that were criticizing Gears of War and Project Gotham Racing 3. And during this, I couldn't help but to think, "what if these were Microsoft games... would the response be so positive?"

They didn't look so great to me. Heavenly Sword, on the other hand...

 

[Mrbob]

Forget about polys....which GPU can do more special effects. That is where the real winner comes out I say. Xbox 360 should more than be able to hold its own. I think Xbox 360 unified memory architecture will help out as well.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

Benefit of the doubt all the way around, but I'll trust the word of a dev like Cliffy B before I trust a random internet insider, though I wish he would have expanded more. We here only know what we have read on news reports and sites and whatever. Cliff has personally worked with/around both systems for awhile and I'd assume he regularly talks with others who have worked with/around both systems for awhile.

 

[imastalker co.]

what about system bottle necks? can anyone compare the PS3 bottle necks to the 360's? where do you think Revolution will fit in in that sense.

 

[cobragt3]

as you know, processing power alone does not make a console more powerful than another one. a system is only as strong as its weakest link. Xbox 360 has some key strong-points that should keep it on par with PS3, at the very least. the high-bandwidth eDRAM in Xenos is one of its strongest aspects. the PS3 has no equivalent. also, the unified shader architecture that Xenos has should keep it fairly close to RSX even if RSX has more processing power. Also, Xenos goes further beyond Shader Model 3.0 than RSX does. On the CPU side, the PS3 Cell's higher floating point advantage looks good on paper, but we'll have to wait to see if most of it, all the SPEs working together, can actually be used and show a real difference in graphics and/or gameplay in PS3 games, above and beyond what triple-core Xenon processor can do.

I think that Xbox360 - PS3 games will end up having less difference than PS2-GCN games.

Isn't S3.0 associated with direct X? If so why even say that since the ps3 wont even need direct X?

 

[Chiggs]

Isn't S3.0 associated with direct X? If so why even say that since the ps3 wont even need direct X?

Yeah, it's associated with it, but that doesn't mean it's exclusively Direct X. You can use pixel shaders with OpenGL, too.

 

[zork007]

Benefit of the doubt all the way around, but I'll trust the word of a dev like Cliffy B before I trust a random internet insider, though I wish he would have expanded more. We here only know what we have read on news reports and sites and whatever. Cliff has personally worked with/around both systems for awhile and I'd assume he regularly talks with others who have worked with/around both systems for awhile.

Can you show me the original article?

 

[Raven.]

I think most people are really hoping that PS3 is more powerful than the 360, but the reality is more powerful it will be marginal. Its not going to be a generation leap forward in graphics. My god they are basically coming out at the same time(360 in NOV 05 PS3 APR in Japan 06) Whats that 6 months? When did the original PS2 come out 00...then the XBOX was realeased 01 how big of difference in graphics are between the two? There is a difference but not that big..and I think that most of that is due to the increased memory of the xbox. So all you people who think the PS3 is going to blow the XBOX away graphically are delusional. :lol

Well, the fanboy reply to that would be...

[fanboy mode on] U really don't undrstanze, zeee? What u've to understand is that sony delivered a product more than 1yr before ms which wasn't so badly outclassed, and they used their own hacked attempt at a gpu at that. That is it took MS MORE THAN A YR TO SLIGHTLY EXCEED A SUPAH SONY CONSOLE, and that's while basically burning cash.

Now with a real gpu, and launching later we should expect the ps3 to be slightly inferior to a hypothetical parallel-world x360 that launched in fall 2007, that is using tech from 2007... :lol


parallel-world x360 launched in fall 2007=~ dah REAL ps3...

and

parallel-world x360 launched in fall 2007 >>> x360 launched in fall 2k5...

so we can conclude that

ps3 >> real 2k5 x360

So I hope u underztoodz it, k?
[/fanboy mode off]

PS
This is gonna be an interesting battle anyway, we'll see if unified shaders are indeed up to snuff and capable of defeating dedicated ones. The gpus have basically the same transistors to play with, r500+daughter die =~ rsx, let us see who's philosophy's right... nvidia's dedication or ati's unification?

 

[Chiggs]

The gpus have basically the same transistors to play with, r500+daughter die =~ rsx, let us see who's philosophy's right? nvidia's dedication or ati's unification?

Regardless of whether or not ATI's Xenos is faster or slower than the RSX, unified shaders are the future - for both Nvidia and ATI.

 

[Raven.]

Regardless of whether or not ATI's Xenos is faster or slower than the RSX, unified shaders are the future - for both Nvidia and ATI.

U sure?, I think the guys at nvidia said differently(but they may be bluffing cause they've no unified product announced yet.).

 

[Blimblim]

I agree that Unified Shaders are the future, but it remains to be seen if ATI moved to US at the right time or if it was a bit too early. The balance between fully unified shaders (more efficient) and vertex+pixel shaders (faster, but can be way more idle) is obviously still unknown.

 

[rastex]

Do you know what pronounced difference means?

Except he said "more pronounced" which is quite different than just "prounounced". The former refers to the differences becoming noticeable, while the latter states that they'll be significant. There's definitely a difference in degree between the two statements, and you read the quote incorrectly to give the greater difference to PS3.

 

[thorns]

The weakest link in PS3 is by far the bandwidth.. One consequence is this will be that Xenos can do AA + HDR but you won't be able to see that on PS3.

But the best thing about next-gen is that finally we're going to get rid of PS2 "style" graphics.

 

[Blimblim]

The weakest link in PS3 is by far the bandwidth.. One consequence is this will be that Xenos can do AA + HDR but you won't be able to see that on PS3.

But the best thing about next-gen is that finally we're going to get rid of PS2 "style" graphics.

It remains to be seen that FSAA is actually *really* useful in 1080p resolution, or even in 720p for that matter. I sure have a really hard time noticing jaggies while playing amped 2 in 720p on my 46" DLP.

 

[thorns]

It remains to be seen that FSAA is actually *really* useful in 1080p resolution, or even in 720p for that matter. I sure have a really hard time noticing jaggies while playing amped 2 in 720p on my 46" DLP.

FSAA is useful at any resolution but more for some types of games.. racing games for example benefit hugely from FSAA IMHO.

 

[Striek]

Good article. I find it sad that Reggie once again reaffirmed Nintendo won't be in the same league as X360/PS3.

The weakest link in PS3 is by far the bandwidth.. One consequence is this will be that Xenos can do AA + HDR but you won't be able to see that on PS3.

Bandwidth is one of PS3s most noticeable highlights (which is why you see nVidia and Epic singling it out in interviews). X360 has fairly poor system bandwidth comparitively, but the eDRAM module eliminates a great deal of bandwidth needed for AA/HDR. Its much too early to say which systems configurations is best in that regard, though obviously Sony considered eDRAM not good enough for PS3s needs.

Except he said "more pronounced" which is quite different than just "prounounced". The former refers to the differences becoming noticeable, while the latter states that they'll be significant. There's definitely a difference in degree between the two statements, and you read the quote incorrectly to give the greater difference to PS3.

More pronounced to me would imply there is a noticeable PS3 advantage from the start (although still fairly similar to X360 as stated), only becoming more and more noticeable as the generation increases. From noticeable to more noticeable implies a significant advantage.

 

[sonycowboy]

Benefit of the doubt all the way around, but I'll trust the word of a dev like Cliffy B before I trust a random internet insider, though I wish he would have expanded more. We here only know what we have read on news reports and sites and whatever. Cliff has personally worked with/around both systems for awhile and I'd assume he regularly talks with others who have worked with/around both systems for awhile.

That's what I was thinking. He certainly knows about the 360's unified shaders, the EDRAM, as well as the RSX and the CELL and he still believes the difference will be pronounced.

 

[sangreal]

:lol

the article wasn't written by Cliffy B. (Sorry to dissapoint you guys! )

There is just a highlited quote by him on the page

(The quote being "...like any other system war, each system's going to do some things better than the others." -- Epic Designer Cliff Bleszinski)

This site mashes together various seperate parts of the EGM feature, sometimes starting paragraphs midsentence.

 

[Pug]

The silence is deafening.
Look we know the basic spec of the machines, we know both machines are highly speced. Both will have fantastic looking software. The most important issue is will they both have innovative games to go with the new technology?

 

[AssMan]

“we are doing several experiments, including working with the original Super Mario Bros., with the new technology,” says Nintendo President Satoru Iwata. “The game itself and the gameplay shall be identical, but the look will be different—it’s possible that with Revolution, we may be able to see the old games with new looks.”

So wait a minute. Will the graphics/interface be innovating or what? I'm so confused, because he says the gameplay will remain the same. :lol

 

[sangreal]

So wait a minute. Will the graphics/interface be innovating or what? I'm so confused, because he says the gameplay will remain the same. :lol

You realize he is talking about an NES game, right? Why would the gameplay be different?

edit: I think I see what you're getting at. I'm pretty sure he is just talking about enhancing old games graphically though.

 

[zork007]

:lol

the article wasn't written by Cliffy B. (Sorry to dissapoint you guys! )

There is just a highlited quote by him on the page

(The quote being "...like any other system war, each system's going to do some things better than the others." -- Epic Designer Cliff Bleszinski)

This site mashes together various seperate parts of the EGM feature, sometimes starting paragraphs midsentence.

Thats what I was thinking...cuz u cant find the original article anywhere.